excuse for violence

[MrPebbles]

my apoligies if you have allready discussed this i have been away for various reasons namely broken computer and lack of time due to work

i have kept very up to date with the afghan situation but i am just wondering but have america and the uk not only started a war but they have given other counries excuses for war look at the israeli's fighting palestinians claiming they are terrorists which ok they are but thats not allowed

also surely if the west is sooo powerfull how come they bypasse dthe un in this case they usually have full un support but i see no evidence of any un involvement

[Guest]

THE PALESTINIANS R NOT TERRORSITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THE PEOPLE THINK! IS FIGHTING TO RESTORE UR STOLEN LAND CONSIDERED TERRORISM???? IF IT'S SO, WE R TERRORISTS!!!!!
CAN U TELL ME WHERE WAS ISRAEL BEFORE 1948???? IT WAS NOTHING. THEY BUILT THEIR STATE ON THE CORPSES OF THE PALESTINIANS!
FUCK ISRAEL! FUCK ISRAEL! FUCK ISRAEL! FUCK ISRAEL!

[sabre]

Well technically they are terrorists, suicide bombing malls, with INNOCENT PEOPLE in them dying. Im not saying the Palestinian struggle is wrong, its just that i think terrorism, and if it's their last resort it's still wrong anyway

[Guest]

sabre,
THERE IS NO INNOCENT PEOPLE IN ISRAEL! everyone lives in israel knows very well that he is living on a stolen land, so he should expect any reaction from the real landowners. in other words, IT'S NOT THE PALESTINIANS' FAULT THAT THE THEIVES BROUGHT THEIR WIVES AND CHILDREN WITH THEM WHILE STEALING THE PALESTINIAN LAND!!!!!!!! suicide bomgings r HEROIC actions by people who believe in a noble cause which is restoring their land. THE REAL TERRORISM IS WHAT THE ISRAELI ARMY DOES IN THE PALESTINIAN VILLAGES! THE REAL TERRORISM IS ASSASSINATING THE PALESTINIAN ACTIVISTS BY MISSILES FROM AMERICAN APACHES! THE REAL TERRORISM IS STRIKING A NINE YEARS OLD GIRL TO DAY LEAVING HER PARALYZED! THE REAL TERRORISM IS KILLING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PALESTINIANS IN
"SABRA & SHATILA CAMPS" WHOSE ONLY FAULT IS THAT THEY R PALESTINIANS! http://www.ummah.net/unity/palestine/
THE REAL TERRORISM IS THE OPENING OF AN ISRAELI EXTREMIST THE FIRE ON THE PALESTINIANS WHILE PRAYING IN " AL-HARAM AL-IBRAHIMI"! THE REAL TERRORISM IS PUTTING THE PALESTINIAN TOWNS UNDER SEIGE AND PREVENTING THE AMBULANCE FROM SAVING THE WOUNDED PEOPLE AFTER STRIKING THEIR CITIES! THE REAL TERRORISM IS SHOOTING A BOY WHO HAS ONLY A STONE IN HIS HAND TO EXPRESS THAT HE'LL NEVER SURRENDER AND THAT HE'S READY TO DIE TO RESTORE HIS STOLEN LAND! THE REAL TERRORISM IS TO KILL INNOCENT PALESTINIANS
(SOME OF THEM HAVE THE ISRAELI NATIONALITY) DURING PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATIONS! THE REAL TERRORISM IS KILLING A FEW MONTHS OLD GIRL WHILE SLEEPING PEACFULLY IN HER HOUSE! http://www.emanhejo.com
THE REAL TERRORISM IS DEMOLISHING THE HOUSES OF THE PALESTINIANS, WHO R THE REAL OWNERS OF THE LAND, TO BUILD SETTLEMENTS FOR THE ISRAELIS!
FUCK ISRAEL, FUCK ISRAEL, FUCK ISRAEL, FUCK ISRAEL

[sabre]

No need to shout, but there is a difference between killing Palestinian SOLDIERS and Israeli CIVILIANS. When you harm people that are just trying to live their lives normally around all of this turmoil, who had no part in taking the land form the Palestinians, there is no good reason to kill them at all. Thats Terrorism

[Guest]

um... many more palestinian civilians have died than Israeli civilians, especially recently. That's a fact in every news source, palestinian, israeli or otherwise. Do you read the news?

[Guest]

by the way, it's people like you who claim to be political and are just plain ignorant, that shouldn't be posting with a stalin picture. Regardless of what redeeming quality you could ever dredge up about him, you aren't to be trusted, being merely an uninformed person that has a very simple understanding of the issues and relies on you base insticts and incomplete information to figure out your viewpoints. That's dangerous for us all, you are the average american, despite you inclinations.

[Xvall]

Ignorat fool, Half the people here aren't even from America, you're the one who seems to have sucha hard time just correcting your gramatical errors in your posts. I can guarentee you that everyone here has far more superior political knowledge than you ever will. Right now you are far too angry to think straight, let alone analyze the correct facts. And I'm still not believeing that the USSR was responsible for millions of deaths until I am shown pictures, documents (Not written by Right-Wingers), confessions, or otherwise...

- Drake Dracoli

[munkey soup]

I don't think that picture is one of Stalin.

[Nateddi]

Who resurrected this thread?

[Rob]

The picture isn't Stalin; it's Zapata. And although I agree with indepence for the Palestinian people, I don't believe that the targets chosen by the suicide bombers are correct, morally or strategically. It might be better to target government or military buildings.

[James]

Its true though bout israel. They are just calling their enemies terroists so they can do what America has done.
There are terroists on both sides, but israel is acting like a supreme power. Recently they bulldozered a palastinien refugee camp.

I personal blame this whole "war against terroism"

Untill both sides stop killing in return for killings they have suffered, the situation is not goin to improve.

[Reuben]

Guest. I hate Israel too. However I do not believe that every Israeli is guilty. Many of them did not believe in zionism but went to Israel as refugees when no one elese would take them in.

Furthermore the site you are referring us is probably full of shite as it also promotes holocaust denial. Basically it is shite and Id have thought that you would have been a bit more responsible than to direct people to a site that tries to legitimize the most grotesque act of inhumanity that has ever been.

I have had this converssation with you before. I know you say that is not the Reason. However regardless of this the fact that it promotes racist lies is enough reason for yu to stop refferring people to it and not trust. It. If you think it is alright to promote this site then you lose any right to be regarded as a moral agent.

I support the right of the palestinians to violently, if necessary, resist 53 years of occupation persecustion, murder, but i do not support anti-civilian terrorism. As I said many Israelies went there as refugees and there are israelies who stay there to resit the zionist occuppation.
Victory to The Intifada,

Reuben

[Edelweiss]

Please be aware that the sites posted by the guest are full of rascism, anti-semitism and hatred. Just stupid extreme right-wing propaganda. I'll not delete them beacuse I don't want to censor here. It makes me so angry when anti-semitic fools like the guest here are using the Palestinian cause to spread their sick ideologies into the left.

[GuerillaTactics]

In this instince and in most instinces.........I must agree with comrade Reuben......... But one thing that the attacks on the civilian population of Israel have brought about is the "going to hell in a handbasket" of the economy of the zionist state................ The infurstructure and forces of occupation should be the main focus........but i can understand where attacks like this come from.......... .................. I may add that this incident was commited in an Illegal settlement that the evil zionist regime gives it's full support too......... If attacks like this keep the occupiers from moving in more settlers in order to get a more strategic hold on gaza and the west bank, then who are you to say it is wrong...............it makes people think twice about moving into an illegal settlement.......... many have left these settlements in the past 16 months...........and i am all for the illegal squatters expulsion................but seriously........what do you guys expect?????? Palestinian streets to be under seige and Israeli communities to be safe?????? You know that is not going to happen.......as long as there is occupation and attrocoties commited (not to mention the thousands of actions taken by Israel contrary to international law) on palestinian towns..........then no israeli town will know the meaning of the word saftey................simple solution...........end occupation=peace

[Guest]

Funny, besides a few capitalization errors, I would like to see where my grammatical ones are. Interestingly enough the first word of your last post is spelled incorrectly. And as far as political knowledge goes, getting defensive about the Russia does not constitute a response to what I said about your stupid statement.
You my fellow human seem to be the psuedo-political idolist whose interests can be linked to what I would consider more of a cult of personality. The next response would do well to address specific points.

[GuerillaTactics]

what in god's name are you talking about???? lost everyone on the russia reference......... oh and by the way.......next time you comment on someone's gramatical errors..........take into consideration that it my third language(assuming you were refering to me) but by the content in that post there is no telling what the hell you were talking about

[Reuben]

Guest, I agree with your opposition to Israel but you really would come across better if you won't talking shit.

Malte, I agree with you entirely

(Edited by Reuben at 12:37 am on Feb. 10, 2002)

[GuerillaTactics]

reuben i dont think that is the same guest as the one you are reffering to......is it? was he talking to you?or me? im kind of lost.....who or what was he commenting about?

[Che Jexster]

Hey just so you know, jews were in the gaza strip a few thousand years before. To answer guests question of where were they before 1948. As far as all isreali's being guilty, everyone in the world that lives anywhere is living on stolen land. If I'm correct Mohammad had quite an extensive military record. Your poltical ignorance is unbecoming of someone who seems to talk to others about not seeing history clearly. So why not start making history work for you and start fighting your real fucking enemies? (Hate, anger racism etc.).

[munkey soup]

Bravo to che jexster

[Guest]

Just because something sounds powerful doesn't mean it is, maybe you can be a speech writer. Fighting hate anger and racism is most imparitive in places where its resultant is currently death and where it is having a direct effect on peoples lives. After we get those areas taken care of we can indulge ourselves in your utopian self-help lifestyle where everyone is responsible for themselves. As for immigrating israelis, why don't you do a little checking up on the people who immigrated from Europe and see if you think they are actually related to that area of the world at all. Last time I check the geneology of eastern europe and palestine were different. About as related as the white man to the native americans as you so kindly pointed out, however, one took place 400 years ago and one is taking place today. It doesn't make today's occurance okay. That should be obvious to everyone i would think. As far as attacking military targets only goes; good luck to whoever's plan that is! Desperate times lead people to desperate measures and we can't expect to understand that internally from our homecomputers..."start making history work for me(?)" ? I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

[James]

i think it means read some books on history (or any books) so you don't make a fool of your self again.

Saying that about the stolen land (don't get me wroung i hate Israel as much as the USA) is just ignorant.

[peaccenicked]

article from net

Did Hitler or Stalin Kill More Ukrainians in World War II?


German army executing Ukrainians in Sumy region, July 1942. Both Hitler and Stalin saw the Ukrainian nation as an obstacle to their plans and goals. Hitler wanted Ukraine as German Lebensraum and Stalin feared that Ukrainian nationalism and an independent Ukraine would wreck the Soviet Russian Empire. Both were guilty of war crimes and genocide in Ukraine on such a massive scale that they are virtually unequaled in history. We are not speaking here of thousands, or tens of thousands, or even hundreds of tousands of victims of mass murder. We are talking of millions of Ukrainians killed by both Hitler and Stalin.

The great puzzle is: Did Hitler or Stalin during WW II kill the most Ukrainians? Hitler's crimes in Ukraine have been better documented and are better known. Stalin once said that history is written by the winners. As a victor, Stalin's USSR was able to hide its genocide of Ukrainians. After the war Stalin said that 7 million Soviet citizens died but we know he was concealing the true higher figures. Nikita Krushchev in 1961 set the death toll in the USSR at 20 million and this seems to be a credible and accurate statistic. Recently Moscow has quoted figures of 25 and 27 million. These new figures are either sheer propaganda or are based on new information about Stalin's genocide of Ukrainians and other Soviet citizens during the War.

No documentary evidence exists of Hitler's order to eliminate all Jews in Europe but we know this is true. Likewise, we have no Hitler order to annihilate the Ukrainians. But we do have the evidence: 1) Millions of civilian victims perished which could not be "accidental". 2) Documentary evidence of the wholesale executions of Ukrainians. 3) The order to execute up to 100 innocent Ukrainians for one German soldier shot by the partisans (and 460,000 German soldiers were killed by partisans and guerillas). 4) The Ostarbeiter Ukrainian slaves were to be "worked to death" in Germany. 5) Millions of prisoners of war were intentionally starved to death in concentration camps. 6) Ukrainian cities were starved to death according to plan. 7) Nazi leaders said that Ukraine as the Lebensraum of Nazi Germany would be colonized by German population and some Ukrainians would be used as slave labor. What about the other Ukrainians? 8) As late as 1943 Hitler refused status to Ukraine and when Ukrainians offered to form an army against the USSR it had to be named Galicia Division until the very last few minutes of the war in 1945 when it was renamed the Ukrainian National Army. 9) Ukraine's disproportionate civilian losses compared to military also indicates a special Nazi German campaign.

It would be naive to think that Adolf Hitler and the Nazi German government was not bent on destroying as many Ukrainian Untermensch as possible in view of the statements which prove it.

For example, Reichmarshal Goering, who was next to Hitler in power said: "This year between twenty and thirty million persons will die [in Ukraine and] and Russia of hunger. Perhaps it is well that it should be so, for certain nations must be decimated." -- Hermann Goering, Nov. 24-27, 1941 (Dallin p. 123).

Today all over independent Ukraine there are discoveries of mass murder graves in the suburbs of cities (such as Bykivna in Kiev), and near all the KGB (NKVD) secret police stations throughout Ukraine. The Ukrainian victims of Stalin's Soviet Russia number in the millions. Many Ukrainians are also buried in the mass graves of Siberia. It is unknown how many of these Ukrainian victims of the Soviet system perished during the war years.



(Edited by peaccenicked at 10:25 pm on Feb. 10, 2002)

[Guest]

James, my reference wasn't to you and secondly, you are mistaking me for Guest 62.241.143.216. I never used the term "stolen land" but 62.241.143 did, nor did i say anything ignorant at all really. We are two different people. I merely posted to inform someone that indeed if we are talking about civilian casualties, more Palestinians have died. If we are talking about militiary casualties, more Palestinians have also died. That fact was far more relavent in that conversation.

Btw though, I can say with confidence that I read and write quite a lot and realistically nothing I have written here really shows otherwise. As for the other non-member postings... I can't vouch for them.

[Reuben]

Guest, a few months ago they did a study which found a link bettween askenazi (east european) Jews and palestinians which was much closer and more than that which they thought existed.

Of course this does not justify in anyway legitimize the occupation, destruction and extra-judicial killing s carried out on behalf of the zionist entity.

[Guest]

Reuben, thank you for the extra info. I had heard something similiar but came to the same conclusion as you. On another positive note, save for the misunderstandings and misquotes that seem to occur occaisionally I am impressed by the type and content of conversation that this community takes part in, and though I don't necessarily agree with all of the underlying political theory of this site I am impressed to see a lot of people with strong, well argued points. If everyone in the world thought as much as most people here, the ensuing arguments would be looked upon by me as a point of progress.

YT

[Nateddi]

why don't you just register?