Possible solution to the Greek crises?

[union6]

First off I wasn't sure where to put this so please move if needed.
Second, I'm far from an economics expert or an expert on the Greek situation so feel free to blast holes in my suggestion.

I was thinking today about what would be best for Greece with the looming bailout referendum.
My idea that I came up with was this:
Greece would leave the euro currency, set up its own new currency that was controlled via the government. Have this new currency set at a straight one way exchange rate of 1 to 1 with the euro, have the government complete control over the exchange of this new currency so that all exchanged euros go directly to the government thus giving them a large reserve of euros. With there new currency they can begin to use a similar measure to quantitive easing but instead of flushing the money through the nations banks they then instead use it them selves to build up a set of nationalised industries.
As I say I'm no economics student so if this sounds laughable please enlighten me :)
Feel free to add your own suggestions or ideas.

[Mitja]

or tear down the whole state and begin as an new country! I view Greece as an oppertunity for an neo-socialistic/communistic state.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The OP has part of the solution. Grece should leave the Euro ASAP. Then default on its debt. If bankers in Grece complain, arrest them. Place all major industries under democratic public ownrship. Begin to construct a worker run socialist economy.

Problem solved!

The next problem of course will then be defending Greece from the NATO/Euro invasion force and "fifth column" elements inside Greece.

[S.Artesian]

The OP has part of the solution. Grece should leave the Euro ASAP. Then default on its debt. If bankers in Grece complain, arrest them. Place all major industries under democratic public ownrship. Begin to construct a worker run socialist economy.

Problem solved!

The next problem of course will then be defending Greece from the NATO/Euro invasion force and "fifth column" elements inside Greece.


How about:

1. Cancel the sovereign debt.

2. Workers' committees to seize control of banks, including the central bank.

3. Disperse and abolish the parliament, the executive, the judicial branches.

4. Immediate withdrawal from NATO


I mean just for starters.

[The Douche]

In addition to your solution not being a solution...

The EU is not going to allow Greece to just void out is debt and immediately create a currency with a 1/1 exchange rate to the euro.

[Ocean Seal]

The OP has part of the solution. Grece should leave the Euro ASAP. Then default on its debt. If bankers in Grece complain, arrest them. Place all major industries under democratic public ownrship. Begin to construct a worker run socialist economy.

Problem solved!

The next problem of course will then be defending Greece from the NATO/Euro invasion force and "fifth column" elements inside Greece.
Yes, this is the ideal solution, but it requires for a lot of things to happen first.

[S.Artesian]

In addition to your solution not being a solution...

The EU is not going to allow Greece to just void out is debt and immediately create a currency with a 1/1 exchange rate to the euro.

No doubt. Greece will be more than "shunned"-- its assets in other countries will be seized, or "encumbered" until courts make determinations, by holders of the debt.

No half-way solutions are possible. Drachmas will not be accepted for exchange with the dollar, euro, yuan, yen... anything. Either submission to the EU demand for poverty, or revolution.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

We may be very close to the latter option with Papandreou's call for a referendum and his "purge" of Greek military tops amid rumours of a coup.There does not seem to be a force capable of providing leadership, as far as I can tell.The KKE, Syriza, or the insurrectionary anarchists don't seem capable of playing this role. The unions are holding back the wor king class, propping up the state.Papandreou is taking a big gamble (although he probably doesn't have a choice) which may very well blow up in his face.He's calling the bluff of the Greek "left wing of capital" who might not be able to hold back the tide. Let's hope he loses his gamble.

[xub3rn00dlex]

There is the issue of the eu fearing a domino effect if greece defaults on it'e debt. If lenina's solution begins to play out, other nations could possibly follow greece's path. Perhaps this would provide an opportunity to form a defensive pact and prevent the us/nato onslaught of greece should this come to pass?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

France in May 1968 was on the vege of a socialist revulotion. Ten million workers were on strike and factory and workplace occupations were widespread. DeGaule actually went to NATO HQ in Germany and presumably would have NATO restore capitalism in France. Before this could happen the French CP and SP derailed the revolution with "parliamentary cretinism".

If Greece attempts to suceed from global capital, it will be treated far worse than the US has treated Cuba the past 40 years.The only defensive pact possible for Greece will be the international working class.

[The Douche]

I wish there was a reason to reform the international brigades, then I'd have something to do with my life...:rolleyes:

[Iron Felix]

France in May 1968 was on the vege of a socialist revulotion. Ten million workers were on strike and factory and workplace occupations were widespread. DeGaule actually went to NATO HQ in Germany and presumably would have NATO restore capitalism in France. Before this could happen the French CP and SP derailed the revolution with "parliamentary cretinism".

If Greece attempts to suceed from global capital, it will be treated far worse than the US has treated Cuba the past 40 years.The only defensive pact possible for Greece will be the international working class.
11 million workers, comrade. And how many can we muster today? Ah, the past is gone!

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I wish there was a reason to reform the international brigades, then I'd have something to do with my life...:rolleyes:

Wait a few months, maybe a few weeks.

[aneczka]

Papandreou's call for a referendum and his "purge" of Greek military tops amid rumours of a coup.

How realistic you think these rumours are? I read elsewhere this has been done to avert a coup. I dont know what to make out of it.

[S.Artesian]

How realistic you think these rumours are? I read elsewhere this has been done to avert a coup. I dont know what to make out of it.


I think the only things preventing a coup, particularly after Papandreou's stunt with the referendum, are the people in the streets, and the willingness of the people to stay in the streets.

[IndependentCitizen]

Invade France and Germany and steal the euros.

Alternatively, abolish the state Greece. Then turn around and say "Fuck knows what you're talking about"

[IndependentCitizen]

How realistic you think these rumours are? I read elsewhere this has been done to avert a coup. I dont know what to make out of it.

I think something will happen either the native military or external. I can see some European militaries intervening to "restore order" as a cloak to exploit the country. Greece has radical elements that have used violence before, I believe we'll see a return of this and military intervention as a result.

[S.Artesian]

I think something will happen either the native military or external. I can see some European militaries intervening to "restore order" as a cloak to exploit the country. Greece has radical elements that have used violence before, I believe we'll see a return of this and military intervention as a result.


I don't think any European Union government would last a minute sending troops into Greece, and besides the EU would have to act unanimously to do this-- which isn't going to happen.

Think about what would happen in France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium if they put troops on the ground in Greece to support austerity-- there would be strikes that would make 1968, or Italy's Turin strikes, or the general strikes in France in 2009 look like child's play.

As a matter of fact, I bet the EU govts are hoping the Greek military doesn't do anything, fearing the repercussions in their own countries from workers.

[tir1944]

A scenario where NATO/EU invades Greece if it defaults/if a real proletarian revolution happens there,is IMO,rather likely.

[S.Artesian]

Well, we're going to find out, because Greece is certainly going to default... and when it does the struggle will intensify... and I'm betting that the European Union countries will be so shit-scared of the strikes spreading to their own countries they won't dare move troops into Greece.

Look, Germany is the most powerful member of the EU-- you think Germany is going to try and occupy Greece given what happened in WW 2?

No way. "Domestic" military coup? No doubt that will be tried, but no invasion.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The OP has part of the solution. Grece should leave the Euro ASAP. Then default on its debt. If bankers in Grece complain, arrest them. Place all major industries under democratic public ownrship. Begin to construct a worker run socialist economy.

Problem solved!

The next problem of course will then be defending Greece from the NATO/Euro invasion force and "fifth column" elements inside Greece.

That first plank reeks of Greek nationalism to me. The banks should be seized and debts defaulted upon as Greece remains in the eurozone and the EU.


France in May 1968 was on the vege of a socialist revulotion.

No it wasn't.


Ten million workers were on strike and factory and workplace occupations were widespread. DeGaule actually went to NATO HQ in Germany and presumably would have NATO restore capitalism in France. Before this could happen the French CP and SP derailed the revolution with "parliamentary cretinism".

The wildcat strikes, workplace occupations, student demonstrations, etc. didn't pose a comprehensive political program of power.


If Greece attempts to secede from global capital, it will be treated far worse than the US has treated Cuba the past 40 years.The only defensive pact possible for Greece will be the international working class.

Indeed.

[CornetJoyce]

Well, we're going to find out, because Greece is certainly going to default... and when it does the struggle will intensify... and I'm betting that the European Union countries will be so shit-scared of the strikes spreading to their own countries they won't dare move troops into Greece.

Look, Germany is the most powerful member of the EU-- you think Germany is going to try and occupy Greece given what happened in WW 2?

No way. "Domestic" military coup? No doubt that will be tried, but no invasion.

The Greek military was mumbling about a coup early in the year, and the situation is reminiscent of 1967.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

An interesting Marxist view on a direction Greece could take. A bit long but a good read.

http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/greece-going-under/

A Greek default should be done within the context of an urgent appeal to the European working class.

My understanding is that DeGaulle anyway was scared shitless in May '68. France was very close to the tipping point and the PCF and the PS only "saved the day" by diverting the strike movement into electioneering.

As S. Artesian said a NATO/Euro military invasion isn't likely. The situation is bound to change dramatically soon but I'm not sure how.

[RED DAVE]

France in May 1968 was on the vege of a socialist revulotion.
No it wasn't.
Ten million workers were on strike and factory and workplace occupations were widespread. DeGaule actually went to NATO HQ in Germany and presumably would have NATO restore capitalism in France. Before this could happen the French CP and SP derailed the revolution with "parliamentary cretinism".
The wildcat strikes, workplace occupations, student demonstrations, etc. didn't pose a comprehensive political program of power.Fabulous: the essence of revolution is "a comprehensive political program of power." Never mind the fact that the workers were in occupying the major factories of the country. They didn't have "a comprehensive political program of power," presumably written for them by the leadership of a party-movement.

Bullshit. What was needed was revolutionary leadership. Had either the CP or the SP called for the workers to take power, established "committees of public safety," etc., in the face of the paralysis of the government (including the paralysis of the army), the revolution would have been on!

Once again we see, DNZ, that your concept of revolution is top-down and bureaucratic and has nothing to do with workers power.

RED DAVE

[R_P_A_S]

I need to read how Greece got to where is at now..

[Die Neue Zeit]

An interesting Marxist view on a direction Greece could take. A bit long but a good read.

http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/greece-going-under/

A Greek default should be done within the context of an urgent appeal to the European working class.

My understanding is that DeGaulle anyway was scared shitless in May '68. France was very close to the tipping point and the PCF and the PS only "saved the day" by diverting the strike movement into electioneering.

As S. Artesian said a NATO/Euro military invasion isn't likely. The situation is bound to change dramatically soon but I'm not sure how.

How about a Europe-wide sovereign state default? Better yet, how about a Europe-wide Jubilee? (http://reality.gn.apc.org/econ/Berlinpaper.pdf)

That DeDaulle and his regime were "scared shitless" doesn't necessarily mean there was a revolutionary period for the working class. Just look at the Arab Spring. Without the ortho-Marxist definition of a revolutionary period for the working class, the best that could have been achieved was mere regime change.


They didn't have "a comprehensive political program of power," presumably written for them by the leadership of a party-movement.

Bullshit. What was needed was revolutionary leadership.

Trotskyist reductionism rears its ugly head again. What was needed was more than mere "revolutionary leadership," and well before 1968, to get past what was way more than a mere "crisis of leadership."


Had either the CP or the SP called for the workers to take power, established "committees of public safety," etc., in the face of the paralysis of the government (including the paralysis of the army), the revolution would have been on!

Once again we see, DNZ, that your concept of revolution is top-down and bureaucratic and has nothing to do with workers power.

What was needed was a massive party-movement with workers institutions and majority political support such that "committees of public safety" would not have been necessary to seize power. And yes, that means mastering bureaucracy-as-process.

[A Marxist Historian]

An interesting Marxist view on a direction Greece could take. A bit long but a good read.

http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/greece-going-under/

A Greek default should be done within the context of an urgent appeal to the European working class.

My understanding is that DeGaulle anyway was scared shitless in May '68. France was very close to the tipping point and the PCF and the PS only "saved the day" by diverting the strike movement into electioneering.

As S. Artesian said a NATO/Euro military invasion isn't likely. The situation is bound to change dramatically soon but I'm not sure how.

Someone in the vast multithread on Oct. 20, I forget who, said there were rumors running around about a Papandreou/KKE coalition government.

I think that would be logical. The military is not up for a coup, the EU is not up for sending troops in, and the domestic fascists in Greece, Golden Dawn and so forth, well, their time has not come.

And a government of the right would be in no better situation than Papandreou to push all this knife to the throat ultra-austerity crap through. Worse in fact.

So bringing in the KKE, now that they have demonstrated in blood their basic loyalty to Greek capitalism, is the logical move. They've been in government before after all.

I think the referendum is the perfect backdrop. Papandreou loses, and says well, we have to renegotiate the debt, the Greek people give me no choice, and I'm changing my policy and listening to the masses.

And they get together with the bankers to sell some sort of semi-workable debt reduction with the Greek working class still paying thru the nose, though maybe not in quite as deadly fashion as right now, and the KKE gets to sell it to the workers.

-M.H.-

[Jose Gracchus]

And the ye olde 'anti-revisionist' Stalinists get to trot out the Popular Front to smother revolution, one more time. First as tragedy, second as farce.

[RedSide]

There wont be a rederendum. If you still believe that the bourgeois parties will risk Greece's european "future" and that EU will let greeks create a domino effect, you are probably delusional. There will be a PASOK/ND/LAOS government for a few months in order to vote the 26/10 agreement and then have elections, or papandreou will resignn and have elections really soon (3 weeks).

By the way there are rumours that Papariga is an alien and she eats proletarians for breakfast:lol::D

[IndependentCitizen]

I don't think any European Union government would last a minute sending troops into Greece, and besides the EU would have to act unanimously to do this-- which isn't going to happen.

Think about what would happen in France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium if they put troops on the ground in Greece to support austerity-- there would be strikes that would make 1968, or Italy's Turin strikes, or the general strikes in France in 2009 look like child's play.

As a matter of fact, I bet the EU govts are hoping the Greek military doesn't do anything, fearing the repercussions in their own countries from workers.

The European Union has organisations to handle internal problems, all they have to do is make up an excuse to go in and "restore order". We saw this with deployments in Iraq. Saddam Hussien didn't want to be NATO's lap-dog anymore, after the West supplied Iraq with millions of dollars worth of military aid, they wanted something in return. He said no, boom Iraq invasion.

It would be stupid not to think governments won't go to extremes to reclaim what they see is their's. In regards to 1968 situation, yes - a true outcome, however, governments are experts at resource allocation, they will be able to be deployed all over Europe.

I personally believe if Greece has a socialist revolution, the military will be sent in.

[A Marxist Historian]

There wont be a rederendum. If you still believe that the bourgeois parties will risk Greece's european "future" and that EU will let greeks create a domino effect, you are probably delusional. There will be a PASOK/ND/LAOS government for a few months in order to vote the 26/10 agreement and then have elections, or papandreou will resignn and have elections really soon (3 weeks).

By the way there are rumours that Papariga is an alien and she eats proletarians for breakfast:lol::D

Yeah, now it's all clear. It was a maneuver to get the right wing parties to drop their opposition to the debt deal by creating the specter of it actually being rejected.

And it worked. Coalition government all right, but not with the KKE, not yet anyway.

Now it won't be just PASOK discrediting itself, but all the bourgeois parties. But, on the other hand, this means there will be a clear parliamentary majority, and no chance whatsoever of opposing any of this in parliament.

So it truly becomes revolution or surrender at this point. Anything short of that is a waste of time.

-M.H.-

[RED DAVE]

My understanding is that DeGaulle anyway was scared shitless in May '68. France was very close to the tipping point and the PCF and the PS only "saved the day" by diverting the strike movement into electioneering.Precisely.


That DeDaulle and his regime were "scared shitless" doesn't necessarily mean there was a revolutionary period for the working class.What would you call May-June '68 then? A stroll in the Luxemburg Gardens?


Just look at the Arab Spring. Without the ortho-Marxist definition of a revolutionary period for the working class, the best that could have been achieved was mere regime change.I'm not going to get into a discussion of the role of the working class in the Arab Spring, but the comparison to France is completely inapt. (Watch to see if DNZ will divert this discussion to one of the comparison of the Arab Spring and May-June. This is his usual debating tactic.)


They didn't have "a comprehensive political program of power," presumably written for them by the leadership of a party-movement.

Bullshit. What was needed was revolutionary leadership.
Trotskyist reductionism rears its ugly head again.Your ignorance of Trotskyism is only matched by the staleness of your metaphors.


What was needed was more than mere "revolutionary leadership,"You're sure about that? Because I wrote a book on May-June, did a shit-load of research, and there was a point where the Communists and Socialists could have opted for a revolutonary government. But they punked out and called for everything but.


and well before 1968, to get past what was way more than a mere "crisis of leadership."Frankly, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Considering that the social democratic and stalinists traditions, to which you are loyal, haven't engaged in any revolutionary activity since Huck was a pup, what would you know about revolutionary leadership?


Had either the CP or the SP called for the workers to take power, established "committees of public safety," etc., in the face of the paralysis of the government (including the paralysis of the army), the revolution would have been on!

Once again we see, DNZ, that your concept of revolution is top-down and bureaucratic and has nothing to do with workers power.
What was needed was a massive party-movementActually, the French CP and SP were pretty much massive party-movements. What you are talking about, with the model borrowed from the German SPD, is a stultifying social democarcy that channels workers revolutionary impulses into everything but revolution.


with workers institutions and majority political support such that "committees of public safety" would not have been necessary to seize power.What you are saying is the the working class can build institutions under capitalism to seize power. This is social democracy. Those institutions actually are a break in power.


And yes, that means mastering bureaucracy-as-process.Nothing shows your anti-working class bias more than your love of bureaucracy

RED DAVE

[Os Cangaceiros]

Didn't De Gaulle travel to Germany (29th-30th of May, 1968) to discuss the possibility with military leaders that they may have to act to end a possible revolution in France? That sounds like a revolutionary situation to me.

[Rainsborough]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15614883

So as AMH put it a few posts back,

"So it truly becomes revolution or surrender at this point. Anything short of that is a waste of time."

To add to that comment, anything short of that is no longer an option.