Log in

View Full Version : The Socialist Calculation Debates: why socialism succumbs to liberalism/‘imperialism’



free radical
31st October 2011, 21:19
.



The economic calculation problem is a criticism of central economic planning. It was first proposed by Ludwig von Mises in 1920 and later expounded by Friedrich Hayek. The problem referred to is that of how to distribute resources rationally in an economy. The free market solution is the price mechanism, wherein people individually have the ability to decide how a good or service should be distributed based on their willingness to give money for it. The price conveys embedded information about the abundance of resources as well as their desirability which in turn allows, on the basis of individual consensual decisions, corrections that prevent shortages and surpluses; Mises and Hayek argued that this is the only possible solution, and without the information provided by market prices socialism lacks a method to rationally allocate resources. Those who agree with this criticism argue it is a refutation of non-market socialism and that it shows that a socialist planned economy could never work. The debate raged in the 1920s and 1930s, and that specific period of the debate has come to be known by economic historians as The Socialist Calculation Debate. (...)


--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem





The anarcho-capitalist economist Hans-Hermann Hoppe argues that, in the absence of prices for the means of production, there is no cost-accounting which would direct labor and resources to the most valuable uses.[9] Hungarian economist Janos Kornai has written that "the attempt to realize market socialism ... produces an incoherent system, in which there are elements that repel each other: the dominance of public ownership and the operation of the market are not compatible."[10]

Proponents of capitalism argue that although private monopolies don't have any actual competition, there are many potential competitors watching them, and if they were delivering inadequate service, or charging an excessive amount for a good or service, investors would start a competing enterprise.[11][12]

In her book How We Survived Communism & Even Laughed, Slavenka Drakulić claims that a major contributor to the fall of socialist planned economies in the former Soviet bloc was the failure to produce the basic consumer goods that its people desired. She argues that, because of the makeup of the leadership of these regimes, the concerns of women got particularly short shrift. She illustrates this, in particular, by the system's failure to produce washing machines. If a state-owned industry is able to keep operating with losses, it may continue operating indefinitely producing things that are not in high consumer demand. If consumer demand is too low to sustain the industry with voluntary payments by consumers then it is tax-subsidized. This prevents resources (capital and labor) from being applied to satisfying more urgent consumer demands. According to economist Milton Friedman "The loss part is just as important as the profit part. What distinguishes the private system from a government socialist system is the loss part. If an entrepreneur's project doesn't work, he closes it down. If it had been a government project, it would have been expanded, because there is not the discipline of the profit and loss element."[14]

Proponents of chaos theory argue that it is impossible to make accurate long-term predictions for highly complex systems such as an economy.[15]
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon raises similar calculational issues in his General Idea of the Revolution in the 19th Century but also proposes certain voluntary arrangements, which would also require economic calculation.[16]

Leon Trotsky, a proponent of decentralized planning, argued that centralized economic planning would be "insoluble without the daily experience of millions, without their critical review of their own collective experience, without their expression of their needs and demands and could not be carried out within the confines of the official sanctums", and "Even if the Politburo consisted of seven universal geniuses, of seven Marxes, or seven Lenins, it will still be unable, all on its own, with all its creative imagination, to assert command over the economy of 170 million people."[17]


--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_socialism

Azraella
31st October 2011, 23:04
"the attempt to realize market socialism ... produces an incoherent system, in which there are elements that repel each other: the dominance of public ownership and the operation of the market are not compatible."


Most of the people on this board are communists... which has nothing to do with market socialism... some of us might favor temporary measures to make capitalism better, but that doesn't mean that market socialism is our goal.



Proponents of capitalism argue that although private monopolies don't have any actual competition, there are many potential competitors watching them, and if they were delivering inadequate service, or charging an excessive amount for a good or service, investors would start a competing enterprise.


There are going to be people that will defend capitalists by claiming they are an inventor, a risk taker, an innovator, or an organizer.

In the real world, capital begets more wealth. The capitalist is the one who owns the means of production. He is an investor: someone who owns stocks, bonds, derivatives, real estate, etc. Since he already is wealthy, the personal risk he takes is very minimal. He doesn't have to invent anything. He doesn't have to manage anything. The stockholders in a corporation vote to appoint a board, who hire managers to decide how the company is run.

Capitalists tend to get capital by inheriting it and then leveraging it, by exploiting workers, to make more capital. There is very little economic mobility in the USA. Most "self-made-men" were really small capitalists that became bigger capitalists.

Now a capitalist could choose to work as an executive, or an artist, or a philanthropist, or a clown or a lazy stoner for that matter. A grand(as opposed to petite) bourgeois has enough wealth that they don't need to work for wages/salary. They own enough to live off of dividends or increased value of their investments.

Petite bourgeois (small business owner) tends to own a small company, or some share of a large company, but not quite enough to live off of. The petite bourgeois will work, usually as a boss/manager at the company they own.

Incremental innovation/invention tends to be the domain of the engineer or other technical worker at a business. Usually the value of their invention is owned by the company they work for, not themselves. There are occasional stories of people with good ideas and little existing wealth forming tech start-ups, but this is the exception, not the rule. High tech ideas, be they software or hardware, when implemented, will need to run on a platform that contains thousands of patents. The only way to bring a high tech idea to market is through cross licensing with big firms that already have huge patent portfolios.

Most people who defend capitalism claim that even though the investor isn't some brilliant creative mind, at least they perform the role of directing capital to where it can innovate the most and away from where it is being wasted.

Lets see if this is really the case. Are investors moving their money to medical research that could cure malaria? ...to education? to universal healthcare? No. Investors are moving to pure gambling speculative capital (high frequency trading, deliberately mathematically source-obfuscated derivatives, etc). Investors love brands around ultimately cheap/worthless consumer goods (Pepsi and Coke are selling ad-created identities that really amount to sugar water[though it is delicious]).

By law, companies must serve their investors demand for short term profits. It is basically illegal for a company to invest in the long term good of the economy. Markets only allow incremental innovation. That means that real innovation, fundamental research, is publicly funded, and not a part of capitalism. Public universities, government research labs, national institutes of health and science, etc do the most groundbreaking scientific research that actually moves society/technology forward.

The examples usually given for massive private innovation usually turn out, when examined closely, to have been almost entirely outside the market.

Take Bell Labs: probably the most important tech company ever. You can fairly credit them for creating radio astronomy, solar panels, digital audio, international communications networks, information theory, the transistor, UNIX, the laser, c/c++, discovering background radiation, etc.

But did these inventions happen through investors trying to get higher ROI in a competitive market?

AT&T which owned Bell Labs, was a tightly government regulated monopoly during the innovative period at Bell Labs. There was no market pressure for short term profits and undercutting the competition by being as lean as possible, so AT&T was able to "waste" resources on basic science and engineering. Also, this was at the height of the Cold War. Billions* in state funding went to companies like Bell Labs that were creating advanced technology

The morality of capitalism is dependent upon the source of loans (debt).

Where do loans come from? And once discovering this. If you find the debt system (the foundation of capitalism) immoral, will you agree that the entire economic system as it is built today is immoral? I hope so.

The "credit" system is just a system for allocating social resources. In capitalism, banks perform this function. They allocate resources to those who have a) lots of money and then b) have good-ish ideas. Also, banks steal from borrowers by demanding "interest" on the allocated resources. Property is theft. To charge someone to use a part of the earth is usury. The banker's interest is the same as the landlord's rent is the same as the copyright holder's royalties is the same as the capitalist in this image's profit.

To me, the problem with this whole model can be summed up like this:

What if the worker's decide they want to come in an control the factory democratically/associatively? Then the state rolls in and forces them off these resources. Property is despotism. Beyond that, the 'owner' (individual with a piece of paper from the state) simply charges a tax to anyone who wants to use these resources. And when the whole planet is under 'ownership' (that is, when all things and places are under the absolute control of a relatively few number of people), most people are forced to pay tribute to these owners. Property is theft. (the big ones being profit, rent, interest, and royalties)

*maybe even trillions if you count all the science, engineering, and high tech production that was state funded through the 20th century. Consider WWII, the Manhattan project, NASA, etc...

TL;DR: Meaningful competition is impossible given the conditions we have created with capitalism

RGacky3
1st November 2011, 08:23
The economic calculation problem only applies to command economies, something which most socialists opppose.