Log in

View Full Version : On the Compatibility of Communism and Christianity



Engel
30th October 2011, 19:35
Here I thought this was an interesting article. May be published by a CPUSA member but some of the points are very solid nonetheless

The common wisdom of both Christians and Marxists is that Christianity and communism are incompatible; when looking at the history of relations between the two ideologies as well as the ideologies themselves, it is understandable why many come to this conclusion. Communists have traditionally believed that Christianity has been a tool of the ruling classes to keep proletarians and peasants in chains. Marx, in his essay “On the Jewish Question” claims that religion provided an escape from the alienation of proletarian life. As this alienation would not exist in communism, religion would no longer be necessary.

Since people would find fulfillment in their day-to-day labor, the worship of deities would simply fade away. In addition, he believed that humans should strive for authenticity themselves rather than project ideal humanity onto a non-existent being. Many Christians see Marxism a materialist, secular philosophy that is antithetical to all forms of spirituality as well as inherently repressive. Hence, in spite of Christianity’s doctrines concerning social-justice, Christians do not view Marxism as a viable political option. As an orthodox Christian and a communist, I would contend that both sides are incorrect in their assessment of one another and that the time has come to build new bridges of reconciliation and solidarity between Christians and Marxists.

The main Christian critique of Marxism is that historical materialism is incompatible with Christian doctrines such as the existence of substances beyond matter, like spirit. Many Marxists (Marx himself) would agree. Many Christians have reinterpreted Christian doctrine in such a way that squares more ontological materialism, but for more conservative Christians such as myself, this is not a viable option. There is, however, a way to interpret historical materialism in such a way that it need not conflict with the existence of spirit.

Whether or not Marx would have believed that all things are composed of matter is beside the point; the most important aspect of Marxism is historical materialism—material entities satisfying their material necessities and the forces and modes of production that facilitate this are what primarily drive history—not necessarily ontological materialism (everything is matter). If we understand historical materialism in this way, we still leave open the possibility of immaterial reality; it is merely that, in terms of how history plays out, material reality has a certain priority. In addition Engels, in “Socialism: Utopian and Scientific” concedes that higher levels of the historical materialist superstructure can turn around and exert causal influence over economics, so Marxism can allow for things which are not necessarily material to have a direct impact on history.

As an orthodox Christian I am required to believe in the existence of spirit; nevertheless it’s undeniable that economics exerts a greater influence over history than the activity of our consciousness, and our consciousness itself has been to a large degree shaped by our particular relationship to the means of production. I see no necessary contradiction between this view and orthodox Christianity, so long as the Christian maintains that spirit does exist and exerts a certain non-historical priority over matter.

Marxists and Christians have a lot of common ground in that the Bible clearly teaches God’s preference for the interests of the poor. According to the 8th century BCE prophets, a key reason for the Babylonian exile was punishment for Israel’s failure to care for its poor (cf Jer 5:28-29; 22:3-5; Hos 6:6; Amos 2:6-7; 4:1; 4:11-12). The Torah is also filled with provisions designed to protect the poor from oppression (cf Ex 23:3, 7-11); not the least of which was the Jubilee Year, wherein every 50 years all outstanding debts would be canceled, all possessions returned to their original owners, all prices reduced, and all servants set free; this measure was designed to level the economic playing field among ancient Hebrews (Lev 25:8-17).

Jesus, for his opening sermon in the Luke’s Gospel quotes the Prophet Isaiah: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach good news to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to preach the year of the Lord’s Favor,” (Luke 4:18-19). Jesus later tells his disciples: “how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the Kingdom of Heaven,” (Luke 18:18-25). Beyond Jesus, James might as well directly explicate the doctrine of surplus value in the 5th Chapter of his epistle: “behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which you kept back by fraud crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord Sabaoth,” (James 5:4).

Finally, the Acts of the Apostles explicates clearly the kind of society in which Christians are to live, and for which we are to advocate: “And the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common… Neither was there any among them that lacked… and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need,” (Acts 4:32, 34-35). Oddly enough, Marx said something suspiciously similar to the tone of: “…from each according to his ability to each according to his need.” Concern for the oppressed and the establishment of a just society is as much a part of Christian tradition as is raw spirituality. The goal of the Communist Party with regards to Christians should be awaken them to these teachings of their own traditions and how they have more in common with the left than with the right.

Concerning the Marxian critiques of religion: that it is unnecessary in communism, and more essentially (as per the new-Hegelian school from which Marx hailed) that it projects the human essence onto a non-existent reality rather than enabling humans to reach said essence themselves. It is here that I and Marx will part ways. If one believes this to be essential to Marxist doctrine, then Christianity and Marxism are incompatible, but I would contend that this interpretation is not necessary to either of the two most important doctrines of Marxism: historical materialism, and surplus value. Not only is this interpretation of Marx unnecessary, it is also unrealistic.

Although many of the existential problems that plague humanity stem from material causes, not all of them do. Even if the human person finds herself completely at home in her workplace, this alone is not satisfactory enough to unite the human essence with its existence. While Marx was correct that the human essence includes its ability to rationally change nature to produce the goods necessary to survive and thrive, it is also the case that human essence includes the possibility of achieving some kind of transcendence of the mundane that cannot be found in merely ending working class alienation.

In terms of the New-Hegelian Critique: I agree, we do project ideal humanity—in an allegorical sense—onto God. To argue that this necessarily implies that God does not exist, however, is circular. At any rate, the projection of ideal humanity onto God does not imply that religion must prevent humans from reaching this ideal itself. Although some Christians would argue that we should merely rely on the grace of God for salvation and wait for the coming of Christ rather than improve ourselves and reform society, they are sorely unbiblical (cf Eph 5:1; Phil 3:13-14; Heb 6:1). It is because of the biblical imperative to strive for existential authenticity as well as the interdependence of all members of the human community that Communism is entailed by Christian social ethics.

At any rate, whether or not my comrades agree with my interpretation of Marx, there is an entire community of social-justice-minded Christians—Protestant, Catholic, Evangelical or other—who could potentially be Communists without even realizing it. The party has a great deal of work to do in reaching out to them and assuring them that in the society we intend to build, our right to practice Christianity will be protected. A plurality of the working class of this nation identifies as Christian; imagine what we could accomplish if we managed to convince them that our faith is not only compatible with communism but entails it. At any rate that the party will never succeed in building a mass-people’s movement until it does just that.

The original article by Andrew Miller can be found here, http://www.politicalaffairs.net/the-compatibility-of-christianity-and-marxism/ As always, "¡Hasta la victoria siempre!" comrades! :cubaflag: :che: :hammersickle:

ZeroNowhere
30th October 2011, 19:42
Concerning the Marxian critiques of religion: that it is unnecessary in communism, and more essentially (as per the new-Hegelian school from which Marx hailed) that it projects the human essence onto a non-existent reality rather than enabling humans to reach said essence themselves. It is here that I and Marx will part ways. If one believes this to be essential to Marxist doctrine, then Christianity and Marxism are incompatible, but I would contend that this interpretation is not necessary to either of the two most important doctrines of Marxism: historical materialism, and surplus value. Not only is this interpretation of Marx unnecessary, it is also unrealistic.I don't know, I'd think that materialism is a pretty important part of a materialist conception of history.

Bud Struggle
30th October 2011, 20:35
Communism and Christianity can be fellow travelers for a good deal of the journey but the end for both is completely different.

B5C
30th October 2011, 20:51
It can work together, but they also can be mortal enemies as well. We just have to watch and control Christianity from having too much influence.

If we must have Christianity in the ranks. We gotta try to make the Christian Socialist movement to work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

Bud Struggle
30th October 2011, 21:30
It can work together, but they also can be mortal enemies as well. We just have to watch and control Christianity from having too much influence.

If we must have Christianity in the ranks. We gotta try to make the Christian Socialist movement to work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

Just the opposite. Christians have to control Communists. By far Christianity is the bigger player.

Hell, the largest Christian nation on earth--is Communist China. :)

ComradeMan
30th October 2011, 21:43
It can work together, but they also can be mortal enemies as well. We just have to watch and control Christianity from having too much influence.

If we must have Christianity in the ranks. We gotta try to make the Christian Socialist movement to work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

And with an attitude like yours you really are going to win over and then "control" 2.2 billion people..... :rolleyes:

Looking at your user title again... what if someone were to say "Why should we have Buddhists in our ranks?"

(Disclaimer: I have no problems with Buddhism/Buddhists- it's just "academic").

MustCrushCapitalism
30th October 2011, 22:09
Christianity and Socialism are not just compatible, one cannot be a true Christian without being a Socialist or Communist, I'd argue. Jesus, no doubt, would have been a Socialist.

Ocean Seal
30th October 2011, 22:16
I don't know, I'd think that materialism is a pretty important part of a materialist conception of history.
This is true to a certain extent. I see my views as quite blurred on this topic, as I'm not quite sure of my spiritual views at the moment, but I don't think that a world without a god is necessary in order to view the scientific progression of world economics. Much like you don't need to disbelieve in god to support evolution I believe much goes the same way for materialist history.

Bud Struggle
30th October 2011, 22:42
This is true to a certain extent. I see my views as quite blurred on this topic, as I'm not quite sure of my spiritual views at the moment, but I don't think that a world without a god is necessary in order to view the scientific progression of world economics. Much like you don't need to disbelieve in god to support evolution I believe much goes the same way for materialist history.

Of course you know--this is why Communism is considered a "Totalitarian" outlook.

RGacky3
30th October 2011, 22:54
Of course you know--this is why Communism is considered a "Totalitarian" outlook.

DOes'nt make any sense considering what you quoted. Also no one except Americans over 50 automatically equate socialist with totalitarian.



Christianity and Socialism are not just compatible, one cannot be a true Christian without being a Socialist or Communist, I'd argue. Jesus, no doubt, would have been a Socialist.


I would agree in a way, it takes HUGE leaps and logical gymnastics to even attempt to make christianity compatible with capitalism.


Just the opposite. Christians have to control Communists. By far Christianity is the bigger player.

Hell, the largest Christian nation on earth--is Communist China. http://www.revleft.com/vb/compatibility-communism-and-t163523/revleft/smilies/001_smile.gif

The Chineese are becoming christian the same way middle aged upper class American women are becoming buddist and getting into Yoga.

B5C
31st October 2011, 07:03
BTW do you think Jesus would ever say this:

xm5V940Qiug

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6232/csrn6.jpg

Also note that America and the world has already been influenced by a Christian Socialist before:
Francis Bellamy (Author the American Pledge.)
Hugo Chávez
J. K. Rowling
Thomas J. Hagerty (Founding member of the Industrial Workers of the World)
Helen Keller
Frank Zeidler

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 08:43
Eugene Debs, the Quintisential American socialist.

MLK also.

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 11:19
The Chineese are becoming christian the same way middle aged upper class American women are becoming buddist and getting into Yoga.

First question- what is that way and can you prove it? Second question- what is the reason for this?

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 11:34
First question- what is that way and can you prove it? Second question- what is the reason for this?

No I can't prove that, but remember, I'm talking to Bud Struggle, someone who has no notion of evidence and fact. Remember he just said that China is the largest christian nation, something so stupid that I feel no need to make a real response.

The reason for this (the increase in christianity in China) is probably the idea that being western is cool and will help you in life, and that its new and different, which is kind of the same reason eastern philosophy and religion became popular with middle/upper class westeners.

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 11:42
No I can't prove that, but remember, I'm talking to Bud Struggle, someone who has no notion of evidence and fact. Remember he just said that China is the largest christian nation, something so stupid that I feel no need to make a real response.

That's a completely ridiculous argument. You're basically saying that because you think Bud makes assertions he can't back up then you can also do that and call it a valid argument.

It is hard to know how many Christians there are in China, estimates range from between 40-100 million, a minority in Chinese terms, but enormous in terms of many other nations and larger than the entire populations of some so-called traditionally "Christian" nations in Europe. Christianity also seems to be growing.


The reason for this (the increase in christianity in China) is probably the idea that being western is cool and will help you in life, and that its new and different, which is kind of the same reason eastern philosophy and religion became popular with middle/upper class westeners.

is probably the idea = You don't know. :rolleyes:

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 12:06
You're basically saying that because you think Bud makes assertions he can't back up then you can also do that and call it a valid argument.


I don't call it a valid argument .... I thought I made that clear, I was'nt making an argument, because Bud has'nt made an argument, he says something idiotic, and you expect me to waste my time making a thought out respsonse? I'll do that when he proves capable of logical argument.


is probably the idea = You don't know. http://www.revleft.com/vb/compatibility-communism-and-t163523/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

No shit I don't know, niether do you nor Bud ... Nor does anyone other than the individual Chineese Christians.


It is hard to know how many Christians there are in China, estimates range from between 40-100 million, a minority in Chinese terms, but enormous in terms of many other nations and larger than the entire populations of some so-called traditionally "Christian" nations in Europe. Christianity also seems to be growing.


The most respected number is 54 million. Anyway, so what?

Bud Struggle
31st October 2011, 12:40
Here you go Gack:

http://www.shenzhenstuff.com/profiles/blogs/china-is-worlds-largest

Now could you please give me proof that the Chinese Chirstians aren't "good Christians?"

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 12:50
Now could you please give me proof that the Chinese Chirstians aren't "good Christians?"

There is'nt any proof either way. but it would be interesting to see actual Church attendance, or bible literacy, as opposed to those who just call themself christian.


http://www.shenzhenstuff.com/profiles/blogs/china-is-worlds-largest

That includes buddists and Taoists. Christians make up 12% of believers, i.e. 40 million according to that article (I used a higher number).

Bud Struggle
31st October 2011, 12:59
There is'nt any proof either way. but it would be interesting to see actual Church attendance, or bible literacy, as opposed to those who just call themself christian. I don't think that matters all that much. Neither are "required" to be a Christian--just a confession of belief.


That includes buddists and Taoists. Christians make up 12% of believers, i.e. 40 million according to that article (I used a higher number).Here's a report that puts is down the road a bit--but still very close.

http://abcpastor.wordpress.com/2007/08/08/china-the-largest-christian-nationin-the-world/

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 13:11
I don't think that matters all that much. Neither are "required" to be a Christian--just a confession of belief.


Depends on your definition of Christianity, but if we are saying a country is a "christian country," it would mean that people actually believe and practice the religion.


Here's a report that puts is down the road a bit--but still very close.

http://abcpastor.wordpress.com/2007/...nin-the-world/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://abcpastor.wordpress.com/2007/08/08/china-the-largest-christian-nationin-the-world/)

That article is using highly inflated numbers.

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 13:14
I don't call it a valid argument .... I thought I made that clear, I was'nt making an argument, because Bud has'nt made an argument, he says something idiotic, and you expect me to waste my time making a thought out respsonse? I'll do that when he proves capable of logical argument.

What were you doing? Bud has made an interesting point in his own "Buddish" manner. What has he said that's idiotics? Sweeping generalisations and assertions that are admittedly unknown to the poster....oh... wait.... that was you! Ooops :blushing:


No shit I don't know, niether do you nor Bud ... Nor does anyone other than the individual Chineese Christians.

You call for logical argument and yet fall back on a false tu quoque argument.

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 13:21
What has he said that's idiotics? Sweeping generalisations and assertions that are admittedly unknown to the poster....oh... wait.... that was you! Ooops http://www.revleft.com/vb/compatibility-communism-and-t163523/revleft/smilies2/blushing.gif


his claim that China was the largest christian nation ....


You call for logical argument and yet fall back on a false tu quoque argument.

I'm pretty sure I am not the one on this board that is known for not making logical arguments, and I'm pretty sure Bud is'nt well known here for making logical arguments.

But ok, I'll admit, I DON'T KNOW, why christians in china are christians ... Holyshit you got me.

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 13:23
But ok, I'll admit, I DON'T KNOW, why christians in china are christians ... Holyshit you got me.

Well then you shouldn't assert it then should you? ;)

Bud Struggle
31st October 2011, 13:23
Depends on your definition of Christianity, but if we are saying a country is a "christian country," it would mean that people actually believe and practice the religion. You could have said that about the early church, too.




That article is using highly inflated numbers. So you say. I've said this before--that there is a very definitive interest in "Jesus Christ" in the Chinese population. He is brought up in "polite" conversation as he isn't in the West.

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 13:26
Well then you shouldn't assert it then should you? http://www.revleft.com/vb/compatibility-communism-and-t163523/revleft/smilies/wink.gif

You did'nt get my point, Bud makes a sweeping silly generalization, and I do the same to show the foolishness of his post.


You could have said that about the early church, too.


Absolutely ...


So you say. I've said this before--that there is a very definitive interest in "Jesus Christ" in the Chinese population. He is brought up in "polite" conversation as he isn't in the West.

So says statisticians.

It does'nt suprise me at all that christianity is brought up with a different interest in China than in the west, because its totally new.

Bud Struggle
31st October 2011, 13:26
Well then you shouldn't assert it then should you? ;)

CM, Gack is a bit OCD. He gets crazy when things are ordered the way he likes them. It's OK, we all have crosses we have to bear.
:)