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Manic Impressive
30th October 2011, 16:39
I read this the other day and found it interesting even though I do not share his views.


The only possible opening for a statement of this kind is that I detest writing. The process itself epitomizes the European concept of legitimate thinking; what is written has an importance that is denied the spoken. My culture, the Lakota culture, has an oral tradition, so I ordinarily reject writing. It is one of the white worlds ways of destroying the cultures of non-European peoples, the imposing of an abstraction over the spoken relationship of a people.
So what you read here is not what Ive written. Its what Ive said and someone else has written down. I will allow this because it seems that the only way to communicate with the white world is through the dead, dry leaves of a book. I dont really care whether my words reach whites or not. They have already demonstrated through their history that they cannot hear, cannot see; they can only read (of course, there are exceptions, but the exceptions only prove the rule). Im more concerned with American Indian people, students and others, who have begun to be absorbed into the white world through universities and other institutions. But even then its a marginal sort of concern. Its very possible to grow into a red face with a white mind; and if thats a persons individual choice, so be it, but I have no use for them. This is part of the process of cultural genocide being waged by Europeans against American Indian peoples today. My concern is with those American Indians who choose to resist this genocide, but who may be confused as to how to proceed.
(You notice I use the term American Indian rather than Native American or Native indigenous people or Amerindian when referring to my people. There has been some controversy about such terms, and frankly, at this point, I find it absurd. Primarily it seems that American Indian is being rejected as European in originwhich is true. But all the above terms are European in origin; the only non-European way is to speak of Lakotaor, more precisely, of Oglala, Brule, etc.and of the Dineh, the Miccousukee, and all the rest of the several hundred correct tribal names.
(There is also some confusion about the word Indian, a mistaken belief that it refers somehow to the country, India. When Columbus washed up on the beach in the Caribbean, he was not looking for a country called India. Europeans were calling that country Hindustan in 1492. Look it up on the old maps. Columbus called the tribal people he met Indio, from the Italian in dio, meaning in God.)
It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A masters degree in Indian Studies or in education or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.
I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, Im not allowing for false distinctions. Im not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary, European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. Im referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and leftism in general. I dont believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the of the European intellectual tradition. Its really just the same old song.
The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, revolutionized physics and the so-called natural sciences by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation. Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these thinkers took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they secularized Christian religion, as the scholars like to sayand in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!
This is what has come to be termed efficiency in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the momentthat is, proves the mechanical model to be the right oneis considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why truth changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.
Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theologyand that is put in his own termshe secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegels philosophy in terms of materialism, which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegels work altogether. Again, this is in Marx own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, but American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining. The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marxand his followerslinks to the tradition of Newton, Hegel and the others.
Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is proof that the system works to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But lets look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.
The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, Thou shalt not kill, at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.
In terms of the despiritualization of the universe, the mental process works so that it becomes virtuous to destroy the planet. Terms like progress and development are used as cover words here, the way victory and freedom are used to justify butchery in the dehumanization process. For example, a real-estate speculator may refer to developing a parcel of ground by opening a gravel quarry; development here means total, permanent destruction, with the earth itself removed. But European logic has gained a few tons of gravel with which more land can be developed through the construction of road beds. Ultimately, the whole universe is openin the European viewto this sort of insanity.
Most important here, perhaps, is the fact that Europeans feel no sense of loss in all this. After all, their philosophers have despiritualized reality, so there is no satisfaction (for them) to be gained in simply observing the wonder of a mountain or a lake or a people in being. No, satisfaction is measured in terms of gaining material. So the mountain becomes gravel, and the lake becomes coolant for a factory, and the people are rounded up for processing through the indoctrination mills Europeans like to call schools.
But each new piece of that progress ups the ante out in the real world. Take fuel for the industrial machine as an example. Little more than two centuries ago, nearly everyone used wooda replenishable, natural itemas fuel for the very human needs of cooking and staying warm. Along came the Industrial Revolution and coal became the dominant fuel, as production became the social imperative for Europe. Pollution began to become a problem in the cities, and the earth was ripped open to provide coal whereas wood had always simply been gathered or harvested at no great expense to the environment. Later, oil became the major fuel, as the technology of production was perfected through a series of scientific revolutions. Pollution increased dramatically, and nobody yet knows what the environmental costs of pumping all that oil out of the ground will really be in the long run. Now theres an energy crisis, and uranium is becoming the dominant fuel.
Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate which they can show a good profit. Thats their ethic, and maybe they will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because its the most efficient production fuel available. Thats their ethic, and I fail to see where its preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of European tradition. Its the same old song.
Theres a rule of thumb which can be applied here. You cannot judge the real nature of a European revolutionary doctrine on the basis of the changes it proposes to make within the European power structure and society. You can only judge it by the effects it will have on non-European peoples. This is because every revolution in European history has served to reinforce Europes tendencies and abilities to export destruction to other peoples, other cultures and the environment itself. I defy anyone to point out an example where this is not true.
So now we, as American Indian people, are asked to believe that a new European revolutionary doctrine such as Marxism will reverse the negative effects of European history on us. European power relations are to be adjusted once again, and thats supposed to make things better for all of us. But what does this really mean?
Right now, today, we who live on the Pine Ridge Reservation are living in what white society has designated a National Sacrifice Area. What this means is that we have a lot of uranium deposits here, and white culture (not us) needs this uranium as energy production material. The cheapest, most efficient way for industry to extract and deal with the processing of this uranium is to dump the waste by-products right here at the digging sites. Right here where we live. This waste is radioactive and will make the entire region uninhabitable forever. This is considered by the industry, and by the white society that created this industry, to be an acceptable price to pay for energy resource development. Along the way they also plan to drain the water table under this part of South Dakota as part of the industrial process, so the region becomes doubly uninhabitable. The same sort of thing is happening down in the land of the Navajo and Hopi, up in the land of the Northern Cheyenne and Crow, and elsewhere. Thirty percent of the coal in the West and half of the uranium deposits in the United States have been found to lie under reservation land, so there is no way this can be called a minor issue.
We are resisting being turned into a National Sacrifice Area. We are resisting being turned into a national sacrifice people. The costs of this industrial process are not acceptable to us. It is genocide to dig uranium here and drain the water tableno more, no less.
Now lets suppose that in our resistance to extermination we begin to seek allies (we have). Lets suppose further that we were to take revolutionary Marxism at its word: that it intends nothing less than the complete overthrow of the European capitalists order which has presented this threat to our very existence. This would seem to be a natural alliance for American Indian people to enter into. After all, as the Marxists say, it is the capitalists who set us up to be a national sacrifice. This is true as far as it goes.
But, as Ive tried to point out, this truth is very deceptive. Revolutionary Marxism is committed to even further perpetuation and perfection of the very industrial process which is destroying us all. It offers only to redistribute the resultsthe money, maybeof this industrialization to a wider section of the population. It offers to take wealth from the capitalists and pass it around; but in order to do so, Marxism must maintain the industrial system. Once again, the power relations within European society will have to be altered, but once again the effects upon American Indian peoples here and non-Europeans elsewhere will remain the same. This is much the same as when power was redistributed from the church to private business during the so-called bourgeois revolution. European society changed a bit, at least superficially, but its conduct toward non-Europeans continued as before. You can see what the American Revolution of 1776 did for American Indians. Its the same old song.
Revolutionary Marxism, like industrial society in other forms, seeks to rationalize all people in relation to industrymaximum industry, maximum production. It is a doctrine that despises the American Indian spiritual tradition, our cultures, our lifeways. Marx himself called us precapitalists and primitive. Precapitalist simply means that, in his view, we would eventually discover capitalism and become capitalists; we have always been economically retarded in Marxist terms. The only manner in which American Indian people could participate in a Marxist revolution would be to join the industrial system, to become factory workers, or proletarians, as Marx called them. The man was very clear about the fact that his revolution could only occur through the struggle of the proletariat, that the existence of a massive industrial system is a precondition of a successful Marxist society.
I think theres a problem with language here. Christians, capitalists, Marxists. All of them have been revolutionary in their own minds, but none of them really means revolution. What they really mean is continuation. They do what they do in order that European culture can continue to exist and develop according to its needs. Like germs, European culture goes through occasional convulsions, even divisions within itself, in order to go on living and growing. This isnt a revolution were talking about, but a means to continue what already exists. An amoeba is still an amoeba after it reproduces. But maybe comparing European culture to an amoeba isnt really fair to the amoeba. Maybe cancer cells are a more accurate comparison because European culture has historically destroyed everything around it; and it will eventually destroy itself.
So, in order for us to really join forces with Marxism, we American Indians would have to accept the national sacrifice of our homeland; we would have to commit cultural suicide and become industrialized and Europeanized.
At this point, Ive got to stop and ask myself whether Im being too harsh. Marxism has something of a history. Does this history bear out my observations? I look to the process of industrialization in the Soviet Union since 1920 and I see that these Marxists have done what it took the English Industrial Revolution 300 years to do; and the Marxists did it in 60 years. I see that the territory of the USSR used to contain a number of tribal peoples and that they have been crushed to make way for the factories. The Soviets refer to this as the National Question, the question of whether the tribal peoples had the right to exist as peoples; and they decided the tribal peoples were an acceptable sacrifice to the industrial needs. I look to China and I see the same thing. I look to Vietnam and I see Marxists imposing an industrial order and rooting out the indigenous tribal mountain people.
I hear the leading Soviet scientist saying that when uranium is exhausted, then alternatives will be found. I see the Vietnamese taking over a nuclear power plant abandoned by the U.S. military. Have they dismantled and destroyed it? No, they are using it. I see China exploding nuclear bombs, developing uranium reactors, and preparing a space program in order to colonize and exploit the planets the same as the Europeans colonized and exploited this hemisphere. Its the same old song, but maybe with a faster tempo this time.
The statement of the Soviet scientist is very interesting. Does he know what this alternative energy source will be? No, he simply has faith. Science will find a way. I hear revolutionary Marxists saying that the destruction of the environment, pollution, and radiation will all be controlled. And I see them act upon their words. Do they know how these things will be controlled? No, they simply have faith. Science will find a way. Industrialization is fine and necessary. How do they know this? Faith. Science will find a way. Faith of this sort has always been known in Europe as religion. Science has become the new European religion for both capitalists and Marxists; they are truly inseparable; they are part and parcel of the same culture. So, in both theory and practice, Marxism demands that non-European peoples give up their values, their traditions, their cultural existence altogether. We will all be industrialized science addicts in a Marxist society.
I do not believe that capitalism itself is really responsible for the situation in which American Indians have been declared a national sacrifice. No, it is the European tradition; European culture itself is responsible. Marxism is just the latest continuation of this tradition, not a solution to it. To ally with Marxism is to ally with the very same forces that declare us an acceptable cost.
There is another way. There is the traditional Lakota way and the ways of the American Indian peoples. It is the way that knows that humans do not have the right to degrade Mother Earth, that there are forces beyond anything the European mind has conceived, that humans must be in harmony with all relations or the relations will eventually eliminate the disharmony. A lopsided emphasis on humans by humansthe Europeans arrogance of acting as though they were beyond the nature of all related thingscan only result in a total disharmony and a readjustment which cuts arrogant humans down to size, gives them a taste of that reality beyond their grasp or control and restores the harmony. There is no need for a revolutionary theory to bring this about; its beyond human control. The nature peoples of this planet know this and so they do not theorize about it. Theory is an abstract; our knowledge is real.
Distilled to its basic terms, European faithincluding the new faith in scienceequals a belief that man is God. Europe has always sought a Messiah, whether that be the man Jesus Christ or the man Karl Marx or the man Albert Einstein. American Indians know this to be totally absurd. Humans are the weakest of all creatures, so weak that other creatures are willing to give up their flesh that we may live. Humans are able to survive only through the exercise of rationality since they lack the abilities of other creatures to gain food through the use of fang and claw.
But rationality is a curse since it can cause humans to forget the natural order of things in ways other creatures do not. A wolf never forgets his or her place in the natural order. American Indians can. Europeans almost always do. We pray our thanks to the deer, our relations, for allowing us their flesh to eat; Europeans simply take the flesh for granted and consider the deer inferior. After all, Europeans consider themselves godlike in their rationalism and science. God is the Supreme Being; all else must be inferior.
All European tradition, Marxism included, has conspired to defy the natural order of all things. Mother Earth has been abused, the powers have been abused, and this cannot go on forever. No theory can alter that simple fact. Mother Earth will retaliate, the whole environment will retaliate, and the abusers will be eliminated. Things come full circle, back to where they started. Thats revolution. And thats a prophecy of my people, of the Hopi people and of other correct peoples.
American Indians have been trying to explain this to Europeans for centuries. But, as I said earlier, Europeans have proven themselves unable to hear. The natural order will win out, and the offenders will die out, the way deer die when they offend the harmony by over-populating a given region. Its only a matter of time until what Europeans call a major catastrophe of global proportions will occur. It is the role of American Indian peoples, the role of all natural beings, to survive. A part of our survival is to resist. We resist not to overthrow a government or to take political power, but because it is natural to resist extermination, to survive. We dont want power over white institutions; we want white institutions to disappear. Thats revolution.
American Indians are still in touch with these realitiesthe prophecies, the traditions of our ancestors. We learn from the elders, from nature, from the powers. And when the catastrophe is over, we American Indian peoples will still be here to inhabit the hemisphere. I dont care if its only a handful living high in the Andes. American Indian people will survive; harmony will be reestablished. Thats revolution.
At this point, perhaps I should be very clear about another matter, one which should already be clear as a result of what Ive said. But confusion breeds easily these days, so I want to hammer home this point. When I use the term European, Im not referring to a skin color or a particular genetic structure. What Im referring to is a mind-set, a worldview that is a product of the development of European culture. People are not genetically encoded to hold this outlook; they are acculturated to hold it. The same is true for American Indians or for the members of any culture.
It is possible for an American Indian to share European values, a European worldview. We have a term for these people; we call them applesred on the outside (genetics) and white on the inside (their values). Other groups have similar terms: Blacks have their oreos; Hispanos have Coconuts and so on. And, as I said before, there are exceptions to the white norm: people who are white on the outside, but not white inside. Im not sure what term should be applied to them other than human beings.
What Im putting out here is not a racial proposition but a cultural proposition. Those who ultimately advocate and defend the realities of European culture and its industrialism are my enemies. Those who resist it, who struggle against it, are my allies, the allies of American Indian people. And I dont give a damn what their skin color happens to be. Caucasian is the white term for the white race: European is an outlook I oppose.
The Vietnamese Communists are not exactly what you might consider genetic Caucasians, but they are now functioning as mental Europeans. The same holds true for Chinese Communists, for Japanese capitalists or Bantu Catholics or Peter MacDollar down at the Navajo Reservation or Dickie Wilson up here at Pine Ridge. There is no racism involved in this, just an acknowledgment of the mind and spirit that make up culture.
In Marxist terms I suppose Im a cultural nationalist. I work first with my people, the traditional Lakota people, because we hold a common worldview and share an immediate struggle. Beyond this, I work with other traditional American Indian peoples, again because of a certain commonality in worldview and form of struggle. Beyond that, I work with anyone who has experienced the colonial oppression of Europe and who resists its cultural and industrial totality. Obviously, this includes genetic Caucasians who struggle to resist the dominant norms of European culture. The Irish and the Basques come immediately to mind, but there are many others.
I work primarily with my own people, with my own community. Other people who hold non-European perspectives should do the same. I believe in the slogan, Trust your brothers vision, although Id like to add sisters into the bargain. I trust the community and the culturally based vision of all the races that naturally resist industrialization and human extinction. Clearly, individual whites can share in this, given only that they have reached the awareness that continuation of the industrial imperatives of Europe is not a vision, but species suicide. White is one of the sacred colors of the Lakota peoplered, yellow, white and black. The four directions. The four seasons. The four periods of life and aging. The four races of humanity. Mix red, yellow, white and black together and you get brown, the color of the fifth race. This is a natural ordering of things. It therefore seems natural to me to work with all races, each with its own special meaning, identity and message.
But there is a peculiar behavior among most Caucasians. As soon as I become critical of Europe and its impact on other cultures, they become defensive. They begin to defend themselves. But Im not attacking them personally; Im attacking Europe. In personalizing my observations on Europe they are personalizing European culture, identifying themselves with it. By defending themselves in this context, they are ultimately defending the death culture. This is a confusion which must be overcome, and it must be overcome in a hurry. None of us has energy to waste in such false struggles.
Caucasians have a more positive vision to offer humanity than European culture. I believe this. But in order to attain this vision it is necessary for Caucasians to step outside European culturealongside the rest of humanityto see Europe for what it is and what it does.
To cling to capitalism and Marxism and all other isms is simply to remain within European culture. There is no avoiding this basic fact. As a fact, this constitutes a choice. Understand that the choice is based on culture, not race. Understand that to choose European culture and industrialism is to choose to be my enemy. And understand that the choice is yours, not mine.
This leads me back to address those American Indians who are drifting through the universities, the city slums, and other European institutions. If you are there to resist the oppressor in accordance with your traditional ways, so be it. I dont know how you manage to combine the two, but perhaps you will succeed. But retain your sense of reality. Beware of coming to believe the white world now offers solutions to the problems it confronts us with. Beware, too, of allowing the words of native people to be twisted to the advantages of our enemies. Europe invented the practice of turning words around on themselves. You need only look to the treaties between American Indian peoples and various European governments to know that this is true. Draw your strength from who you are.
A culture which regularly confuses revolt with resistance, has nothing helpful to teach you and nothing to offer you as a way of life. Europeans have long since lost all touch with reality, if ever they were in touch with who you are as American Indians.
So, I suppose to conclude this, I should state clearly that leading anyone toward Marxism is the last thing on my mind. Marxism is as alien to my culture as capitalism and Christianity are. In fact, I can say I dont think Im trying to lead anyone toward anything. To some extent I tried to be a leader, in the sense that the white media like to use that term, when the American Indian Movement was a young organization. This was a result of a confusion I no longer have. You cannot be everything to everyone. I do not propose to be used in such a fashion by my enemies. I am not a leader. I am an Oglala Lakota patriot. That is all I want and all I need to be. And I am very comfortable with who I am.

http://endofcapitalism.com/2010/10/17/revolution-and-american-indians-marxism-is-as-alien-to-my-culture-as-capitalism/

Thoughts?

RGacky3
30th October 2011, 22:57
Of coarse marxism does'nt make any sense unless you understand capitalism. Marxism was 100% a critique of capitalism, if your culture is alien to capitalism it will be alien to marxism too.

(btw Bud struggle, did you read what he wrote, or did you just thank it because its anti-marxism).

Bud Struggle
30th October 2011, 23:00
Of coarse marxism does'nt make any sense unless you understand capitalism. Marxism was 100% a critique of capitalism, if your culture is alien to capitalism it will be alien to marxism too.

(btw Bud struggle, did you read what he wrote, or did you just thank it because its anti-marxism).


I read his point that both Communism and Capitalism are johnny one notes of European culture.

Both Capitalism AND Communism are European Impearialism.

RGacky3
30th October 2011, 23:02
I read his point that both Communism and Capitalism are johnny one notes of European culture.

Both Capitalism AND Communism are European Impearialism.

No, Capitalism is european imperialism and Marxism (NOT THE SAME AS COMMUNISM) was a response to it.

Bud Struggle
30th October 2011, 23:04
No, Capitalism is european imperialism and Marxism (NOT THE SAME AS COMMUNISM) was a response to it.

But all European. A response to a European ideology--is by neccessity European.

ZeroNowhere
30th October 2011, 23:09
Eh, culture politics.

Grigori
31st October 2011, 00:32
Unique view but ultimately flawed. Humanity should unite as one, not cling to its divisions. I doubt how living on a shitty reservation while clinging to "the old ways" is better than leaving and at least attempting to escape utter poverty, increased cancer likelihood and rampant drug and alchohol abuse. Fire water has never been the indians friend (as a mestizo i don't think this counts as rascism. Better yet everyone should have the right to state such facts. Death to PC! Long live the revolution!)

ÑóẊîöʼn
31st October 2011, 01:01
But all European. A response to a European ideology--is by neccessity European.

Your point being? If this native chap doesn't want to have anything to do with Marxism, that's his prerogative. He seems to have made it clear that he's not open to persuasion otherwise, but that neither picks my pocket nor breaks my nose.

Fellow Europeans, on the other hand...

Rafiq
31st October 2011, 01:14
He doesn't even know what Marxism is.

And criticizing marxism on the basis that it's 'western' is 100% reactionary.

Robert
31st October 2011, 01:30
The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, revolutionized physics and the so-called natural sciences by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation. Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these thinkers took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into code, an abstraction. I think it's interesting, touching, and "true" from his conservative point of view.

Indians like him, like the samurai in the 19th century, can only look upon modernity with sadness. Thousands of years of tradition and culture down the drain. No wonder they struggle so mightily with alcoholism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_alcoholism


Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is proof that the system works to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view.Well, now. He seems to detect the same "deadness" in Marxism that everybody else does. Except Marxists.

rundontwalk
31st October 2011, 01:42
I've thought about this. Indian reservations would be the perfect place to agitate for communism because they are a.) among the poorest locales in the USA and b.) have a highish degree of self government.

Agnapostate
31st October 2011, 02:09
Ward Churchill has also edited a book called Marxism and Native Americans that has more detailed analyses of the issue.

Marx and Engels regarded Iroquois society (based on their reading of Lewis Henry Morgan), as primitive communist, if I understand correctly.

ZeroNowhere
31st October 2011, 02:13
I've thought about this. Indian reservations would be the perfect place to agitate for communism because they are a.) among the poorest locales in the USA and b.) have a highish degree of self government.
They probably would be, if you wanted to agitate. It's not like cultural spokesmen actually speak for cultures.

Revolution starts with U
31st October 2011, 04:27
So essentially his point is that Marxism/socialism is not primitivism? Ya, big surprise :lol:

Robert: Civilization = imperialism :confused:

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 11:48
He doesn't even know what Marxism is.

A doctor cures the sick, not the healthy....


And criticizing marxism on the basis that it's 'western' is 100% reactionary.

I think that's unfair. Rafiq, in terms of Native American populations- why the hell should they trust "yet another" "Western ideology"? What good has it ever done them in material terms?

I think ALL peoples need to be left alone a little to develop their own progress. This is not to say that indigenous peoples and cultures exist in an anthropological vacuum but it is to say that they need to develop, and be allowed to develop, their own "indigenous" solutions and responses to their problems and circumstances with whatever help from the rest of us- afterall the tribe is "humanity" at the end of the day.

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 12:08
why the hell should they trust "yet another" "Western ideology"? What good has it ever done them in material terms?


Oh I don't know, because he has a brain, and can read and use logic to understand what things mean.


I think ALL peoples need to be left alone a little to develop their own progress. This is not to say that indigenous peoples and cultures exist in an anthropological vacuum but it is to say that they need to develop, and be allowed to develop, their own "indigenous" solutions and responses to their problems and circumstances with whatever help from the rest of us- afterall the tribe is "humanity" at the end of the day.

At this point that is a utopian pipe dream. People live in Capitalism now whether they like it or not.

hatzel
31st October 2011, 12:30
There's a legitimate concern here. The core foists something problematic and/or undesirable on the periphery (if we may call American Indians socially 'peripheral,' despite living in the global core; similar concerns could be voiced about the geographical periphery, though, so perhaps we should change the parameters and just discuss the idea of core political systems being ill-suited for peripheral areas), before being so kind as to grant it the solution. And the subaltern remains voiceless throughout. The article posted is a legitimate reaction, namely, a conscious refusal to be made subordinate to the dominant narrative, be it cultural, political, epistemological or otherwise. It's very easy to deride these ideas - particularly when one is lucky enough to be 'on top' in the global power game - and claim that these subordinate groups just have to deal with it and come to terms with modernisation, because these unstoppable world-systems will keep rolling on unabated, and cannot be avoided or ignored. This, however, conveniently ignores that what is actually meant by this is that the core is going to keep exerting itself on the periphery, to absorb it into the system it has developed for itself, and those peripheral dissenters ought just accept that we're doing stuff, and we're doing it globally, and you either take part or you lose out.

Hence there is a reaction, a refusal to go along with this hegemony by playing the role of 'aspiring Europeans' or however you want to say it. It's a threat to core sensibilities, however, for people to say that they don't want to be like them, considering the core has a tendency to see itself as the most advanced and progressive (and therefore desirable) of all the cultures. This can be seen whenever those in the West refer to other areas temporally, that is to say, comparing the periphery to Europe/ans in various historical stages. 'Country X is like Europe was in the Middle Ages' or 'such-and-such people are like Europeans were 20.000 years ago' (when in fact there is usually only superficial similarity, just a perceived sense of 'backwardness'), under an assumption that this is a sign of superiority, that we have improved over the centuries and millennia, and that they need to catch up with our development. By which point we'll be comparing them to how we were historically, as we would have already (d)evolved beyond that stage.

(I should stress that I wouldn't consider Russel Means to constitute a part of the subaltern, despite using that word; this is why I expanding the frame of vision to a more general discussion of core-periphery, or, we may say, those within and without power.)

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 13:10
Oh I don't know, because he has a brain, and can read and use logic to understand what things mean.

I think it goes a bit deeper than that somehow....:rolleyes: What he seems to be saying is that both are meaningless in terms of his Native American culture.:rolleyes:

There's no point giving people things they don't want...


At this point that is a utopian pipe dream. People live in Capitalism now whether they like it or not.

You sound like Bud talking about capitalism... ooops... sorry, had to pinch myself there. ;)

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 13:18
I think it goes a bit deeper than that somehow....http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolution-and-american-t163512/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

You asked why should he trust a "western ideology," no one should "trust" ANY ideology, Capitalism was never an ideology (until later, when it was only used as a defense against socialist critique of the existing system) it was an existing system.

The point is no matter what ideology you have and no matter who is judging it, it should be judged on its merits and its logic and applicability.


What he seems to be saying is that both are meaningless in terms of his Native American culture.http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolution-and-american-t163512/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

There's no point giving people things they don't want...


How do you "give someone" marxism ... marxism is a critique of capitalism ... Also it does'nt matter if they want Capitalism or not, its hte system they live in and have to deal with, and if they want to understand it, like anyone else, they should look into different analysis of it.

If Native Americans did'nt live under capitalism then sure, why would they want to know about marxism, it has nothing to do with them.


You sound like Bud talking about capitalism... ooops... sorry, had to pinch myself there. http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolution-and-american-t163512/revleft/smilies/wink.gif

Your assuming that people can just opt out of Capitalism, which rediculous. Or that people can simply develop by themselves, as if economies were not inter-connected.

ComradeMan
31st October 2011, 13:22
Convenient if you just ignore the fact that people aren't robots and also the last 500 years of material history....:laugh:

RGacky3
31st October 2011, 13:23
Convenient if you just ignore the fact that people aren't robots and also the last 500 years of material history....http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolution-and-american-t163512/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif


.... Don't know how thats a response .... The Material history is that native Americans DO live under capitalism, and that marxism explains capitalism in a very important way ...

Apoi_Viitor
31st October 2011, 16:18
Stopped reading after:


Its what Ive said and someone else has written down. I will allow this because it seems that the only way to communicate with the white world is through the dead, dry leaves of a book. I dont really care whether my words reach whites or not. They have already demonstrated through their history that they cannot hear, cannot see; they can only read (of course, there are exceptions, but the exceptions only prove the rule).

chuy
31st October 2011, 17:21
It's been several years now but I'm pretty sure this piece was originally part of a book Marxism and Native Americans, which - as was already stated - was edited by Ward Churchill. The book was a debate between different socialists and natives on the question of whether or not Marxism is relevant to the de-colonization struggles of the First Nations.
I don't recall too many specifics about the arguments but I do remember feeling like the RCP contribution was fairly condescending and dismissive. Maybe that's just their politics, or attitude toward the uninitiated in general.
And in general I don't remember being all that convinced by the differing Marxist authors. Although, that may have been my own bias of the time getting in the way.

I also remember there were a couple of questions that Ward had posed to Marxists that I thought were really good questions but weren't specifically addressed by any of the Marxist contributors. If anyone has the book handy and can find those Q's I think they would make for interesting discussion here on revleft.

ComradeMan
1st November 2011, 16:51
I found the book here, so you can "look inside" so to speak...

http://www.amazon.com/Marxism-Native-Americans-Ward-Churchill/dp/089608177X

And Google books has a copy here (http://books.google.it/books?id=QaXJI107DTIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Marxism+and+Native+Americans&hl=it&ei=3BSwTo2lK5TE4gTvsqmqAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

p75 is particularly interesting.

Dean
1st November 2011, 16:54
Childish culturalist appeal to spiritualism. Yawn.

ComradeMan
1st November 2011, 17:01
Childish culturalist appeal to spiritualism. Yawn.

The word spirit only comes up four times in the whole book from a google contents search. Have you read it? I haven't as I have only just found out about it. What is your criticism?

hatzel
1st November 2011, 17:39
Stopped reading after:


Its what Ive said and someone else has written down. I will allow this because it seems that the only way to communicate with the white world is through the dead, dry leaves of a book. I dont really care whether my words reach whites or not. They have already demonstrated through their history that they cannot hear, cannot see; they can only read (of course, there are exceptions, but the exceptions only prove the rule).

*Joke alert*

I guess he's wrong, then...turns out whites can't read, ohoho, hilarity...:huh:

On a more serious note, it is true in contemporary Western culture that the written word surpasses all other forms of expression in terms of importance; the number of people who have had to write books in order to 'earn' their place as a university lecturer, for example, or merely to be taken seriously as scholars in the realm of academia, should stand as testament to this. This may bring into question the possibility of those from cultures where the written word isn't of such great importance penetrating the academic world, and thereafter the public consciousness. Of course in the modern day the spoken word, in the form of lectures and the like, can be widely distributed through such outlets as YouTube, but at the time when Means was(n't) writing this (1980), being taken seriously by a wide audience was reliant on writing. Or, more precisely, on being published. This would be effective in keeping non-literary cultures out of the spotlight, as even transcribed speeches may not be deemed 'fit for publication' in 'white'/Western literary journals and publishing houses, either for their content or for purely stylistic reasons, there being a certain expectation of academic writing which non-literary cultures may not be able to imitate.

Dean
1st November 2011, 18:19
The word spirit only comes up four times in the whole book from a google contents search. Have you read it? I haven't as I have only just found out about it. What is your criticism?
The article hinges on the notion of European culture as a distinct entity encompassing all of its canon as purely and solely European. It doesn't take a lot of research to see how this is non-factual - Asian culture has been so influential on European culture as to be the real root of rationalism (Hittite culture, Middle Eastern if not Asian depending on definitions).

The thing is that rationalism, and indeed all of its subsequent ideological tendencies, is not unique to Europe or Asia or whatever. It's just the history of ideas; how many times have you become convinced of a theory or attitude about something that you see repeated in an article or paper?

But the fact is that Native Americans have been subsumed into an economy defined by the relations to the means of production, and more broadly, the relations to the land and the political process, all of which follow the ethnographic tendency of European dominance. The writer concludes that because Europeans are in control of global capitalism, it is only its character as European that makes it what it is.

In short, it is spiritualist/mysticist, the notion that human beings are external to the material world. It's not the case. Native American Capitalism might look different depending on conditions, but it would fundamentally follow the same rules of surplus-value accumulation and the exploitation of labor.

In fact, I see nothing to refute this point. I haven't read the whole thing, obviously, but if the book is more of the same, it is meaningless tripe attempting to attack Marxism by associating itself with an historical underclass - the Native Americans. Leftists get stumped, of course, since it is orthodox to defend the victims. But you oughta be keenly aware, given your interests, of cases like Hamas-run media whose conclusions on culture can be just as prejudicial.

Agnapostate
1st November 2011, 19:00
The Peruvian Marxist Jos Carlos Maritegui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Carlos_Mari%C3%A1tegui) claimed that, "The soul of the Indian is not raised by the white man’s civilization or alphabet but by the myth, the idea, of the Socialist revolution. The hope of the Indian is absolutely revolutionary. That same myth, that same idea, are the decisive agents in the awakening of other ancient peoples or races in ruin: the Hindus, the Chinese, et cetera. Universal history today tends as never before to chart its course with a common quadrant. Why should the Inca people, who constructed the most highly-developed and harmonious communistic system, be the only ones unmoved by this worldwide emotion?"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/mariateg/works/1928/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/mariateg/works/1928/essay03.htm


If the historical evidence of Inca communism is not sufficiently convincing, the “community”—the specific organ of that communism—should dispel any doubt. The “despotism” of the Incas, however, has offended the scruples of some of our present-day liberals. I want to restate here the defense that I made of Inca communism and refute the most recent liberal thesis, presented by Augusto Aguirre Morales in his novel El pueblo del sol.

Modern communism is different from Inca communism. This is the first thing that must be learned and understood by the scholar who delves into Tawantinsuyo. The two communisms are products of different human experiences. They belong to different historical epochs. They were evolved by dissimilar civilizations. The Inca civilization was agrarian; the civilization of Marx and Sorel is industrial. In the former, man submitted to nature; in the latter, nature sometimes submits to man. It is therefore absurd to compare the forms and institutions of the two communisms. All that can be compared is their essential and material likeness, within the essential and material difference of time and space. And this comparison requires a certain degree of historical relativism. Otherwise, one is sure to commit the error made by Victor Andres Belaunde when he attempted a comparison of this kind.

The chroniclers of the conquest and of the colonial period viewed the indigenous panorama with medieval eyes. Their testimony cannot be accepted at face value.

Their judgments were strictly in keeping with their Spanish and Catholic points of view. But Aguirre Morales is also the victim of fallacious reasoning. His position in the study of the Inca empire is not a relativist one. Aguirre considers and examines the empire with liberal and individualist prejudices. And he believes that under the Incas, the people were enslaved and miserable because they lacked liberty.

Individual liberty is an aspect of the complex liberal philosophy. A realistic critic would define it as the legal basis of capitalist civilization. (Without free will, there would be no free trade, free competition, or free enterprise.) An idealistic critic would define it as a gain made by the human spirit in modern times. In no case did this liberty fit into Inca life. The man of Tawantinsuyo felt absolutely no need of individual liberty—any more than he felt the need of a free press. A free press may be important to Aguirre Morales and to me, but the Indian could be happy without it.

The Indian’s life and spirit were not tormented by intellectual anxieties or creative pursuits. Nor were they concerned with the need to do business, make contracts, or engage in trade. Therefore what use would this liberty invented by our civilization be to the Indian? If the spirit of liberty was revealed to the Quechua, it was undoubtedly in a formula or rather in an emotion unlike the liberal, Jacobin, and individualist formula of liberty. The revelation of liberty, like the revelation of God, varies with age, country, and climate. To believe that the abstract idea of liberty is of the same substance as the concrete image of a liberty with a Phrygian cap—daughter of Protestantism and the French Revolution—is to be trapped by an illusion that may be due to a mere, but not disinterested, philosophical astigmatism of the bourgeoisie and of democracy.

Aguirre’s denial of the communist nature of the Inca society rests altogether on a mistaken belief. Aguirre assumes that autocracy and communism are irreconcilable. The Inca system, he says, was despotic and theocratic and, therefore, not communist. Although autocracy and communism are now incompatible, they were not so in primitive societies. Today, a new order cannot abjure any of the moral gains of modern society. Contemporary socialism —other historical periods have had other kinds of socialism under different names—is the antithesis of liberalism; but it is born from its womb and is nourished on its experiences. It does not disdain the intellectual achievements of liberalism, only its limitations. It appreciates and understands everything that is positive in the liberal ideal; it condemns and attacks what is negative and selfish in it.

The Inca regime was unquestionably theocratic and despotic. But these are traits common to all regimes of antiquity. Every monarchy in history has been supported by the religious faith of its people. Temporal and spiritual power have been but recently divorced; and it is more a separation of bodies than a divorce. Up to William of Hohenzollern, monarchs have invoked their divine right.

It is not possible to speak abstractly of tyranny. Tyranny is a concrete fact. It is real to the extent that it represses the will of the people and oppresses and stifles their life force. Often in ancient times an absolutist and theocratic regime has embodied and represented that will and force. This appears to have been the case in the Inca empire. I do not believe in the supernatural powers of the Incas. But their political ability is as self-evident as is their construction of an empire with human materials and moral elements amassed over the centuries. The ayllu—the community—was the nucleus of the empire. The Incas unified and created the empire, but they did not create its nucleus. The legal state organized by the Incas undoubtedly reproduced the natural pre-existing state. The Incas did not disrupt anything. Their work should be praised, not scorned and disparaged, as the expression and consequence of thousands of years and myriad elements.

The work of the people must not be depreciated, much less denied. Agui-rre, an individualistic writer, does not care about the history of the masses. His romantic gaze looks only for a hero. The remains of Inca civilization unanimously refute the charges of Aguirre Morales. The author of El pueblo del sol cites as evidence the thousands of huacos he has seen. Those huacos testify that Inca art was a popular art; and the best document left by the Inca civilization is surely its art. The stylized, synthesized ceramics of the Indians cannot have been produced by a crude or savage people.

James George Frazer—very remote spiritually and physically from the chroniclers of the colony—writes: “Nor, to remount the stream of history to its sources, is it an accident that all the first great strides towards civilisation have been made under despotic and theocratic governments, like those of Egypt, Babylon, and Peru, where the supreme ruler claimed and received the servile allegiance of his subjects in the double character of King and a god. It is hardly too much to say that at this early epoch despotism is the best friend of humanity and, paradoxical as it may sound, of liberty. For after all there is more liberty in the best sense—liberty to think our own thoughts and to fashion our own destinies—under the most absolute despotism, the most grinding tyranny, than under the apparent freedom of savage life, where the individual’s lot is cast from the cradle to the grave in the iron mould of hereditary custom.” The Golden Bough, abridged edition (London: Macmillan & Co., 1954), p. 48.

Aguirre Morales says that there was no theft in Inca society simply because of lack of imagination for wrongdoing. But this clever literary comment does not destroy a social reality that proves precisely what Aguirre insists on denying: Inca communism. The French economist Charles Gidj states that Proudhon’s famous phrase is less exact than the following one: “Theft is property.” In Inca society there was no theft because there was no property or, if you like, because there was a socialist organization of property.

We dispute and, if necessary, reject the testimony of colonial chroniclers. But Aguirre seeks support for his theory precisely in their medieval interpretation of the form and distribution of the land and its products.

The fruits of the earth cannot be hoarded. It is not credible, therefore, that two-thirds of the crops were taken over for the consumption of the officials and priests of the empire. It is much more likely that the crops supposedly reserved for the nobility were actually put into a state storehouse for social welfare, a typically and singularly socialist provision.
If I understand correctly, a similar position is adopted by Abimael Guzman and Sendero Luminoso.

ScarletSojourner
5th November 2011, 21:14
He doesn't even know what Marxism is.

And criticizing marxism on the basis that it's 'western' is 100% reactionary.

Fascist even. I believe Russell Means is a friend of Alex Jones.

Ocean Seal
6th November 2011, 22:12
Essentially the point that he tries to make is that Marxism is a European ideology which takes away from Amerindian culture. And of course like most third way politics, he postulates something rather extreme which won't catch on. And again, like most third way politics, its not worth much.


There is another way. There is the traditional Lakota way and the ways of the American Indian peoples. It is the way that knows that humans do not have the right to degrade Mother Earth, that there are forces beyond anything the European mind has conceived, that humans must be in harmony with all relations or the relations will eventually eliminate the disharmony.

Bud Struggle
6th November 2011, 22:21
Essentially the point that he tries to make is that Marxism is a European ideology which takes away from Amerindian culture. And of course like most third way politics, he postulates something rather extreme which won't catch on. And again, like most third way politics, its not worth much.

Us being all European Americans definitely don't think much of that sort of stuff!

You would have thought the first European Imperialialist would have explained thing properly to these folks.

Os Cangaceiros
7th November 2011, 02:26
If I understand correctly, a similar position is adopted by Abimael Guzman and Sendero Luminoso.


Guzman didn't have much interest in "Inca communism", actually.

Stew312856
8th November 2011, 13:23
Interesting thread.

I would first quote Engels, who said the goal of Communism was the abolition of private property.

The conundrum here is that Native Americans (at least here in the North Atlantic region) HAD no concept of property PERIOD. They had tribal hunting grounds which they would war over, but they didn't own the land in their theology, they were merely living on it. So the first instance where we imposed European culture on them was by imposing property concepts, the commodifying of land, which is of course the germ of capitalism but not capitalism itself.

This dialogue, as such, is arguing over whether we should enforce socialism on a society which has no need for socialism because it already reached the classless society stage AFTER socialism (here in North East, not able to speak for S. American slave-capturing societies).

Kinda silly...

Agnapostate
9th November 2011, 02:56
The conundrum here is that Native Americans (at least here in the North Atlantic region) HAD no concept of property PERIOD. They had tribal hunting grounds which they would war over, but they didn't own the land in their theology, they were merely living on it. So the first instance where we imposed European culture on them was by imposing property concepts, the commodifying of land, which is of course the germ of capitalism but not capitalism itself.

"The North Atlantic region" would correspond to the Northeast cultural region.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Nordamerikanische_Kulturareale_en.png/800px-Nordamerikanische_Kulturareale_en.png

Native Americans in this cultural regions weren't exclusively hunters; they did practice agriculture that had been originally diffused from Mesoamerica. The crop trinity of maize, beans, and squash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_%28agriculture%29) was regarded by the Iroquois as the "three sisters," for example.

Their distribution of land plots was perhaps not "private property" since it was apparently based on crop cultivation, i.e. active use, but it was based on familial ownership, not some broad concept of tribal communal ownership.