Difference between socialist parties

[Skammunist]

With all the socialist parties out there, I just wanted to narrow it down to three: the Socialist Workers Party, the Socialist Party, and the Socialist Alternative. What are the main differences between these three? Are they not all Trotsky-leaning?

The reason I ask is because I know people from both the SP and the SWP. I met friends from the SWP first, and it seemed that they were revolutionary and didn't find the USSR socialist. I then met people from the SP at my local Occupy Tampa and they said they were democratic socialists. I asked them about violence, and they said it was possible for the revolution to be nonviolent. So is that what it comes down to, the SWP is revolutionary and the SP is not?

Lastly, I know someone else who would like to start a branch of the Socialist Alternative. What is the difference between them and the SP/SWP? It just puzzles me why there are so many socialist parties when the members down here are so few.

[thesadmafioso]

The SWP, so far as I know, hasn't really upheld the work or thought of Trotsky for quite some time. I believe they have hold to an incredibly fringe like interpretation of some of his writings, but it is very limited and separate from the traditional currents of Trotskyism.

As for the SP, they are an incredibly diverse bunch ideologically so it is rather hard to classify them one way or the other. Yeah, you will run into a handful of revolutionists every now and then, but they are in a minority and the party is pretty staunchly in the camp of democratic socialism.

Our of those, I would say Socialist Alternative is probably the only group that fits the title of being Trotskyist, but I think you are overlooking a lot of really great parties by limiting yourself to just these three seemingly peculiar choices. In the US, I know that the CWI has a pretty lackluster operation going so far as their analysis and immediate use of theory is concerned. They even had some people in from Europe at their NYC branch not too long ago to sort of bolster their ranks, which I think says something to the state of their organization in the states. Plus, they have a habit of getting lost in the ebbs and flows of activist movements and tend to forsake actual long term participation in the course of the workers struggle. When given a choice of working directly in the trenches of labor or getting lost in something like the occupation movement, they go in for the later more often than they should.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of their demands and most of their theory is quite well organized from what I've seen, it's just that they seem to have some issues actually applying it to practice.

But I digress, best of luck in finding a group that works for you and in getting involved.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

The SWP haven't been Trots for decades now. Actually - and graymouser can go into more detail on this - I believe Socialist Action was formed by people who split from the SWP when they abandoned Trotskyism. The Socialist Party doesn't really belong in the same category as the other two parties, as SWP and SAlt are focused on cadre building and are thoroughly revolutionary organizations, while the SP is focused on getting ballot access and having a lot of paper members of which a few actually do any real organizing.

Some Trot Groups in the US:
Socialist Alternative (http://socialistalternative.org/about/) - No Branches in the South
Socialist Organizer (http://www2.socialistorganizer.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1) - I'm not sure they have branches outside of California
Socialist Action (http://www.socialistaction.org/aboutus.htm) - I'm not sure where they have branches in the US, but I've not heard of them being in the south.
International Socialist Organization (http://www.internationalsocialist.org/branches.html) - Has branches throughout the south. Branch in Gainesville and one forming in Miami.

[ZeroNowhere]

The differences between the three parties is in many ways akin to the differences between shit emitted normally, with diarrhoea and when constipated.

[eric922]

The SWP haven't been Trots for decades now. Actually - and graymouser can go into more detail on this - I believe Socialist Action was formed by people who split from the SWP when they abandoned Trotskyism. The Socialist Party doesn't really belong in the same category as the other two parties, as SWP and SAlt are focused on cadre building and are thoroughly revolutionary organizations, while the SP is focused on getting ballot access and having a lot of paper members of which a few actually do any real organizing.

Some Trot Groups in the US:
Socialist Alternative (http://socialistalternative.org/about/) - No Branches in the South
Socialist Organizer (http://www2.socialistorganizer.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1) - I'm not sure they have branches outside of California
Socialist Action (http://www.socialistaction.org/aboutus.htm) - I'm not sure where they have branches in the US, but I've not heard of them being in the south.
International Socialist Organization (http://www.internationalsocialist.org/branches.html) - Has branches throughout the south. Branch in Gainesville and one forming in Miami.
The people from SWP I've talked to claim to be part of the ISO, so is the ISO any better than SWP?

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

You can't be a member of both the SWP and the ISO, they have different politics. Namely, the ISO doesn't think that any nation has achieved socialism and ascribes to the State-Capitalist theory, while the SWP thinks Cuba is a fucking Utopia and serves essentially as the American branch of the Cuban Communist Party.

[eric922]

You can't be a member of both the SWP and the ISO, they have different politics. Namely, the ISO doesn't think that any nation has achieved socialism and ascribes to the State-Capitalist theory, while the SWP thinks Cuba is a fucking Utopia and serves essentially as the American branch of the Cuban Communist Party.
Okay, thanks. Clearly the guy I've been talking to is confused and doesn't know his party's history, because he claims the Socialist Worker Party he is part of is part of the ISO, and follows Trotskyism.

[The Douche]

Okay, thanks. Clearly the guy I've been talking to is confused and doesn't know his party's history, because he claims the Socialist Worker Party he is part of is part of the ISO, and follows Trotskyism.

The ISO is (was?) the sister group to the British SWP.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

The SWP isn't even part of the Fourth International anymore. They operate the Pathfinder Tendency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_tendency) and no longer support most of the theories which make up Trotskyism. The Pathfinder Tendency is also known as the International Communist League, maybe your friend meant to say that?

Oh, what cmoney mentioned is another possible confusion. I was assuming you were talking about the American SWP as that's what the OP was talking about, maybe your friend is talking about the British SWP.

[Welshy]

Okay, thanks. Clearly the guy I've been talking to is confused and doesn't know his party's history, because he claims the Socialist Worker Party he is part of is part of the ISO, and follows Trotskyism.

He might have been talking about the ISO's newspaper/website for the newspaper, which is called Socialist Worker.

[eric922]

He might have been talking about the ISO's newspaper/website for the newspaper, which is called Socialist Worker.
Yeah the newspaper he gave me is the called Socialist Worker,and he says they are part of the ISO. I'll have to talk to him more about it, because he seems fairly orthodox in his Trotskyism so it is possible he doesn't know fully understand the views of the SWP or he is just assuming his party's name based of their newspaper.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Socialist Worker is the newspaper of the ISO. If they gave you that then they are probably part of the ISO. If they don't know that the ISO isn't the same thing as the SWP, they might be a new contact or some-such. What area are you from?

[ZeroNowhere]

Socialist Worker is the newspaper of the ISO. If they gave you that then they are probably part of the ISO.God, things are so much simpler in the UK. Here, if somebody gives you the Socialist Worker, it's because they're from the Socialist Workers' Party; the converse also applies.

[eric922]

Socialist Worker is the newspaper of the ISO. If they gave you that then they are probably part of the ISO. If they don't know that the ISO isn't the same thing as the SWP, they might be a new contact or some-such. What area are you from?
Tennessee. The guy I'm taking to is trying to organize a chapter here. He also gave me a flyer he got from the ISO regional conference so he is probably simply a new member and is confused.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Mayhaps. I know a guy in Tennessee who is a longer term member. Shoot me a PM.

[eyeheartlenin]

The SWP isn't even part of the Fourth International anymore. They operate the Pathfinder Tendency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_tendency) and no longer support most of the theories which make up Trotskyism. The Pathfinder Tendency is also known as the International Communist League, maybe your friend meant to say that?

With all due respect to cde I. Ezkerreko, I am pretty sure that the International Communist League http://www.icl-fi.org/ is the formal name of the tendency led by the Spartacist League (in the US).

The SWP leads the "Pathfinder Tendency" because what the (US) SWP mainly does is peddle books (Pathfinder being the SWP's publishing house), and I cannot think of another left-wing organization or tendency, now or in history, whose work consisted overwhelmingly in trying to sell books (though the Grantists, i.e., the "Marxist" tendency, and the [US] ISO, do a lot of publishing). When I was a student, the SWP played a leading role in building the movement against the war in Viet Nam, but, some years ago, it ceased to be active in mass movements, as far as I can tell.

From what I have read, it appears that the Spartacists in the US may well disappear in the next decade.

[Crux]

With all the socialist parties out there, I just wanted to narrow it down to three: the Socialist Workers Party, the Socialist Party, and the Socialist Alternative. What are the main differences between these three? Are they not all Trotsky-leaning?

The reason I ask is because I know people from both the SP and the SWP. I met friends from the SWP first, and it seemed that they were revolutionary and didn't find the USSR socialist. I then met people from the SP at my local Occupy Tampa and they said they were democratic socialists. I asked them about violence, and they said it was possible for the revolution to be nonviolent. So is that what it comes down to, the SWP is revolutionary and the SP is not?

Lastly, I know someone else who would like to start a branch of the Socialist Alternative. What is the difference between them and the SP/SWP? It just puzzles me why there are so many socialist parties when the members down here are so few.
As has been said before the SP is a mixed bunch, but they certainly have a relatively strong social democratic wing.

SWP/Pathfinder owns a nice selection of original translations of Trotsky's work. They also threatened to sue the Marxist Internet Archive when they used their translation. I think just that says alot. Besides their view of Cuba is indistinguishable from the stalinists. And their international organization curiously all sell The Militant.

I am of course biased, being in the CWI, but I definatly think Socialist Alternative is the best choice.

Here's the scoop on Pathfinder Press attempt to sue MIA. (http://www.cddc.vt.edu/marxists/admin/legal/disputes/pathfinder/suit.htm)

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

With all due respect to cde I. Ezkerreko, I am pretty sure that the International Communist League http://www.icl-fi.org/ is the formal name of the tendency led by the Spartacist League (in the US).

The SWP leads the "Pathfinder Tendency" because what the (US) SWP mainly does is peddle books (Pathfinder being the SWP's publishing house), and I cannot think of another left-wing organization or tendency, now or in history, whose work consisted overwhelmingly in trying to sell books (though the Grantists, i.e., the "Marxist" tendency, and the [US] ISO, do a lot of publishing.) When I was a student, the SWP played a leading role in building the movement against the war in Viet Nam, but, some years ago, it ceased to be active in mass movements, as far as I can tell.

From what I have read, it appears that the Spartacists in the US may well disappear in the next decade.

I was going by Wiki, which claims that it is called the International Communist League because all the international branches are called "Communist League", but they could be blowing smoke.

As far as the Sparts go, that assessment is probably true.

Also, the difference between our publishing and that of the SWP is that we don't have our own bookstores or use the ability to hawk a paper or book to judge the worthiness of an action.

[Skammunist]

Thanks for the replies guys, lots of info. I think I will stick with the Socialist Alternative now without totally breaking apart from the SWP. Reason being that the SWP seems too focused on selling their papers, and their copyrighting of leftist literature being a big problem for me. The SP seems to broad, and sounds like it would just result in a lot of infighting. So SA is all that is left for me! Hopefully it becomes successful down here in Florida.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

For what its worth..

The US SWP (not to be confused with the UK SWP) were the original US Trotskyists. They officially broke away from Trotskyism under their current leader, Jack Barnes as they aligned with Castro. Many critics and former SWPers say this came after a long period of internal degeneration. There is a yahoo group of former SWP members and Louis Proyect has written about this on his blog.The SWP still has the copyright on the classic Trotskyist literature which they guard jealously.According to one account the SWP, once the second largest comunist party in the US, is now down to a hundred people.Most of the US Trotskyist and semi-Trotskyist groups came from a series of splits from the SWP, at different stages

The ISO has a fascinating history. They are 'Cliffites", regarding the fSU and "socialist" states as being state capitalist rather than "deformed worker's states". They have a number of interesting writers connected with them, including (I believe) Mike Davis. They work their members very hard and have a high turnover.Their paper is the Socialist Worker (yeah, it gets confusing).I was in the ISO for a time but I'm now in SA.
The ISO was aligned/connected to the British SWP (although they originated independently) but were expelled by the parent organisation.

Socialist Alternative is (in my opinion) the US organisation closest to Trotsky's original ideas.We defend Cuba from imperialism while also advocate a worker's revolution in Cuba.

I know the comrade in Florida. He's a cool guy. Good luck!

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

SAlt is probably the largest active Trot group in the US apart from the ISO. Most of the others seem very small. It's probably the closest group in the US to my politics apart from the ISO, so it growing is good in my mind. More socialist groups need to expand into the South.

[eric922]

SAlt is probably the largest active Trot group in the US apart from the ISO. Most of the others seem very small. It's probably the closest group in the US to my politics apart from the ISO, so it growing is good in my mind. More socialist groups need to expand into the South.
We are making some progress down here. It is slow work considering the very conservative nature of the region, but some progress is better than none.

[The Douche]

SAlt is probably the largest active Trot group in the US apart from the ISO. Most of the others seem very small. It's probably the closest group in the US to my politics apart from the ISO, so it growing is good in my mind. More socialist groups need to expand into the South.

Pretty sure ISO is bigger than SAlt, but are mostly campus based.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I think that's what I said. "...apart from the ISO." And we actually have done most of our expansion in the past couple years off-campus.

[The Douche]

I think that's what I said. "...apart from the ISO." And we actually have done most of our expansion in the past couple years off-campus.

Yup, misread.