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View Full Version : `I told you so` say German Marxists of bank crisis



Die Neue Zeit
30th October 2011, 06:33
[Wrong attitude to be expressed before the media, but without further adieu]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/27/us-eurozone-germany-marxists-idUSTRE79Q51Q20111027



By Erik Kirschbaum

Die-hard Marxists and others raised in formerly Communist east Germany feel Europe's sovereign debt crisis has vindicated their once-ridiculed warnings about the perils of unbridled capitalism.

Calls to shackle the banks in this bastion of Western consumerism are finding an increasingly receptive audience among Germans, some of whom now wonder whether their cash is safer under the mattress than in a bank.

Even mainstream conservatives are asking if the Left might not have been right all along, potentially boosting the prospects of more radical parties with less than two years to go to German elections.

European leaders struck a deal with private banks on Thursday to try to contain the debt crisis but doubts about the global financial system linger in Berlin, a city split by the Cold War that has witnessed an improbable revival of interest in Karl Marx since the financial crisis began in 2008.

"These banks have a ludicrous business model and it's extremely dangerous for us all," said Sahra Wagenknecht, a member of parliament and a fiery leader of the Left party that traces its roots to Erich Honecker's SED party.

"They're pulling the wool over the eyes of taxpayers," she said to thunderous applause in a recent German TV talk show, adding that for example only about four percent of Deutsche Bank's business is traditional commercial lending.

"Everything else is bets, gambling and speculation. They take risks because they know the state will bail them out. It's time everyone realized it can't go on otherwise we'll need one rescue package after another and even Germany will be broke."

Skepticism about U.S.-style capitalism was already deeply entrenched in Communist East Germany, a country with no unemployment and no competing banks.

And while some of the criticism may be traced to "Ostalgie" -- a romanticized view of the old East Germany that skips over the secret police and repression -- Wagenkneckt's critics acknowledge that her anti-capital arguments are gaining new backers across Germany.

"Marx goes mainstream," the conservative newspaper Die Welt noted of the way Wagenknecht's views now command respect or at least a respectful audience compared to scorn a decade ago.

"Hardly anyone contradicts her radical attacks on capitalism anymore," it wrote.

"I TOLD YOU SO"

Worries about the future of capitalism can be heard across Berlin and especially in leftist bastions in the east, where some streets still bear the names of Communist legends such as Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels and even Vladimir Lenin.

A sense of "I told you so" prevails in eastern Berlin, a section of the capital that still has the unmistakable feel of an Eastern bloc city with its vast parade grounds and Soviet-style pre-fabricated high rise apartment buildings.

"It's just a nasty situation pure and simple," said Constanze Voelmy, 50, a waitress who like many easterners grew up learning about the evils of capitalism while at the same time aware of the West's prosperity.

"We were all warned about the dangers of capitalism and now reality is catching up with us. I didn't think it was possible that states could go broke. I'm now thinking maybe I should take my money out of the bank and put it under the mattress."

Astrid Gerber, 45, was a tailor in East Germany and now works cleaning offices. She said hardly anyone in the east paid much attention to money and hardly anyone ever borrowed money.

"I earned enough to pay the rent and live comfortably," she said. "You just didn't think or worry about money. That's all changed now. That's all anyone ever talks about."

MAYBE LEFT HAS IT RIGHT

German intellectuals are also listening more closely to views on banks by people like Wagenknecht and the Left party.

"I'm beginning to believe that the Left might have it right," was the headline over a recent article by Frank Schirrmacher, co-publisher of the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.

"The doubts are growing about whether I've been holding the correct views all my life. It now looks like the assumptions of my greatest opponents were right all along...A decade of unchecked financial markets has revitalized leftist views. They're back now and they're needed."

He is not the only conservative worried about financial markets. Former German President Horst Koehler raised eyebrows in 2008 when he referred to financial markets as "a monster" that had to be tamed.

Michael Schlecht, the finance policy expert for the Left party in parliament, said the mood has shifted. He wants all banks nationalized in Germany. He said four or five years ago he faced ridicule whenever he broached the subject.

"But people are eager to hear that message now -- that the shackles need to be put on banks," Schlecht said. "They applaud when they hear the bank's casino-style operations must be stopped, that derivatives and speculation need to be banned."

Os Cangaceiros
30th October 2011, 06:46
It actually didn't exactly take a prophetic foresight to predict what happened to the banks when 2008 rolled around. A lot of people predicted what was going to happen, including "free market economists".

Die Neue Zeit
30th October 2011, 06:51
But only one electoral party in Germany has committed itself to nationalizing the entire banking system, among many other things, and reaffirmed this commitment in Erfurt last weekend. It sure isn't the Green Party or even the Pirate Party.

GatesofLenin
30th October 2011, 07:05
Nationalizing the banks would be a great start. The private-held banks have had too long a run at a system with no regulations -- it's the freaking wild west for them and there's no sheriff in town. I'm guessing alot of rich people are panicking now, imagine the banks are forced to come clean about their shady dealings that robbed nations of much-needed tax revenue. Love him or hate him, you can't say Lenin didn't warn us of private banking practices.

GatesofLenin
30th October 2011, 07:07
But only one electoral party in Germany has committed itself to nationalizing the entire banking system, among many other things, and reaffirmed this commitment in Erfurt last weekend. It sure isn't the Green Party or even the Pirate Party.

I've lost hope in all the green parties around the world, bunch of green capitalists is all they are. Punish the poor but let the rich pollute en-masse.

Veovis
30th October 2011, 07:26
http://www.politicaldick.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/karl-marx-theory-of-i-told-you-so.jpg

Threetune
30th October 2011, 10:14
It actually didn't exactly take a prophetic foresight to predict what happened to the banks when 2008 rolled around. A lot of people predicted what was going to happen, including "free market economists".

Oh really, can you give us some examples of who on the ‘left’ was making such predictions along with the "free market economists".

Decommissioner
30th October 2011, 10:32
http://www.politicaldick.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/karl-marx-theory-of-i-told-you-so.jpg

This would be a good image to flyer around cities. It would at least get people talking.

Per Levy
30th October 2011, 11:04
But only one electoral party in Germany has committed itself to nationalizing the entire banking system, among many other things, and reaffirmed this commitment in Erfurt last weekend. It sure isn't the Green Party or even the Pirate Party.

the problem with this party is of course that it doesnt act like it says, everytime they particepated in a goverment they sold out, see berlin, see mecklenburg. the spd also advocated "democratic socialism" for the longest time but never took one step to that goal. its the same with die linke, they can say a lot about nationalizing the banks(and what not) when they know that they will never do it anyway.

maskerade
30th October 2011, 23:04
the problem with this party is of course that it doesnt act like it says, everytime they particepated in a goverment they sold out, see berlin, see mecklenburg. the spd also advocated "democratic socialism" for the longest time but never took one step to that goal. its the same with die linke, they can say a lot about nationalizing the banks(and what not) when they know that they will never do it anyway.

Have they ever been in a position where it would be realistic for them to do so? ie have they governed anywhere in Germany when they were the majority in a coalition or by themselves? Just wondering, I don't know much about German politics.

Also I'm guessing there would be an incredible amount of resistance from capitalists if those demands would ever be raised in a proper forum, and I don't think the left is yet prepared to defend themselves against such resistance.

socialistjustin
31st October 2011, 00:16
Oh really, can you give us some examples of who on the ‘left’ was making such predictions along with the "free market economists".

I am pretty sure guys like Roubini and Krugman were warning of this before it happened. Maybe even Dean Baker as well. Not sure if they would be considered free market economists, but could be considered bourgeois economists.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
31st October 2011, 02:17
Nationalising the banks isn't a radical measure in itself.

Many of the UKs banks are still owned in part by teh governmnent.

Nationalisation is pointless unless accompanied by a Socialist governing force; nationalisation can still work in favour of the bourgeoisie against the working class.

The state =/= Socialism. It's a tool of Capitalism.

ZeroNowhere
31st October 2011, 02:25
Nationalising the banks isn't a radical measure in itself.

Many of the UKs banks are still owned in part by teh governmnent.

Nationalisation is pointless unless accompanied by a Socialist governing force; nationalisation can still work in favour of the bourgeoisie against the working class.

The state =/= Socialism. It's a tool of Capitalism.
But life wouldn't be quite as fun if we couldn't discuss how Chavez should nationalize the banks.

Crux
31st October 2011, 03:24
Oh really, can you give us some examples of who on the ‘left’ was making such predictions along with the "free market economists".
Two artilces from Lynn Walsh of the Socialist Party (CWI England & Wales):
"Speculative activity surges in the global economy" from 24/04/2005 (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/1707)
and
(http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/2748)"Forever blowing bubbles? What is happening to the world economy?" (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/2748) from 18/05/2007

Threetune
31st October 2011, 11:23
It actually didn't exactly take a prophetic foresight to predict what happened to the banks when 2008 rolled around. A lot of people predicted what was going to happen, including "free market economists".


Oh really, can you give us some examples of who on the ‘left’ was making such predictions along with the "free market economists".


Two artilces from Lynn Walsh of the Socialist Party (CWI England & Wales):

"Speculative activity surges in the global economy" from 24/04/2005 (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/1707)
and
"Forever blowing bubbles? What is happening to the world economy?" (http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/2748) from 18/05/2007

Exactly! Lynn Walsh’s excellent academic pieces make my point better than I did.

The two pieces you posted correctly DO NOT “predict what happened to the banks when 2008 rolled around.”, As ‘Explosive Situation’ says. I have bolded the original NONE PREDICTIONS in context ‘for the avoidance of doubt.’
Speculative activity surges in the global economy

www.socialistworld.net, 24/04/2005
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI

“…Yet, a growing number fear that a reality check is not far away. “The range of voices expressing concern has widened. ‘The next time around is going to come sooner rather than later’, says Paul Kirk, head of global restructuring at PwC, the professional services firm. ‘The investment goals that are being pursued right now have nothing to do with business fundamentals’.” (Roberts, The end of the party?)”
“…When will it happen? If only we could say. But the strategy of a growing number of capitalists is “to gather more cash and wait for it to go bang”. (Roberts)
Forever blowing bubbles? What is happening to the world economy?

www.socialistworld.net, 18/05/2007
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI
Financial bubbles and the overaccumulation of capital
Lynn Walsh, Editor, Socialism Today

“The bubble phenomenon, however, can only postpone crises, not eliminate them. Crises will unavoidably erupt when the underlying contradictions of the system assert themselves decisively. The longer they are postponed, the deeper they are likely to be. Regrettably, it is not possible to predict the timing of crises or the particular processes and pathways through which they will unfold. But the idea that speculative investment is now virtually risk free, that the capitalist business cycle is dead, are the delusions of people intoxicated by the fizzy profits of the recent period.”

What is also “Regrettable” is that when Lynn Walsh was giving out some correct and timely warnings of the depth and magnitude of the unfolding crisis, the popular paper of her ‘Socialist Party’ was still hammering out the same old economist reformist messages – and it still is.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
31st October 2011, 20:02
I suppose Lenin would have predicted the financial crash and the resulting real economy recession to the year, month or even day.:rolleyes:

Stop being ridiculous, threetune. You cannot revise the evidence that has been put in front of you, and by trying to do so you are coming across as an idiot.

Threetune
31st October 2011, 21:40
I suppose Lenin would have predicted the financial crash and the resulting real economy recession to the year, month or even day.:rolleyes:

Stop being ridiculous, threetune. You cannot revise the evidence that has been put in front of you, and by trying to do so you are coming across as an idiot.



This must be Trick or Treat. OK Troll, give me a treat and come back with an explanation of this“evidence”:


“…When will it happen? If only we could say.” Lynn Walsh www.socialistworld.net (http://www.socialistworld.net), 24/04/2005

“Regrettably, it is not possible to predict the timing of crises or the particular processes and pathways through which they will unfold.” Lynn Walsh www.socialistworld.net (http://www.socialistworld.net), 18/05/2007

Lynn Walsh is correct, it's you chaps who are wrongly using her speech to support your own confusion. :laugh: Ask her for her opinion if you want to prove a point. :lol:

Thirsty Crow
31st October 2011, 23:38
the problem with this party is of course that it doesnt act like it says, everytime they particepated in a goverment they sold out, see berlin, see mecklenburg. the spd also advocated "democratic socialism" for the longest time but never took one step to that goal. its the same with die linke, they can say a lot about nationalizing the banks(and what not) when they know that they will never do it anyway.
That's the problem with all self-professed revolutionary organizations whose activities are based solely on a rigid adherence to parliamentary cretinism. Not only that there is a gap between the rhetoric and the actions, but these organizations are counter-revolutionary. All nice and pretty talk of nationalizing the banks cannot substitute the real necessity of an independent and radical working class movement directly confronting the power of the bourgeois state, and I don't think that it's necessary to emphasize how parliamentary games function with respect to the possibilities for such developments.

Rafiq
3rd November 2011, 23:19
Sadly around here this wouldn't fly very well. The town that my school is in is in denial about everything. It's actually quite bizarre. (Well, the town is kind of a baston for the Bourgeoisie and the Petite Bourgeoisie, not many workers live here except the janitors, store clerks, etc. but they get no representation anyway).

Good thing I don't live there though, as the town I live in is prominently proletarian. I'm glad to see that recognition of Marx's validity is growing around Western Europe, though.