A Thought Exercise...successfuly Communist Revolution in Germany immediately post-WWI

[Cambyses]

Imagine that the workers' struggles, manifested in the naval mutiny at Kiel and the Spartacists, leads to a successful communist revolution in Germany. If you want a specific point of divergence from actual history, let's assume that the Spartacists wipe out the Ebert government during the Christmas Crisis of 1918, thereby leading to a successful communist revolution.

What I want to discuss is how will communism in Germany develop. Obviously we will not see Lenninism, but what? How closely will it follow the works of Marx. The man who pinpointed Germany as an optimal incubus for the first Communist Revolution.

Keep in mind that the Treaty of Versailles has been signed, and the Weimar Republic owes the allies a lot of marks in reparations. France showed in 1923 that they were not shy about making sure the payments were made. The allies also did not hesitate to intervene in revolutions, as occurred in the Russian Civil War when they supported the whites. So this form of Communism will also have to deal with foreign entanglements from the onset, but it does have a developed industrial base untouched by World War I (though obviously as a country that suffered so many deaths, they are still shaken to their core).

Speaking of the Russian, feel free to speculate how Communism there might develop when it is one of two concurrent revolutions rather than the first revolution. Or maybe if you are feeling really adventurous, how might the French, British, Italian, and American Workers movements respond to this alternative development?

P.S.
My apologies if I put this in the wrong forum. I am new here.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The Spartacists were too tiny to make a difference in 1918. Only the USPD could have been propelled to power:

"All Power to Independent Social Democracy": the possibilities of 1918 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/all-power-independent-t155105/index.html)

[GatesofLenin]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the German Communist Party huge post-1918? I remember reading about the constant fighting between the Reds and the security arm of the National Socialists (Nazi). If the Communists had formed the majority party in Germany, we wouldn't have Hitler and his henchmen. Imagine no WW2 and the world would be a whole lot different than it is today.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The KPD would never have grown had the left majority of the USPD not made the mistake in the Halle Congress of joining those very same folks who tried to pull the organizational rug from beneath them. The USPD provided the opportunity to organize independently of the Russian fan club that was the "Comintern."

Even at its 1920s peak, the KPD didn't reach the size of the USPD.

[promethean]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the German Communist Party huge post-1918? I remember reading about the constant fighting between the Reds and the security arm of the National Socialists (Nazi). If the Communists had formed the majority party in Germany, we wouldn't have Hitler and his henchmen. Imagine no WW2 and the world would be a whole lot different than it is today.
You have probably heard wrong. Unfortunately, there was not much fighting between the KPD (Communist Party of Germany) and the Nazis. The KPD in fact collaborated with the Nazis to bring about the eventual demise of the Weimar state. Ruth Fischer, one of the leaders of the KPD, glorified the "German fatherland" in debates with Nazis.

Apparently there was a lot of nationalism showing up in the workers movement in Germany especially after World War I. This was probably because of the nationalist feelings brought about by the the Treaty of Versailles. The left communist KAPD, which followed the best strategy and had the best political analysis of events in Germany at the time, being composed of about 95% workers, even had to expel a National Bolshevik tendency from its party in 1920.

[Искра]

You have probably heard wrong. Unfortunately, there was not much fighting between the KPD (Communist Party of Germany) and the Nazis. The KPD in fact collaborated with the Nazis to bring about the eventual demise of the Weimar state. Ruth Fischer, one of the leaders of the KPD, glorified the "German fatherland" in debates with Nazis.
This was before Peoples front strategy. Communist Party of Yugoslavia also supported one fascist uprising.

[tir1944]

Communist Party of Yugoslavia also supported one fascist uprising. i
Which one?

[promethean]

This was before Peoples front strategy. Communist Party of Yugoslavia also supported one fascist uprising.
This is correct. KPD collaborated with the Nazis before the latter attained control of the state. The Weimar state was succeeded by the Nazi state in 1933, when Third Period Stalinism was in force and the KPD adopted the slogan, Nach Hitler, Uns ("After Hitler, Us"), once again aiding the Nazis. This was at around the time when the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed with the Germans. The People's Front strategy came much later. The Russian state after the 1917 revolution always continued to have extensive diplomatic and military links with the German state. The Treaty of Rapallo, signalling military collaboration between the two states, followed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. The Treaty of Rapallo was just after the SPD-led government had undertaken the mass slaughter of communists who participated in the failed German revolution. Therefore, Stalin's later collaboration with the Nazis comes as no big surprise.

[Cambyses]

So no ideas on what shape Communism might have taken in Germany?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Whatever program the inter-war USPD had.

[GatesofLenin]

You have probably heard wrong. Unfortunately, there was not much fighting between the KPD (Communist Party of Germany) and the Nazis. The KPD in fact collaborated with the Nazis to bring about the eventual demise of the Weimar state. Ruth Fischer, one of the leaders of the KPD, glorified the "German fatherland" in debates with Nazis.

Apparently there was a lot of nationalism showing up in the workers movement in Germany especially after World War I. This was probably because of the nationalist feelings brought about by the the Treaty of Versailles. The left communist KAPD, which followed the best strategy and had the best political analysis of events in Germany at the time, being composed of about 95% workers, even had to expel a National Bolshevik tendency from its party in 1920.

Wow, great post, thank you for this. Might you recommend a great book I can read on this? All I remember from my history classes are "many clashes between reds and nazis" and that is all.

[GatesofLenin]

So no ideas on what shape Communism might have taken in Germany?

Something like the DDR perhaps?

[thefinalmarch]

Something like the DDR perhaps?
lol no

That was "Stalinism", plain and simple. How 1918 Germany could become "Stalinist" is beyond me.

[promethean]

Wow, great post, thank you for this. Might you recommend a great book I can read on this? All I remember from my history classes are "many clashes between reds and nazis" and that is all.There are two good books on this:
The Communist Left in Germany 1918-1921 (http://www.marxists.org/subject/germany-1918-23/dauve-authier/index.htm)
and
The Dutch-German Communist Left (http://libcom.org/files/dutchleft.pdf)

[u.s.red]

wouldn't Hitler have killed off the communists?

[Rafiq]

^ He did?

[Ocean Seal]

wouldn't Hitler have killed off the communists?
Hitler wasn't in power in 1918.

[Искра]

i
Which one?
Lika's uprising.

Croatian fascists Ustashe tried to carry out a nationalist revolution and they started armed uprising. Communist party supported them, but without anyother actions. Police and army of First Yugoslavia killed all Ustasha's and that was end of it.

[Jose Gracchus]

Tongue-in-cheek: http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=123777

[tir1944]

Croatian fascists Ustashe tried to carry out a nationalist revolution and they started armed uprising. Communist party supported them, but without anyother actions. Police and army of First Yugoslavia killed all Ustasha's and that was end of it.
Thing is,Ustashe weren't really fascist back then,IMO.They weren't even antisemitic at that point.
Also no,the Gendarmes didn't kill all of them.

[Искра]

Thing is,Ustashe weren't really fascist back then,IMO.They weren't even antisemitic at that point.
Also no,the Gendarmes didn't kill all of them.
What kind of historical revisionism is this? Ustashe were formed in fascist Italy and they were fascists right from the start. Their program was fascist and they relied on Italy's help.


The Ustaše was heavily influenced by Italian Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism) and Nazism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#cite_note-Fischerpg207-15) Ante Pavelić's position of Poglavnik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poglavnik) was based on the similar positions of Duce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duce) held by Benito Mussolini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini) and Führer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer) by Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#cite_note-Fischerpg210-21) The Ustaše, like fascists, promoted a corporatist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism) economy.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#cite_note-Djilas.2C_p._114-22) Pavelić and the Ustaše were allowed sanctuary in Italy by Mussolini after being exiled from Yugoslavia.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e#cite_note-Fischerpg210-21)

They were anti-semites because of their Alliance with Germany. It's funny that Eugen Dido Kvaternik, who was in charge of final solution in fascist Croatia was a Jew and his mother Olga Frank commited suicide because of his actions.

Wikipedia article is quite good: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše

[tir1944]

What kind of historical revisionism is this? Ustashe were formed in fascist Italy and they were fascists right from the start.
Hmm,yeah,after re-checking some facts i stand corrected.Yeah,they were fascists right from the start.I thought that they "tied themselves" up with Mussolini only after '32,but that's not correct.
However they weren't antisemitic until '37-'38,at least that's what the well known historian S.Goldstein wrote abotu the issue.