We were right again

[RGacky3]

leftists have been saying, 1. We are not comming out of this recession and 2. Class conflict is simmering right under the surface.

1. Its getting worse, you can't seriously say that its gotten better or that we are even in the right direction.

2. Occupy all over, and in the first month of the movement, it has a 59% approval rating, which is unprecedented, (it took forever for the anti-war movement, civil rights movement, labor movement, feminist movement and so on to gain any public traction, the Occupy movement has it from the get go). You cannot deny now, that class conflict is'nt a major part of the American picture right now.

[tir1944]

1. We are not comming out of this recession
USA maybe isn't,but it would be reasonable to assume that most of the world will indeed come out of the recession in a few years' time.


Class conflict is simmering right under the surface.
Yes,it's been like this for hundreds of years.

Also the OWS is not a movement of the working class.The demands it set forth are also not proletarian,revolutionary demands but (barely) reformist,confused and petty-bourgeois ones.
There's little to no class consciousness among the participans.
I don't see how class conflict is a major part of the American picture right now.
That'd be true if the OWS,i don't know,turns into a worker's movement.

[RGacky3]

USA maybe isn't,but it would be reasonable to assume that most of the world will indeed come out of the recession in a few years' time.


It depends on what they do.


Also the OWS is not a movement of the working class.The demands it set forth are also not proletarian,revolutionary demands but (barely) reformist,confused and petty-bourgeois ones.
There's little to no class consciousness among the participans.
I don't see how class conflict is a major part of the American picture right now.
That'd be true if the OWS,i don't know,turns into a worker's movement.

We don't live in 1944 anymore, the world has changed and the left has changed with it, the OWS is niether revolutionary or reformist, some are revolutionary, some are not, and their class consiousness is pretty advanced, especially in their understanding in the power of finance capital.

Some Leftists need to move beyond freaking 1917, the power brokers in the world right now are not the factory owners, the class structure of the world has changed.

[tir1944]

We don't live in 1944 anymore, the world has changed and the left has changed with it
Obviously.I don't see why you had to say this.


the OWS is niether revolutionary or reformist
And that's the tragedy! It's barely reformist!


some are revolutionary, some are not, and their class consiousness is pretty advance
Oh OK.Then why aren't they putting forth the demands for socialism,for the dict. of the prol. etc?



Some Leftists need to move beyond freaking 1917, the power brokers in the world right now are not the factory owners, the class structure of the world has changed.
Lenin talked about finance capital etc. already in 1910s...
But it's your turn to explain how and what way has the "class structure of the world" changed?
Are there still capitalists? And is there still proletariat?
Thank you.

[RGacky3]

Oh OK.Then why aren't they putting forth the demands for socialism,for the dict. of the prol. etc?


A. Because people there don't use the terms "dictatorship of the proletariate" and they don't use those terms because we don't live in 1917 anymore and no one talks like that.

B. Because they arn't a unified force under a single party, nor should they be. They've only been around for a month now.


Lenin talked about finance capital etc. already in 1910s...


So did Marx, but so what ...


But it's your turn to explain how and what way has the "class structure of the world" changed?
Are there still capitalists? And is there still proletariat?


Yes, there are still capitalists, and yes there are still proletariat, but what has changed is that finance capital has overtaken industrial capital in power, capitalists have changed the structure of capitalism through the institution of corporations and multinationals and conglomorates, creating all new problems for capitalism. The class structure of the working class has'nt changed much really, other than shifting industries, but the ruling class has changed significantly.

[tir1944]

Because people there don't use the terms "dictatorship of the proletariate" and they don't use those terms because we don't live in 1917 anymore and no one talks like that.
No,it's because these people are not revolutionary.DOTP is still very much used by many communist parties of today.However the real issue is not the form,but revolutionary content (and there ain't much of it).



Because they arn't a unified force under a single party, nor should they be. They've only been around for a month now.
So it's a mass movement which includes liberals,petty-bourgeois people,socdems,some communists and even some nazis.


So did Marx, but so what ...
So your "analysis" obviously doesn't hold water.


Yes, there are still capitalists, and yes there are still proletariat, but what has changed is that finance capital has overtaken industrial capital in power, capitalists have changed the structure of capitalism through the institution of corporations and multinationals and conglomorates, creating all new problems for capitalism. The class structure of the working class has'nt changed much really, other than shifting industries, but the ruling class has changed significantly.
Good,that's what capitalism does,it constantly "reinvents" itself.
However what are the implications of all this in regards to the proletariat and its revolutionary theory and praxis?

[RGacky3]

However what are the implications of all this in regards to the proletariat and its revolutionary theory and praxis?

You go after the banks first ...


So your "analysis" obviously doesn't hold water.


Yes it does. I'm talking about revolutoinary movements, they adjust as time adjusts, remember Marx supported the bougious revolutions, he supported revolutionary things in his time.


So it's a mass movement which includes liberals,petty-bourgeois people,socdems,some communists and even some nazis.


Where are the Nazis? Petty-bourgeois' interests are more and more alligned with the working class now, most socialists are also liberals (it depends on how you use the word, as long as your not using it as just a leninist dirty word).


No,it's because these people are not revolutionary.DOTP is still very much used by many communist parties of today.However the real issue is not the form,but revolutionary content (and there ain't much of it).


And those communist parties are less and less important, unless they adjust to the times.

Revolutoinary content? Anyway, its easy for armchair revolutionaries to criticize REAL class movements for not being class conscious enough or whatever, but why not get out there and do something instead, this movement is the most significant in US history for a long time, and one of hte most class conscious, and it can turn into many different things.

[tir1944]

You go after the banks first ...
"Go after the banks"? That's a working strategy now?


I'm talking about revolutoinary movements, they adjust as time adjusts, remember Marx supported the bougious revolutions, he supported revolutionary things in his time.
OK.How exactly is OWS a revolutionary movement?
Also yeah,de facto the whole world is capitalist now,unlike in the 19th century...


Where are the Nazis?
There's a thread here on this,look for it.


Petty-bourgeois' interests are more and more alligned with the working class now, most socialists are also liberals
So who's "leading the dance" here? The Pet.-bourg. or the working class?


And those communist parties are less and less important, unless they adjust to the times.
Has the CPUSA "adjusted to times"?:laugh:

Anyway, its easy for armchair revolutionaries to criticize REAL class movements for not being class conscious enough or whatever, but why not get out there and do something instead, this movement is the most significant in US history for a long time, and one of hte most class conscious, and it can turn into many different things.
I'm not an American etc etc.
I'd like to see this becoming a revolutionary movement of the proletariat however that's unlikely.
Communists were booed off the stage in several OWS events...

[RGacky3]

So who's "leading the dance" here? The Pet.-bourg. or the working class?


A: There is no leaders, and B: Most of them there are probably working class.


Has the CPUSA "adjusted to times"?http://www.revleft.com/vb/we-were-right-t163354/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

no ...


I'm not an American etc etc.
I'd like to see this becoming a revolutionary movement of the proletariat however that's unlikely.
Communists were booed off the stage in several OWS events...

Richard Wolff gave a speach, as did Chomsky, if they were leninists wearing Che T-shirts and wearing army caps, they probably deserved to get bood off.


"Go after the banks"? That's a working strategy now?

I really have nothing to add, other than you are more than welcome to wait for 1917 to come again, but its not, I'll be with the real anti-capitalist left now, actually doing something.

[Rafiq]

What is important to understand is that this "Post-Modern" understanding of the world, this "Fukuyama" age that we have all been so naive to think was real, is now officially gone and crushed.

We were told that now that the Communist countries are gone, capitalism will be the most efficient and last system humans will ever live in. The labor movement was completely crushed and class struggle with it. Capitalism was developing - and quite rather well at that- in countries like China and India.

But little did we know that, that was just a temporary "Growth" period, like the 50's and the 20's.

I am seeing a rise in Class struggle and a rise of new Ideas, and most especially, people actually talking about capitalism, (as if it's not something "natural" anymore!).

So, to sum it up:

This is the same shit we saw in the 20th century. Post Modernism was a short lasted illusion but is now gone forever.

Except this time I don't see recovery. I don't think Capitalism is going to survive this, we've been living off of the fruits of the Last world war and I think at least a couple people knew that it wasn't going to last that long. We are back where we started from - the great depression.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I don't think the world will come out of the Great Recession in a few years. Economists, from Marxists to left Keynsians are saying this recession resembles the 20 year lomg "Long Depression" of 1873-1893 or thereabouts.

Of course the Occupy movement is reformist. It will radicalize. This is happening all ready. It is deeply embarrassing to the two corporate parties. The ruling class cannot rule in the same way. Whatever happens in the Oakland general strike, the struggle can only escalate. People have nowhere else to go.

[trivas7]

Also the OWS is not a movement of the working class.The demands it set forth are also not proletarian,revolutionary demands but (barely) reformist,confused and petty-bourgeois ones.
There's little to no class consciousness among the participans.
I don't see how class conflict is a major part of the American picture right now.
That'd be true if the OWS,i don't know,turns into a worker's movement.
Nonsense. OWS is a protest and also an example of a new kind of society: no monetary exchange, no government and direct democracy. The process itself is revolutionary. Last century was socialism's run at communism; perhaps this century, with our implicit understanding of vertical relationships, will be anarchism's turn.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Nonsense. OWS is a protest and also an example of a new kind of society: no monetary exchange, no government and direct democracy.

What bullshit. Protests aren't models for any kind of society. A society consisting of tent cities, occupations of public space and marches isn't a society anyone would survive in.

There is no monetary exchange because there is no production or distribution in your "example of a new kind of society". There is no government because a protest doesn't need "government", and what exactly does the 'direct democracy' of the OWS protests acheive? Which way will we march today? What quasi-reformist demands should we put forward?



The process itself is revolutionary.A movement that is revolutionary is a movement that is abolishing the old type of society and building a new one. The OWS movement hasn't done anything to be considered potentially revolutionary yet. They are just protests, with very little to no revolutionary political content.


Last century was socialism's run at communism; perhaps this century, with our implicit understanding of vertical relationships, will be anarchism's turn.Yeah right.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Except this time I don't see recovery. I don't think Capitalism is going to survive this, we've been living off of the fruits of the Last world war and I think at least a couple people knew that it wasn't going to last that long. We are back where we started from - the great depression.

Maybe. i think that the situation resembles the early 20th century to a degree. However there are no more wars for conquest of new markets and territories that can stave off crisis with much success. Neither are there any more "Chinas" so to speak. You may be right but the capitalist world economy has a knack for relocating economic crises geographically. We will have to work, wait, and see.

[trivas7]

A society consisting of tent cities, occupations of public space and marches isn't a society anyone would survive in.

Except that over 1,000 OWS camps worldwide are surviving. Why can't the production and distribution of resources be administered in the same anarchistic way on a global scale? You have little imagination if you can't see the possibilities.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Except that over 1,000 OWS camps worldwide are surviving.

Surviving how? Do they produce everything they need in their camps? Or do they buy their articles of consumption?


Why can't the production and distribution of resources be administered in the same anarchistic way on a global scale? i'm not sure what "anarchistic" means and how this applies to the occupy movments but i don't have any argument against free, associated production and distribution. All im saying is OWS and it's spinoffs aren't examples for any kind of society.


You have little imagination if you can't see the possibilities.i'd like to stick to reality in this discussion rather than whatever imagination you have in mind. The reality is Occupy wherever isn't a model for a new society--especially if the majority of them are not revolutionary in content.

[trivas7]

The reality is Occupy wherever isn't a model for a new society--especially if the majority of them are not revolutionary in content.
OTC, this kind of anarchism is communism in practice. Have you been to a General Assembly or participated in a OWS working group? You need to revise what "revolutionary" means, "working class movement" doesn't begin to address the 21st century social context OWS represents.

[mykittyhasaboner]

OTC, this kind of anarchism is communism in practice.

It is funny that you say this because practically none of the people at these protests are anarchists. So how could it possibly by "anarchism" in practice.

That notion that "communism" is in practice *anywhere* is laughable and i'll just ignore that.



Have you been to a General Assembly or participated in a OWS working group?No. Have you? Does it matter?

You wanna see what my local occupy protest has to offer?

CvdYrmv0DA0

(As an aside, why do people hold talks like this? Just speak. People don't have to mindlessly repeat your speech to understand it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JfLT1sIGVQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0XR85BHAm8

So much for anarchism or communism in practice.

But i digress. The real value in these protests is that it presents a brilliant opportunity to talk to people in an appropriate setting, about how capitalism as a whole is not functionable in any democratic, prosperous, peaceful, collective, or sane method. It is a chance for the actual working class left to organize folks who are pissed and dissolusioned but do not have any concrete political alternatives to make as their goals. The problem with these protests, is that we are entering a period of serious crisis, both political-economic and ideological, and there is no real alternative ready to challenge capitalism. What you get is a bunch of diverese and unorganized protests of everyone from workers to students to small business owners all chanting for their narrow interests.


You need to revise what "revolutionary" means, "working class movement" doesn't begin to address the 21st century social context OWS represents.What exactly is this 21st centruy context that the OWS supposedly represents?

The context of the 99%? Whatever that percentage means? The context of the corporations controllin' OUR government and the people WE elected? (sarcasm)

What has changed so signifigantly in your view from the previous century?



Are there still capitalists? And is there still proletariat?

[RED DAVE]

Also the OWS is not a movement of the working class.The demands it set forth are also not proletarian,revolutionary demands but (barely) reformist,confused and petty-bourgeois ones.
There's little to no class consciousness among the participans.
I don't see how class conflict is a major part of the American picture right now.
That'd be true if the OWS,i don't know,turns into a worker's movement.You are truly an asshole.

RED DAVE

[Bud Struggle]

But i digress. The real value in these protests is that it presents a brilliant opportunity to talk to people in an appropriate setting, about how capitalism as a whole is not functionable in any democratic, prosperous, peaceful, collective, or sane method. It is a chance for the actual working class left to organize folks who are pissed and dissolusioned but do not have any concrete political alternatives to make as their goals. The problem with these protests, is that we are entering a period of serious crisis, both political-economic and ideological, and there is no real alternative ready to challenge capitalism. What you get is a bunch of diverese and unorganized protests of everyone from workers to students to small business owners all chanting for their narrow interests.



Wise words. I've seen the protests in NYC, Miami and Orlando. Cutsie at best. (Except maybe for NYC) From what I could see it's a bunch of people hanging out. Partying to the max and living an "alternative" lifestyle in front of the national media.

As a RevLefter, I kind of know what you all would wish they would say. As a bstander I haven't a clue what thay are acually saying.

Good for them, but what is the point?

[Drosophila]

You are truly an asshole.

RED DAVE

What thoughtful feedback.

[trivas7]

The problem with these protests, is that we are entering a period of serious crisis, both political-economic and ideological, and there is no real alternative ready to challenge capitalism.
Sorry to break it to you but this is a diverse county and world; OWS is as organized an opposition to capitalism as it's going to get -- but also as organized as need be to accomplish the job of getting to communism. If we have learned anything in seventy years of socialist politics is that communist ideals encompass much more than politics. You just can't think outside your old boxes.



As a RevLefter, I kind of know what you all would wish they would say. As a bstander I haven't a clue what thay are acually saying.

Then you haven't been listening. Go up to an occupier and start talking.

[Skooma Addict]

Sorry to break it to you but this is a diverse county and world; OWS is as organized an opposition to capitalism as it's going to get -- but also as organized as need be to accomplish the job of getting to communism. If we have learned anything in seventy years of socialist politics is that communist ideals encompass much more than politics. You just can't think outside your old boxes.

how

[Commissar Rykov]

how
Through magic and metal boxes.

[trivas7]

how
How what? Get to communism? Direct democracy, non-hierarchical networking, nurturing communities, functioning on a global scale gets us there.

[Thirsty Crow]

How what? Get to communism? Direct democracy, non-hierarchical networking, nurturing communities, functioning on a global scale gets us there.
And how exactly would those processes and phenomena (nurturing communities? you mean - community work?) break the power of the class of the owners of capital, who as it happens to be have entire apparatuses of repression at their disposal?

[mykittyhasaboner]

Good for them, but what is the point?

The point is merely to protest and occupy public space. Not much can be accomplished from this. Other than grouping people together. This isn't inherently a bad thing, its a protest. A protest against very real class warfare where the capitalist class is winning.

Other forms of action can develop from such a thing. For example, the Occupy Oakland General Assembly ratified a general strike.


Below is the proposal passed by the Occupy Oakland General Assembly on Wednesday October 26, 2011 in reclaimed Oscar Grant Plaza. 1607 people voted. 1484 voted in favor of the resolution, 77 abstained and 46 voted against it, passing the proposal at 96.9%. The General Assembly operates on a modified consensus process that passes proposals with 90% in favor and with abstaining votes removed from the final count. PROPOSAL:


We as fellow occupiers of Oscar Grant Plaza propose that on Wednesday November 2, 2011, we liberate Oakland and shut down the 1%.


We propose a city wide general strike and we propose we invite all students to walk out of school. Instead of workers going to work and students going to school, the people will converge on downtown Oakland to shut down the city.


All banks and corporations should close down for the day or we will march on them.


While we are calling for a general strike, we are also calling for much more. People who organize out of their neighborhoods, schools, community organizations, affinity groups, workplaces and families are encouraged to self organize in a way that allows them to participate in shutting down the city in whatever manner they are comfortable with and capable of.


The whole world is watching Oakland. Let’s show them what is possible.


The Strike Coordinating Council will begin meeting everyday at 5pm in Oscar Grant Plaza before the daily General Assembly at 7pm. All strike participants are invited. Stay tuned for much more information and see you next Wednesday.


http://www.occupyoakland.org/2011/10/general-strike-mass-day-of-action/


Sorry to break it to you but this is a diverse county and world; OWS is as organized an opposition to capitalism as it's going to get

i'm sorry you think that. Besides who are you to say that OWS is as organized as opposition to capitalism can get?

Clearly, the OWS movement is not led ideologically by anyone and varies from city to city. None of these protests have the ability nor the stated goal to really challenge capitalism.


-- but also as organized as need be to accomplish the job of getting to communism.

Right, so a bunch of protests + no hierarchy = communism.


If we have learned anything in seventy years of socialist politics is that communist ideals encompass much more than politics. You just can't think outside your old boxes.

What are you talking about? Please enlighten us all.


Then you haven't been listening. Go up to an occupier and start talking.

Talking to people at protests is just going to get you their opinion.

[Искра]

I have only one thing to say regarding OWS not being enough 'revolutionary': The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it - Karl Marx

In other words, we can sit at our computers and type on revleft how OWS and similar struggles are not 'revolutionary', how they are reformist and how they are not as cool as Nepali Maoists and Naxalites with guns and c4, but at the end of a day we will never change a thing. Other opption is to go there and to agitate, and of course we will never be able to change these movements into revolutionary movements, but still that's not our job -jet. Our job is to change few people, step by step, one by one and to create revolutioanry organisations ;)

[RGacky3]

As a RevLefter, I kind of know what you all would wish they would say. As a bstander I haven't a clue what thay are acually saying.


LISTEN to what they are talking about, anti-corporate personhood, getting money out of politics, tax the rich, its not that hard to figure out, you just have to pay attention, and not just to fox news.


Wise words. I've seen the protests in NYC, Miami and Orlando. Cutsie at best. (Except maybe for NYC) From what I could see it's a bunch of people hanging out. Partying to the max and living an "alternative" lifestyle in front of the national media.


Same thing they said about the protests in the 60s, and look at the difference in AMerican from the 50s to the 70s.

[trivas7]

And how exactly would those processes and phenomena (nurturing communities? you mean - community work?) break the power of the class of the owners of capital, who as it happens to be have entire apparatuses of repression at their disposal?
I freely admit that I have no idea how this will happen; but if anyone thinks they know they are lying. I just don't discount out of hand the possibility; e.g., at some point there can come a tipping point where the majority becomes aware of the possibility of communism whether or not they call it that.

[Comrade Hill]

Me and my comrades in my college dorm plan on going to an OWS protest in New York.

My buddy will bring the Communist Manifesto while I bring my Malcolm X black liberation book. If we get booed we will not speak or move away, we will stand like the heros of the civil rights movement did against the state and institutions that oppressed minorities.

We will be surrounded by people chanting *make the secretary pay the same as the CEO.* But our job will be to bring different ideas to the plate. Paying the same tax that a secretary pays to the imperialist U.S. government is not going to make things more "fair."