Is "Jewish" a race or a religion?

[ВАЛТЕР]

I am confused because sometimes I here people refer to Jewish as a race, and sometimes I hear it refereed to as just a religion.

Is there only some Jews that are the Jewish race.

Or can anybody who converts to Judaism become a member of the Jewish race?

I have always wondered this, and I figured I may as well ask. Maybe one of our Jewish members can shed some light on the issue for me.

[Stork]

Most European Jews are descended from Asheknazi khazars that where a mix of East Asians, Europeans and North Africans. Obviously, race is a VERY ambiguous term and there doesn't seem to be an objective definition of what a "race" is, there's no line in the sand between what "White" is, or what "Black" is. Most of it comes down to how most people see you, Barrack Obama and Tiger Woods are both Mixed race, but they are seen a black, in Brazil and other South American countries what they may class as white, we in Europe would say is Mulatto, or Mestizo. Jews have very subtle, and inconsistent anthropological differences and have lives in Europe for Millions of years.
I'd say that they are more a religious group, but, because of how society has treated them, even those who don't share the religious views have a kinship with fellows of similar lineage, making it like a makeshift race. There's also ethnic hostility within Israel between Jews.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It's a religion and also an ethnic group or groups.

[Искра]

Only Nazi’s called Jews a “race”. Being a Jew was a racial question to them, based on their racist ideology where Jews were inferior race.


In present science it’s common to call Jews a nation whose religion is Judaism. Jewish national identity is related to their religious identity as religion was main source of what will later become their national myths. To see how close is religion related to nation you just have to see how Judaism preserved language and letter which is now used in Israel.

[Grenzer]

This is a confusing matter. I have heard Zionists refer to "Jews" as a nation, race, and religion. They typically claim whatever is most convenient at the time.

I would say strongly that they are NOT a race. The vast majority of Jews today are Ashkenazi. They are the descendants of an eastern european kingdom that converted to Judaism in the dark ages, and migrated west into areas like present day Germany. I believe the exact number is something like 80% of Jews being Ashkenazi. They have little to no relation to the ancient Hebrews.

Judaism is a religion, that's it. People that say otherwise are lying and attempting to bend things to their own nationalistic purposes, or they are simply confused/ignorant. It's a legitimate question to ask given how much many Zionists have been attempting to twist the meaning to their purposes. Perhaps one time the Jews could have also been said to be a race unto themselves, but that is clearly no longer the case.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Most European Jews are descended from Asheknazi khazars that where a mix of East Asians, Europeans and North Africans.
Genetic evidence suggests the majority of Ashkenazi Jews have Middle Eastern ancestry with some European admixture. Ashkenaz is a term which originally referred to the area along the Rhine and what became Germany. It has nothing to do with the Khazars.


Jews have very subtle, and inconsistent anthropological differences and have lives in Europe for Millions of years.
Millions? Homo sapiens as a species isn't even that old. More like less than 2000 years, with the earliest evidence for Jews in the German region dating back to the 4th century CE.

[Morgenstern]

As another poster stated it depends how you define race. But in American culture, there is a Jewish religion and race. Most Jews are racially Jewish, but in cases such as Reform Jews, there are non racial Jews being religiously Jewish. Examples of American Jews identifying with a race of Jews is commonly seen by comedians such as Sarah Silverman and Jon Stewart who uses their Jewish background as a joke.

Sorry for any mistakes I'm on my mobile.

[Искра]

Zionism is extreme Jewish nationalism and as every nationalism it will try to create myths of racial purity and superiority of Jewish nation above all others. But as this is just nationalistic mythology it’s important to denounce it as Jews are nation and religious group. It’s not ethnic group as they are Semites (therefore anti-semitism).

[Stork]

Genetic evidence suggests the majority of Ashkenazi Jews have Middle Eastern ancestry with some European admixture. Ashkenaz is a term which originally referred to the area along the Rhine and what became Germany. It has nothing to do with the Khazars.


Millions? Homo sapiens as a species isn't even that old. More like less than 2000 years, with the earliest evidence for Jews in the German region dating back to the 4th century CE.
I was under the impression that Ashkenazi Jews originated on Asia Minor (Khazaria) and then expanded into Europe and congregated in certain areas esp. the Rhineland, hence the name.

Also, that Millions thing was just an exaggeration, we all know the universe is just 6,000 years old.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The vast majority of Jews today are Ashkenazi. They are the descendants of an eastern european kingdom that converted to Judaism in the dark ages, and migrated west into areas like present day Germany.
Genetic studies show Middle Eastern ancestry with some European admixture. It was only a minority of Khazars which converted, and while it's certainly possible they contributed to the ancestry of the Ashkenazim, it's a false and scientifically disproven theory that Ashkenazim = Khazars.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I was under the impression that Ashkenazi Jews originated on Asia Minor (Khazaria) and then expanded into Europe and congregated in certain areas esp. the Rhineland, hence the name.
There were Jews in the Rhineland centuries before some Khazars converted to Judaism.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Zionism is extreme Jewish nationalism and as every nationalism it will try to create myths of racial purity and superiority of Jewish nation above all others. But as this is just nationalistic mythology it’s important to denounce it as Jews are nation and religious group. It’s not ethnic group as they are Semites (therefore anti-semitism).
Yes, the genetic and anthropological evidence for the origins of European Jewry must be kept separate from the political ideology of Zionism. Just because Jewish Zionists might be able to claim some ancestry from the Middle East more than a thousand years ago in no way gives them a claim to Palestine.

[hatzel]

The whole Khazars thing is very popular in antisemitic circles, or amongst anybody who feels like claiming that they want to 'usurp' the Jews from a religious perspective, through some kind of 'well yeeeeeah of course I believe every word of the Bible or the Qur'an or whatever, but all that stuff in there about the Jews isn't about those guys, because they're Turks...except for when the book says they did something bad, like kill Jesus, then they're not Turks anymore, oh no!' When it comes to the Khazars...it's still debated exactly how widespread Judaism even was there. Some have suggested it was effectively just the court religion, also followed by some members of the aristocracy, whilst others have suggested even the lowliest peasants had adopted Judaism. Either way, one wouldn't deny that there most likely are some Jews somewhere who are descendants of people who lived in Khazaria, yet even those could have just been the Jewish merchants and burghers who had established themselves there centuries earlier, if there wasn't widespread conversion. Still, considering the Ashkenazi tradition (remembering that Ashkenazi Jews are merely those who follow a certain set of customs established in Ashkenaz, which as has already been covered, was the Medieval Hebrew name for Germany, as opposed to other groups, such as the Sepharadim, who follow the Iberian rite) was, according to Rashi, effectively codified by Rabbeinu Gershom in Mainz (though he was actually born in Metz, and Rashi was from Troyes, both, as I'm sure you know, in France) around the time of the the conquest of Khazaria, the event which is supposed to have flooded Europe with fleeing Jews, I think it's foolish to claim that there is any legitimacy to the claim that Ashkenazi Jews and Khazar Jews are synonymous. Of course we know very little of the 'brand' of Judaism followed in Khazaria, but perhaps it would have been similar to that of the Gruzinim in Georgia. It wouldn't have been Ashkenazi, though.

Anyway, this is all totally irrelevant. Race hardly even existed as a concept back in the day, and your nation (we may call the Jews a nation) was determined by which language you spoke, which deity/-ies you chose to worship, your culture. Stuff like that. There are countless stories in the Bible of people becoming Jews upon adopting Jewish practices (that is to say conversion), which seems to suggest that there is no racial element, nothing to do with ethnicity, though it is true that, due to limited admixture with surrounding populations, some Jews (particularly the kohanim) exhibit 'foreign' genetic markers. But this isn't held up as some defining characteristic by anybody of sound mind.

In fact, it is taught that the Jewish nation was originally defined on entirely spiritual terms; the Jews (or we should say proto-Jews) were merely the followers of Abraham's teachings on spirituality and the nature of reality, and it was this which distinguished them from Babylonians, Canaanites etc. Anybody who converts to Judaism (by adopting Jewish cultural practices) then becomes a member of the Jewish nation/people/whatever you want to call it. Without having to undergo any kind of experimental ethnic transformation.

On that note, I should point out that it is taught that Hashem offered the Torah to all the nations of the Earth, and that it was only the Jews who decided it would be a good idea to make the whole sacrifice thing (*actual conversation between Hashem and the nations* "if you follow all these crazy law things here and accept the fact that absolutely everybody is going to hate you for the next few thousand years, eventually I'll make it so that you maybe don't have to follow all these crazy law things here and everybody will stop hating people. You included." "...this is literally the worst deal anybody has ever offered anybody!"), however (for some strange reason :laugh:) there were individuals amongst the nations who accepted the offer of the Torah, even if the opinion of the nation as a whole was to reject it. Those who convert are considered to be these people, 'Jews amongst the nations' or whatever you want to call it. That is to say, those who are spiritually 'Jewish,' accepting the faith and the teachings and all that, and maintaining a relationship with Hashem, even unwittingly and amongst non-Jewish nations. Conversion then is less of a transformation, and more of a return.

I...think/hope I've answered all your questions :)

[Nox]

'Jews' as a whole are made up of three ethnicities: Ashkenazi (German/European), Sephardi (Iberian) and Mizrati (Eastern).

Not all people who follow the Jewish religion have one of those ethnicities, and not all people of those ethnicities follow the Jewish religion.

And for fuck's sake, the Jews DID NOT originate in Khazaria... That's just anti-semitic propaganda/conspiracy theory.

[tir1944]

And for fuck's sake, the Jews DID NOT originate in Khazaria...
Who claimed this anyway?

[Nox]

Who claimed this anyway?

2 or 3 people on this thread.

I'm shocked that people would be spewing out such anti-scientific, anti-semitic crap on Revleft

[Sasha]

Race? No
Religion? For some but absolutely not everybody
For me its a culture (as in distinct customs, food, humour, humanist worldvieuw etc etc) but I might be more yiddish than jewish

[Искра]

Is yiddish term for German Jew?

[Tim Cornelis]

Judaism = religion
Jewry = ethnic group

Jew = member of ethnic group and/or religion


Is yiddish term for German Jew?

No, Yiddish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language) is a Germanic language spoken mostly by Jews from European countries.

[hatzel]

'Jews' as a whole are made up of three ethnicities: Ashkenazi (German/European), Sephardi (Iberian) and Mizrati (Eastern).

This strikes me as a gross oversimplification. Not least because it seems to exclude groups like the Ethiopian Beta Israel, as well as the Indian Cochin Jews and Bene Israel. I also feel that the Yehudim Gruzinim of Georgia would not consider themselves to belong to any of the above categories, nor would the Greek Romaniotes, and the Yemeni Jews, though often 'lumped in' with the Mizrahim, constitute a remarkably distinct group within world Jewry. In both heritage and tradition. Their similarities with the Mizrahim extend only as far as being from east of the Mediterranean, which isn't really a solid basis for the construction of ethnic groups.

There's also an issue concerning whether we are going to call these distinct ethnic groups, when they are largely determined by their rite; of course there is a certain amount of overlap, but there isn't a hard-and-fast correlation between the two. There were, for example, many Jews already living east of Germany (the speakers of Knaanic) who were 'absorbed' into the Ashkenazim by adopting Nusach Ashkenaz in the 12th-13th centuries, though they clearly had very different origins. (Incidentally, many of these people would later come to call themselves Sepharadim, after the adoption of the Nusach Sepharad in the 16th and 17th centuries, in the tradition of the Arizal). The same can be said of non-Sepharadim around the Mediterranean who become Sepharadim after 1492, thanks to the movement of 'genuine' Sepharadim into new territory. The descendants of many of these incoming Sepharadim, who found themselves in Lebanon and Syria, may now actually be called Mizrahim, whilst those who went to such disparate places as Morocco, Greece or Mexico remained Sepharadim.

This then calls the distinction between Sepharadim and Mizrahim into question, considering both follow the Sephardic rite, or, as it is sometimes called, Nusach Edot haMizrahi, though this is often considered pejorative. In Israel, many Sephardi Chief Rabbis have been 'Mizrahim'; Mordechai Eliyahu was from an Iraqi family, Ovadia Yosef and Yitzhak Nissim were both born in Iraq, whilst others, such as Shlomo Adar (born in Morocco), are 'typical' Sepharadim.

I'm not entirely convinced there's any real reason to talk about these groups as ethnic divisions, when they are based largely on what order they say the prayers in, whether or not they eat beans on Pesach and what they write on the back of the mezuzah. And distinguishing so arbitrarily between Sepharadim and Mizrahim has always seemed to me to be based more on how 'Oriental' one comes across as, particularly given the fact that nobody's saying that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim should be considered the same group, Edot haMa'aravi or something, when the differences between their rites and heritages are at least as distinct as the differences between the Yemeni and Iraqi Jews, who for some reason are considered one and the same 'Mizrahim.'

[Tim Cornelis]

This strikes me as a gross oversimplification. Not least because it seems to exclude groups like the Ethiopian Beta Israel, as well as the Indian Cochin Jews and Bene Israel. I also feel that the Yehudim Gruzinim of Georgia would not consider themselves to belong to any of the above categories, nor would the Greek Romaniotes, and the Yemeni Jews, though often 'lumped in' with the Mizrahim, constitute a remarkably distinct group within world Jewry. In both heritage and tradition. Their similarities with the Mizrahim extend only as far as being from east of the Mediterranean, which isn't really a solid basis for the construction of ethnic groups.

Don't forget about Bukharan Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukharan_Jews).

[Искра]

No, Yiddish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_language) is a Germanic language spoken mostly by Jews from European countries.
Yeah, I ment on that. I have CD with German Jewish partisan songs and one song is called "Yid, du partizaner"

JXqgw2U4yE4

[Nox]

This strikes me as a gross oversimplification. Not least because it seems to exclude groups like the Ethiopian Beta Israel, as well as the Indian Cochin Jews and Bene Israel. I also feel that the Yehudim Gruzinim of Georgia would not consider themselves to belong to any of the above categories, nor would the Greek Romaniotes, and the Yemeni Jews, though often 'lumped in' with the Mizrahim, constitute a remarkably distinct group within world Jewry. In both heritage and tradition. Their similarities with the Mizrahim extend only as far as being from east of the Mediterranean, which isn't really a solid basis for the construction of ethnic groups.

There's also an issue concerning whether we are going to call these distinct ethnic groups, when they are largely determined by their rite; of course there is a certain amount of overlap, but there isn't a hard-and-fast correlation between the two. There were, for example, many Jews already living east of Germany (the speakers of Knaanic) who were 'absorbed' into the Ashkenazim by adopting Nusach Ashkenaz in the 12th-13th centuries, though they clearly had very different origins. (Incidentally, many of these people would later come to call themselves Sepharadim, after the adoption of the Nusach Sepharad in the 16th and 17th centuries, in the tradition of the Arizal). The same can be said of non-Sepharadim around the Mediterranean who become Sepharadim after 1492, thanks to the movement of 'genuine' Sepharadim into new territory. The descendants of many of these incoming Sepharadim, who found themselves in Lebanon and Syria, may now actually be called Mizrahim, whilst those who went to such disparate places as Morocco, Greece or Mexico remained Sepharadim.

This then calls the distinction between Sepharadim and Mizrahim into question, considering both follow the Sephardic rite, or, as it is sometimes called, Nusach Edot haMizrahi, though this is often considered pejorative. In Israel, many Sephardi Chief Rabbis have been 'Mizrahim'; Mordechai Eliyahu was from an Iraqi family, Ovadia Yosef and Yitzhak Nissim were both born in Iraq, whilst others, such as Shlomo Adar (born in Morocco), are 'typical' Sepharadim.

I'm not entirely convinced there's any real reason to talk about these groups as ethnic divisions, when they are based largely on what order they say the prayers in, whether or not they eat beans on Pesach and what they write on the back of the mezuzah. And distinguishing so arbitrarily between Sepharadim and Mizrahim has always seemed to me to be based more on how 'Oriental' one comes across as, particularly given the fact that nobody's saying that Ashkenazim and Sepharadim should be considered the same group, Edot haMa'aravi or something, when the differences between their rites and heritages are at least as distinct as the differences between the Yemeni and Iraqi Jews, who for some reason are considered one and the same 'Mizrahim.'


Don't forget about Bukharan Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukharan_Jews).


I'm talking about the Ethnic Jews, not the converts. There may be a few smaller groups, but the main three are Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi

[Stork]

Damn, I didn't realise this stuff about the Khazars was wrong/anti-semitic rhetoric , but surely they must have come to Europe through Asia minor, no?

[pastradamus]

Damn, I didn't realise this stuff about the Khazars was wrong/anti-semitic rhetoric , but surely they must have come to Europe through Asia minor, no?

I know that many Jews arrived into Europe through Asia minor but also through states like Cyprus, Malta etc...back then travel by ship was much much faster than by land. Thats why in the middle ages you have a large population of Jews in Spain and other far reaching places. But then its also interesting that the one's we have here in Ireland came from Lithuania by way of ships (they were fooled by the ships captain who told them that Limerick city was America). But I dont really know too much about the issues.

[hatzel]

Don't forget about Bukharan Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukharan_Jews).

For their kippot alone they ought never be forgotten :thumbup1:

(Apologies to all other groups of Jews - past or present - from Nigeria to China or still further afield I neglected to mention)

[Iron Felix]

If "Jew" was simply a religious term, then would not Christians be Jews as well since they used to be a sect of the Jews? Over the centuries their ethnic ties have widened and most of today's Jews haven't much blood of Abraham in their veins, but would it not be fair to say that Jews have certain physical characteristics that distinguish them from other ethnic groups? I can easily distinguish between a European and a European Jew. It's fair to say that the majority of today's Jews are an ethnic group.

[Scarlet Fever]

It can be a cultural identity, a religious identity, an ethnic identity, or some combination of these. For instance, one person might identify as Jewish culturally and/or ethnically and still be an atheist. Another person--say, someone who was adopted--might identify as ethnically Jewish but not culturally or religiously so. A Jew by choice (convert) might identify as culturally and/or religiously Jewish but not ethnically so.

[hatzel]

If "Jew" was simply a religious term, then would not Christians be Jews as well since they used to be a sect of the Jews? Over the centuries their ethnic ties have widened and most of today's Jews haven't much blood of Abraham in their veins, but would it not be fair to say that Jews have certain physical characteristics that distinguish them from other ethnic groups? I can easily distinguish between a European and a European Jew. It's fair to say that the majority of today's Jews are an ethnic group.

Orly? Would you like to teach us how to distinguish one from t'other?

[Thirsty Crow]

I think it would be more prudent to frame this issue differently and ask ourselves whether the term applies to nationality or ethnicity.
Anyway, I think it's perfectly clear that there are Jewish people who in no way adhere to the religious practices of Judaism, in any of its manifestations. So it would be absurd to claim that the term refers solely to religious practices and observation.

[ВАЛТЕР]

So, Jews are an ethnic group not a "race". Got it.

However, how can they be considered an ethnic group if the religion is open to all?

Does becoming Jewish immediately place you in a new ethnic group?

I can't become a Roma tomorrow, however I can become a Jew?

Am I understanding this right?

[Grenzer]

2 or 3 people on this thread.

I'm shocked that people would be spewing out such anti-scientific, anti-semitic crap on Revleft

Overreacting much?

How the hell is speculating on the area of their origin anti-semitic? It really is irrelevant where they came from. Race is an artificial construct, and I don't see ANYONE on here claiming that Jews are inferior or superior based on where their ancestors may or may not have come from. Chill out, it's a pretty common thing to see that claim regarding the origins of the Ashkenazi, and instead of attacking people for their mistaken conclusion, why not correct it and act maturely?

[Искра]

I think it would be more prudent to frame this issue differently and ask ourselves whether the term applies to nationality or ethnicity.
Anyway, I think it's perfectly clear that there are Jewish people who in no way adhere to the religious practices of Judaism, in any of its manifestations. So it would be absurd to claim that the term refers solely to religious practices and observation.
Also I think that is very important to stress lack of Jewish national state trough history delayed development of Jewish nationalism. That is a reason, along with material ones, why so many Jews were leftists. Most of nations were formed in 19th century and they developed certain anti-Semitism. Therefore some Jewish people accepted Marxism or anarchism as they tend to unite people on class basis and as they had internationalists, cosmopolitan character.

[hatzel]

So, Jews are an ethnic group not a "race". Got it.

However, how can they be considered an ethnic group if the religion is open to all?

Does becoming Jewish immediately place you in a new ethnic group?

This is why I maintain that it is not a question of ethnicity, but of culture, and a sense of association. It just happens to sometimes correspond with ethnic differences, due to the historical exclusivity of this foreign cultural group. Jews with a long history in the Levant are largely indistinguishable from surrounding populations, ethnically speaking, due to their not having any foreign genes to retain through their exclusivity. Here it is clearly cultural, though those in deep diaspora sometimes exhibit certain genetic markers.


I can't become a Roma tomorrow

Interestingly enough, the Roma also have a largely cultural identity, based on lifestyle rather than descent. It is usually a question of ritual (im)purity; although marrying into the community is very rare, intermarriages between different groups of Roma happens, and involves the newcomer being 'trained' in the ways of 'Roma amare,' 'our Roma,' upon which they enter the community. More common is people being excluded from the community for transcending the rules of the community. This is particularly pertinent in those countries (of which there are many) where Romane children have been taken by social services and fostered in 'native' families; the Roma do not consider these people Roma, for they were raised in a non-Romany culture, yet (in countries in which Roma are noticeably darker) the surrounding population generally considers them outsiders. These people 'in the middle' are often overrepresented in the crime statistics, tarring the Roma who do not even consider them 'one of them.'

...what I was trying to get across there was how fluid these identities are, often considered to be defined ethnically by those 'outside,' but culturally by those 'inside.'

[Stork]

So, Jews are an ethnic group not a "race". Got it.

However, how can they be considered an ethnic group if the religion is open to all?

Does becoming Jewish immediately place you in a new ethnic group?

I can't become a Roma tomorrow, however I can become a Jew?

Am I understanding this right?

Most Jews belong to the "ashkenazi" ethnic group so this group are associated with Judaism.
Even some of those whom belong to this ethnic group yet not the religious belief identify as Jews ("atheist jew" or "racial Jew") because of this association and culture. Hell, even the wikipedia page for "Jews" lists Einstein as an Ashkenazi Jew despite the fact he's an Atheist/Pantheist.

I remember a debate I had in with a friend over whether Jesus Christ was a Jew or not, I argued he wasn't because he proclaimed himself the Messiah and criticised old testament tradition in the Sermon on the Mount. My friend said he was a descendant of David, was circumcised and lived around Jews so he was "as Jewish as Carl Sagan". I think it's best to keep it as a religious term, you wouldn't call Yusuf Islam (Cat Stephens) or Richard Dawkins Christians despite growing up in Christian homes, within Christian majority nations.

[Scarlet Fever]

So, Jews are an ethnic group not a "race". Got it.
However, how can they be considered an ethnic group if the religion is open to all?
Does becoming Jewish immediately place you in a new ethnic group?
I can't become a Roma tomorrow, however I can become a Jew?
Am I understanding this right?


This is why I maintain that it is not a question of ethnicity, but of culture, and a sense of association. It just happens to sometimes correspond with ethnic differences, due to the historical exclusivity of this foreign cultural group. Jews with a long history in the Levant are largely indistinguishable from surrounding populations, ethnically speaking, due to their not having any foreign genes to retain through their exclusivity. Here it is clearly cultural, though those in deep diaspora sometimes exhibit certain genetic markers.'

'Jewishness' can't be strictly classified as an ethnicity, a religion, or a culture, but it has characteristics of all three of these. As I pointed out earlier, a Jewish-born person adopted by a non-Jewish family can claim to be Jewish strictly on the basis of ethnicity, whether or not (s)he has had any cultural/religious experience with Judaism (indeed, the traditional definition is matrilineality (or conversion)).

It's a complicated concept. By converting to Judaism, you obviously aren't changing your actual heritage, but you are creating a(n ethnic) heritage for your children. To whit, many Jewish people have ancestors who converted centuries ago; they can identify as ethnically Jewish even though, if you go back far enough, their ancestors were not ethnically Jewish. So, the ethnic component of Jewish identity is as dynamic as the cultural and religious aspects.