How are women still oppressed? [Archive]

hurpderp

26th October 2011, 14:52

They basically aren't. Rallying around an "oppressed" minority is just another trick for politicians to gain support. They do this regardless of whether people are "equal."

CanisLupus - That domestic violence law has been reinstated. It was nothing more than the city and county government bickering over the budget. It's not uncommon for governments to try to shut down the most important services in an attempt to gain support from the public to increase the budget.

Women are given equal pay in all of America and all of Europe I assume. It is illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job. What they mean when they say that women are on average paid less than a man for the same job, is that if you gather the total salary from a women working x specified job and then gather it from men working the same x specified job,then the total pay to men would be greater. This is because, on average, men work more hours than women. Some of this comes from women taking maternity leave, but a most comes from women leaving early to pick up their kids from school, or do things like that. This is another lie feminists use to keep pushing their agenda.

Being treated like they're not capable of fending for themselves.

Is this because they are not? Women are physically weaker than men and usually the target of rape and muggings, so obviously men would treat them like this from time to time, not out of a superiority complex, but out of regard for them.

sexual double standards, objectification in the media, rape culture, sexual harassment etc.

Sorry, but that isn't "oppression."

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 15:06

They basically aren't.

Yes, they are. Just because women won some rights during the 19th and 20th centuries doesn't mean that women are no longer oppressed. Or do you assume that African-Americans are no longer oppressed because they won some civil rights? Do you assume that gay people in some countries are no longer oppressed simply because they can get married?

Rallying around an "oppressed" minority is just another trick for politicians to gain support. They do this regardless of whether people are "equal."

We know this already, and I don't know why you are using it as part of your argument.

CanisLupus - That domestic violence law has been reinstated. It was nothing more than the city and county government bickering over the budget. It's not uncommon for governments to try to shut down the most important services in an attempt to gain support from the public to increase the budget.

Can you show some examples of this?

Women are given equal pay in all of America and all of Europe I assume.

I can assume that the weather is sunny without looking out of a window, that doesn't make it true. Research this issue and you will find that women are not given equal pay in most of the West.

It is illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job.

You really think that stops employers from paying them less? If that law was fully abided by, why is there still a gender gap in wages?

What they mean when they say that women are on average paid less than a man for the same job, is that if you gather the total salary from a women working x specified job and then gather it from men working the same x specified job,then the total pay to men would be greater. This is because, on average, men work more hours than women. Some of this comes from women taking maternity leave, but a most comes from women leaving early to pick up their kids from school, or do things like that.

Men don't work anywhere near as many hours as women. When men do their fair share of the housework, or women get paid for doing the housework, that will mean something.

This is another lie feminists use to keep pushing their agenda.

I hope you're not one of those naive MRAs, are you?

Is this because they are not? Women are physically weaker than men

Generally, they are, but a woman can quite easily be stronger than a man.

and usually the target of rape and muggings, so obviously men would treat them like this from time to time, not out of a superiority complex, but out of regard for them.

You know, if men could stop raping and mugging women, that would really help as well.

Sorry, but that isn't "oppression."

Can you explain why you think this?

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 15:15

objectification, cultural use of the female body as a representational symbol, lower wages, institutionalized sexual violence, marginalization of women's expression

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 15:17

Women are given equal pay in all of America and all of Europe I assume

what the fuck is this?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 15:33

Many ways, including unequal pay, sexual double standards, objectification in the media, rape culture, sexual harassment etc.
Eh rape culture? Whats that?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 15:34

Being treated like they're not capable of fending for themselves.
Any examples of how women are treated like they're not capable of fending for themselves?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 15:37

objectification, cultural use of the female body as a representational symbol, lower wages, institutionalized sexual violence, marginalization of women's expression
Marginalization of women's expression?

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 15:39

Eh rape culture? Whats that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture. Also, we had a thread about it earlier this year - http://www.revleft.com/vb/rape-culture-t154124/index.html?t=154124.

hatzel

26th October 2011, 15:43

I would like to ask Einstein for his (I assume?) intentions with this thread. Is this supposed to be a way of airing a disbelief in the continued existence of sexism, a way of saying "as far as I'm concerned, women aren't oppressed anymore, but you guys seem to think they are, so prove it to me," or is it more "I consider women to be oppressed, even today, but would like more examples to help me when I debate this issue with people like herpderp, who doesn't believe it"?

hurpderp

26th October 2011, 15:55

Yes, they are. Just because women won some rights during the 19th and 20th centuries doesn't mean that women are no longer oppressed. Or do you assume that African-Americans are no longer oppressed because they won some civil rights? Do you assume that gay people in some countries are no longer oppressed simply because they can get married?

What more "rights" are left to give them? There are none because they are equal.

We know this already, and I don't know why you are using it as part of your argument.

Because this is what every one of these arguments boils down to.

Can you show some examples of this?

It's used in virtually every city, county, and state in America. Instead of cutting funding to or ending the less useful services (such as repaving roads that are in perfectly good condition, animal control services, etc.) local leaders will announce funding cuts to police and schools, to which there will be a huge uproar, after which the budget cuts are reduced, and at the end of the day the leaders still look accomplished for having cut spending by .3%

I can assume that the weather is sunny without looking out of a window, that doesn't make it true. Research this issue and you will find that women are not given equal pay in most of the West.

Except that they aren't, as I have already pointed out.

You really think that stops employers from paying them less? If that law was fully abided by, why is there still a gender gap in wages?

I told you why. There is no gap because women are paid the same per hour as men for the same job. I believe I made myself pretty clear on that.

Men don't work anywhere near as many hours as women. When men do their fair share of the housework, or women get paid for doing the housework, that will mean something.

Do you think the government should pay people for taking care of their kids? How about brushing their teeth and combing their hair? Or wiping their buttocks after using the lavatory?

I hope you're not one of those naive MRAs, are you?

Not sure what that is.

Generally, they are, but a woman can quite easily be stronger than a man.

That's not the point. 95% of women are weaker than the average man physically. I'm not going to assume that since there is x many number of women stronger than me that constitute 5% of the women I encounter, that the remaining 95% are not significantly weaker than me, and thus less capable when it comes to fighting or doing manual labor. As such I will kindly offer my assistance to a woman if I believe she may require it. If she declines, then that is perfectly alright. Like I said, this is done out of common courtesy, not as a way for men to feel like hot shit and boost their sense of worthiness.

This is like an elderly person claiming oppression because young people are trying to help them with things like crossing the street.

You know, if men could stop raping and mugging women, that would really help as well.

That is akin to me saying "You know, if African Americans could stop raping and mugging women, that would really help as well."

Are you trying to hold all members of a particular demographic accountable for actions of other members of that demographic?

Can you explain why you think this?

This comes from Meriam-Webster.

oppression

a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power

b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power

That is why these things don't qualify as oppression.

objectification, cultural use of the female body as a representational symbol,

Another great example of the word "oppression" being misused.

institutionalized sexual violence, marginalization of women's expression

Nope.

what the fuck is this?

Equality.

Kitty_Paine

26th October 2011, 16:03

Women are given equal pay in all of America and all of Europe I assume. It is illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job. What they mean when they say that women are on average paid less than a man for the same job, is that if you gather the total salary from a women working x specified job and then gather it from men working the same x specified job,then the total pay to men would be greater. This is because, on average, men work more hours than women. Some of this comes from women taking maternity leave, but a most comes from women leaving early to pick up their kids from school, or do things like that. This is another lie feminists use to keep pushing their agenda.

Okay, well going by that logic if a man and a woman are equally as educated, have the same time with a company, work the same hours (everything being the same, except their gender of course) then women should make the same as men... right?

By looking at a very specific and detailed sample of workers (graduates of the University of Michigan Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan_Law_School)) economists Robert Wood, Mary Corcoran and Paul Courant were able to examine the wage gap while matching men and women for many other possible explanatory factors - not only occupation, age, experience, education, and time in the workforce, but also childcare, average hours worked, grades while in college, and other factors. Even after accounting for all that, women still are paid only 81.5% of what men "with similar demographic characteristics, family situations, work hours, and work experience" are paid. - Wood, Robert G., Mary E. Corcoran, and Paul Courant. 1993. Pay Differences Among the Highly Paid: the Male-Female Earnings Gap in Lawyers’ Salaries. Journal of Labor Economics, Vol. 11, No. 3, pp. 417-441.

But I'm sure they were just lieing to push the "feminist agenda", right?

Any examples of how women are treated like they're not capable of fending for themselves?

When a cop won't let me leave until I have an escort not because of any law/rule but because, "It's dangerous for a young lady out there."

I appreciate the gesture but sometimes I'd like to be left to do what I'd like...

Not to mention Cops' view/behavior towards women/girls in general is very... over the top, you might say in terms of lending a helping hand... And I understand they're cops and all but it's still excessive in my eyes...

00000000000

26th October 2011, 16:11

hurpderp

26th October 2011, 16:20

Okay, well going by that logic if a man and a woman are equally as educated, have the same time with a company, work the same hours (everything being the same, except their gender of course) then women should make the same as men... right?

If all the factors are the same except gender, than pay should be, and IS, equal.

But I'm sure they were just lieing to push the "feminist agenda", right?

That study was not comparing employees of the same firm, but rather, employees of the same field. Different firms have different pay. Nothing surprising going on here.

When a cop won't let me leave until I have an escort not because of any law/rule but because, "It's dangerous for a young lady out there."

I appreciate the gesture but sometimes I'd like to be left to do what I'd like...

Not to mention Cops' view/behavior towards women/girls in general is very... over the top, you might say in terms of lending a helping hand... And I understand they're cops and all but it's still excessive in my eyes...

Well, I can understand your frustration with the police not allowing you to do as you please, which I admit is well within your rights, but what would you have them do? One moment, feminists are crying about rape being too high, and the next they are crying oppression when someone offers to lift a heavy object or the police try to protect them by having them escorted.

hurpderp

26th October 2011, 16:25

Also...this thread wouldn't even exist if there wasn't some truth or prescident (sp?) to women being more oppressed as a group than men today

By that logic you could infer that there must be some truth to the argument that non-white races are inferior, since there was an entire world war fought because of this issue. This is just a flat out logical fallacy. Just because someone argues something doesn't mean there is any credence to their argument or that they have any reason for arguing it that is based on facts.

Aliens must exist since there are so many UFO sighting, am I right?

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 16:30

Equality.

Liberal fucking scum.

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 16:31

What more "rights" are left to give them? There are none because they are equal.

So a woman can walk down a dark street at night without having to worry about being raped?
So a woman can be elected president/prime minister of any country (the number of countries where women have led that country is very small)?
So a woman isn't pressured by societal double standards, such as being called and seen as a "slut" whilst men can sleep with as many women as they please without being called "sluts"?
So a woman doesn't have to do all of the housework, because their male partner (in the case of male/female couples) does his fair share?
So a woman doesn't have to abandon her career to look after her family, whilst a man can put his career first (and if, as you claim, men and women are paid the same wage for the same job, there should be no reason why the woman has to be the one who sacrifices her career)?
So women in many societies worldwide aren't second class citizens?

Whilst the laws of most Western countries may appear to give women equal rights, the truth is that society and culture are often very discriminatory towards women.

Because this is what every one of these arguments boils down to.

What, that politicians are two-faced liars who exploit causes?

It's used in virtually every city, county, and state in America. Instead of cutting funding to or ending the less useful services (such as repaving roads that are in perfectly good condition, animal control services, etc.) local leaders will announce funding cuts to police and schools, to which there will be a huge uproar, after which the budget cuts are reduced, and at the end of the day the leaders still look accomplished for having cut spending by .3%

That's not really giving me an example, is it?

Except that they aren't, as I have already pointed out.

So, you're agreeing with me that women are not given equal wages for the same job?

I told you why. There is no gap because women are paid the same per hour as men for the same job. I believe I made myself pretty clear on that.

Actually, you're not making yourself clear at all. All you are doing is giving us your view without backing it up with evidence.

Do you think the government should pay people for taking care of their kids? How about brushing their teeth and combing their hair? Or wiping their buttocks after using the lavatory?

What I'm saying is, women do most of the housework and childcare. They are practically working 24 hours a day, whilst men usually work less than half of the day.

Not sure what that is.

Men's Rights Activists. Basically, they're a bunch of men who want society to return to the days of women being little more than the property of their husband. They hate the idea of losing their straight male privilege.

That's not the point. 95% of women are weaker than the average man physically.

Where did that statistic come from?

I'm not going to assume that since there is x many number of women stronger than me that constitute 5% of the women I encounter, that the remaining 95% are not significantly weaker than me, and thus less capable when it comes to fighting or doing manual labor. As such I will kindly offer my assistance to a woman if I believe she may require it. If she declines, then that is perfectly alright.

So, you would only offer your assistance because you believe she might be weak?

Like I said, this is done out of common courtesy, not as a way for men to feel like hot shit and boost their sense of worthiness.

I doubt that's the case all of the time.

This is like an elderly person claiming oppression because young people are trying to help them with things like crossing the street.

No, it's not. I can't speak for women, but I'm guessing that they generally don't want to be seen as the little lady who needs the help of a big, strong man all of the time.

That is akin to me saying "You know, if African Americans could stop raping and mugging women, that would really help as well."

No, it isn't. Most reported rapes are by men against women, and women usually have to worry about rapists or other perverts in places such as dark streets or public transportation.

Are you trying to hold all members of a particular demographic accountable for actions of other members of that demographic?

No, not at all, but men can help stop rape. Rapists tend to think that rape is something most men do. If men stopped laughing at rape jokes, or wearing t-shirts with similar stupid rape jokes on them, then that would have some effect. There's men who will see another man slip a pill into a woman's drink and won't say anything about it. There's men who will see a drunk woman being harassed by a man and won't do anything about it.

This comes from Meriam-Webster.

oppression

a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power

b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power

That is why these things don't qualify as oppression.

So white, straight males don't have authority and power in society just by being white, straight and male? Have you not noticed that a white male is often more respected than a black male, or that a straight male is more respected than a gay, bisexual, asexual or pansexual male?

Another great example of the word "oppression" being misused.

No, it is actually being used correctly, or do you think societal expectations and gender roles are not oppression?

Nope.

Nope, what?

Equality.

If women were paid the same wage for the same job, it would be equality, but that isn't happening in reality.

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 16:32

Marginalization of women's expression?

how many women can you name who are huge in public, artistic, or even academic discourse in the West?

now, do the same for men.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 16:34

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 16:38

. Also, we had a thread about it earlier this year - .
Violence against women is certaintly not tolerated in modern western society.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 16:46

When a cop won't let me leave until I have an escort not because of any law/rule but because, "It's dangerous for a young lady out there."

I appreciate the gesture but sometimes I'd like to be left to do what I'd like...

Not to mention Cops' view/behavior towards women/girls in general is very... over the top, you might say in terms of lending a helping hand... And I understand they're cops and all but it's still excessive in my eyes...
1. Let you leave from what?
2. I dont have much experience with policemen and i'm a male so i dont know anything about that

00000000000

26th October 2011, 16:47

By that logic you could infer that there must be some truth to the argument that non-white races are inferior, since there was an entire world war fought because of this issue. This is just a flat out logical fallacy. Just because someone argues something doesn't mean there is any credence to their argument or that they have any reason for arguing it that is based on facts.

Aliens must exist since there are so many UFO sighting, am I right?

...there is a difference between statements about the oppression of women and the bullshit theories of Nazis. There's a whole religion built around Hubbard's absurd theories..then there's a whole feminist movement built around the way women have actually been treated in society..
Context mate, context.

But I take your point, that particular comment of mine should have been better thought-out.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 16:48

There are many examples of how women are oppressed in overt and direct ways all over the world (from restrictions on access to education to honour killings). Another way in which they are oppressed in a way is through accepted levels of misogyny and sexism in every day life (you'll rarely hear men talking about a woman they don't like without hearing her described as a '*****').
Also...this thread wouldn't even exist if there wasn't some truth or prescident (sp?) to women being more oppressed as a group than men today
1. i'm talking about the first world here
2. and women dont talk badly about men they dont like?
3. yes it would exist if people talked about it even through it is't there (i dont if it is)

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 16:48

Violence against women is certaintly not tolerated in modern western society.

haha

it might be legislated against but that doesn't mean shit. that's like saying "the West is not a violent society, as murder is not tolerated!"

Kitty_Paine

26th October 2011, 16:49

If all the factors are the same except gender, than pay should be, and IS, equal.

Could we see some research, data on that...? Any facts at all would be awesome.

Remember everytime a "fact" is stated without being cited, an angel loses it's wings. And there are a shit load of angels falling out of the sky right now. I'm not saying you aren't possibly right... but your word of mouth means nothing. What you're doing is roughly equivalent to trolling.

That study was not comparing employees of the same firm, but rather, employees of the same field. Different firms have different pay. Nothing surprising going on here.

Okay, so you're saying it's simply a coincidence. It just so happens that in this study there was a greater population of women working at lower paying firms... fine, fair enough. But where's your proof to back your point up?

Where's your proof that across the board in the same firm, women and men make the same according to experience level etc.?

Well, I can understand your frustration with the police not allowing you to do as you please, which I admit is well within your rights, but what would you have them do? One moment, feminists are crying about rape being too high, and the next they are crying oppression when someone offers to lift a heavy object or the police try to protect them by having them escorted.

Well first off, I'm not a feminist.... and second off -

Are you trying to hold all members of a particular demographic accountable for actions of other members of that demographic?

28350

26th October 2011, 16:55

Can anyone comment on this view?

It is a proven fact that unwaged reproductive labor is disproportionately performed by women in even the most “progressive” areas of the imperialist metropolis (Scandinavia for example), not to speak of the incredible dichotomies prevailing in the majority of the world.

The immediate beneficiary of the direct and personal relations of exploitation quantified by this asymmetry is not the bourgeois as some Marxists like to insist. After all the way in which the burden of unpaid reproductive labor is distributed within the working class has no immediate effect on the wage (so long as capital remains able to “evade responsibility”). In this respect the gendered assignment of unwaged labor in the sphere of reproduction is different from the equally persistent super-exploitation of waged female labor in the sphere of production.

In fact the class which benefits from the gendered assignment of unpaid reproductive labor is the class of males as a group who perform a specific role within the prevailing relations of reproduction. Thus a factually violent class antagonism runs right through the heart of the working class dividing it in half.

In any other circumstance so called Marxists would recognize a relationship in which one group is consigned to perform unpaid labor for the physical and emotional maintenance of another-a relationship continually enforced by violence and terror as an antagonistic class contradiction. However when it comes to gender which is historically the original class contradiction it is always discovered that in this special case and despite all the otherwise universal principles of class struggle two unites into one!

Those who think this problem has been “solved” already by the neo-colonial readjustment of gender relations the assignment of male roles to the biologically and culturally female and so on have a great deal in common with the partisans of an America whose “post-racial” status is ensured by the election of Obama to the presidency.

The increasing assimilation of certain strata of women to dominant roles within the capitalist patriarchy only makes the contradiction more complex without subtracting any of its intensity. The class of men who parasitize off unwaged female labor are perhaps the numerically largest contingent of the global labor aristocracy-of proletarians with a real stake in the exploitation and subordination of other strata of the class.

The truth of this statement is written in blood everyday.

The construction of the proletariat as a truly unified political subject able to successfully carry out the transition to communism entails as its precondition the liquidation of men as a social class.

The division between waged productive and unwaged reproductive labor, the family as an economic and cultural unit all the preconditions for the perpetuation of gender must be attacked under the leadership of those who find themselves the objects of exploitation and subordination within these relations.

And one must not shrink from the use of antagonistic means to settle antagonistic contradictions.

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 16:58

my official response: dag that shit is crazy

i mean it is one of the questions i don't have an easy answer for though. its true in a lot of ways, the global proletariat is largely female.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:07

So a woman can walk down a dark street at night without having to worry about being raped?
So a woman can be elected president/prime minister of any country (the number of countries where women have led that country is very small)?
So a woman isn't pressured by societal double standards, such as being called and seen as a "slut" whilst men can sleep with as many women as they please without being called "sluts"?
So a woman doesn't have to do all of the housework, because their male partner (in the case of male/female couples) does his fair share?
So a woman doesn't have to abandon her career to look after her family, whilst a man can put his career first (and if, as you claim, men and women are paid the same wage for the same job, there should be no reason why the woman has to be the one who sacrifices her career)?
So women in many societies worldwide aren't second class citizens?
1. that has nothing to do with sexism but has to do with crime
2. yes in all western countries
3. this is't true at all
4. you know women could just stop this by no longer doing all the homework. It's as simple as that, because that will force the men to do they share
5. no. I dont know where you live where this is the case (maybe the deep south?)
6. not in any western society.

What I'm saying is, women do most of the housework and childcare. They are practically working 24 hours a day, whilst men usually work less than half of the day.
So women dont work?

Men's Rights Activists. Basically, they're a bunch of men who want society to return to the days of women being little more than the property of their husband. They hate the idea of losing their straight male privilege.

No, women often have priviliges in this society that men dont have, thats what mens rights is about.

No, it isn't. Most reported rapes are by men against women, and women usually have to worry about rapists or other perverts in places such as dark streets or public transportation.
Well it is holding a group collectively responsible for the actions of a few members of that group, which is retarded.

No, not at all, but men can help stop rape. Rapists tend to think that rape is something most men do. If men stopped laughing at rape jokes, or wearing t-shirts with similar stupid rape jokes on them, then that would have some effect. There's men who will see another man slip a pill into a woman's drink and won't say anything about it. There's men who will see a drunk woman being harassed by a man and won't do anything about it.
I have never in my life heard a rape joke WTF is that even? Can you give me any examples of rape jokes? And again your holding all men collectively responsible for the actions of a few men.

So white, straight males don't have authority and power in society just by being white, straight and male? Have you not noticed that a white male is often more respected than a black male, or that a straight male is more respected than a gay, bisexual, asexual or pansexual male?
No i havent noticed that.

No, it is actually being used correctly, or do you think societal expectations and gender roles are not oppression?
If societal expectations are not enforced you can simply choose not to live up to societal expectations. It's as simple as that

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:11

how many women can you name who are huge in public, artistic, or even academic discourse in the West?

now, do the same for men.
Most well known singers are women. There are lots of female celebrities. There are lots of female actors. I dont know why there are more men in academics maybe most women just dont choose to be an academic?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:13

haha

it might be legislated against but that doesn't mean shit. that's like saying "the West is not a violent society, as murder is not tolerated!"
No it's not, because violence against women is not tolerated. Now violence against men is a different story...

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 17:13

Most well known singers are women. There are lots of female celebrities. There are lots of female actors. I dont know why there are more men in academics maybe most women just dont choose to be an academic?

bro are you not a social scientist? because right there you've exactly underlined how women are discursively oppressed. women singers are almost entirely sexualized, female actors as well, and as for "more women choosing not to be academics" welp bro i don't think i should help you with that analysis, i think you can do it on your own.

graymouser

26th October 2011, 17:14

Oscar the Grouch:

I would refer to a Fourth International resolution from 1979 (link (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/fi/1963-1985/usfi/11thWC/women.htm)), which states in part:

Unpaid work by women in the home-cooking, cleaning, washing, caring for children-plays a specific role under capitalism. This household work is a necessary element in the reproduction of labor power sold to the capitalists (either a woman’s own labor power, her husband’s, or her children’s, or that of any other member of the family).

Other things being equal, if women did not perform unpaid labor inside the families of the working class, the general wage level would have to rise. Real wages would have to be high enough to purchase the goods and services which are now produced within the family. (Of course, the general standard of living necessary for the reproduction of labor power is a historically determined given at any time in any country. It cannot be drastically reduced without a crushing defeat of the working class.) Any general decrease of unpaid domestic labor by women would thus cut into total profits, changing the proportion between profits and wages in favor of the proletariat.

However useful it may be, a woman’s household work produces no commodities for the market and thus produces no value or surplus value. Nor does it directly enter into the process of capitalist exploitation. In value terms, unpaid domestic work in the family affects the rate of surplus value. Indirectly, it increases the total mass of social surplus value. This holds true whether such labor is performed by women, or shared by men.

It is the capitalist class, not men in general, and certainly not male wage earners, which profits from women’s unpaid labor in the household. This “exploitation” of the family of the toilers, the burden of which falls overwhelmingly on women, can be eradicated only by overthrowing capitalism and socializing domestic chores in the process of socialist reconstruction.
I think that this is a sufficient answer to an inadequate understanding of women's oppression - in real terms the unpaid work is contributing to the mass of surplus-value and not making the men wealthier.

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 17:17

No it's not, because violence against women is not tolerated. Now violence against men is a different story...

bro i watched my dad beat the shit out of my mom for the first five years of my life, he then went on beat the shit out of a series of women for the rest of his life. he never served any jail time (for that).

Western culture has a huge, unstated acceptance of violence towards women. if you think otherwise you're clearly just here to troll.

The Douche

26th October 2011, 17:17

The mother fucker's name is "hurpderp", can it be more clear that he's a troll?!

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 17:18

The mother fucker's name is "hurpderp", can it be more clear that he's a troll?!

einstein too ban fucking both

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:26

bro are you not a social scientist? because right there you've exactly underlined how women are discursively oppressed. women singers are almost entirely sexualized, female actors as well, and as for "more women choosing not to be academics" welp bro i don't think i should help you with that analysis, i think you can do it on your own.
Well i dont think loads of fans would go to concerts with female singers if it was only because the singer was sexy. And for female actors being sexualized i dont really see that in movies, can you give some examples of it? And seriously i dont know why there are fewer female academics than male academics.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:29

bro i watched my dad beat the shit out of my mom for the first five years of my life, he then went on beat the shit out of a series of women for the rest of his life. he never served any jail time (for that).

Western culture has a huge, unstated acceptance of violence towards women. if you think otherwise you're clearly just here to troll.
1. why did't he? Maybe there just was't enough evidence.

2. no i'm not seriously i have never seen anyone express that they think violence against women is accepted. Just because some people do it does't mean it's accepted. Can you give a clear example of how violence against women is accepted other than some do it?

Thirsty Crow

26th October 2011, 17:30

No, women often have priviliges in this society that men dont have, thats what mens rights is about.

I'm genuinely curious to hear what exactly these supposed privileges are.

@Graymouser: it is obvious that if unpaid domestic labour were to be eliminated that wages should then also have to rise (covering the costs of eating out and children's daycare, for example), but that misses the exact point of the quote provided by Oscar: the antagonistic relation within the family exists because in the overwhelming amount of cases it is solely the woman that is in one way or another coerced to provide domestic labour, and not the man, so it seems logical that a resolution for this aspect of the subordinate social position of women could take the form of a conflict over spare time in the household, meaning that men should also participate in the domestic acitivities in the same scope that women could if they were not the sole or the dominant source of this labour.

I don't know if this makes sense. Does it? :confused:

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:32

einstein too ban fucking both
I hate when people accuse me of being a troll because all i can say is i'm not troll.

By the way i thought sexists (which i'm not i believe in complete equality between men and women, most people actually think i'm pretty extreme for example i oppose gender segregated sports) where restricted not banned?

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 17:32

1. that has nothing to do with sexism but has to do with crime

Except that rape is a crime usually committed against women because they are women, so it is due to sexism in part. Yes, there are male rape victims and female rapists, but the majority of rapists are male and the majority of rape victims are female.

2. yes in all western countries

So, Americans would vote for a female president? Would the French? The Spanish? The Italians? Even Thatcher didn't believe she would see a female British PM in her lifetime, yet she did become one (sadly for the British working class, not because of her sex but because of her awful politics).

3. this is't true at all

Are you living in some sort of alternate reality? Are you seriously telling me that women are not called derogatory names simply for being sexually promiscuous? There's even people who think that women who act like "sluts" deserve to be raped because those people see them as sluts.

4. you know women could just stop this by no longer doing all the homework. It's as simple as that, because that will force the men to do they share

Women are brought up with the idea that it is their job to cook and clean (in general), and men are brought up with the idea that they don't need to help with the housework (in general). Don't you think that, by not doing the housework women could get men to do their fair share, it would have been tried already by most women?

5. no. I dont know where you live where this is the case (maybe the deep south?)

Actually, I'm not American at all, I'm British, and I find it very hard to believe that no woman in your part of the world has ever felt pressure to put her family before her career.

6. not in any western society.

And why do you think this?

So women dont work?

Of course women work, but they also have to do most, if not all, of the housework and childcare as well as their job, if they have one.

No, women often have priviliges in this society that men dont have, thats what mens rights is about.

I would love to know what these privileges are, because I don't believe for a minute that women have a single privilege over men unless it is on an individual basis and involves some other privilege (straight privilege, white privilege, rich privilege etc).

Well it is holding a group collectively responsible for the actions of a few members of that group, which is retarded.

I don't see why you just re-worded his argument when I already answered it. Also, have a verbal warning for using the word "retarded". We do not tolerate prejudiced language on this forum.

I have never in my life heard a rape joke WTF is that even?

Yes, you have. I find it very hard to believe that someone in the West would not have heard at least one rape joke.

Can you give me any examples of rape jokes?

Look them up on Google, or Facebook where's there's a load of jokes about rape.

And again your holding all men collectively responsible for the actions of a few men.

No, I'm not, and if you read my posts you will see that I am not.

No i havent noticed that.

Are you straight? If so, your sexuality is considered the default, "normal" sexuality and everyone assumes that you are straight. You won't need to come out to your parents, you won't be bullied because of your sexuality and you will be able to get married or at least have a civil union.

Are you male? If so, you won't need to fear rape, you won't be sexually harassed in the workplace or in public places. You won't be judged on your looks anywhere near as much as a woman, and your opinions and thoughts won't need a pretty face in order to be respected.

Are you white? If so, you won't hear racist slurs thrown at you from strangers, you won't face bullying or violence from racists who hate you because of the colour of your skin, you won't be crudely stereotyped, you are more likely to reach higher positions within your field and you won't be seen as a criminal or terrorist simply because of the colour of your skin.

If you haven't noticed your privileges from being part of certain groups, it is no wonder why you have no idea about the status of women in society.

If societal expectations are not enforced you can simply choose not to live up to societal expectations. It's as simple as that

That's all very well, but the problem is, societal expectations are enforced, and in some countries, they are very strictly enforced.

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 17:32

I hate when people accuse me of being a troll because all i can say is i'm not troll.

By the way i thought sexists (which i'm not i believe in complete equality between men and women, most people actually think i'm pretty extreme for example i oppose gender segregated sports) where restricted not banned?

sexist trolls should be banned

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 17:33

The mother fucker's name is "hurpderp", can it be more clear that he's a troll?!

I agree, I'm going to ban him.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 17:39

I'm genuinely curious to hear what exactly these supposed privileges are.
For example if a women wants to have sex but not a child, she can simply have an abortion (condoms are not 100% effective) while a man can choose to use a condom, but if it breaks and the women gets pregnant if the women does't want an abortion the man will be forced to pay child support even through he did't want the child in the first place. If a man reports to the police that he was raped by a women it is't taken seriously. If a man reports that his girlfriend/wife has been violent towards him to the police it is't taken seriously.

Now for a personal example. I was waiting at a bus stop, when the bus came a bunch of pretty drunk men blocked the door saying women first, only allowing women to come through. I eventually just pushed them away, fucking assholes.

Kitty_Paine

26th October 2011, 17:39

And for female actors being sexualized i dont really see that in movies, can you give some examples of it?

The study found female teen characters in movies are five times more likely to wear sexy clothing than men... In terms of showing skin, female teen characters are equally likely to be partly naked as the adult female characters — 30 percent — while male characters exhibit partial nudity only 8 percent of the time.

- By Jamshid Ghazi Askar (http://www.deseretnews.com/site/staff/3050/Jamshid-Ghazi-Askar.html), Deseret News - Link (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700129537/Study-finds-movie-industry-sexualizing-women-at-earlier-ages.html)

Have you never seen Jennifer's Body (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1131734/)? That movie was practically made to show off Megan Fox's body...

You wouldn't agree that in a lot of movies in the modern age women are dressed incredibly provocatively? Not to mention the main character (if male) usually has a sexy female compainion that usually ends up fucking him in some "steamy" scene... :p

Have you not been to the movies in 10 year?

I don't think there's anything really wrong about it, just for the record... but I was just shocked that you thought women weren't sexualized in movies a lot.

RadioRaheem84

26th October 2011, 17:41

Wow, I am at a loss for words at the extent of how far a "liberal" education can get someone. It still leads to reactionary conclusions.

The framework is so limited, it's sad.

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 17:51

For example if a women wants to have sex but not a child, she can simply have an abortion (condoms are not 100% effective) while a man can choose to use a condom, but if it breaks and the women gets pregnant if the women does't want an abortion the man will be forced to pay child support even through he did't want the child in the first place.

Well, it is the woman who has to carry the child for nine months, it is the woman who in almost every case will be the main caregiver of the child and it is usually the woman's life which is most disrupted by an unplanned and often unwanted pregnancy.

As for abortions, that's the woman's choice. It's not unfair to men that they can't decide whether a woman has an abortion or not.

If a man reports to the police that he was raped by a women it is't taken seriously.

This is a valid concern and many rapes, both against women and men, do go unreported, but it's mainly due to the idea that men can't be raped by women. Society sees it more as the man "getting lucky", especially if the woman is conventionally attractive. However, it is not a privilege that women have over men as the vast majority of male rape victims are raped by other men, and I'm fairly sure women would prefer to be equal rather than to have such "privileges" as being able to rape men with the small possibility that their crime won't be taken seriously.

If a man reports that his girlfriend/wife has been violent towards him to the police it is't taken seriously.

Again, this is a valid concern, but it is not a privilege women have over men.

Now for a personal example. I was waiting at a bus stop, when the bus came a bunch of pretty drunk men blocked the door saying women first, only allowing women to come through. I eventually just pushed them away, fucking assholes.

How is that a privilege, exactly?

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 18:03

Violence against women is certaintly not tolerated in modern western society.

Modern western society, where rape within marriage was only acknowledged and made a crime in the 90's.

Modern western society in which they actually had to pass laws to keep the "she's a slut she was asking for it" argument from being used in the courtroom (it still is, though).

Modern western society in which the first person blamed for rape is usually the woman herself, for being there, for wearing something, for not having a man with her, for going out alone, for being drunk, for...

2. yes in all western countries

Bring up the idea of a woman president and see how many comments about PMS you get.

Also, if women are equal, why are they so under-represented in political bodies? Or, shit, what about the sciences, even? Why are women so under-represented everywhere?

3. this is't true at all

You are out of your goddamn mind if you believe this isn't true. I mean, shit dude this is something that people even acknowledge.

6. not in any western society.

Ah so you do have an opinion on women and oppression, I see.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 18:06

For example if a women wants to have sex but not a child, she can simply have an abortion

If that's even an option for her.

If a man reports to the police that he was raped by a women it is't taken seriously. If a man reports that his girlfriend/wife has been violent towards him to the police it is't taken seriously.

This is thanks to gender roles and stereotypes, the things that feminists want to get rid of.

Now for a personal example. I was waiting at a bus stop, when the bus came a bunch of pretty drunk men blocked the door saying women first, only allowing women to come through. I eventually just pushed them away, fucking assholes.

Ahahahahahahahahaha

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 18:11

http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/archive/t-387483.html

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/10/19/steven-greenstreet-proves-hes-definitely-not-a-misogynist-by-making-rape-jokes/

http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/an-addendum-on-rape-jokes/

Happy Reading "Einstein." Cheers :thumbup1:

Oh ya. Also on Rape Culture:

An example would be a female rape victim being blamed for her being raped because of how she dressed or acted

And

The general unwillingness of police and district attorneys to prosecute rapes where force was not involved or where the victim had some sort of relationship with the aggressor is also cited as a motivation for date rape and campus rape.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture#cite_note-herman-7) Rape culture is also closely related to slut-shaming and victim blaming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming), where rape victims are considered at fault for being raped, and it is argued that this connection is due to the presence of a culture that shames all female sexuality.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture#cite_note-herman-7) The low percentage of rapes that are reported (around 10%) due to fear and shaming is often cited as a symptom of a rape culture
And

In February 2011, seventeen United States veterans filed suit against the Pentagon and defense secretary Robert Gates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Gates) and former secretary Donald Rumsfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfield), alleging that they allowed a culture in the military where rape was unevenly reported and punished. In several of the plaintiff's cases, the victim was forced to work with the accused rapist after reporting them for sexual assault. Unit commanders often have heavy influence over military rape cases, and less than one in five cases are prosecuted. [17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture#cite_note-17) According to a 2011 Newsweek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsweek) report, 1 in 5 females and 1 in 15 males in the United States military reported having been sexually assaulted by servicemembers

This was already linked to you. But Im almost certain you never had any intention of reading it, so I just posted it for you anyway. No work involved, no need to leave the page. Cheers :thumbup1:

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 18:15

As for abortions, that's the woman's choice. It's not unfair to men that they can't decide whether a woman has an abortion or not.

Tho I agree with everything else, I have my disagreements about this view. It's my (as a man) child too.
I don't see how to effectively rectify this situation, it's not as if I (a man) have to carry the baby for 9 months. So I find it best to leave it in the hands of the woman. But I know, as a man, that I would be terribly upset with the woman if she had an abortion and I didn't want her to.

Rusty Shackleford

26th October 2011, 18:32

Glass Ceiling, Flowerpot perspective, and Wage discrimination.

graymouser

26th October 2011, 18:35

@Graymouser: it is obvious that if unpaid domestic labour were to be eliminated that wages should then also have to rise (covering the costs of eating out and children's daycare, for example), but that misses the exact point of the quote provided by Oscar: the antagonistic relation within the family exists because in the overwhelming amount of cases it is solely the woman that is in one way or another coerced to provide domestic labour, and not the man, so it seems logical that a resolution for this aspect of the subordinate social position of women could take the form of a conflict over spare time in the household, meaning that men should also participate in the domestic acitivities in the same scope that women could if they were not the sole or the dominant source of this labour.
The quote posted by Oscar misses the point itself. The reason for the unpaid labor is not the relative enrichment of men's free time but the provision of unpaid labor in the interests of the bourgeoisie, however indirectly. The family - and therefore the labor provided by the woman - is the form that this takes, and it is reinforced on a society-wide level.

To put it simply. If the problem were the unequal distribution of housework and the work of childcare in and of itself, it would be solved by a shift in gender norms in which men did more of this work. And there are instances where this does happen! The fundamental problem is not who is doing the unpaid work, but that it is being done at all. So to ascribe its primary problem as the leisure time gained by the man is to miss the point entirely.

Thirsty Crow

26th October 2011, 18:42

For example if a women wants to have sex but not a child, she can simply have an abortion (condoms are not 100% effective) while a man can choose to use a condom, but if it breaks and the women gets pregnant if the women does't want an abortion the man will be forced to pay child support even through he did't want the child in the first place.
I'm havinbg a hard time understanding how access to abortion can be considered a privilege. As RedAnarchist stated, it's the woman's choice since the effects of the decision will be felt by her. This can't be construed as privilege in aany meaningful sense of the word.

If a man reports to the police that he was raped by a women it is't taken seriously. If a man reports that his girlfriend/wife has been violent towards him to the police it is't taken seriously.This also hardly amounts to privilege since it basically represents an effect of systematic sexism. In other words, men who were raped by women would not be taken seriously because of the way in which male sexuality is socially constructed - something which connects wit the issue of ostracizing and insulting people for their promiscuity (whereby males who are sexually very active are deemed as "conquerors" and women "sluts"). And men generally occupy the dominant position in the construction and dissemination of cultural and social attitudes towards male sexuality.

Now for a personal example. I was waiting at a bus stop, when the bus came a bunch of pretty drunk men blocked the door saying women first, only allowing women to come through. I eventually just pushed them away, fucking assholes.
Seriously, you intend to argue that women are priviledged becasue they can sometimes be granthed the right to pass through a door before men do so? Wow. Anyhow, this represents somewhat of an old fashined custom dating back from times which saw an even more pronounced, monolithic and explicit subordination of women to men. So again, how can this be thought of as privilege escapes me completely.

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 18:46

Seriously, you intend to argue that women are priviledged becasue they can sometimes be granthed the right to pass through a door before men do so? Wow. Anyhow, this represents somewhat of an old fashined custom dating back from times which saw an even more pronounced, monolithic and explicit subordination of women to men. So again, how can this be thought of as privilege escapes me completely.

And chivalry was only for noble and royal women, not all women.

Kadir Ateş

26th October 2011, 19:02

Can some you give me any examples of how women are still oppressed in modern, western society?

Can you give me an example of how they are not?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 19:15

Except that rape is a crime usually committed against women because they are women, so it is due to sexism in part. Yes, there are male rape victims and female rapists, but the majority of rapists are male and the majority of rape victims are female.
Well the individual rapists may be sexist according to some definitions, that does't make society as a whole sexist. What do you think society should do against rape more than it already does (other than becoming socialist)? Actually many politicians try to boost they popularity by wanting harsher sentences for rape.

So, Americans would vote for a female president? Would the French? The Spanish? The Italians? Even Thatcher didn't believe she would see a female British PM in her lifetime, yet she did become one (sadly for the British working class, not because of her sex but because of her awful politics).
Yes they would. Do you think it would be good if Thatcher was elected because of her sex? Are you sexist?

Are you living in some sort of alternate reality? Are you seriously telling me that women are not called derogatory names simply for being sexually promiscuous? There's even people who think that women who act like "sluts" deserve to be raped because those people see them as sluts.
As far as i know women are only called sluts if they have sex with someone else than they boyfriend. Men who do so are socially repulsed too.

Women are brought up with the idea that it is their job to cook and clean (in general), and men are brought up with the idea that they don't need to help with the housework (in general). Don't you think that, by not doing the housework women could get men to do their fair share, it would have been tried already by most women?
They certaintly arent in any family i know. And i dont know why women who complain about doing all the housework dont just stop doing it, maybe they are afraid of being divorced? I dont know it would seem like a pretty effecient tactic to me.

Actually, I'm not American at all, I'm British, and I find it very hard to believe that no woman in your part of the world has ever felt pressure to put her family before her career.
I'm in Denmark, and here women certaintly arent pressured to give up they career.

And why do you think this?
Well how are they second class citizens?

Of course women work, but they also have to do most, if not all, of the housework and childcare as well as their job, if they have one.

They dont have to do it, no one is forcing it on them (or if that is the case who is?).

I would love to know what these privileges are, because I don't believe for a minute that women have a single privilege over men unless it is on an individual basis and involves some other privilege (straight privilege, white privilege, rich privilege etc).
To quoto myself

For example if a women wants to have sex but not a child, she can simply have an abortion (condoms are not 100% effective) while a man can choose to use a condom, but if it breaks and the women gets pregnant if the women does't want an abortion the man will be forced to pay child support even through he did't want the child in the first place. If a man reports to the police that he was raped by a women it is't taken seriously. If a man reports that his girlfriend/wife has been violent towards him to the police it is't taken seriously.

Now for a personal example. I was waiting at a bus stop, when the bus came a bunch of pretty drunk men blocked the door saying women first, only allowing women to come through. I eventually just pushed them away, fucking assholes.

I don't see why you just re-worded his argument when I already answered it. Also, have a verbal warning for using the word "retarded". We do not tolerate prejudiced language on this forum.
You did't actually respond to his argument in a staisfactory way. Okay i'm going to stop using the word retarded, even through that is what i believe.

Yes, you have. I find it very hard to believe that someone in the West would not have heard at least one rape joke.
I seriously havent in my life heard a rape joke.

No, I'm not, and if you read my posts you will see that I am not.
Okay than.

Are you straight? If so, your sexuality is considered the default, "normal" sexuality and everyone assumes that you are straight. You won't need to come out to your parents, you won't be bullied because of your sexuality and you will be able to get married or at least have a civil union.
Yes i'm straight/heterosexual. Well the reason heterosexuality is considered the default is because the vast majority of people are heterosexual. I dont see anything wrong with assuming that the average randon person you meet somewhere is heterosexual because that is what most people are. As for marriage it is true that is the privilege of heterosexual monogamous people, which is obviously unfair.

Are you male? If so, you won't need to fear rape, you won't be sexually harassed in the workplace or in public places. You won't be judged on your looks anywhere near as much as a woman, and your opinions and thoughts won't need a pretty face in order to be respected.
Yes i'm male. While it is true that i propably wont have to fear rape, there lots of other crimes to fear like murder, robbery etc. As for women with opinions having to have a "pretty face" in order to have her opinions respected, i just dont see that in my everyday life. I cant know what people privately feel but i dont think most people thinks a women have to be pretty in order to take her opinions serious. It's certaintly not something i see in the media either. As an everyday example most female politicians arent that pretty.

Are you white? If so, you won't hear racist slurs thrown at you from strangers, you won't face bullying or violence from racists who hate you because of the colour of your skin, you won't be crudely stereotyped, you are more likely to reach higher positions within your field and you won't be seen as a criminal or terrorist simply because of the colour of your skin.
Yes i'm white. Well basicaly i agree with you there still is a lot of racism in society.

If you haven't noticed your privileges from being part of certain groups, it is no wonder why you have no idea about the status of women in society.
Well i certaintly dont feel privileged.

That's all very well, but the problem is, societal expectations are enforced, and in some countries, they are very strictly enforced.
Can you give me some examples of how societal expectations are enforced?

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 19:16

Well i certaintly dont feel privileged.

almost like privilege allows you to not feel privileged while still enjoying it. huh.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 19:17

- By Jamshid Ghazi Askar (http://www.deseretnews.com/site/staff/3050/Jamshid-Ghazi-Askar.html), Deseret News - Link (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700129537/Study-finds-movie-industry-sexualizing-women-at-earlier-ages.html)

Have you never seen Jennifer's Body (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1131734/)? That movie was practically made to show off Megan Fox's body...

You wouldn't agree that in a lot of movies in the modern age women are dressed incredibly provocatively? Not to mention the main character (if male) usually has a sexy female compainion that usually ends up fucking him in some "steamy" scene... :p

Have you not been to the movies in 10 year?

I don't think there's anything really wrong about it, just for the record... but I was just shocked that you thought women weren't sexualized in movies a lot.
Well you could just as well say men are sexualised, because looks are also a big part of movies for male actors, especially in action movies.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 19:18

Wow, I am at a loss for words at the extent of how far a "liberal" education can get someone. It still leads to reactionary conclusions.

The framework is so limited, it's sad.
What are you talking about?

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 19:18

Well you could just as well say men are sexualised, because looks are also a big part of movies for male actors, especially in action movies.

You could say it. It would be wrong, but you totally could.

socialistjustin

26th October 2011, 19:24

Well you could just as well say men are sexualised, because looks are also a big part of movies for male actors, especially in action movies.

This is actually true. You don't see many overweight action stars. Most have huge muscles and you always get a few scenes with their shirts off. Both sexes are overly sexualized and expected to look a certain way. Women are more overly sexualized, but its not like it doesn't happen to men as well.

Rusty Shackleford

26th October 2011, 19:31

i dont think it is as much about sexualizing the sexes but genderizing them.

machismo and femininity. ones 'sexuality' is also usually their gender expression.

For women, they are expected to fall under the western gender expression of sexyness in genereal, and lack of physical strength as well.
For men, it is about being sexually aggressive and strong.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 19:37

Well you could just as well say men are sexualised, because looks are also a big part of movies for male actors, especially in action movies.

I am pretty sure the evidence she just provided would be a pretty solid argument against that, though.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 19:38

This is actually true. You don't see many overweight action stars. Most have huge muscles and you always get a few scenes with their shirts off. Both sexes are overly sexualized and expected to look a certain way. Women are more overly sexualized, but its not like it doesn't happen to men as well.

Men in media are portrayed to look like what boys want to be. Women in media are portrayed as what boys want them to be.

hatzel

26th October 2011, 19:44

A quick reminder to everybody:

I dont if women are still opressed thats why i'm asking. Currently i have no opinion on whatever or not women are oppresed.

I shan't comment further, but perhaps somebody's been telling porkies...

Ocean Seal

26th October 2011, 19:46

Women are 50% of the population, work 66% of the world's working hours, control 10% of the world's income, and 1% of the world's property. How are they not oppressed?

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 19:47

Well the individual rapists may be sexist according to some definitions, that does't make society as a whole sexist.

Society is sexist for many different reasons.

What do you think society should do against rape more than it already does (other than becoming socialist)?

For a start, social conditioning and gender roles need to go. I'm not sure if you could ever have a society where rape doesn't happen, though.

Actually many politicians try to boost they popularity by wanting harsher sentences for rape.

And yet that never happens, and the majority of rapes still go unreported. You cannot expect politicians to push through any real change.

Yes they would.

So, you think Americans would stop making jokes about Hilary Clinton based on her sex and vote for her as President if they thought she was a good choice? How come there has never been a female politician in the United States who ran for President with a good chance of being elected?

Do you think it would be good if Thatcher was elected because of her sex? Are you sexist?

Of course not.

As far as i know women are only called sluts if they have sex with someone else than they boyfriend.

No, it's not just women who cheat on their boyfriends, or have sex with others if they are in an open relationship. It's any young woman who happens to enjoy sex who is called a slut.

Men who do so are socially repulsed too.

Only if they cheat on their partners, and even then if they are rich and/or famous they wouldn't be as repulsed as society as a working class man.

They certaintly arent in any family i know.

That's just your personal experience, which is going to be quite different to the experiences of someone else.

And i dont know why women who complain about doing all the housework dont just stop doing it, maybe they are afraid of being divorced?

Why would they fear being divorced if they stopped doing the housework? I see no logic in that statement at all.

I dont know it would seem like a pretty effecient tactic to me.

Maybe it would work for some individuals. Remember, you're looking at this with the mindset of a male who doesn't seem to fully realise his male privilege.

I'm in Denmark, and here women certaintly arent pressured to give up they career.

Do you have any evidence that Danish women face less pressure to put family before career?

Well how are they second class citizens?

Isn't it obvious just from reading this thread why women are second class citizens?

They dont have to do it, no one is forcing it on them (or if that is the case who is?).

Societal expectations and gender roles. How easily do you think you would be able to avoid submitting to such expectations and roles as a man? For a woman, it's even harder.

To quoto myself

This has already been answered in this thread.

You did't actually respond to his argument in a staisfactory way. Okay i'm going to stop using the word retarded, even through that is what i believe.

How did I not?

I seriously havent in my life heard a rape joke.

They are very common, much more than you think. Even the "kitchen" and "make me a sandwich" jokes are sexist enough.

Yes i'm straight/heterosexual. Well the reason heterosexuality is considered the default is because the vast majority of people are heterosexual.

What I mean was that society sees heterosexuality not only as the default, but as normality, so other sexualities are seen as abnormal, and therefore lesser.

I dont see anything wrong with assuming that the average randon person you meet somewhere is heterosexual because that is what most people are.

You're assuming that everyone is heterosexual, when that isn't the case.

As for marriage it is true that is the privilege of heterosexual monogamous people, which is obviously unfair.

In some countries, gay marriage is legal and in the UK it may soon be legal as well.

Yes i'm male. While it is true that i propably wont have to fear rape, there lots of other crimes to fear like murder, robbery etc.

Yes, but do you fear those crimes happening every time a female approaches you or follows you? Do you fear those crimes when a female sexually harasses you on a bus or train? You will almost never be murdered or robbed because of your biological sex.

As for women with opinions having to have a "pretty face" in order to have her opinions respected, i just dont see that in my everyday life.

It's quite common in many places.

I cant know what people privately feel but i dont think most people thinks a women have to be pretty in order to take her opinions serious. It's certaintly not something i see in the media either.

i don't believe that at all. Are you telling me that the Danish media does not discriminate against older or less conventionally attractive women? That the Danish media takes the opinions of conventionally unattractive women as seriously as it does the opinions of conventionally attractive women?

As an everyday example most female politicians arent that pretty.

Do you think a conventionally unattractive woman could be an actress, or a model, or a television presenter?

Yes i'm white. Well basicaly i agree with you there still is a lot of racism in society.

And there's a lot of sexism as well.

Well i certaintly dont feel privileged.

I want you to really think about this - are you sure that you have never once experienced a situation where your biological sex, sexuality or the colour of your skin gave you some sort of advantage or power?

Can you give me some examples of how societal expectations are enforced?

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/149045/disney%E2%80%99s_racist_stereotyping_and_gender_ro les_remain_un-tangled
http://www.genderads.com/Gender_Ads.com.html

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:05

Well, it is the woman who has to carry the child for nine months, it is the woman who in almost every case will be the main caregiver of the child and it is usually the woman's life which is most disrupted by an unplanned and often unwanted pregnancy.

As for abortions, that's the woman's choice. It's not unfair to men that they can't decide whether a woman has an abortion or not.
I agree that the women should herself decide whetever or not she wants an abortion, what i have a problem with is, if a man decides to have sex without a condom, and he impragnates a women without wanting a child, if the women decides to give birth he has to pay child support even through he did't want even want the child.

This is a valid concern and many rapes, both against women and men, do go unreported, but it's mainly due to the idea that men can't be raped by women. Society sees it more as the man "getting lucky", especially if the woman is conventionally attractive. However, it is not a privilege that women have over men as the vast majority of male rape victims are raped by other men, and I'm fairly sure women would prefer to be equal rather than to have such "privileges" as being able to rape men with the small possibility that their crime won't be taken seriously.
And i would also prefer to be equal to women instead of they having some privileges and otherwise being oppresed (if that is the case i'm not sure).

Again, this is a valid concern, but it is not a privilege women have over men.
Well since it is women protected against prosecution it would be right to call it a female privilege would't it?

How is that a privilege, exactly?
They being allowed to enter the bus before any males? Seriously cant you see how this is i privilege?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:12

Modern western society, where rape within marriage was only acknowledged and made a crime in the 90's.

Modern western society in which they actually had to pass laws to keep the "she's a slut she was asking for it" argument from being used in the courtroom (it still is, though).

Modern western society in which the first person blamed for rape is usually the woman herself, for being there, for wearing something, for not having a man with her, for going out alone, for being drunk, for...
1. well only in some of the more backwards western socities
2. well any argument can be used in a courtroom cant it? Does't mean the judges has to accept as a legitimate argument.
3. thats just not true at all how can you even say that? Off course the one who commited the crime is the one who is blamed.

Bring up the idea of a woman president and see how many comments about PMS you get.

Also, if women are equal, why are they so under-represented in political bodies? Or, shit, what about the sciences, even? Why are women so under-represented everywhere?
Why are men under represented in nursing and other caring professions?

You are out of your goddamn mind if you believe this isn't true. I mean, shit dude this is something that people even acknowledge.
Okay.

Ah so you do have an opinion on women and oppression, I see.
Whaaat????

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 20:16

I agree that the women should herself decide whetever or not she wants an abortion, what i have a problem with is, if a man decides to have sex without a condom, and he impragnates a women without wanting a child, if the women decides to give birth he has to pay child support even through he did't want even want the child.

Then he should have worn a condom, shouldn't he? People need to be taught more about safe sex, and that includes teaching men that a condom will go a long way towards preventing any unplanned pregnancies.

And i would also prefer to be equal to women instead of they having some privileges and otherwise being oppresed (if that is the case i'm not sure).

What privilege do women get from society not believing that men can't be raped by women?

Well since it is women protected against prosecution it would be right to call it a female privilege would't it?

Women aren't protected from prosecution for being women, it is society assuming that women don't rape men or beat up their male partners, when such things do happen.

They being allowed to enter the bus before any males? Seriously cant you see how this is i privilege?

There is a bunch of drunk men on a bus. Those drunk men are much more uninhibited than they would be when sober. They see women waiting at the stop, and decide to do something they most likely wouldn't do when drunk.

This is not privilege for the women, it is basically them being let on the bus by a bunch of drunks before men.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:16

If that's even an option for her.
It pretty much is everywhere in the developed world.

This is thanks to gender roles and stereotypes, the things that feminists want to get rid of.
I'm not criticizing feminists

Ahahahahahahahahaha
This is not at all funny, and everyone who is even a little bit serious about gender equality would want to get rid of this kind of discrimination. It's not only serious if it's discrimination against women.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:18

Is there any way i can give negative reputation or dislike a post or something like that?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:22

Glass Ceiling, Flowerpot perspective, and Wage discrimination.
The glass ceiling is a myth, do you have any evidence to prove that there is a glass ceiling? And what is the flowerpot perspective?

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 20:23

1. well only in some of the more backwards western socities

Why does that matter?

2. well any argument can be used in a courtroom cant it? Does't mean the judges has to accept as a legitimate argument.

No, "any argument" cannot, and judges are human beings and therefore inclined to have their own biases and prejudices. There is no such thing as an infallible, truly unbiased judge.

3. thats just not true at all how can you even say that? Off course the one who commited the crime is the one who is blamed.

You have to be kidding. Do you seriously not realise that society will jump on any reason to blame a rape victim for what happened to her?

Why are men under represented in nursing and other caring professions?

Gender roles and societal expectations. Men are not meant to be caring, nurturing and sensitive, and society likes to mock men who become nurses or some other caring profession, assuming that they are less of a man for doing so.

Okay.

Seriously, are you trolling? You just seem too unaware of how Western society is.

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 20:24

The glass ceiling is a myth, do you have any evidence to prove that there is a glass ceiling?

This is just idiotic now. Do you have any evidence that says that it is a myth?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:27

I'm havinbg a hard time understanding how access to abortion can be considered a privilege. As RedAnarchist stated, it's the woman's choice since the effects of the decision will be felt by her. This can't be construed as privilege in aany meaningful sense of the word
I'm not saying that abortion is a privilege, but being able to have unprotected sex and after that being able to decide whatever or not you want to take care of a child or pay child support is a privilege.

This also hardly amounts to privilege since it basically represents an effect of systematic sexism. In other words, men who were raped by women would not be taken seriously because of the way in which male sexuality is socially constructed - something which connects wit the issue of ostracizing and insulting people for their promiscuity (whereby males who are sexually very active are deemed as "conquerors" and women "sluts"). And men generally occupy the dominant position in the construction and dissemination of cultural and social attitudes towards male sexuality.
Well it still is a female privilege, i'm not saying it's not the result of sexism, it clearly is.

Seriously, you intend to argue that women are priviledged becasue they can sometimes be granthed the right to pass through a door before men do so? Wow. Anyhow, this represents somewhat of an old fashined custom dating back from times which saw an even more pronounced, monolithic and explicit subordination of women to men. So again, how can this be thought of as privilege escapes me completely.
I'm not saying that females are as a whole priviledged but that is an example of a specific privilege that only females have. And while it may be old fashined it is still practised.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:29

And chivalry was only for noble and royal women, not all women.
What do you mean with WAS? It clearly still IS.

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:31

You could say it. It would be wrong, but you totally could.
No it would't

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:32

Men in media are portrayed to look like what boys want to be. Women in media are portrayed as what boys want them to be.
How do you know what women want to be?

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:33

Women are 50% of the population, work 66% of the world's working hours, control 10% of the world's income, and 1% of the world's property. How are they not oppressed?
You got any statistics to back that up?

Thirsty Crow

26th October 2011, 20:38

I'm not saying that abortion is a privilege, but being able to have unprotected sex and after that being able to decide whatever or not you want to take care of a child or pay child support is a privilege.No, it's not a privilege, it's a right that follows from the basic fact that the overall brunt of the decision will be carried by the woman. You've got some twisted notion of "privilege".

Well it still is a female privilege, i'm not saying it's not the result of sexism, it clearly is.Again, your ridiculously flawed notion of privilege is obvious. It's inaccurate to use the term in this case as well, especially since the phenomena represents a sort of a "by-pruduct" of systematic social and cultural processes which subordinate women and tie them to an inferior scial position.
But yeah, I'm all for an elimination of both aspects.

I'm not saying that females are as a whole priviledged but that is an example of a specific privilege that only females have. And while it may be old fashined it is still practised.But now you've changed your story. We started with your assumption that women, all of them, as a group, are priviledged in some ways, gender priviledged. And this example is just ridiculous, especially in the light of your recognition of widespread sexism and its effects - both on women and men.

brigadista

26th October 2011, 20:40

yes all over the world

Whatabouttehmenz?

26th October 2011, 20:58

Then he should have worn a condom, shouldn't he? People need to be taught more about safe sex, and that includes teaching men that a condom will go a long way towards preventing any unplanned pregnancies.
What if the condom breaks during sex and it results in a pregnancy, and the women decides to give birth, why the fuck should the man pay child support than?

What privilege do women get from society not believing that men can't be raped by women?
Being able to rape men without being prosecuted?

Women aren't protected from prosecution for being women, it is society assuming that women don't rape men or beat up their male partners, when such things do happen.
AKA protected form prosecution.

There is a bunch of drunk men on a bus. Those drunk men are much more uninhibited than they would be when sober. They see women waiting at the stop, and decide to do something they most likely wouldn't do when drunk.

This is not privilege for the women, it is basically them being let on the bus by a bunch of drunks before men.
Do you think a bunch of drunk women would do that towards a man???

Hexen

26th October 2011, 21:04

I think it should be completely obvious that western society is run by wealthy white christian males who control the means of production while everyone else below are subjects and their lens are projected into society (the source of society's sexism such as rape culture, slut shaming, etc what can be traced back to (since it traces back to Christianity and western Greek philosophy I think), also from most movies, books, games, etc) as a tool to keep the lower classes divided (hence why racism, sexism, etc exists) and shift people's away from the real problem which is their very own system Capitalism.

Well question is, how do women here fight back against this oppression (well for example how can a woman remain sexually promiscuous? How can they escape the cops like one mentioned earlier?) that currently exist in western society at least for now until a post-revolutionary society comes?

Franz Fanonipants

26th October 2011, 21:18

can we please ban this asshole guys

Hivemind

26th October 2011, 21:19

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 21:32

3. thats just not true at all how can you even say that? Off course the one who commited the crime is the one who is blamed.

Seriously you have never in your life heard the "she had it coming" response?

Why are men under represented in nursing and other caring professions?

Got any stats to back that up, or are you just assuming that is so, because.. you know... nursing and caring are "womanly" things?

Whaaat????
I think it's pretty clear to everyone here that you don't believe women are less equal than men in modern society, and as such DO have an opinion on the issue. :rolleyes:

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 21:38

can we please ban this asshole guys

Id rather they start banning people who ask for bans at every chance they get.... ;)

Kitty_Paine

26th October 2011, 22:57

Well you could just as well say men are sexualised, because looks are also a big part of movies for male actors, especially in action movies.

Maybe, but this is besides the argument. And men can be... a little, but the point is females are far more sexualized in films than males. That's a fact. And it's obvious if you've seen a decent amount of movies in the past 10 years. Not to mention that news article I posted.

Again, I don't really have a problem with what other women do with their bodies, etc. I don't have a problem with strippers much less a nude scene in a film. I'm just stating facts, that's all.

Just making my original point to your question which is, hell yes, women are sexualized in movies.

Rusty Shackleford

26th October 2011, 23:00

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/302686_10150864780310203_569625202_20960149_205815 3693_n.jpg

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 23:05

What do you mean with WAS? It clearly still IS.

I meant back in the Middle Ages.

RedAnarchist

26th October 2011, 23:15

What if the condom breaks during sex and it results in a pregnancy, and the women decides to give birth, why the fuck should the man pay child support than?

Because it's his child? If a man doesn't realise that sex can lead to pregnancy, and if a man doesn't realise that their condom might break during sex, then why is he even having vaginal sex with a woman?

Being able to rape men without being prosecuted?

That's not a privilege as it is not something that women gain from society.

AKA protected form prosecution.

No, it's not. Society doesn't do it to protect women from prosecution, it does it because men are "not supposed" to be rape victims or victims of domestic violence in the eyes of society.

Do you think a bunch of drunk women would do that towards a man???

Possibly. If they're drunk, they might do something they wouldn't do when sober.

Kitty_Paine

26th October 2011, 23:34

What if the condom breaks during sex and it results in a pregnancy, and the women decides to give birth, why the fuck should the man pay child support than?

RedAnarchist already made a comment but I had to say something. The fact that you actually think this is honestly a little disturbing to me.

When two people have sex, there's a understanding there that obviously the woman could get pregnant. Both people know this, and if it happened it would be both of their faults based on the fact they both knew the risks involved. It's a risk both parties are taking, therefore both have responsibility over the outcome.

It's like saying, "I'm gonna take this risk with you, that involves equal contribution from both of us but if something "bad" happens, I'm out... bye."

Now I understand that in your example the guy doesn't want the kid, but the woman does. He helped create that child, and he took the risk of having a child by having sex with that woman. So how in the hell is he not in someway responsible for that child's well-being?

Besides, what kind of low life would refuse to pay child support in that situation? Not you I hope...

The Stalinator

26th October 2011, 23:53

Violence against women is certaintly not tolerated in modern western society.

lol no (http://clutchmagonline.com/2011/10/domestic-violence-decriminalized-in-topeka-kansas%E2%80%A6is-your-city-next/)

The Stalinator

27th October 2011, 00:03

I'm only popping in to say that I find it lamentable that there's quite a few women out there who use their sex to systematically fuck people over. I personally know of a few who took the condom used after sex with their partner, turned it inside out and shoved it up their vaginas in the hope of getting pregnant to basically trap the guy into paying child support. Or women who cry rape when nothing happened just to fuck a guy's life up for whatever reason (and unless you have a really good lawyer, she will win a lot of the time), among a few other things.

I agree that women and men should be equal, but there's a lot of women who need to stop taking advantage of situations and of people. And there's also a lot of women who always complain that they're not equal and that men are pigs but still want to be treated like princesses and don't understand that equality = equal responsibilities.

Of course, this isn't a majority of women, in fact quite a minority, but it's still very lamentable that it happens.

As an ardent feminist I have to agree. Just like there are manipulative men who lie and use their privilege to fuck people over, there are manipulative woman who lie and use their position to fuck people over as well, and it's not sexist to acknowledge that.

Those kinda girls make us look like shit, let me tell you.

I consider them sexist in a strange way. They choose to enforce female stereotypes, and choose to let themselves be seen as nothing but lying sex objects -- therefore stratifying peoples' negative opinions of other women. That's not what we need.

There really isn't a way to say this without sounding sexist. But goddamnit it needs to be said, we just can't ignore it.

Meridian

27th October 2011, 00:24

Men don't work anywhere near as many hours as women. When men do their fair share of the housework, or women get paid for doing the housework, that will mean something.

Your response subtly changes the topic. I could argue that if we are to consider unpaid social labor, we should also consider indirect access to means calculable along with wages, but again, this is a diversion.

The question was whether women make less than men in wages. The answer depends on whether you are asking if a woman in the same position as a man will make less than him, or whether women on average tend to make less in wages than men do through a year.

These questions can not answer much, because you are generalizing for the entire Earth. In each nation it will be different, for each class, and so on. I know that in sections of Europe the answer to the first question is no, while the answer to the second question is yes.

Hexen

27th October 2011, 01:29

Black_Rose

27th October 2011, 01:57

I doubt Einstein created this thread to seek information (hence the forum is the learning section remember?) rather he created this thread to troll/argue and causing trouble for everyone in this thread.

Another thing I find suspicious that another user name and recently banned "hurpderp" share the same views which makes me wonder if these are MRA trolls ganging up on us or Einstein's double account. hmmm....

Were there other MRA trolls here (I am on other threads and possibly in the restricted section) before?

kahimikarie

27th October 2011, 02:15

the condom thing is kind of an urban myth. at least, all of the evidence shows men are much more likely to tamper with condoms than women. and the amount of child support women get is very little and a lot of times unpaid anyway.

idk what to say to "how are women still oppressed" in the face of overwhelming evidence. i wish you could spend one week as a woman and have to put up with sexual harassment, slut shaming, sexist slurs/"jokes", rape culture, the sexist as hell curriculum in school, and hearing things like the lovely tropes expressed in this thread about women being evil conniving whores who tamper with condoms to get child support payment that i have to deal with constantly.

btw even if men and women were paid the same in the same jobs (which they aren't), this doesn't get at the huge wage gap between men and women because our society values work that women go into (healthcare, education, social work etc) way less, a large part because those jobs are typically held by women.

Azraella

27th October 2011, 02:20

What if the condom breaks during sex and it results in a pregnancy, and the women decides to give birth, why the fuck should the man pay child support than?

Why the fuck shouldn't he?

Seriously. This is such a ridiculous retort. Women do not control capital in the same way men do. Wealth is power. There is a wealth gap and a wage gap. It's worse for women economically and single motherhood is an indication of poverty. Recognizing that there are some women that do screw men out of money* and that child support can be very bad does not mean that men are being oppressed for giving that support. In fact it highlights woman's oppression and her dependency on men.

Thanks to capitalism and patriarchy women are dependent on men. The liberal feminist movement has very little to address these serious issues. We can do better. We must do better.

*The attitudes in this post and in some of your other posts are disgusting prevarications of the truth. It's one thing to aknowledge that yes, men can be hurt by patriarchy and capitalism too, but to assert that they are being treated unfairly is absurd.

Misanthrope

27th October 2011, 02:23

I think a better question would be, how are women not oppressed?

Hexen

27th October 2011, 02:34

Of course I would also like to ask how can women fight back against this oppression?

Franz Fanonipants

27th October 2011, 03:20

Of course I would also like to ask how can women fight back against this oppression?

the SCUM manifesto

j/k idk ask women bro

jmpeer

27th October 2011, 03:32

Einstein has made many valid points. In the US there is virtually no feminist movement because there is virtually no need. Further intervention in people's lives would be unwelcomed. The arguments here are ridiculous and the few instances of cited research is clearly cherry picked by conclusion with no regard to the research process. The problem with people like feminists today is, even when there isn't a problem, they create one, and if you disgaree, they put you on the opposite side of their black and white view of the world and make you an enemy. Generally, women aren't oppressed in developed countries. It's only where culture lags that oppression generally lingers.

Franz Fanonipants

27th October 2011, 03:35

Generally, women aren't oppressed in developed countries. It's only where culture lags that oppression generally lingers.

What does this even mean?

Os Cangaceiros

27th October 2011, 03:53

Because it's his child? If a man doesn't realise that sex can lead to pregnancy, and if a man doesn't realise that their condom might break during sex, then why is he even having vaginal sex with a woman?
.

Not that I don't think men should pay child support for their kids, but this argument isn't very sophisticated. It's basically just an inversion of "well, if you didn't want the kid you should've kept your legs shut."

The Stalinator

27th October 2011, 04:36

Not that I don't think men should pay child support for their kids, but this argument isn't very sophisticated. It's basically just an inversion of "well, if you didn't want the kid you should've kept your legs shut."

That oft-used argument is another very very good example of how women are oppressed. If a woman has protected sex, something goes wrong, and she ends up pregnant or gets an STD or whatever, people will tell her to "stop whoring around" and put up with the consequences of having a healthy sexuality.

I actually had a (very young and naive) friend who called herself a feminist say that women should "stop whoring around" instead of getting abortions, and that people should only have sex if they're ready for a kid.

It's fucking disgusting what some people are lead to think.

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 10:15

In the US there is virtually no feminist movement because there is virtually no need.

Can you explain why you think there is virtually no need?

Further intervention in people's lives would be unwelcomed.

Meaning, "further erosion of male privilege would be unwelcomed by MRAs and other males who enjoy their privilege and want to keep it".

The arguments here are ridiculous and the few instances of cited research is clearly cherry picked by conclusion with no regard to the research process.

I can quite clearly say the same about your post.

The problem with people like feminists today is, even when there isn't a problem, they create one, and if you disagree, they put you on the opposite side of their black and white view of the world and make you an enemy.

Do you actually have any examples of this?

Generally, women aren't oppressed in developed countries.

Have you actually even read this thread?

It's only where culture lags that oppression generally lingers.

What do you mean by "lags"? No matter what culture exists today, women are oppressed in it, regardless of how advanced you might consider that culture.

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 10:16

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:20

This is just idiotic now. Do you have any evidence that says that it is a myth?
lol the burden of proof is upon the one who believes that there is a glass ceiling.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:27

No, it's not a privilege, it's a right that follows from the basic fact that the overall brunt of the decision will be carried by the woman. You've got some twisted notion of "privilege".
The women is able to do something the man is not able too and it's nothing to do with biology, thus it is a privilege

Again, your ridiculously flawed notion of privilege is obvious. It's inaccurate to use the term in this case as well, especially since the phenomena represents a sort of a "by-pruduct" of systematic social and cultural processes which subordinate women and tie them to an inferior scial position.
But yeah, I'm all for an elimination of both aspects.
It's still a privilege no matter if it's a by-product of male privilege or not.

But now you've changed your story. We started with your assumption that women, all of them, as a group, are priviledged in some ways, gender priviledged. And this example is just ridiculous, especially in the light of your recognition of widespread sexism and its effects - both on women and men.[/QUOTE]
No i did't i said that women had some privileges men dont, and thats true.

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 14:27

lol the burden of proof is upon the one who believes that there is a glass ceiling.

It's not as if you would verify, or even acknowledge that evidence were it provided; as has been shown by your behavior in this thread.

You disgrace the name of your avatar. And I am not amused :mad:

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:29

Because it's his child? If a man doesn't realise that sex can lead to pregnancy, and if a man doesn't realise that their condom might break during sex, then why is he even having vaginal sex with a woman?
Oh i see your using the same arguments as pro-life people, but in reverse.

That's not a privilege as it is not something that women gain from society.
It kind of is.

No, it's not. Society doesn't do it to protect women from prosecution, it does it because men are "not supposed" to be rape victims or victims of domestic violence in the eyes of society.
So what?

Possibly. If they're drunk, they might do something they wouldn't do when sober.
Yeah right.

Arlekino

27th October 2011, 14:30

We are suppress by right wing media and individuals. For example at my work man get more than we are. There is huge propaganda about overpopulation which attack on woman whom giving the birth to the babies. Yesterday on Newsnight on BBC was short report how foreign mothers are giving birth and is a problem to right wing. So according to right wingers we should be miserable when we giving birth to the babies and woman cost tax payers money.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:31

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/302686_10150864780310203_569625202_20960149_205815 3693_n.jpg
Thats not a source, just a graph saying the same thing as you.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:34

RedAnarchist already made a comment but I had to say something. The fact that you actually think this is honestly a little disturbing to me.

When two people have sex, there's a understanding there that obviously the woman could get pregnant. Both people know this, and if it happened it would be both of their faults based on the fact they both knew the risks involved. It's a risk both parties are taking, therefore both have responsibility over the outcome.

It's like saying, "I'm gonna take this risk with you, that involves equal contribution from both of us but if something "bad" happens, I'm out... bye."

Now I understand that in your example the guy doesn't want the kid, but the woman does. He helped create that child, and he took the risk of having a child by having sex with that woman. So how in the hell is he not in someway responsible for that child's well-being?

Besides, what kind of low life would refuse to pay child support in that situation? Not you I hope...
If it involves equal contribution why is it solely the women who decides whatever or not they should have a child. I believe if a women does't want a child she should abort, if a man does't he should before birth sign a contract where ends all of his parental rights and responsibilities. I believe it would be fair if men had that option.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:36

lol no (http://clutchmagonline.com/2011/10/domestic-violence-decriminalized-in-topeka-kansas%E2%80%A6is-your-city-next/)
I dont know why you need to repeat this argument as it has already been shown to be false.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:38

I'm only popping in to say that I find it lamentable that there's quite a few women out there who use their sex to systematically fuck people over. I personally know of a few who took the condom used after sex with their partner, turned it inside out and shoved it up their vaginas in the hope of getting pregnant to basically trap the guy into paying child support. Or women who cry rape when nothing happened just to fuck a guy's life up for whatever reason (and unless you have a really good lawyer, she will win a lot of the time), among a few other things.

I agree that women and men should be equal, but there's a lot of women who need to stop taking advantage of situations and of people. And there's also a lot of women who always complain that they're not equal and that men are pigs but still want to be treated like princesses and don't understand that equality = equal responsibilities.

Of course, this isn't a majority of women, in fact quite a minority, but it's still very lamentable that it happens.
These women would't be able to do these things if they did't have those privileges, but still i find myself arguing against one who does't want to remove the female privilege of being able to decide whatever or not to have a child.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:39

As an ardent feminist I have to agree. Just like there are manipulative men who lie and use their privilege to fuck people over, there are manipulative woman who lie and use their position to fuck people over as well, and it's not sexist to acknowledge that.

Those kinda girls make us look like shit, let me tell you.

I consider them sexist in a strange way. They choose to enforce female stereotypes, and choose to let themselves be seen as nothing but lying sex objects -- therefore stratifying peoples' negative opinions of other women. That's not what we need.

There really isn't a way to say this without sounding sexist. But goddamnit it needs to be said, we just can't ignore it.
So what do you think should be done about it?

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:41

I doubt Einstein created this thread to seek information (hence the forum is the learning section remember?) rather he created this thread to troll/argue and causing trouble for everyone in this thread.

Another thing I find suspicious that another user name and recently banned "hurpderp" share the same views which makes me wonder if these are MRA trolls ganging up on us or Einstein's double account. hmmm....
All men's rights is about is recognising that men have certain disadvantages in this society that women dont have. Anyone who is serious about gender equality would support the mens rights movement.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 14:54

the condom thing is kind of an urban myth. at least, all of the evidence shows men are much more likely to tamper with condoms than women. and the amount of child support women get is very little and a lot of times unpaid anyway.
I'm pretty sure that if you did't pay child support you would be punished in some way.

idk what to say to "how are women still oppressed" in the face of overwhelming evidence. i wish you could spend one week as a woman and have to put up with sexual harassment, slut shaming, sexist slurs/"jokes", rape culture,
You know this has something to do with culture, sexist jokes does't prevent you from doing anything, neither does so called "slut shaming" as long as it is verbal. And i dont see how you are going to get rid of sexual harassment (which can also happen to men), i think it is unrealistic to totally get rid of this, thus women will always be oppressed no matter what we do, and so will anyone if we take crime as an example of oppression, which is basicaly what your doing. And i still havent got a satisfactory answer to what rape culture is.

the sexist as hell curriculum in school,
How is it sexist?

and hearing things like the lovely tropes expressed in this thread about women being evil conniving whores who tamper with condoms to get child support payment that i have to deal with constantly.
Exept that he or she was't talking about all women, but only women who did those things, which there certaintly are some who do.

btw even if men and women were paid the same in the same jobs (which they aren't), this doesn't get at the huge wage gap between men and women because our society values work that women go into (healthcare, education, social work etc) way less, a large part because those jobs are typically held by women.
You got any proof of that, that this is because "a large part because those jobs are typically held by women"?

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 14:56

lol the burden of proof is upon the one who believes that there is a glass ceiling.

No, you are the one who made the claim, that the glass ceiling is a myth, so the burden of proof is upon you. It is up to you to prove your own claim.

The Stalinator

27th October 2011, 14:59

So what do you think should be done about it?

You know, I think it is somewhat of a female privilege, and I think the solution would be to fix our society so it encourages women to be self-sufficient, and to realize why this is a completely disgusting and inconsiderate, sexist behaviour that could ruin the life of the man and their own.

Sure, we have this whole "female empowerment" facade in the media, which is really just objectifying shit dressed up as feminism, but our society doesn't actually like female empowerment. At all. This is somewhat beside the point, but I figured someone would try and bring this up at some time.

If a dishonest person thinks they need a man's support to get along, and they learn they can manipulate support out of a man with their body, they're probably going to do it. So the solution is to get rid of both of these social constructs. That'll take effort from both sides.

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 14:59

The women is able to do something the man is not able too and it's nothing to do with biology, thus it is a privilege.

Deciding whether or not to carry a child has nothing to do with biology?

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 15:02

You know this has something to do with culture, sexist jokes does't prevent you from doing anything, neither does so called "slut shaming" as long as it is verbal.
Yes it does when the general feeling in the mind of the average person is that women are unworthy of their freedom. My mother, an ardent feminist, asked me if I thought the problems of the economy were the result of letting women in the workplace! (Of course I said no, altho that did increase the pool of labor). This goes to show that the feeling of male superiority runs deep in society.
Basically women have to be exceptional to be normal (similar to blacks), and if they are mediocre, they are inferior.

And i still havent got a satisfactory answer to what rape culture is.

Yes you have.
I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, and even argued against your restriction/ban. But it has become clear you came here with a belief and an agenda. You also have refused to acknowledge any data that argues against your position.
You have been given an explanation of what rape culture is. First it was linked to you, and then it was spelled out for you. But in your jingoistic ignorance, you dismissed it.

How anyone could argue that men are the oppressed ones in modern society... make no mistake that is what you are arguing (I'm not convinced men and women are not equal, and also women have privelage)... and be surprised that people think they are absurd, is beyond me.

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:02

Oh i see your using the same arguments as pro-life people, but in reverse.

Yes, we've already noticed that, well done for noticing it again.

It kind of is.

What kind of argument is that meant to be, or are you just not bothered about defending your views?

So what?

What do you mean, "so what"? It should be obvious to you.

Yeah right.

Come on, are you seriously denying that people won't do things when sober, that they would do when drunk?

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:05

Why the fuck shouldn't he?
Because he did everything he could to prevent a pregnancy. Men should't be afraid of having to give a substantial amount of they income to child support if they have sex. That is't fair.

Seriously. This is such a ridiculous retort. Women do not control capital in the same way men do.
This is entirely irrelevant in this case as the vast majority of men does not control any significant amount of capital.

Wealth is power. There is a wealth gap and a wage gap. It's worse for women economically and single motherhood is an indication of poverty.
That does't mean women should have that kind of power. I really dislike the give some power for other forms of power approach.

Recognizing that there are some women that do screw men out of money* and that child support can be very bad does not mean that men are being oppressed for giving that support. In fact it highlights woman's oppression and her dependency on men.
It kind of does.

Thanks to capitalism and patriarchy women are dependent on men. The liberal feminist movement has very little to address these serious issues. We can do better. We must do better.

*The attitudes in this post and in some of your other posts are disgusting prevarications of the truth. It's one thing to aknowledge that yes, men can be hurt by patriarchy and capitalism too, but to assert that they are being treated unfairly is absurd.
I'm not saying that men overall are treated unfairly, but in these areas they are.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:07

the SCUM manifesto

j/k idk ask women bro
Anyone who believes in gender equality would not support the scum manifesto.

You have just proven yourself a believe in female superiorite and you are thus a sexist. I thought sexist were restricted or banned?

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:10

If it involves equal contribution why is it solely the women who decides whatever or not they should have a child.

Because she carries the child if they have it?
Because many pregnancies end in miscarriage or stillbirths, which are traumatic and damaging?
Because she could die in childbirth due to the number of things that can go wrong, even today?
Because she might not want to give up a promising career or her education in order to bring up a child?

I believe if a women does't want a child she should abort, if a man does't he should before birth sign a contract where ends all of his parental rights and responsibilities. I believe it would be fair if men had that option.

How about he wears a condom and accepts the risk of getting a woman pregnant? Every time a biological woman of childbearing age has vaginal sex, she is risking getting pregnant (although I think there are some times when the risk is much lower, but I'm no expert on the subject).

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:12

I dont know why you need to repeat this argument as it has already been shown to be false.

Where and how?

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:14

These women would't be able to do these things if they did't have those privileges, but still i find myself arguing against one who does't want to remove the female privilege of being able to decide whatever or not to have a child.

That's not a female privilege at all, you really need to stop thinking it is. The man who gets a woman pregnant can walk away from her and their child, but the woman has to make a choice between abortion or carrying a child that she might not want for nine months, and then look after that child for several years.

Azraella

27th October 2011, 15:14

All men's rights is about is recognising that men have certain disadvantages in this society that women dont have. Anyone who is serious about gender equality would support the mens rights movement.

No. The "men's rights movement" is not about gender equality. Most disadvantages that men face are not because they are men* but rather because they happen to be queer, an ethnic minority, poor, never simply for being a man. In fact most of the rhetoric used by the "men's rights movement" is just as misandric(not to mention it's also misogynistic) as they claim feminists as being.

But because you're spreading more nonsense around:

I'm pretty sure that if you did't pay child support you would be punished in some way.

Red herring. Address their point about child support being underpaid.

You know this has something to do with culture, sexist jokes does't prevent you from doing anything, neither does so called "slut shaming" as long as it is verbal. And i dont see how you are going to get rid of sexual harassment (which can also happen to men), i think it is unrealistic to totally get rid of this, thus women will always be oppressed no matter what we do, and so will anyone if we take crime as an example of oppression, which is basicaly what your doing. And i still havent got a satisfactory answer to what rape culture is.

Social sexism can be just as damaging as abuse. Stop justifying it as acceptable or inevitable because it isn't. Sexist jokes and slut shaming attack a woman's self-worht and attacks her sexuality, and if I might remind you that under the hetero-patriarchal religions that held dominance for roughly 2000 years, human sexuality was heavily regulated and a gender binary was enforced. These things are not inevitable or natural

Rape culture is merely the cultural conditions that makes rape a "joke" or otherwise not taken seriously. For the amount of rapes and the stigma surrounding it we have a created a culture that does not treat rape the way it should. Unacceptable.

* I will concede that circumcision is a valid issue. I might be sympathetic to more but that'd require research that isn't mired by MRA propaganda.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:14

No, you are the one who made the claim, that the glass ceiling is a myth, so the burden of proof is upon you. It is up to you to prove your own claim.
The fact that no evidence has ever been provided to support that there is a glass ceiling.

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:16

All men's rights is about is recognising that men have certain disadvantages in this society that women dont have. Anyone who is serious about gender equality would support the mens rights movement.

That's like saying that anyone who is serious about equal rights for black people should support the KKK, or the Republicans, or the Tea Party.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:16

You know, I think it is somewhat of a female privilege, and I think the solution would be to fix our society so it encourages women to be self-sufficient, and to realize why this is a completely disgusting and inconsiderate, sexist behaviour that could ruin the life of the man and their own.

Sure, we have this whole "female empowerment" facade in the media, which is really just objectifying shit dressed up as feminism, but our society doesn't actually like female empowerment. At all. This is somewhat beside the point, but I figured someone would try and bring this up at some time.

If a dishonest person thinks they need a man's support to get along, and they learn they can manipulate support out of a man with their body, they're probably going to do it. So the solution is to get rid of both of these social constructs. That'll take effort from both sides.
I agree.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:16

Deciding whether or not to carry a child has nothing to do with biology?
No deciding whatever or not the man has to help raise the child has nothing to do with biology.

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 15:23

Everybody here knows you won't even read this but:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling)

Should get you started. But since, again, we all know you won't read it, I'll just put this one quote out there that basically (very very very basically) spells it out:

In 2009, David R. Hekman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_R._Hekman) et al. found that white men receive significantly higher customer satisfaction scores than equally well-performing women and minority employees. Customers who viewed videos featuring a black male, a white female, or a white male actor playing the role of an employee helping a customer were 19% more satisfied with the white male employee's performance and also were more satisfied with the store's cleanliness and appearance. This despite that all three actors performed identically, read the same script, and were in exactly the same location with identical camera angles and lighting. In a second study, they found that white male doctors were rated as more approachable and competent than equally-well performing women or minority doctors. They interpret their findings to suggest that customer ratings tend to be inconsistent with objective indicators of performance and should not be uncritically used to determine pay and promotion opportunities

... But it's not as if you will even read it when it is posted right here for you; as has been evidenced by your behavior in this thread.

You should request a name change, as you are a disgrace to your avatar. Bans/restrictions aside, I would feel no pity if the BA changed it for you :thumbup:

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:23

I'm pretty sure that if you did't pay child support you would be punished in some way.

Yet so many get away it.

You know this has something to do with culture

Yes, a patriarchal one where men have much more privilege than women do.

sexist jokes does't prevent you from doing anything

No, they only degrade and demean women, objectifying them and making them targets for sexist behaviour and sexual assault. but of course, they don't do that much, after all, one naive misogynist who is most likely a troll told us.

neither does so called "slut shaming" as long as it is verbal.

So you find slut shaming to be acceptable in some ways?

And i dont see how you are going to get rid of sexual harassment (which can also happen to men), i think it is unrealistic to totally get rid of this

No, you can't ever truly rid a society of such things, but you can minimise them as much as possible, by teaching men to respect women, by removing male and heterosexual privilege and by abolishing societal expectations and gender roles.

thus women will always be oppressed no matter what we do

So, in your mind, removing as much of that oppression as possible is useless?

And i still havent got a satisfactory answer to what rape culture is.

Quite a few links have been provided already, and Google is quite useful.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:24

Yes, we've already noticed that, well done for noticing it again.
So you still stand by your view that men should help take care of or pay child support to a child he did't even want in the first place, but because the women decided she wanted to have a child he has to go along.

What kind of argument is that meant to be, or are you just not bothered about defending your views?
I dont really know what else to say since we have to disagree about the definition of privelege in order to disagree about this.

What do you mean, "so what"? It should be obvious to you.
The same as above.

Come on, are you seriously denying that people won't do things when sober, that they would do when drunk?[/QUOTE]
Well things people do while drunk can be reflections of what attitudes they hold but does not reveal while sober.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:29

Yes it does when the general feeling in the mind of the average person is that women are unworthy of their freedom. My mother, an ardent feminist, asked me if I thought the problems of the economy were the result of letting women in the workplace! (Of course I said no, altho that did increase the pool of labor). This goes to show that the feeling of male superiority runs deep in society.
Basically women have to be exceptional to be normal (similar to blacks), and if they are mediocre, they are inferior.
Well how do you know that "in the mind of the average person is that women are unworthy of their freedom"?

Yes you have.
I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, and even argued against your restriction/ban. But it has become clear you came here with a belief and an agenda. You also have refused to acknowledge any data that argues against your position.
You have been given an explanation of what rape culture is. First it was linked to you, and then it was spelled out for you. But in your jingoistic ignorance, you dismissed it.
Well all i got was that society accepts violence against women. Well i just dont agree.

How anyone could argue that men are the oppressed ones in modern society... make no mistake that is what you are arguing (I'm not convinced men and women are not equal, and also women have privelage)... and be surprised that people think they are absurd, is beyond me.
Well i think the culture can be stereotypical towards women, but so can it be towards men. Although society may pressure women more to do things that are uncormfortable (like wearing high heeled shoes) just because they are women, compared to men.

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 15:33

Whatever mod did that, you're my hero :wub:

So you still stand by your view that men should help take care of or pay child support to a child he did't even want in the first place, but because the women decided she wanted to have a child he has to go along.
.

Yes. Were it feasible to give men a say in the decision, I would support their right to do so. But it's not.

It's easy to think of the example where the irresponsible man doesn't want the baby, but put that aside. Take this for example: A, a girl, does not want the baby, but B, a man, does. How can the man force the woman to carry a baby for 9 months with all the emotional and physical health problems that come with it (along with all the E/P goodness that does)?

It's simply not feasible for them to come to terms in a disagreement. If you didn't want the baby, you should have been more responsible... or, you know, hired a better lawyer and made your case for why you should get custody and SHE should have to pay child support to you.

RedAnarchist

27th October 2011, 15:35

Whatever mod did that, you're my hero :wub:

You're welcome. We all know he's a troll, and he knows it too.

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 15:36

Well how do you know that "in the mind of the average person is that women are unworthy of their freedom"?

Read the data.

Well all i got was that society accepts violence against women. Well i just dont agree.

This means you didn't read any data posted to you, as that is not at all what the article was saying.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:37

Why has my username and avatar been changed?

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:42

You're welcome. We all know he's a troll, and he knows it too.
I would have hoped this was not one of those forums were you were labeled a troll just because you disagreed with a mod or the general consensus in a significant way. Well sadly it is.

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 15:46

I would have hoped this was not one of those forums were you were labeled a troll just because you disagreed with a mod or the general consensus in a significant way. Well sadly it is.

You're labelled as a troll because you refuse to acknowledge, much less deal with, the data. But of course, it's not surprising that you have an inferiority complex, given your belief that men, not women, are the oppressed members of modern society.

EDIT: Do you often get accused of trolling? I don't. Why do you think that is?

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:47

Because she carries the child if they have it?
Because many pregnancies end in miscarriage or stillbirths, which are traumatic and damaging?
Because she could die in childbirth due to the number of things that can go wrong, even today?
I do not accept the argument that because women have it so hard they need to have power men dont have.

Because she might not want to give up a promising career or her education in order to bring up a child?
Than have an abortion.

How about he wears a condom and accepts the risk of getting a woman pregnant? Every time a biological woman of childbearing age has vaginal sex, she is risking getting pregnant (although I think there are some times when the risk is much lower, but I'm no expert on the subject).
Well i think you should but that should't mean you have to pay child support.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:48

Where and how?
The fact that this was solely done in order to get public support for not cutting the budget and the fact that the only practical consequense was that it would no longer be the city government who was responsible for enforcing that law?

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:49

That's not a female privilege at all, you really need to stop thinking it is. The man who gets a woman pregnant can walk away from her and their child, but the woman has to make a choice between abortion or carrying a child that she might not want for nine months, and then look after that child for several years.
Well she has some options if she does't want a child, it's not fair that when a man gets a women pregnant he has no options if he does't want a child.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:50

That's like saying that anyone who is serious about equal rights for black people should support the KKK, or the Republicans, or the Tea Party.
The mens rights movement is not anti-feminist.

Azraella

27th October 2011, 15:53

The mens rights movement is not anti-feminist.

Yes it is.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:55

Yet so many get away it.
Source?

Yes, a patriarchal one where men have much more privilege than women do.
Maybe.

No, they only degrade and demean women, objectifying them and making them targets for sexist behaviour and sexual assault. but of course, they don't do that much, after all, one naive misogynist who is most likely a troll told us.
I dont hate women, i love women :)

So you find slut shaming to be acceptable in some ways?
No.

No, you can't ever truly rid a society of such things, but you can minimise them as much as possible, by teaching men to respect women, by removing male and heterosexual privilege and by abolishing societal expectations and gender roles.

Yeah.

So, in your mind, removing as much of that oppression as possible is useless?
No.

Quite a few links have been provided already, and Google is quite useful.
:sleep:

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:57

Whatever mod did that, you're my hero :wub:

Yes. Were it feasible to give men a say in the decision, I would support their right to do so. But it's not.

It's easy to think of the example where the irresponsible man doesn't want the baby, but put that aside. Take this for example: A, a girl, does not want the baby, but B, a man, does. How can the man force the woman to carry a baby for 9 months with all the emotional and physical health problems that come with it (along with all the E/P goodness that does)?

It's simply not feasible for them to come to terms in a disagreement. If you didn't want the baby, you should have been more responsible... or, you know, hired a better lawyer and made your case for why you should get custody and SHE should have to pay child support to you.
I dont think men should be able to say that he wants a child even if the women dont, but we can give them the option of being able to say that they dont want a child, there is nothing unpractical about that.

Whatabouttehmenz?

27th October 2011, 15:57

You're welcome. We all know he's a troll, and he knows it too.
If i was a troll, why would i have made other threads besides this one?

Revolution starts with U

27th October 2011, 16:01

I dont think men should be able to say that he wants a child even if the women dont, but we can give them the option of being able to say that they dont want a child, there is nothing unpractical about that.

And this is exactly why the man should have to pay child support. I'm sorry, but you should have been more responsible. Perhaps, if you want not the risk of a baby, only have sex with women on birth control (and make sure beforehand), refrain from unprotected sex, refrain from casual sex (sex with someone you don't plan on sharing a life with), etc.

It takes two to tango, and it isn't cheap raising children. Take some responsiblity.

Luc

29th October 2011, 21:55

I dont think men should be able to say that he wants a child even if the women dont, but we can give them the option of being able to say that they dont want a child, there is nothing unpractical about that.

What?

First of all, Is it impossible for males to say "I don't want a child" and now we have to "give" them the phonetic ability to do so???

That sentence makes no sense. at all.

Second, (and I think you know this) but child support isn't only forced on males; females can be the obliger too.

Third, Now heres where child support comes from and what it really is:

States Parties shall respect the responsibilities, rights and duties of parents or, where applicable, the members of the extended family or community as provided for by local custom, legal guardians or other persons legally responsible for the child, to provide, in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child, appropriate direction and guidance in the exercise by the child of the rights recognized in the present Convention

1. States Parties recognize that every child has the inherent right to life.
2. States Parties shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UN_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child
http://www.canadiancrc.com/UN_CRC/UN_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child.aspx

You get it?

Child Support is not some privilege for woman it is a right of the child. Child support is not for some "evil womans who wants to bleed me dry for that damn child"; it is for the child.

So, no it is not a female privilege. If you can consider it a "privilege" it would be a "child privilege"

k :)