Was Gaddafi Sodomized?

[Seth]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20124758-503543/globalpost-qaddafi-apparently-sodomized-after-capture/


GlobalPost: Qaddafi apparently sodomized after capture


Amid mounting questions about just how and when Muammar Qaddafi died, a GlobalPost analysis of video footage suggests a Libyan fighter sodomized the former dictator after he was captured near Sirte. As GlobalPost reports (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy):
A frame by frame analysis of this exclusive GlobalPost video clearly shows the rebel trying to insert some kind of stick or knife into Gaddafi's rear end.
GlobalPost correspondent Tracey Shelton said there is some question as to whether the instrument was a knife from the end of a gun, which Libyans call a Bicketti, or a utilitiy tool known as a Becker Knife and Tool, which is popularly known as a BKT.
This latest video discovery comes as international and human rights groups call for a formal investigation into how the former Libyan leader was killed. In video clips that have emerged of his capture, Gaddafi can be seen injured but alive. Later he is seen with what appears to be gunshot wounds to his head and chest. According to the Geneva Conventions, however, abuse of prisoners under any circumstance is not permissable.
GlobalPost offers four screenshots (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy) taken from fairly extensive video of Qaddafi's capture last week. (See video below.)
http://c.gigcount.com/wildfire/IMP/CXNID=2000002.0NXC/bT*xJmx*PTEzMTk*NzQ4ODQ5OTEmcHQ9MTMxOTQ3NDg4ODE2My ZwPTEwMjExMjImZD*mZz*yJm89NzczMjUyZTQ4MmMxNDcwNGJh/YmI4ZmJjMTU1MGYwZTEmb2Y9MA==.gif The former leader had been in hiding since rebel fighters toppled the capital city of Tripoli. His death, which came shortly after he was driven away in a truck by opposition forces, has been the subject of much debate. A coroner's report found that he was killed by a bullet to the head, which officials in Libya's transitional government initially claimed was the result of crossfire between revolutionaries and loyalists as Qaddafi was being driven to a hospital.
But bowing to growing international pressure, newly installed interim leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil announced Monday that the Transitional National Council had formed a committee to investigate Qaddafi's death (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20124569/libyan-leader-orders-probe-into-qaddafis-death/) (though he also claimed that Qaddafi might have been killed by his own supporters to prevent him from implicating them in his past crimes.)
On top of Qaddafi's death, revolutionary forces are also being scrutinized for their treatment of loyalists in general. New York-based Human Rights Watch Monday warned of a "trend of killings, looting and other abuses" after 53 people, apparently Qaddafi loyalists, were found dead in a Sirte hotel (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-20124710/53-bodies-found-in-sirte-loyalists-executed/?tag=stack). The condition of the bodies suggests they may have been executed.
The group has called for an investigation.
It's not surprising they tortured him before killing him like an animal...but damn.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

This just furthers my belief that the rebels are nothing but scum who deserve to be executed for betrayal of the Libyan people.

[RadioRaheem84]

My god these rebels are horrible. I hope no one tries to claim the Italian Partisans were this cruel when dealing with Mussolini as if there is some sort of comparison.

There isn't. These radicals are in a reactionary boat that includes contra rebels that would chop off limbs, Operation Condor mercenaries that would electrocute genitals and tribal warlords in Afghanistan.

[Die Rote Fahne]

While I agree what the rebels did is disgusting, and should be condemned, we can't lose our grip on reality. Nothing will come of this; no charges, no persecution, no punishment. Neither side represented a truly working class movement, and both have committed their share of "atrocities".

This deserves little discussion, but certainly deserves condemnation. There are worse things happening in the world than Qaddafi being sodomized, beaten, assassinated, etc.

[Nox]

Give it a decade or so, people will be begging to have Gaddafi back.

[khad]

All racists are similarly obsessed with sticking things in men's anuses after lynching them.

Observe the beginning of this Michael Richards clip.

6pp6WC1Ocz4

[R_P_A_S]

i saw the video.. that was fucking sick..

[Morgenstern]

As cruel as it is, this pales in comparison to the horrendousness of the whole sharia law news. This is disturbing. The best we can hope for is the secularists in Libya get their shit together. While neither side represented the Libyan worker, throwing the country under religious law is a step backwards.

[RedSonRising]

As cruel as it is, this pales in comparison to the horrendousness of the whole sharia law news. This is disturbing. The best we can hope for is the secularists in Libya get their shit together. While neither side represented the Libyan worker, throwing the country under religious law is a step backwards.


We can't know for sure what kind of "Sharia Law" new Libyan leaders are going to articulate. I don't trust them to make any kind of progressive and humane society, but at the same time we can't assume that a cultural interpretation of religious law in itself is always going to yield horrific outcomes akin to sodomized rape.

[Le Socialiste]

Give it a decade or so, people will be begging to have Gaddafi back.

Doesn't necessarily mean such a 'return' would be right, or help the working-class in any way.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

This just furthers my belief that the rebels are nothing but scum who deserve to be executed for betrayal of the Libyan people.

^This, seriously, wtf. This is the epitome of "what the fuck."

[Hivemind]

All racists are similarly obsessed with sticking things in men's anuses after lynching them.

Observe the beginning of this Michael Richards clip.

6pp6WC1Ocz4

Holy fuck what a douchebag! Truly uncalled for indeed.

[Veovis]

I was never really a fan of Gaddaffi, but the way they treated him there at the end really turned my stomach.

[Zav]

This just furthers my belief that the rebels are nothing but scum who deserve to be executed for betrayal of the Libyan people.
:trotski: Kronstadt?

This attitude gives Glenn Beck a boner.

[RadioRaheem84]

Doesn't necessarily mean such a 'return' would be right, or help the working-class in any way.

No but it will like how there is nostalgia for the old Bloc and DDR.

[Seth]

No but it will like how there is nostalgia for the old Bloc and DDR.

Which is not quite to the point of those peoples "begging" for it back, nor do I think it'll ever get there. First, they'll turn to nationalism.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Does anyone else thinks it's fucked up that Gaddafi died a more horrific death than Hitler or Mussolini combined?

[Le Socialiste]

Does anyone else thinks it's fucked up that Gaddafi died a more horrific death than Hitler or Mussolini combined?

As callous as it sounds, no. A dictator is a leader who relies on terror and brutality to subdue the people he rules over. I have no love for people such as that.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Poor Gaddafi. Such an icon of human rights, such a paragon of Libyan dignity. To be savagely murdered by those brutish rebels in such a way...honestly, it's almost like Jesus was crucified all over again. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but Gaddafi really was probably the closest we've ever come to a perfect, immaculate anti-imperialist Jesus.

god bless your beautiful soul, sweet prince.

[The Stalinator]

Poor Gaddafi. Such an icon of human rights, such a paragon of Libyan dignity. To be savagely murdered by those brutish rebels in such a way...honestly, it's almost like Jesus was crucified all over again. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but Gaddafi really was probably the closest we've ever come to a perfect, immaculate anti-imperialist Jesus.

god bless your beautiful soul, sweet prince.

Well sure he's an enemy of the working class, a fake socialist, a dictator and a bourgeois, anti-equality piece of shit, but since he's not NATO, we should all ride his dick and act like he was a competent and fair leader.

Long Live Comrade Gaddafi! May your soul and your anus rest in peace.

(In all seriousness: the rebels and the NTC I don't like one bit. But all of this Gaddafi sympathizing is just fucking blind. I mean really.)

[Rocky Rococo]

Poor Gaddafi. Such an icon of human rights, such a paragon of Libyan dignity. To be savagely murdered by those brutish rebels in such a way...honestly, it's almost like Jesus was crucified all over again. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but Gaddafi really was probably the closest we've ever come to a perfect, immaculate anti-imperialist Jesus.

god bless your beautiful soul, sweet prince.

Anyone who is OK with any human being being anally raped with a knife is not somebody I could ever consider a comrade in any meaning of the word.

[Yazman]

Anyone who is OK with any human being being anally raped with a knife is not somebody I could ever consider a comrade in any meaning of the word.

Yeah. I don't care who it is. I wouldn't condone that happening to even Hitler.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What happened to him and any other members of the Gaddafi inner circle who were killed by angry mobs of rebel militiamen is despicable. But those who lionize Gaddafi should realize his own complicity in crimes like this.


The impact of Sierra Leone’s conflict on females directly associated with the war (the majority of whom are rural women and girls) has been largely invisible to policy-makers because woman and girls (particularly in the rural areas) traditionally lack voice and power. For example, despite increasing attention directed at children associated with war -- whether as combatants or non-combatants -- there has been little provision for young females and their specific needs. But young women and girls were certainly not invisible to the RUF, who either recruited them as willing volunteers or abducted them. A few joined the movement out of loyalty to their male relatives and partners.Although there is no authoritative figure on the total number of females associated with the RUF, it is believed that there may be as many as 10,000. Of this figure, it is estimated that 9,500 of these females may have been abducted mostly from the rural areas. Some others appear to have been ‘donated’ by relatives. One woman, for example, was given to the RUF by her uncle. This differentiation in how female (and male) youths came to adhere to the RUF, however, does not matter to RUF victims and opponents, nor to Sierra Leone society as a whole, whose general attitude is condemnation of these girls -- some of whom are as young as 10 years old.
In the RUF’s camps, there were two categories of members: fighters and "civilians". The fighters were the males and females trained in combat and who actually engaged in fighting. The "civilians" were the males and females who provided the labour force for the movement. The majority of the "civilians" were captured female youths. In the RUF camps, these captured females are known as "wives." Their primary role was to provide domestic and sexual services. The lives of "wives" in the camps were hellish. For example, the incidence of rape and gang sex was reported to be so prevalent in RUF camps that, as a survival strategy, many "civilian" females co-operated with male fighters, who, in turn, protected them. In so doing, they go from passive victims to active agents in determining their welfare.
Opportunities to escape were rare. Those caught while attempting to escape were killed as a deterrent to others. At this juncture, it should be pointed out that despite the general hellish conditions of RUF camps there were variations in the degree of hardship and violence. There is some evidence that some of the violence against females in RUF camps may be linked to external pressure on the RUF "enclaves". For example, RUF rape victims in Makeni interviewed by Professor Paul Richards, Wageningen University, revealed that rape was used as a punishment for military failure.
Apart from those associated with males who could protect them, the remaining females were communal property and all men had sexual rights over them. According to some of the girls, gang sex was a daily occurrence in the camps. As a result, sexually transmitted diseases (STD), especially gonorrhoea, were rampant, as were unplanned pregnancies and child bearing. Access to medical facilities was limited. In some occupied areas, the RUF would set up their own clinics. However, these were mostly to provide services such as amputations to sick or wounded fighters. With limited medical facilities to provide pre- and post-natal care, maternal and infant mortality were believed to be very high. In one RUF camp near Kenema, two girls age 10 and 12 were found. Between them they had had three children, all deceased. Camps conditions were also horrible for children who were either abducted or found unaccompanied. They were used as food scavengers and farming labour, in addition to being helpers to the female combatants.
http://www.c-r.org/resources/occasional-papers/rural-women-sierra-leone.php


Foday Saybana Sankoh (October 17, 1937-July 29, 2003) was the leader and founder of the Sierra Leone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Leone) rebel group Revolutionary United Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_United_Front) (RUF) in the 11-year-long Sierra Leone Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Leone_Civil_War), starting in 1991 and ending in 2002. An estimated 50,000 people were killed during the war, and over 500,000 people were displaced in neighboring countries.

...

On his release he worked as an itinerant photographer in the south and east of Sierra Leone, eventually coming in contact with young radicals and finding his way to Libya for insurgency training in 1988. This was organized by Muammar Gaddafi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi) who also helped to bring Charles Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Taylor_%28Liberia%29) to power. According to Douglas Farah, "The amputation of the arms and legs of men, women, and children as part of a scorched-earth campaign was designed to take over the region’s rich diamond fields and was backed by Gaddafi, who routinely reviewed their progress and supplied weapons".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foday_Sankoh#cite_note-Harvard_for_Tyrants-0)
On their return to Sierra Leone, Sankoh and confederates Rashid Mansaray and Abu Kanu solicited support for an armed uprising to oust the APC government. They then traveled to Liberia, where they reportedly continued recruiting and served with Charles G. Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_G._Taylor)'s National Patriotic Front of Liberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Patriotic_Front_of_Liberia) (NPFL).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foday_Sankoh

Gaddafi's little proxy militias around Africa used rape as a strategy to repress and enslave women. Not only was he an Imperialist in this respect, but his little militias in places like Sierra Leone and Liberia made Nicaraguan contras look humane by comparison. Sankoh was not alone-Charles Taylor in Liberia, also trained by Gaddafi as the quote from wikipedia mentions, also led a militia which resorted to similar tactics. There should be no surprise there. The people who did this to Gaddafi may never stand justice and that is a tragedy, but Gaddafi will also now never be able to held to account for his involvement or complicity in human rights abuses.

[Le Socialiste]

Well sure he's an enemy of the working class, a fake socialist, a dictator and a bourgeois, anti-equality piece of shit, but since he's not NATO, we should all ride his dick and act like he was a competent and fair leader.

Long Live Comrade Gaddafi! May your soul and your anus rest in peace.

(In all seriousness: the rebels and the NTC I don't like one bit. But all of this Gaddafi sympathizing is just fucking blind. I mean really.)

sarcasm [ˈsɑːkæzəm]
n
1. mocking, contemptuous, or ironic language intended to convey scorn or insult.
2. the use or tone of such language.
[from Late Latin sarcasmus, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to rend the flesh, from sarx flesh]
hu·mor (hyhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifr)
n.
1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness.
2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement.
3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd.
[Middle English, fluid, from Old French umor, from Latin http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/umacr.gifmor, hhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/umacr.gifmor.]

[Yazman]

^^^^Sarcasm never works well on the internet, it relies too much on tone of voice and other queues.

[Smyg]

Yeah. I don't care who it is. I wouldn't condone that happening to even Hitler.

I would. In my mind, Hitler forfeited his human rights.

[Yazman]

I would. In my mind, Hitler forfeited his human rights.

I don't think humans ever forfeit their rights. Committing atrocities deserves punishment but I don't believe that the perception of some people as "subhuman" is ever a useful view, and it is in fact what leads to atrocities in the first place.

[Tim Cornelis]

This just furthers my belief that the rebels are nothing but scum who deserve to be executed for betrayal of the Libyan people.

Muammar Gadaffi =/= the Libyan People

No one man can represent a people, that is elementary common sense.

[Smyg]

I don't think humans ever forfeit their rights. Committing atrocities deserves punishment but I don't believe that the perception of some people as "subhuman" is ever a useful view, and it is in fact what leads to atrocities in the first place.

It's probably both moral and politic idiocy, but I can't help feel that once you've crossed a certain limit, you have it all coming.

[Yazman]

It's probably both moral and politic idiocy, but I can't help feel that once you've crossed a certain limit, you have it all coming.

Criminals and traitors should be held to account for their crimes and they do have it coming, but that doesn't mean we should allow them to be brutalised and treated like subhumans. You take away their dignity then you've lost your own. I don't condone torture (which this act seems to amount to).

Committing a crime, no matter the magnitude, does not mean you forfeit your right to be treated in a humane way, imo. You want to try somebody for crimes against humanity and then sentence them to death? I can deal with that even though I'm not big on the death penalty but I can accept it. Brutalising a person, torturing them, and then killing them on the spot? I don't support that no matter who it was done to. Even Saddam Hussein got to keep his dignity and got his trial (and got executed as a result).

[Savage]

Anyone who is OK with any human being being anally raped with a knife is not somebody I could ever consider a comrade in any meaning of the word.

I don't think the point was in condoning the rape but rather to allude to the fact that Gaddafi had done plenty of terrible things himself.

[Tablo]

You guys are way too obsessed with Gaddafi.

[tir1944]

I find it quite appropriate that the "era" of Shariah in Libya started with anal-rape of the overthrown leader,an old man at that....

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Criminals and traitors should be held to account for their crimes and they do have it coming, but that doesn't mean we should allow them to be brutalised and treated like subhumans. You take away their dignity then you've lost your own. I don't condone torture (which this act seems to amount to).

Committing a crime, no matter the magnitude, does not mean you forfeit your right to be treated in a humane way, imo. You want to try somebody for crimes against humanity and then sentence them to death? I can deal with that even though I'm not big on the death penalty but I can accept it. Brutalising a person, torturing them, and then killing them on the spot? I don't support that no matter who it was done to. Even Saddam Hussein got to keep his dignity and got his trial (and got executed as a result).

I broadly agree with you but didn't anyone get like, some form of satisfication feeling that mabye in those moments gadhaffi realized what it was like for all the people he had murderered or tourted? Though its probably too optmisitic to say that, he probably wasn't thinking of that at all.

[RedAnarchist]

It's probably both moral and politic idiocy, but I can't help feel that once you've crossed a certain limit, you have it all coming.

So where does this limit lie, and does it apply to everyone? Is it an arbitrary line or one that is accepted by everyone? If you condemn those who, for example, bombed British cities and killed civilians in the Second World War, you have to condemn those who bombed German cities and killed civilians in that war as well. Coventry was a city of the winning Allies, and Dresden a city of the losing Axis.

Both sides in Libya have committed atrocities, but noone either in Libya or anywhere else deserves to be lynched then anally raped. Just because Gaddafi was the loser and the NTC the winners does not justify their human rights abuses.

[RedAnarchist]

I broadly agree with you but didn't anyone get like, some form of satisfication feeling that mabye in those moments gadhaffi realized what it was like for all the people he had murderered or tourted? Though its probably too optmisitic to say that, he probably wasn't thinking of that at all.

I didn't, and many others didn't. Most likely, he was too terrified to think of much, just like the people he had killed.

[thefinalmarch]

I find it quite appropriate that the "era" of Shariah in Libya started with anal-rape of the overthrown leader,an old man at that....
Because, as you know, sharia law clearly and plainly states that all old men must be anally raped :rolleyes:

I fail to see how it's "appropriate" that these two events should coincide.

[tir1944]

Because, as you know, sharia law clearly and plainly states that all old men must be anally rapedSharia is the rape of humanity.
It's raping of freedom,of human spirit.Renouncing Islam means death,according to Sharia.From what i know at least.
Also,in case you don't know,Sharia proscribes hanging for homosexual intercourse...but the fact that these Islamists raped an old man doesn't surprise me.

[Smyg]

So where does this limit lie, and does it apply to everyone? Is it an arbitrary line or one that is accepted by everyone? If you condemn those who, for example, bombed British cities and killed civilians in the Second World War, you have to condemn those who bombed German cities and killed civilians in that war as well. Coventry was a city of the winning Allies, and Dresden a city of the losing Axis.

Both sides in Libya have committed atrocities, but noone either in Libya or anywhere else deserves to be lynched then anally raped. Just because Gaddafi was the loser and the NTC the winners does not justify their human rights abuses.

I by no means defend what happened to Gaddafi. The only atrocities I'm not against are those committed against, say, the leadership of the NSDAP.

[tir1944]

The only atrocities I'm not against are those committed against, say, the leadership of the NSDAP.
What atrocities?
They were put to trial and hanged/imprisoned for their crimes.
The German delegation that signed the surrender traty was offered
fucking caviar and champagne!

[thefinalmarch]

Sharia is the rape of humanity.
yes but we're not talking about metaphorical rape, are we?

[danyboy27]

The guy didnt deserved such an horrific death, same goes for the gadafi soldier, the ''rebels'' and the great number of civilians who also suffered a great deal beccause of this conflict.

the raping, killing and torturing of human being are intimately linked to war, nothing really surprising there tho.

[Smyg]

To put it more simply: I'd have no problem with the brutal torture and execution of the NSDAP leadership.

[tir1944]

I'd have no problem with the brutal torture and execution of the NSDAP leadership.
Yes and you're wrong.
There's a reason why all these people were put to TRIAL,for their crimes to be exposed to the world in their own words!
Extrajudicial killing should be the last resort.
Think about it.We'd know much less about the WW2 and 3rd Reich had all these Nazis been executed immiediately without any trial,without giving any confessions and details.

[RedAnarchist]

To put it more simply: I'd have no problem with the brutal torture and execution of the NSDAP leadership.

What makes them any different from any other group of brutal tyrants and mass murderers? The Nazis were certainly some of the worst people in terms of their mindsets and actions, but others throughout history have been as bad if not worse.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I find it quite appropriate that the "era" of Shariah in Libya started with anal-rape of the overthrown leader,an old man at that....

Gadaffi was anally raped in in 1969?

Comrade, again, Libya has theoretically been under "shari'a" law for forty or so years.

[tir1944]

Comrade, again, Libya has theoretically been under "shari'a" law for forty or so years.
Theoretically.
But why would the rebels announce that the "basic law in Libya would now be the Sharia",had this indeed been the case?
Doesn't make sense,does it?

[PhoenixAsh]

I am not entirely sure how the events surrounding Gaddaffi's death can be a surprise to anybody.

It was predetermined that Gaddaffi should and would die. I am not a fan of the guy. But he was a pain in the ass of the other bourgeoisie leaders. THey simply could not afford to arrest hinm, put him on trial and get involved in a long drawn out prosecution which would give him a propaganda platform.

So it was always the case that as soon as NATO got involved...Gaddaffi would be eliminated as soon as was possible. And the rebels were the perfect tool for the job. Nobody in the western world will be able to implicate NATO...and they will write it down to vengeance.

Yes...it is somewhat awful how they treated him. And brutal, vicious and generally not very nice. But this is no exception in how people generally deal with dictators after a civil war or war.

[thefinalmarch]

he was a pain in the ass
no pun intended

[00000000000]

Echoing some of the other comments on here; the way his life was ended, including the brutal and de-humanising treatment prior to execution, was abhorrent irrespective of who the victim was.
However, it's hard to feel deep anger and indignation given who Gaddafi was and what he did.

[PhoenixAsh]

no pun intended

oi...yeah...right. :blushing: I obviously didn't think that line through :blink:

[PhoenixAsh]

Echoing some of the other comments on here; the way his life was ended, including the brutal and de-humanising treatment prior to execution, was abhorrent irrespective of who the victim was.
However, it's hard to feel deep anger and indignation given who Gaddafi was and what he did.

Well...I have no idea what he did exactly. It would have been a good thing IMO if he were to somehow be made to explain and account for what he did. And NOT only because we need to hear what has happened under hist government....but also how this ties in into the other bourgeoisie states and open that white wash attempt.

But that unfortunately would probably have meant a repeat of Milosevic (though...admitted Ghaddaffi is considerable less elonquent than Milosovic) trial farce. Yet another perfect example of imperialist victory justice...which did not go so well for them (don't get me wrong...not defending the man....simply indicating that he should not have been the only indicted person there)

So this was never a possibility for the NATO powers.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Theoretically.
But why would the rebels announce that the "basic law in Libya would now be the Sharia",had this indeed been the case?
Doesn't make sense,does it?

it makes perfect sense. religion is a set of ideas used for various means (as ideas are). the new government claiming to put into effect shari'a law when shari'a law has been practiced in Libya for ~50 years is political platitude, not a statement of policy.

[black magick hustla]

that is pretty awful but honestly men are animals in war and i don't think whatever the rebels did is reflective of their politics. populist lynching revengism has always been a big thing in big, political movements that involve violence, including the mass rape of german women by the red army. none of this shit is justified, but as bcbm said, "shit stinks for all". the partsians hung mussolini and his wife from meathooks after all. i think it is too much to expect people to "behave" in questions of matter and death and when its time for "sangre por sangre". i think the rebels are generally scum but i think people here are trying to score cheap, opportunist political points and making seem qadaffi as some sort of jesus.

[PhoenixAsh]

The NTC says nobody shot Gaddaffi but that he died from his wounds...according to a UN representative

source here (dutch) http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/2651638/libische-vn-gezant-spreekt-kaddafi-executie.html

[RadioRaheem84]

I think some comrades are failing to acknowledge that this has less to do with an admiration for Gaddafi and more about the brutal nature of the rebels and the subsequent cover up of the matter by the new NTC leaders.

Why are you comrades still eager to call out Gaddafi? What is your main goal? It's getting rather annoying.

We get it. Bad man. Your anti-authoritarian credentials are safe and secured. But what about the nature of the new rulers and their reactionary strongmen, which is the real issue here?

[PhoenixAsh]

The nature of the NTC was never in any doubt. This is not some difinitative proof just another example fo what they are.

[RadioRaheem84]

The nature of the NTC was never in any doubt. This is not some difinitative proof just another example fo what they are.

Even I didn't think they were that brutal. But apparently they keep proving me wrong.

[Threetune]

I think some comrades are failing to acknowledge that this has less to do with an admiration for Gaddafi and more about the brutal nature of the rebels and the subsequent cover up of the matter by the new NTC leaders.

Why are you comrades still eager to call out Gaddafi? What is your main goal? It's getting rather annoying.

We get it. Bad man. Your anti-authoritarian credentials are safe and secured. But what about the nature of the new rulers and their reactionary strongmen, which is the real issue here?

Why do you call them “comrades”? They are apologists and propagandists for imperialist bombing and murder.


Statements by the Libya NTC Whitewash Party

“While I agree what the rebels did is disgusting, and should be condemned, we can't lose our grip on reality. Nothing will come of this; no charges, no persecution, no punishment. Neither side represented a truly working class movement, and both have committed their share of "atrocities".

This deserves little discussion, but certainly deserves condemnation. There are worse things happening in the world than Qaddafi being sodomized, beaten, assassinated, etc.”
“Poor Gaddafi. Such an icon of human rights, such a paragon of Libyan dignity. To be savagely murdered by those brutish rebels in such a way...honestly, it's almost like Jesus was crucified all over again. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but Gaddafi really was probably the closest we've ever come to a perfect, immaculate anti-imperialist Jesus. god bless your beautiful soul, sweet prince.”

Signed:

Die Rote Fahne #FF0000, Bardo, Danielle Ni Dhighe, la peur rouge, La Sombra, Le Socialiste, Mather, Oscar the Grouch, rosario, Smyg, socialistjustin, Stammer and Tickle, Tenka, thefinalmarchExplosive Situation#FF0000, Apoi_Viitor, AsiniDiabolica, black magick hustla, danyboy25,Dzerzhinsky's Ghost, Garret, Jose Gracchus, Savage, Tablo, The Stalinator

[ZeroNowhere]

I would. In my mind, Hitler forfeited his human rights.
Wait a minute. This is a fair bit closer to 'rape apologism' than what multiple members have been banned for in the past. Is it going to go unpunished in this case?

[Seth]

Signed:

Die Rote Fahne #FF0000, Bardo, Danielle Ni Dhighe, la peur rouge, La Sombra, Le Socialiste, Mather, Oscar the Grouch, rosario, Smyg, socialistjustin, Stammer and Tickle, Tenka, thefinalmarchExplosive Situation#FF0000, Apoi_Viitor, AsiniDiabolica, black magick hustla, danyboy25,Dzerzhinsky's Ghost, Garret, Jose Gracchus, Savage, Tablo, The Stalinator When's the purge coming, boss? Will there be sodomy? :rolleyes:

[danyboy27]

When's the purge coming, boss? Will there be sodomy? :rolleyes:

rape is no laughing matter.

[Art Vandelay]

rape is no laughing matter.

No but most of the stalinists on this board are...

[danyboy27]

No but most of the stalinists on this board are...

i dont think what you just said is verry useful to the current conversation.

[Threetune]

When's the purge coming, boss? Will there be sodomy? :rolleyes:

It just happened in Libya!

[Seth]

rape is no laughing matter.

There was more than a bit of irony in that post, if you didn't catch it. I thought the :rolleyes: would help.

[brigadista]

has everyone seen the benghazi lynching videos? proof of the begining of barbarism by the "rebels" in Libya and leading to the horrible spectacle that was gaddaiff's death.

However i agree with hindsight NATO wanted gaddafi shut right up and not on trial - bet tony blair is thinking about it right now.....

[RadioRaheem84]

Where is the other half of Libya that resented the rebels? Where is their voice about all this?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Why do you call them “comrades”? They are apologists and propagandists for imperialist bombing and murder.

Actually, I've consistently stated that Libya would've been better off had Qaddafi remained in power. On the other hand, Explosive Situation's comment was pretty damn hilarious...

I mean, Qaddafi was a brutal tyrant (and I'm not really appalled by his death), but the rebels are certainly worse. As I said, Qaddafi's death isn't really that appalling, since this was a revolution, and apparently they aren't like dinner parties.

[Le Socialiste]

The reality is neither side had the interests of the working-class guiding their actions. Gaddafi fought to preserve his grip on power while the rebels/transitional government sought to take his place. It was little more than the inter-wrangling between two opposing sides over who would get to claim authority over the state and its institutions. With the U.S./NATO getting involved, any hope for a sizable workers' movement was dashed.

Did Gaddafi deserve to go the way he did? Of course not, no one deserves such cruelty - even if in previous years he/she oversaw its use over broad segments of the population. Did he deserve death? This will depend on who you ask. I personally struggle with it, with much of me saying he had this coming for forty-plus years. He established a system of oppression and terror, for the benefit of himself, his family, and the ruling elite(s) loyal to him. To think that the new government will be any different is foolish, to say the least. Either way, the people lose - and that's exactly what the U.S. and NATO hoped for.

[RadioRaheem84]

Actually, I've consistently stated that Libya would've been better off had Qaddafi remained in power. On the other hand, Explosive Situation's comment was pretty damn hilarious...

I mean, Qaddafi was a brutal tyrant (and I'm not really appalled by his death), but the rebels are certainly worse. As I said, Qaddafi's death isn't really that appalling, since this was a revolution, and apparently they aren't like dinner parties.

They also aren't always like Pier Passolini's Salo, for pete's sake.

The nature of the rebels is appalling. What is more appalling is that they are led by supposedly Western educated men of character according to the New Yorker piece I read.

This is no different than a bunch of sadistic Westerners using a vile reactionary group to be their muscle in Latin America.

The only differene is that the Westerners are more "civil" in their brutality.......

[brigadista]

it is also sending a message to egyptian socialists...

[brigadista]

north africa seems to be turningi into central america in the 80s..

[Salyut]

The only differene is that the Westerners are more "civil" in their brutality.......

No. Not really. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_of_Jesse_Washington)

[danyboy27]

north africa seems to be turningi into central america in the 80s..

i dont know what you are talking about. this region is under control of western power for quite some time now.

[RadioRaheem84]

No. Not really. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_of_Jesse_Washington)

I meant that Western leaders claim to fighting in the name of democracy against barbarism and dictatorship, but they employ the most vile reactionary forces to do their bidding.

They have the audacity to say they're fighting for a decent civilized world.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why do you call them “comrades”? They are apologists and propagandists for imperialist bombing and murder.


Statements by the Libya NTC Whitewash Party

“While I agree what the rebels did is disgusting, and should be condemned, we can't lose our grip on reality. Nothing will come of this; no charges, no persecution, no punishment. Neither side represented a truly working class movement, and both have committed their share of "atrocities".

This deserves little discussion, but certainly deserves condemnation. There are worse things happening in the world than Qaddafi being sodomized, beaten, assassinated, etc.”
“Poor Gaddafi. Such an icon of human rights, such a paragon of Libyan dignity. To be savagely murdered by those brutish rebels in such a way...honestly, it's almost like Jesus was crucified all over again. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but Gaddafi really was probably the closest we've ever come to a perfect, immaculate anti-imperialist Jesus. god bless your beautiful soul, sweet prince.”

Signed:

Die Rote Fahne #FF0000, Bardo, Danielle Ni Dhighe, la peur rouge, La Sombra, Le Socialiste, Mather, Oscar the Grouch, rosario, Smyg, socialistjustin, Stammer and Tickle, Tenka, thefinalmarchExplosive Situation#FF0000, Apoi_Viitor, AsiniDiabolica, black magick hustla, danyboy25,Dzerzhinsky's Ghost, Garret, Jose Gracchus, Savage, Tablo, The Stalinator

Go fuck yourself you vile little fucking troll.

Everyone in this thread has expressed their disdain at the treatment of the 69 year old Qaddafi in the run up to his death. Furthermore, we've all expressed that we think the NTC, in the form of NATO stooges, are as bad and probably worse than Qaddafi was (if you want to reduce everything down to simply A vs B value statements).

So stop with your pathetic, slanderous bullshit.

Btw, had much luck with converting the Occupy London participants to glorious Leninism yet?

[Salyut]

I meant that Western leaders claim to fighting in the name of democracy against barbarism and dictatorship, but they employ the most vile reactionary forces to do their bidding.

They have the audacity to say they're fighting for a decent civilized world.

Its just Realpolitik. You can do all kinds of things when you believe the ends justify the means.

banality of evil little eichmanns etc etc blah blah I can't really write out a deep post at the moment for some reason

[Threetune]

Go fuck yourself you vile little fucking troll.

Everyone in this thread has expressed their disdain at the treatment of the 69 year old Qaddafi in the run up to his death. Furthermore, we've all expressed that we think the NTC, in the form of NATO stooges, are as bad and probably worse than Qaddafi was (if you want to reduce everything down to simply A vs B value statements).

So stop with your pathetic, slanderous bullshit.

Btw, had much luck with converting the Occupy London participants to glorious Leninism yet?



It’s all about hypocrisy.

As ‘Murdock’s Marxists’ you lot joined in with the western press to demonising their target and you can’t now hypocritically say “a pox on all of you” to get yourselves of the hook because you knew in advance of the sodomising murdering and brutalising techniques employed by imperialism. And it’s right under your noses at the bottom of this thread.

sodomized

http://www.revleft.com/vb/tags.php?tag=sodomized

[Ocean Seal]

And here the rebel apologists come to tell us that we should hope for spontaneous working class revolution, and not care what about what is happening to Libya now, because both sides were bourgeois. Never mind that the people of Libya are going to enter a new period of suffering. Here to tell us what a bad guy Qaddafi was, our team of ultra-lefts! He's gone now, you can stand against the bourgeois NTC with us, or you can make snide remarks to cover up for your support of the NTC.

[skizzy]

This seems like a very split issue. I know many leftists that support him and hate him. I know he did a lot of positive. I still dont think what happened to him was just at all. Im still confused if half the bad things people said he did actually happened. I mean with the medias track record im not sure what to believe. It seems like a lot on here rather make silly remarks and attack others than have constructive conversation. But, really If you think he was a madman and he deserved all this ,I think you are mistaken, thats just me personally though. :)

[Os Cangaceiros]

Honestly, when you make imply political points about the people you dislike based on actions like this, you kind of leave yourself open to silly comments.

Gaddafi wasn't known for his kind, gentle approach to his political opponents. If you tried to organize contra-Gaddafi in the years before he became a bit more "soft", chances are you'd either end up 1) in jail, or 2) dead. Furthermore, some of the people who've supported the daffi on this board have also supported the Assad regime. Those guys go hard, you don't want to find yourself on the wrong end of an electrical cord in Syria. If you sit on a thrown of swords...

People who attack the rebels (who, as the "new boss", should be attacked) need to work on their talking points, though. Hmm, brutally suppressing political opposition, proclaiming an endorsement for sharia law, and it all ends up with pimping your country out to western capital? gee, why does this narrative sound so familiar?

And do we really need to go around in a circle talking about how outraged we are at what happened? Yes, knife-rape, it's awful. I'm now on the record saying it. Again, for the record: the user known as "Explosive Situation" does not condone knife-rape in any way, shape or form.

[Threetune]

Honestly, when you make imply political points about the people you dislike based on actions like this, you kind of leave yourself open to silly comments.

Gaddafi wasn't known for his kind, gentle approach to his political opponents. If you tried to organize contra-Gaddafi in the years before he became a bit more "soft", chances are you'd either end up 1) in jail, or 2) dead. Furthermore, some of the people who've supported the daffi on this board have also supported the Assad regime. Those guys go hard, you don't want to find yourself on the wrong end of an electrical cord in Syria. If you sit on a thrown of swords...

People who attack the rebels (who, as the "new boss", should be attacked) need to work on their talking points, though. Hmm, brutally suppressing political opposition, proclaiming an endorsement for sharia law, and it all ends up with pimping your country out to western capital? gee, why does this narrative sound so familiar?

And do we really need to go around in a circle talking about how outraged we are at what happened? Yes, knife-rape, it's awful. I'm now on the record saying it. Again, for the record: the user known as "Explosive Situation" does not condone knife-rape in any way, shape or form.

Oh yes, squirming moralising and facile “condemnations” of all brutality without an explanation of the contemporary imperialist economic crisis context its happening in with its all-round ramped-up warmongering of which this latest blitzing and lynching is only the latest part and all “support” and “condemnation” without advancing a communist program for the world is at best pointless self moralising self indulgence.

[RadioRaheem84]

What I want to know is why wasn't there even the least bit of tacit support for Gaddafi for the sake of maintaining what was left of the State? I am sure that after seeing the horrendous way in which the imperialist powers can be extremely opportunist, Gaddafi would've made way for reform or would've stepped down from power to keep Libya from fully being in the hands of the imperialists.

Why is that so hard to imagine for some people in here? Were the only options for leftists to sit on the sidelines and say there was no hope for the working class?

Was Gaddafi such a portrait of evil that people believed siding with him meant cementing his rule?

[Rodrigo]

As callous as it sounds, no. A dictator is a leader who relies on terror and brutality to subdue the people he rules over. I have no love for people such as that.

I would be pleased to know how Gaddafi "relied on terror and brutality to subdue the people he ruled over".

[Le Socialiste]

I would be pleased to know how Gaddafi "relied on terror and brutality to subdue the people he ruled over".

Are you seriously suggesting that he didn't?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It’s all about hypocrisy.

As ‘Murdock’s Marxists’ you lot joined in with the western press to demonising their target and you can’t now hypocritically say “a pox on all of you” to get yourselves of the hook because you knew in advance of the sodomising murdering and brutalising techniques employed by imperialism. And it’s right under your noses at the bottom of this thread.

sodomized

http://www.revleft.com/vb/tags.php?tag=sodomized

You either have the IQ of a golden retriever (in fact, I have one, and i'm doing a disservice to her by saying that, so i'll take that one back) or are hellbent on trolling the fuck out of anything on here. I suspect a bit of both.

Please find ONE instance of where i've ever backed the NTC, NATO or imperialism, or where i've ever done anything but savagely condemn (let alone condone) the treatment of Qaddafy at his death.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

What I want to know is why wasn't there even the least bit of tacit support for Gaddafi for the sake of maintaining what was left of the State? I am sure that after seeing the horrendous way in which the imperialist powers can be extremely opportunist, Gaddafi would've made way for reform or would've stepped down from power to keep Libya from fully being in the hands of the imperialists.

Why is that so hard to imagine for some people in here? Were the only options for leftists to sit on the sidelines and say there was no hope for the working class?

Was Gaddafi such a portrait of evil that people believed siding with him meant cementing his rule?

1. Some of us don't want to 'maintain the state'. That's flawed, national-bourgeois politics, nevermind that it wasn't even the type of late-Brezhnevite state we are talking about; we are talking about what was a religious-influenced, tribal, sexist, nationalist state. Why would anyone want to maintain that, I mean fucking seriously?

2. Yes, it is not difficult to imagine that Qaddafy would defy reform. It's quite obvious from his actions early on in the conflict that he was not going to be ousted democratically.

I mean, c'mon. You can sit there saying what you want, but if you were in Libya and were politically active, you'd surely be as dead as a fucking dog right now, so I hope you can appreciate the irony of calling for 'tacit support' of Qaddafy's rule.

And no - before anyone puts words in my mouth - my rejection of Qaddafy does not in any way imply any support for the NTC, for NATO or their imperial ways, nor for the free-market, nor for any form of economic dictatorship over the working class.

I respectfully have made the choice to make absolutely no choices with regards to the rule of Libya currently; my only choice is to condemn both sides for a civil war that was as bloody as it gets, culminating in the war crime that was the death of the 69 year old Qaddafy. The entire episode has been a disgrace and we should condemn pro-Qaddafy forces, the 'rebels'/NTC and NATO for sending so many young Libyans to their deaths, to replace one dictatorship with another.

It's a sorry saga and it's why some of us choose not to get involved with nationalist dictatorships, because you end up having to take sides in horrendous conflicts such as these, where there are clearly no winners amongst ordinary Libyans.

[Le Socialiste]

It’s all about hypocrisy.

As ‘Murdock’s Marxists’ you lot joined in with the western press to demonising their target and you can’t now hypocritically say “a pox on all of you” to get yourselves of the hook because you knew in advance of the sodomising murdering and brutalising techniques employed by imperialism. And it’s right under your noses at the bottom of this thread.

sodomized

http://www.revleft.com/vb/tags.php?tag=sodomized

Are you fucking kidding me? 'Murdock's Marxists?' Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? If I wanted to be preached at, I'd go back to church. All you seem to do here is spew your divisive slander on every thread you come across. Seriously, either contribute to the discussion or gtfo.

[ZeroNowhere]

You either have the IQ of a golden retriever (in fact, I have one, and i'm doing a disservice to her by saying that, so i'll take that one back) or are hellbent on trolling the fuck out of anything on here.
Or, he's read Lenin.

[Rafiq]

Sickening. This is not how proletarians execute the representatives of the bourgeoisie. Those methods, of humiliating your enemy sexually, are 100% reactionary

[Os Cangaceiros]

Oh yes, squirming moralising and facile “condemnations” of all brutality without an explanation of the contemporary imperialist economic crisis context its happening in with its all-round ramped-up warmongering of which this latest blitzing and lynching is only the latest part and all “support” and “condemnation” without advancing a communist program for the world is at best pointless self moralising self indulgence.

This post is slightly less than comprehensible, but I'll try and reply to it:

I'm not "moralizing". Anyone who says, oh, look, these guys do bad or unpleasant things, think of how this bodes for Libya's future...that's a pretty poor substitute for political analysis, and can lead to all sorts of uncomfortable comparisons. Yes, how dare those savages kill Gaddafi! Don't they know that civilized people establish a system of kangaroo courts which arbitrarily hand out long prison sentences or death to political opponents? IS THIS AMATEUR HOUR OR WHAT?!

As far as a macro-perspective on Libya: yes, markets have been embroiled in a crisis for a while, and yes, Libya is part of the global capitalist marketplace, thus making it not immune to capitalism's heart palpitations. Over 50 separate contractors harvesting Libya's fuel reserves, weapons/weapon systems licenses from the EU worth almost half a billion dollars in 2009, contracts with Chinese rails companies worth billions, a contract with British Petroleum worth almost a billion dollars, the list goes on. What happened in Tunisia and Egypt was a combination of those nation's capitalist systems and their political cultures. It's not surprising that the same thing happened in Libya. Nor is it surprising that a section of the left remained tight-lipped on the days following February 17th, it was only after the no-fly zone got announced that the harsh condemnations started appearing, not when protesters were getting potshots fired at them. It's because Gaddafi brings the left back to a more innocent, simpler time, when there was only the "good guys" (USSR and nations connected diplomatically/economically with USSR) and the "bad guys" (USA and nations connected diplomatically/economically with USA). It almost sort of kinda came close to making sense back then, but now you're stuck with supporting the biggest motley crew of assholes the world has ever seen.

[Seth]

Was gaddafy a stalinist, or just stalinistic?

[tir1944]

Neither.

[Sasha]

Why do you call them “comrades”? They are apologists and propagandists for imperialist bombing and murder.


Statements by the Libya NTC Whitewash Party

“While I agree what the rebels did is disgusting, and should be condemned, we can't lose our grip on reality. Nothing will come of this; no charges, no persecution, no punishment. Neither side represented a truly working class movement, and both have committed their share of "atrocities".

This deserves little discussion, but certainly deserves condemnation. There are worse things happening in the world than Qaddafi being sodomized, beaten, assassinated, etc.”
“Poor Gaddafi. Such an icon of human rights, such a paragon of Libyan dignity. To be savagely murdered by those brutish rebels in such a way...honestly, it's almost like Jesus was crucified all over again. I mean, I'm not religious or anything, but Gaddafi really was probably the closest we've ever come to a perfect, immaculate anti-imperialist Jesus. god bless your beautiful soul, sweet prince.”

Signed:

Die Rote Fahne #FF0000, Bardo, Danielle Ni Dhighe, la peur rouge, La Sombra, Le Socialiste, Mather, Oscar the Grouch, rosario, Smyg, socialistjustin, Stammer and Tickle, Tenka, thefinalmarchExplosive Situation#FF0000, Apoi_Viitor, AsiniDiabolica, black magick hustla, danyboy25,Dzerzhinsky's Ghost, Garret, Jose Gracchus, Savage, Tablo, The Stalinator


infraction for flaming

[Nox]

Was gaddafy a stalinist, or just stalinistic?

He wasn't Socialist, but he was very Socialistic and the Libyan people lived a quality of life under him comparable with European nations.

Here's a quick list from a website

1. All the newly weds people of Libya used to get about 50,000 dollars from Government to lead a very happy life.
2. Home is the basic right of every citizen of Libya.
3. There was no electricity bill in Libiya. Electricity is free.
4. No interest loan for the people of Libya according to Law. Gaddafi was against interest since interest is forbidden in Islam.
5. Gaddafi has increased the literacy rate from 25% to 83%. Education expenses in Government universities are free in Libya.
6. Medical expenses in Government hospitals was free in Libya.
7. The price of the patrol was 0.14 cents in Libya. Yes we all know Libya has got good petroleum resources. But the price seems to be too low. Isn't it?
8. When Libyan citizen buys a car, Government used to subsidized 50% of the price of the car. 50%? sounds great!
9. A huge bread used to cost only 15 cents in Libya.
10. The GDP per capita of Libya is very high. Over 15,000 us dollars. Purchasing power was very high compare to the GDP.
11. The economy of Libya was improving rapidly. In 2010 it had 10% growth. It has not external debts. It also has the reserves amount of 150+ billion dollars.
12. Unemployment fees were given from the government until the person finds a Job.
13. A Libyan mother used to get 5000 us dollars for giving birth a child.
14. Gaddafi created huge irrigation projects, such as the great man made river and huge farms in the sahara desert.
15. If a Libyan citizen wanted to set up a farm, the government would give them all the equipment and land they needed.

He was also a very brutal dictator who did some very bad things.

There are many reasons put forward as to why NATO really invaded Libya, but the main two are because of Libya's huge oil reserves, and because of Gaddafi's plan to create a new, strong African currency.

Weighing it out, he did many good things and many bad things, but overall most people who support him do so for anti-imperialist reasons, not because of who he was or what he did.

[thefinalmarch]

he was very Socialistic
Whilst there's little argument concerning what you said about living standards in the Jamahiriyah, what you just said in the above quote is simply nonsense. There is no quality that Qadaffi possessed which could render him even "socialistic" which isn't also possessed by any of the hundreds of thousands of bourgeois liberal and social democratic ideologues.

Did he support the overthrow of capitalism and bourgeois society? No. Did he actively take part in the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie? Yes.

[A Marxist Historian]

Well...I have no idea what he did exactly. It would have been a good thing IMO if he were to somehow be made to explain and account for what he did. And NOT only because we need to hear what has happened under hist government....but also how this ties in into the other bourgeoisie states and open that white wash attempt.

But that unfortunately would probably have meant a repeat of Milosevic (though...admitted Ghaddaffi is considerable less elonquent than Milosovic) trial farce. Yet another perfect example of imperialist victory justice...which did not go so well for them (don't get me wrong...not defending the man....simply indicating that he should not have been the only indicted person there)

So this was never a possibility for the NATO powers.

I am no fan of Milosevic, but compared to the folk who put him on trial he looked good.

Which is why they had to do him in, he was defending himself too well, it was getting embarrassing.

-M.H.-

[Nox]

Whilst there's little argument concerning what you said about living standards in the Jamahiriyah, what you just said in the above quote is simply nonsense. There is no quality that Qadaffi possessed which could render him even "socialistic" which isn't also possessed by any of the hundreds of thousands of bourgeois liberal and social democratic ideologues.

Did he support the overthrow of capitalism and bourgeois society? No. Did he actively take part in the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie? Yes.

Socialistic =/= Socialist

[Spetsnaz]

Sick sick sick! These NATO puppets need to be hung by their intestines!!!

[thefinalmarch]

Socialistic =/= Socialist
Yes, but "socialistic" implies any sort of relation to socialism, which Qadaffi did not have. All the improvements in living standards, for example, could just as easily have been the result of social democratic policies.

[thefinalmarch]

Sick sick sick! These NATO puppets need to be hung by their intestines!!!
I'm willing to bet that's hundreds of times more inhumane than ramming a stick up his arse.

[CleverTitle]

How could he be "socialistic" anyway? There is no vague resemblance to socialism in any facet of Libya, past or present.


Sick sick sick! These NATO puppets need to be hung by their intestines!!!

You're right, the proper response to senseless violence and brutality is senseless violence and brutality. Christ.