UK Riot Stats

[bricolage]

Read these in the paper this morning, which accounts for the headings used. Sorry for the bad formatting;

'Victims';
- More than 2,500 shops and businesses hit.
- 664 muggings
- 230 homes were hit

'Culprits';
- Five or more A* to C grades at GCS; Riot suspects - 10%, National Average - 53%
- persistent absentees from school; RS - 30%, NA - 4%
- suspened from school at least once in a year; RS - 36%, NA - 5.6%
- excluded from school; RS - 11.3%, NA - 0.1%
- free school meals; RS - 42%, NA - 12%
- average school absence rate; RS - 18.6%, NA - 8.4%

Age;
- Over 40 = 5%
- Under 21 = 50%

Gender;
- 90% were male

Ethnic breakdown;
Black or mixed race - 46%
White - 42%
Asian - 7%
Other - 5%

Other;
- 75% of those who appeared in court had a previous conviction or caution
(80% were adults, 62% were juveniles)
- 100 adults were claiming disability living allowance
- 60 adults were claiming incapacity benefit
- 35% of adults were claiming and out of work benefit (national average 12%)
- 45% of adults had been sentenced for an indictable offence last year
- 13% arrested were connected to gangs, rising to 19% in London

[Nox]

All that information shows is that the rioters were mostly minorities or poor/working class people, also known as the victims of society.

[Искра]

No, these stats show that you have to cut welfare too these lasy bastards, muggers and imigrants. :cool:

[Black_Rose]

No, these stats show that you have to cut welfare too these lasy bastards, muggers and imigrants. :cool:

Yes, you are correct about how the general public will interpret these statistics.

I am not sanguine about the prospects of a revolution in any developed country, particularly because of the middle class' attitude towards disadvantaged citizens. I disagree with the fundamental slogan of OWS -that is the 99% vs. a privileged 1% - and it seems that the movement's failure is ineluctable. It certainly is obvious that bourgeois values have permeated contemporary Western culture, and many among the 99% have are inculcated with a rather inimical mindset that contradicts the principles of revolutionary leftism. I am referring to the ubiquitous belief among the middle class that capitalism is meritocratic, meaning that the system confers those with the ability to provide value in the marketplace with wealth and social prestige, and, most importantly, these people are morally entitled to it, since they legitimately earned it. A pernicious corollary is that the impoverished deserve financial tribulation, the drudgery of menial labor, and humiliation, since they are either lazy or unintelligent to substantially contribute to society (in this case the market economy). This is a manifestation of people embracing the just world theory, even though it is contravened by empirical observation, because the assumption of a just world allows one to perceive himself as a "good person" who is immune to misfortune because of his conduct or personal qualities will protect him from grievous harm in a "just world". This person believes that others who suffer personal misfortune "deserved" it due personal vice/incompetence. The demagogic apologists of capitalism promulgate the just world theory to the masses to deflect suspicions that there are systemic problems with capitalism and blame individuals, protect the political and economic elites from criticism, and further ossify the social order.

One strategic, long-term goal of the revolutionary left (or even earnest liberals) should be to eradicate this mindset from their culture; this will yield more people sympathetic with the abolition of capitalism and imperialism, which will further advance the revolution.

We should not get despondent, but do not underestimate bourgeois cultural influence. That is an egregious strategic blunder!

===
On a personal note:

I used to consider being a Catholic, but a reason for my disillusion with organized religion is my observation that most Catholics are not virtuous: they are judgmental people who blame the poor (in general) for their economic problems; and conflate with sanctimoniousness (in this case this means ostentatious displays of their pro-life views) and the ability to selectively quote papal encyclical to support their social and economic views. In contrast, revolutionary leftists are virtuous and morally superior people simply because we are not judgmental, and do not speak in a tone of condemnation and disdain towards the unfortunate, but instead, with sympathy, amity, compassion, and sometimes mild admonishment.

[Arm Cathartha na hÉireann]

At least these statistics will refute claims by the far right that this is a problem soley ingrained in ethinic minority communities, although I doubt the mainstram media will highlight this point but merely continue to pick up on the few cases of people with degrees rioting.



===
On a personal note:

I used to consider being a Catholic, but a reason for my disillusion with organized religion is my observation that most Catholics are not virtuous: they are judgmental people who blame the poor (in general) for their economic problems; and conflate with sanctimoniousness (in this case this means ostentatious displays of their pro-life views) and the ability to selectively quote papal encyclical to support their social and economic views. In contrast, revolutionary leftists are virtuous and morally superior people simply because we are not judgmental, and do not speak in a tone of condemnation and disdain towards the unfortunate, but instead, with sympathy, amity, compassion, and sometimes mild admonishment.
Sorry but this is just a sweeping generalisation and what you said is not unique to just Catholics but people of many different faiths or even athiests (Think Richard Dawkins, who i saw in a documentry essentialy blamed the poverty in the Phillipines on the fact that the poor had to many children due to the fact that they didnt wear condoms). I myself am from a Catholic background, although no longer practice (not that i every realy did with any conviction) and can not rember once through my schooling or when ive attened mass did I hear the priest or teachers blame the poor for being poor. You seem to have taken the views of the vocal wealthier upper and middle class catholics as speaking for the majority of the followers of the religion.

[aty]

What a shocker....

[RadioRaheem84]

Victims of the capitalist social order retaliating in violent ways because they don't have any other outlet for their grievances.

The media knows this but will just let people "decide" that it's really a bunch of non-natives and blacks that loot for the hell of it.

[tir1944]

Victims of the capitalist social order retaliating in violent ways because they don't have any other outlet for their grievances.
They do have other outlets.
Also i'd even question if they were "retaliating" in the first place,because in order to retaliate you have to be conscious of what you're retaliating for and against who.

[RadioRaheem84]

They do have other outlets.
Also i'd even question if they were "retaliating" in the first place,because in order to retaliate you have to be conscious of what you're retaliating for and against who.

I was under the impression that the retaliation was unconscious, like a rebellion against a society they feel cares not for them.

Also, what other outlets? Obviously they don't know a lot about them.

[tir1944]

I was under the impression that the retaliation was unconscious, like a rebellion against a society they feel cares not for them.
Ok,maybe this is an issue of English not being my native language...


Also, what other outlets? Obviously they don't know a lot about them.
They can read books(novels or academical stuff),play basketball,learn for school,chase girls (or boys), or hang around the block doing nothing.
To imply that these young people had to resort to looting and vandalism because "they had no other outlet" is ludicruous.

[RadioRaheem84]

They can read books(novels or academical stuff),play basketball,learn for school,chase girls (or boys), or hang around the block doing nothing.
To imply that these young people had to resort to looting and vandalism because "they had no other outlet" is ludicruous.

These outlets wear out their use once they realize the economic and social situation keeps them from obtaining a higher status in society.

Of course there are many outlets they can choose, I am not saying they're inclined or pre-determined toward violence, but when their options are limited in terms of social mobility, crime usually fills the void that high unemployment leaves.

[tir1944]

These outlets wear out their use once they realize the economic and social situation keeps them from obtaining a higher status in society. May be,may not be,but vandalism is even worse in that regard.Right? I mean who the hell is going to hire someone who not only comes from a poor neighborhood,but has a police record on vandalism as well?



Of course there are many outlets they can choose, I am not saying they're inclined or pre-determined toward violence, but when their options are limited in terms of social mobility, crime usually fills the void that high unemployment leaves. Probably,but communists should work on getting the youth off the streets,inciting them to study,to understand that it's capitalism that keeps them down and that there's a way out too, instead of approving this mindless vandalism that exploded recently(which is what *SOME* (EDIT) "leftist" parties did).

[RadioRaheem84]

Were there really leftists approving the violence?

[tir1944]

If Spartacists can be considered leftists,yes:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/spartacists-give-looters-t162049/index.html

[ZeroNowhere]

Probably,but communists should work on getting the youth off the streets,inciting them to study,to understand that it's capitalism that keeps them down and that there's a way out too, instead of approving this mindless vandalism that exploded recently(which is what *SOME* (EDIT) "leftist" parties did).
Oh, please,they're far more important and revolutionary than we are.

[tir1944]

Oh, please,they're far more important and revolutionary than we are.
First of all,who are "we".I don't know you and you don't know me.:laugh:
Second of all,you may elaborate on that more...because your point is a bit hard to understand, innit?

[dodger]

No statistics on how many of our youth showed off their loot on FACEBOOK. Only to get a knock at the front door. Mr PLOD. I do have a heart...ok I don't have a heart...but if I did it would certainly melt at this story. A student late teens, female stole some gadget or other during the riots. Spent all night crying over her lapse. Did no more than hand herself and the gadget at the nearest police station. YOU GUESSED RIGHT!! The poor lamb was charged...cue more tears. A fast track court hearing ....and the judge said she could expect a prison sentence....cue Niagra Falls. I calculate she must have been crying for 48 hours. Maybe she was still crying when the cell door slammed shut. I only had time to wipe my own eyes, getting misty reading...when the radio dropped the bombshell. She was 2 years into a Social workers DEGREE. SWEET JESUS...sorry my tears were laughter.TIR1944 almost tempted to make a cheap pot shot at the theory of Education as an escape route from crime. Not on a blog though!! There are better points to be made though Marxman at the time made these points I thought worth reading....

http://imarxman.wordpress.com/2011/08/11/riot-acts/

http://imarxman.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/riot-acts-2/

[Black_Rose]

No statistics on how many of our youth showed off their loot on FACEBOOK.



On Facebook one is likely to have their real name on their account, and don't forget the Facebook can use data-mining algorithms to find suspicious pictures involving criminal activities. It is certainly imprudent for one not to be concealing his/her face while participating in the riots, and to post evidence of their illegal activity. I admire RevLeft's draconian stance towards posters who name their comrades or personal pictures, and the administrators certainly understand that it is necessary to curtail personal freedom (in this case posting personal pictures) to ensure safety of fellow revolutionaries and the long-term viability of our movement.

I hope the story of the young woman who turned herself in serve a cautionary tale for the left (although the right certainly wants this message to be conveyed too, ironically). It should remind us the establishment will not show give any clemency, even if an individual is sincerely penitent. "Justice" in a capitalist government is not about an abstract notion of "justice", "morality", or "ethics": it is much more pragmatic; it serves to defend the interests of the bourgeois and to instill a sense of obedience in the working class.


---

Socialismo o muerte!

[Black_Rose]

At least these statistics will refute claims by the far right that this is a problem soley ingrained in ethinic minority communities, although I doubt the mainstram media will highlight this point but merely continue to pick up on the few cases of people with degrees rioting.


Sorry but this is just a sweeping generalisation and what you said is not unique to just Catholics but people of many different faiths or even athiests (Think Richard Dawkins, who i saw in a documentry essentialy blamed the poverty in the Phillipines on the fact that the poor had to many children due to the fact that they didnt wear condoms). I myself am from a Catholic background, although no longer practice (not that i every realy did with any conviction) and can not rember once through my schooling or when ive attened mass did I hear the priest or teachers blame the poor for being poor. You seem to have taken the views of the vocal wealthier upper and middle class catholics as speaking for the majority of the followers of the religion.

Regarding Dawkins:
I do not see how Dawkins is blaming the victims in this case. Dawkins, instead of framing the issue as a matter of personal responsibility, may be critiquing the influence of the Catholic Church in the Philippines since the Church discourages condom use and a predominantly Catholic nation such as the Philippines would take Papal ukases that prohibit contraception seriously.

I apologize for any negative, unjust stereotypes I made towards Catholics. I guess I was just loath to call "vocal wealthier upper and middle class catholics" "my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ". My impressions of Catholics are certainly biased towards my own personal experiences, as I attended Mass about a year ago at a parish that was predominantly socially and economically conservative; furthermore, the Catholics on Internet forums are also like this. I remember how the Colombian revolutionary force, ELN (National Liberation Army), was initially based on liberation theology.

My primary point still stands: the revolutionary left is morally superior and virtuous! We are virtuous because we eschewed the just world theory, and we do not blame for poor's actions for their situation.

[LeftAtheist]

Which newspaper was this information in, bricolage? Thanks for the stats by the way. :)

[bricolage]

Which newspaper was this information in, bricolage? Thanks for the stats by the way. :)
I read it in the metro.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Why is black and mixed race put together

[Manic Impressive]

sorry but these stats are going to be based on how many people were arrested. Now as most of the arrests came after the riots, meaning the police found them using finger prints, DNA and photo I.D.s. Now if you've been nicked before the police already have all that info on you so you are far more likely to be caught. The newspaper has then scaled up this small amount of people and presented it as representative of everyone who rioted for their own right wing agenda. Sorry but I think the stats are absolutely useless, unless you use them as an example of how stats can be manipulated to show whatever you want.

[Black_Rose]

sorry but these stats are going to be based on how many people were arrested. Now as most of the arrests came after the riots, meaning the police found them using finger prints, DNA and photo I.D.s. Now if you've been nicked before the police already have all that info on you so you are far more likely to be caught. The newspaper has then scaled up this small amount of people and presented it as representative of everyone who rioted for their own right wing agenda. Sorry but I think the stats are absolutely useless, unless you use them as an example of how stats can be manipulated to show whatever you want.

I would be interested in the role of forensic evidence in capturing some of the rioters. Also, how many of these rioters would have avoided arrest if they followed rudimentary precautions such as wearing a mask or not posting pictures of yourself (or allowing others to) on the Internet. The rioters should have the foresight that the bourgeois state will not treat them with any mercy or show them sympathy.

I am imagining forensic labs analyzing RFLPs (restriction fragment length polymorphisms) and computer algorithms analyzing fingerprints from a reference database.

[Manic Impressive]

I can't say how much forensics were used and that may not have been enough on it's own to secure a conviction. From what I remember there were about 1600 arrests which is where this data comes from. But 1600 is only a small fraction of the total number of people who were out that week, a number which nobody knows and the ones that were caught just happened to be the ones who were easiest to catch. The po po would also probably just round up the usual suspects i.e. those who they know to be connected to gangs, those with criminal records, quick home invasion and if they find shit they nick them.

[A Marxist Historian]

If Spartacists can be considered leftists,yes:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/spartacists-give-looters-t162049/index.html

A slander, as anyone who actually reads the piece will discover. It says quite clearly that the "collateral damage" that some people suffered during this youth/minority rebellion was unfortunate and counterproductive.

But the Spartacists, unlike all too many people on this thread, our Stalin fan tir here being the most horrible example, were on the side of the people rather than on the side of the ruling class.

--M.H.-

[brigadista]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/15/england-riots-poverty-evictions-benefits

[bricolage]

I agree with Manic Impressive that the figures only reflect those arrested by the cops, the majority of which would be those with previous records or already on the police radar. That being said it's interesting that out of that figure the percentage with relations to gangs (although I'm not sure how this was judged) was so low. You then have to say that out of the wider participants that number would be even lower. The figures about 'victims' still stand and there is probably a general trend visible here that, however spurious it might be, would likely be reflected in wider numbers. That being said it's worth taking the whole thing with a looted bag of salt.

[Ocean Seal]

Probably,but communists should work on getting the youth off the streets,inciting them to study,to understand that it's capitalism that keeps them down and that there's a way out too, instead of approving this mindless vandalism that exploded recently(which is what *SOME* (EDIT) "leftist" parties did).
Yes, but we should also note that so long as capitalism exists this violence will exist, and that it will get progressively worse. Capitalism cannot employ all of its citizens and the youth are realizing that, they are realizing that capitalism is collapsing right before their eyes, and in order to preserve something they try to take commodities with them to insure their future. Capitalism is devolving and so the proletariat reacts.