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Queercommie Girl
23rd October 2011, 23:43
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20111023/LIFE/310230045/Grinnell-College-dorms-Where-gender-doesn-t-matter?fb_ref=artrectop&fb_source=profile_oneline

Male, female, transgender, no gender, gay, lesbian, straight. Labels don’t matter at Grinnell College. Students can share a dormitory room, bathroom, shower room or locker room with any of the above, if they choose.


This fall, the progressive private liberal arts college on the Iowa prairie added a gender-neutral locker room to its mix of gender-neutral dormitory options.


The locker room in the athletic complex is for those using the recreational facilities, physical education students, varsity athletes or spectators of athletic events.


It’s the next step for Grinnell College, which became Iowa’s only college three years ago to offer an option for males, females or others to share the same dorm room, part of a growing trend nationwide. The University of Iowa and Cornell College are among Iowa colleges also considering the option in coming years, while more than 50 mostly private colleges across the country have been joined recently by a few public universities with gender-neutral housing.


“It’s about an ethos. It’s about creating a safe and welcoming space. It’s not about being able to room with your significant other,” said Lily Cross, a senior who helped persuade Grinnell officials to offer gender-neutral housing.


The idea was driven by transgender students, those who don’t identify themselves as either male or female, and students transitioning from one gender to the other. Gender-neutral grew from one percent of the school’s on-campus housing in 2008-09 to 18 percent this fall, and officials discontinued asking students to divulge gender or orientation. The rooms include straight males and females living together, although those who self-identify as transgender are given priority, which includes five this fall.


“Sometimes people get in romantic relationships but we discourage that,” said Andrea Conner, director of residence life and orientation. “Living in a 12-by-12 room with a significant other is tough at any age.”


Colleges are several generations removed from the days when different genders often didn’t attend the same colleges. As a more gender-diverse population evolved, separate dormitories were built. Grinnell’s gender-neutral floors today are housed inside residence halls built in 1915-16. Back then they were exclusively male or female — and at opposite ends of the campus. Then mixed-gender residence halls with alternating male-female floors evolved. It was such a big deal when Oberlin College added co-ed halls in the 1970s it made the cover of Life Magazine. Then mixed-gender floors became common.


“I think the changes are a reflection of changing times,” said James Baumann, director of communications for the Association of College & University Housing Officers — International.


Creating a “shack up” community hasn’t happened, college officials say. Putting a man and woman together in a dorm room doesn’t mean they will have sex. Nor does it mean that two men or two women together won’t, students have told the National Gender Blind Campaign, a group of student activists working for gender equality.


“A couple decades ago, colleges were expected to behave as parents,” Conner said. “Today we are treating students like adults and letting them make their own decisions.”


When Cross, 22, moved from Los Angeles to Grinnell she wanted to live on a residence hall floor where students were comfortable with her transition from male to female.


“Especially in college, that’s tough to go through,” she said. “It’s important to still get this experience of having a roommate while getting to be themselves.”


Some students are not comfortable with the “binary of the sexes” and are analyzing their identity on a gender spectrum that can vary widely.
“This is a comfortable option for those that have trouble deciding whether to go to the bathroom — with the skirt or the pants on the sign,” Conner said.


Canadian Austin McKenney, 18, chose Grinnell College even though “I didn’t believe Iowa existed; like it was made up.” But when he visited, he found an atmosphere of acceptance among the 1,550 students.
He chose to room with a female. ‘Tep Blount of Washington, D.C., a straight female, felt more comfortable with males and figured rooming with them would be less stressful. She wasn’t at all taken aback when she met Austin, with short-cropped hair and slight figure. She asked him right away, “Are you transgender?”


McKenney was relieved. He is female-to-male transgender and found it refreshing that people at Grinnell were comfortably up-front and actually asked him what pronoun he preferred.


Parents can sometimes be a hurdle. Blount’s conservative parents “weren’t too happy about it,” she said. “But I just told them I’m comfortable with it and I wasn’t going to make any changes.”


Her parents haven’t met Austin yet, but the two get along just fine.
McKenney had faced numerous problems in the past. He has been tossed out of bathrooms or asked for identification. (“We share bathroom stories like trading cards,” he said.)


At Grinnell, the floor’s common bathrooms are for everyone, if all residents vote that they should be gender neutral.


Toilets have stalls and showers have doors so that anyone can use the facilities at the same time.


Grinnell officials and students said there have been no problems on gender-neutral floors.


“In my first floor meetings, I cover the co-ed notion of female and males being strictly defined. But in gender neutral, that binary is destroyed. There is a spectrum of gender,” said Camila Barrios Camacho, a student adviser of gender-neutral housing.


“Ideally, we would live in a gender-neutral world where your sex wouldn’t define you. We wouldn’t be defined by our physical bodies.


“It would value the essence of a person rather than the physical makeup.”


A growing number of students are expressing new ways to look at gender.


“More students today don’t identify with the binary. That is a more recent shift,” said Astrid Henry, associate professor of gender, women’s and sexuality studies at Grinnell.


Some students don’t want to be referred to in male or female pronouns because they carry societal labels, preferring the pronoun “ze” (for she) or “hir” (for he), Henry said. “Even in class as the chair of gender studies I get told, ‘I don’t want to be called she,’ ze said.”


For some, it may be easy to ridicule as ivory-tower babble, but an entire new field — transgender studies — has emerged, and television personalities such as Chaz Bono are bringing the often confusing topic to light.


Grinnell doesn’t have any current varsity athletes who have identified themselves as transgender, but assistant athletic director Heather Benning said that with the school’s embrace of diversity, it was important to be a leader. The NCAA recently issued a “best practices” memo which includes providing gender-neutral locker rooms.


It’s also important, she said, to have the same access to programs and sports as housing so students can have the full college experience.
“I’ve already had people tell me they used to swim a lot before they came to college but didn’t want to navigate that situation in the locker room,” she said. “Now they can.”


Parents who visit their children on gender-neutral floors now will encounter these signs: “Queer Safe Space” and “Be an ally to gay and lesbians.”


So far, McKenney has found plenty of allies.


“I feel comfortable here. It’s a welcome breath of fresh air after high school,” he said. “People here even say to you, ‘Sorry, I gendered you.’ ”

jake williams
24th October 2011, 00:01
That's cool.

Seriously though, just use "they". It has a looong history of being used as a gender-neutral pronoun, and sounds natural to native english speakers anyway. I just don't get the desire to come up with new words. (Or rather, I wish I didn't, because it's not totally healthy).

Yuppie Grinder
24th October 2011, 00:02
cool
two of my sisters went there
according to them it was pretty dull and there wasn't much to do other than smoke weed

The Jay
24th October 2011, 00:12
That's really cool. The only ridiculable thing was that ze, hir stuff. That part was silly but other than that it's great news that a more progressive attitude is gaining ground.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
24th October 2011, 11:35
That's really cool. The only ridiculable thing was that ze, hir stuff. That part was silly
Even if that's the pronoun of choice for the individual?

jake williams
24th October 2011, 22:48
Even if that's the pronoun of choice for the individual?
Yes.

Zav
24th October 2011, 23:19
Yay for progressivity!
There is a mistake in the article. 'Ze' is a simple pronoun, and 'hir' is a possessive pronoun.
The point of them is to have a grammatically correct neutral pronoun, which English lacks. The word 'they' cannot be correctly used that way. The words do not have the sexist and genital connotations that 'he' and 'she' do.

Jake Williams and Liquid State, words are invented all the time to describe concepts that are new, complex, abstract, or otherwise not clearly defined. Without this effect we would have about twenty words to describe everything, and they would all be examples of onomatopoeia. There is nothing ridiculous about it.

NoOneIsIllegal
24th October 2011, 23:26
Big news for a small town. Population: 9,000.

Very cool stuff. I've been by that college a few times in my life.
It seems Iowa is becoming one of the most tolerant and accepting places of LGBT issues in the US. For sure the best in the Midwest.

jake williams
24th October 2011, 23:40
Jake Williams and Liquid State, words are invented all the time to describe concepts that are new, complex, abstract, or otherwise not clearly defined. Without this effect we would have about twenty words to describe everything, and they would all be examples of onomatopoeia. There is nothing ridiculous about it.
A gender neutral singlular personal pronoun is neither new, nor complex, nor abstract, nor otherwise unclearly defined. "They" suffices perfectly. To most native English speakers it's totally unremarkable; to others, it's certainly both clearer - and much less grating, because "ze" sounds idiotic" - than inventing a word.

Also, I could drop the fact that pronouns are part of a "closed set" of vocabulary that intrinsically doesn't change easily, simply because of the way our brains process language. "They" works. It really does.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
25th October 2011, 00:54
"They" suffices perfectly.
To some trans and gender variant people, it doesn't suffice.

Jennifer
25th October 2011, 06:14
This is pretty cool stuff, and I hope this progressiveness reaches even further. Sad that my best friend, who is a gay male, wouldn't even be able to room with me just 'cause he's got the peen and I got the vag. Poppycock, I say. HOWEVER, I'm not understanding the "ze" and "hir" thing...to be honest, it's the first I've heard of it. What is SO mortifying about being call "he" or "she"...if your transgendered would you not preferred to be called the gender you intend to be? Someone care to clarify this for me?

Danielle Ni Dhighe
25th October 2011, 07:10
Also, stating "they" is good enough and expecting trans/gender variant people fall in line is nothing but cis privilege.

Revy
25th October 2011, 07:28
How would one pronounce "hir"? I'd think based on phonetics most people would pronounce that the same way they pronounce the word "her". See for example the word "fir". the "ir" sound in words like virtue. Or is "hir" instead pronounced like the word "here"?

I agree that the word THEY and THEIR is a perfect gender neutral pronoun, despite dumb official grammar objections, it is already part of the English language and is used as a gender neutral pronoun quite often to justify its usage. It's a lot easier than saying "his or her".

Queercommie Girl
25th October 2011, 15:11
How about people focus less on the intricacies of the English language and more on combatting hate crime and general prejudice against trans and genderqueer people?

Having the luxury to focus solely on language as you are not threatened with transphobia on a regular basis is a rather middle class privilege. :rolleyes:

The Jay
25th October 2011, 15:25
How about members of this forum that are in college start petitions advocating gender neutral housing?

Landsharks eat metal
25th October 2011, 16:02
This is pretty cool stuff, and I hope this progressiveness reaches even further. Sad that my best friend, who is a gay male, wouldn't even be able to room with me just 'cause he's got the peen and I got the vag. Poppycock, I say. HOWEVER, I'm not understanding the "ze" and "hir" thing...to be honest, it's the first I've heard of it. What is SO mortifying about being call "he" or "she"...if your transgendered would you not preferred to be called the gender you intend to be? Someone care to clarify this for me?

There are more gender identities than just male and female. Some people identify as not having a gender, or having different genders at different times, being not quite either male or female, or having a completely different gender than the binary, and a bunch of others.

Like me. I use the terms "transmasculine" and "non-binary transguy" for myself. I am more male than female and wish for my appearance to reflect that more than it does currently, but I don't feel fully male and want people close to me to think of me that way. (The terms I use might be used differently by other people, but everyone is equally correct in their usage as long as they are identifying themselves.)

I prefer neutral pronouns, especially "ni", but I'm not too fussed about what anyone calls me. Anything besides "she" and "it" makes me happy, but others will get more upset if you call them by the wrong pronoun. As a general rule, ask them what they prefer.

I hope this helps. :)

Apoi_Viitor
25th October 2011, 17:30
How about members of this forum that are in college start petitions advocating gender neutral housing?

My college already has them...

tir1944
25th October 2011, 17:36
What's gender neutral housing?

The Jay
25th October 2011, 17:41
What's gender neutral housing?

Read the OP.

dodger
25th October 2011, 17:51
uncanny...the other side of the world....in Mindanao...but no fanfares....wifey runs a modest rooming house for 50students...mostly a hidebound catholic college across the highway. Somehow you have replicated what we have here. We did not plan it that way...it evolved, the credit all goes to the young folk and good sense of wifey. Gay boys often share with girls,,,with full backing of parents. We planned separate dorms for each sex.....it just did not work. We all like the way it is now. There is some formality which I go along with..when in Rome...I am addressed as sir or uncle(my age). The older gay man is called madam, ma'm or aunty. She and her I have managed with wifey's coaching are now used to refer to gay men.(they like it) My grand children all under 10 address gay boys as ATAY(older sister). They were not coached, somehow they must have thought it was the most natural thing in the world to do. If there are 2 Jeromes and Wifey wants to talk with the gay one she will call Jerome(bayut). i.e.Jerome(gay)...utterly neutral.

I wish you all good times...go easy on the weed....I banned it here!! SERIOUSLY. after stepping over 3 corpses in 7 months.....all head shot. SALVAGED is the term used. All let in very public places...the message could not have been clearer.......and for goodness sake no force feeding pronouns...whatever feels natural will just work fine.

jake williams
25th October 2011, 20:05
How about people focus less on the intricacies of the English language and more on combatting hate crime and general prejudice against trans and genderqueer people?

Having the luxury to focus solely on language as you are not threatened with transphobia on a regular basis is a rather middle class privilege. :rolleyes:
I don't disagree. If anything I think it's important to make the point that this sort of pronoun politics - especially when one's political activity consists almost entirely in inventing new words of various sorts - is a total distraction from the real issues involved for people.

I could take issue with some uses of the concepts of "middle class" and "privilege" politics, but that's a whole other story.

Yuppie Grinder
26th October 2011, 00:13
singular "they" makes a lot more sense then "ze" or "hir"

Queercommie Girl
26th October 2011, 18:55
I could take issue with some uses of the concepts of "middle class" and "privilege" politics, but that's a whole other story.


Actually I partly agree with you. I was kind of "exaggerating" a bit for effect. I think the idea that students are categorically "middle class" is misleading in this day and age. Many students are from working class backgrounds, and some students actually work and study at the same time.

After all, I'm from a "middle class" student background myself so it's unlikely for me to go completely against my own roots...

Regarding the pronoun thing, I think it is importantto address genderqueer people with a gender-neutral pronoun and MtF/FtM trans people with the pronoun of their chosen gender, but to worry too much about exactly what kind of gender-neutral pronoun is used is over the top.

Also, this is a matter of tactics: using "they" would make gender-neutral pronouns more easy to accept by ordinary people.

eyedrop
26th October 2011, 21:49
Actually I partly agree with you. I was kind of "exaggerating" a bit for effect. I think the idea that students are categorically "middle class" is misleading in this day and age. Many students are from working class backgrounds, and some students actually work and study at the same time.

Saying 'some' is dishonest. Last time I saw the stats it was 2/3, not just 'some'.

X5N
27th October 2011, 00:17
I don't like singular they. Spivak pronouns are nice. The ones mentioned in the article just sound odd to me, but nothing against those who use them of course!

Anyways, this is excellent news. Hopefully the successful implementation of such a policy will convince people at other colleges to abandon the "oh noes, you can't have a man and a woman in the same dorm because they'll always have sex" canard.

Queercommie Girl
29th October 2011, 19:53
Saying 'some' is dishonest. Last time I saw the stats it was 2/3, not just 'some'.

It differs widely depending on the country. In China for instance the gap between university students and ordinary workers is wider.

Don't just assume everyone here is American or always refers to the US.

Queercommie Girl
29th October 2011, 19:59
Also, stating "they" is good enough and expecting trans/gender variant people fall in line is nothing but cis privilege.

"They" applies only for genderqueer/genderless people, not MtFs and FtMs.

tir1944
29th October 2011, 20:03
MtFs and FtMs
What's that?:confused:

Queercommie Girl
29th October 2011, 20:06
What's that?:confused:

Male-to-female and Female-to-male trans people, who should be referred to as "she" and "he" respectively.

Jennifer
31st October 2011, 23:04
There are more gender identities than just male and female. Some people identify as not having a gender, or having different genders at different times, being not quite either male or female, or having a completely different gender than the binary, and a bunch of others.

Like me. I use the terms "transmasculine" and "non-binary transguy" for myself. I am more male than female and wish for my appearance to reflect that more than it does currently, but I don't feel fully male and want people close to me to think of me that way. (The terms I use might be used differently by other people, but everyone is equally correct in their usage as long as they are identifying themselves.)

I prefer neutral pronouns, especially "ni", but I'm not too fussed about what anyone calls me. Anything besides "she" and "it" makes me happy, but others will get more upset if you call them by the wrong pronoun. As a general rule, ask them what they prefer.

I hope this helps. :)

Ah, thank you! I guess the use of these pronouns would make sense for someone, like you said, who identify with different genders at different times or outside of male/female entirely. I'd probably just say "they" unless asked otherwise. Usually though, when you use these pronouns in conversation, the person you are speaking of isn't there...so would it matter to use "they" to the third party you are speaking to? :confused:

Danielle Ni Dhighe
1st November 2011, 10:46
"They" applies only for genderqueer/genderless people, not MtFs and FtMs.
I've known individual MtFs and FtMs who preferred gender neutral pronouns as a matter of principle.

W1N5T0N
1st November 2011, 13:07
i wonder what chomsky would say

Queercommie Girl
1st November 2011, 19:27
I've known individual MtFs and FtMs who preferred gender neutral pronouns as a matter of principle.

That is true, but many MtFs and FtMs don't. One is not more valid than the other. And frankly I don't see the point of over-debating exactly what gender-neutral pronoun to use. Just having a gender-neutral pronoun is sufficient in my opinion.

I mean it's strategic, too much consideration over this would make transgender politics even more inaccessible for ordinary working class people. How do you think ordinary coal miners would respond to Marxists who label themselves as "hir"? It's like a form of neologism.

We want to integrate trans politics with socialist politics in general, we don't want to alienate non-trans and non-LGBT people un-necessarily simply through our use of uncommon words.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
2nd November 2011, 08:21
I mean it's strategic, too much consideration over this would make transgender politics even more inaccessible for ordinary working class people.
No argument there, but this board is a forum for the revolutionary left, so discussing the issue here is another matter.


How do you think ordinary coal miners would respond to Marxists who label themselves as "hir"?
I'd be more concerned with how they would respond to someone who labels themselves a Marxist!


We want to integrate trans politics with socialist politics in general, we don't want to alienate non-trans and non-LGBT people un-necessarily simply through our use of uncommon words.
Again, no argument there.

Azraella
2nd November 2011, 16:32
We want to integrate trans politics with socialist politics in general, we don't want to alienate non-trans and non-LGBT people un-necessarily simply through our use of uncommon words.

I agree with this sentiment, however I think Danielle is right about this:



I'd be more concerned with how they would respond to someone who labels themselves a Marxist!

Throw in anarchist, communist, and libertarian socialist too. Speaking as someone who is married to an androgynous democratic socialist it is a pain in the ass to get hir to support radical leftist goals and ideas.

I label myself as an anarchist, and my parents, and coworkers think I'm just some lover of chaos rather than a champion of freedom and equality. Marxism is just as bad, but this might be a result of being trapped in a conservative hell-hole.

eyedrop
3rd November 2011, 08:18
Saying 'some' is dishonest. Last time I saw the stats it was 2/3, not just 'some'.It differs widely depending on the country. In China for instance the gap between university students and ordinary workers is wider.

Don't just assume everyone here is American or always refers to the US.
I you didn't notice I was busting you for throwing out random statistics ('some students work', typical in the US?), without mentioning where they were valid.

I assumed you were extrapolating your own experiences (that some students works) to the whole world.

Not to mention that getting a general student class-analysis that includes China and the West is useless. Universities in China has a different class composition that western ones

Queercommie Girl
3rd November 2011, 13:24
I you didn't notice I was busting you for throwing out random statistics ('some students work', typical in the US?), without mentioning where they were valid.

I assumed you were extrapolating your own experiences (that some students works) to the whole world.

Not to mention that getting a general student class-analysis that includes China and the West is useless. Universities in China has a different class composition that western ones

I don't have the responsibility to provide explicit statistical figures to back up every statement in every post I make here, nor am I going to do such a thing. Sometimes a non-quantitative statement will suffice. But it's true that generally I have a rather internationalist outlook so I don't tend to just focus on one country.

Chinese universities don't have a different class composition compared with the West in any qualitative or institutional sense. Have you ever been to China? The difference is a quantitative one. In fact, back in the Maoist era several decades ago, the same Chinese universities had even more students from a working class or peasant background than universities in the West.

I think you are excessively nitpicking. Most people here don't back up every single post they create with explicit numerical statistics, yet I don't see you criticising any of them. I find this entire conversation with you to be quite useless.

Queercommie Girl
3rd November 2011, 13:26
No argument there, but this board is a forum for the revolutionary left, so discussing the issue here is another matter.


I'd be more concerned with how they would respond to someone who labels themselves a Marxist!


Again, no argument there.

Just out of interest, what do you think about transgender people who wish to become completely male or female? Or do you think somehow it's more valid for trans people to present themselves as "genderqueer" or "gender-neutral"?

Danielle Ni Dhighe
3rd November 2011, 21:30
Just out of interest, what do you think about transgender people who wish to become completely male or female? Or do you think somehow it's more valid for trans people to present themselves as "genderqueer" or "gender-neutral"?
I'm a transwoman who prefers the pronouns she and her. So the answer to the second question would be no, and by extension the answer to the first should be clear, as well.