Occupy protests/DPRK

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/democratic-korea-in-solidarity-with-occupy-movement/#more-6685

Thoughts on this article? Disclaimer: I'm not posting this as some kind of solidarity with the DPRK gesture, just surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

[rundontwalk]

Hard to tell if it's genuine or not. Since, you know, gulags.

[Susurrus]

It's the same way with how the US, Britain etc support riots and protests in the Arab Spring, but it's rubber bullets and tear gas time in their backyards.

[Agent Equality]

This is such bullshit

[Le Socialiste]

The working masses’ struggle against capitalism was staged all at once across the world on Oct. 15 and 16. This was the biggest organized one ever in history of capitalism spanning more than 300 years.

Is it? Is it really? :rolleyes:

I agree with Agent, this reeks of bullshit. The article is putting words in the protester's mouths - words that they haven't even said yet (at least en masse). While the demonstrations are clearly in defiance of capitalism's current state, they have yet to fully reject capitalism as a system. Instead, you're hearing some people (especially amongst the so-called 'leaders' of the movement) say that these demonstrations aren't opposed to capitalism per se, just the way its been handled. Now, I can't say this applies everywhere, but it is fairly prevalent in America (I don't know about other areas of the world). This article is trying to paint a picture that is, at best, present among smaller sections of the wider OWS movement.

[Geiseric]

huh, makes one wonder if that site is like The Onion of leftist politics.

[tir1944]

What's wrong with North Korean masses supporting any movement that's at least (barely,but still) progressive?

[rundontwalk]

What's wrong with North Korean masses supporting any movement that's at least (barely,but still) progressive?
Because it seems to me that that this isn't some grassroots campaign by North Koreans. It's Kim Jong Il looking for a photo op in an attempt to stay relevant.

[Os Cangaceiros]

At first I was all like, aw hells yeah, people in the DPRK are rising up and occupying Pyongyang!

Then I realized that this was just some stupid news report in the DPRK's state media. Reality is so cruel.

[Jose Gracchus]

Who reads The Marxist-Leninist? Its like a time-warp to delusions of the 1930s and the fevered hallucinations of the official Grover Furr Fan Club crowd. The guy who wrote it is a total crank and propagandist. And that's when he's not shilling for openly reactionary governments world-wide, or trying to explain why workers should love the Dengist "market socialist" firepoker being shoved up their ass. I've eaten alphabet soup and taken shits with more content than this blog.

Principles? Nowhere to be seen. And it is not even accurately named. Its just the party-line-source for FRSO Fight Back.

[Per Levy]

What's wrong with North Korean masses supporting any movement that's at least (barely,but still) progressive?

where do the masses of north korea show their support of the occupations? this, pathetic, article is hack work and nothing else. if you read that article you could think revolution is around the corner and the usa is on the brink of a civil war. to come back to the NK masses, i just wish they could occupy pyongyang but that would be crushed by the iron heel of the NK ruling caste.

[tir1944]

If you remember/have that bookmarked,can you give us a link to the post where he explains why workers should love the Dengist "market socialism"?
Thanks.

[Jose Gracchus]

http://marxistleninist.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/a-question-of-state-revolution-china-market-socialism/

There ya go.

[tir1944]

Well that's wrong.

[DaringMehring]

The information about the dead man in San Diego is wrong.

He fell off. There are no signs it was a suicide, much less one in protest of capitalism. The guy was not even known to be affiliated with Occupy.

[eyeheartlenin]

All I can say is, if the right wing, Fox, Beck & Co., get wind of this, it could be the kiss of death for OWS and its offspring. And, yeah, it really does read like dogmatic prose, and, yes, if the North Korean masses (those that have not yet starved to death) were to launch their occupations, that popular movement would, most assuredly, be drowned in blood, so the whole KCNA dispatch is pure, unadulterated BS, as others have pointed out. I remember a statement allegedly from Mao in the 1960's, in solidarity with the civil rights movement in the US (which it described IIRC as the "revolutionary movement of the Negroes") and, as I learned years later, while the PRC regime was issuing that statement, there were still large numbers of people in prison in the "People's" Republic for having expressed their views in the "Hundred Flowers" campaign of May-June, 1957. As others have pointed out, the KCNA dispatch is the same thing.

[A Marxist Historian]

Is it? Is it really? :rolleyes:

I agree with Agent, this reeks of bullshit. The article is putting words in the protester's mouths - words that they haven't even said yet (at least en masse). While the demonstrations are clearly in defiance of capitalism's current state, they have yet to fully reject capitalism as a system. Instead, you're hearing some people (especially amongst the so-called 'leaders' of the movement) say that these demonstrations aren't opposed to capitalism per se, just the way its been handled. Now, I can't say this applies everywhere, but it is fairly prevalent in America (I don't know about other areas of the world). This article is trying to paint a picture that is, at best, present among smaller sections of the wider OWS movement.

Yes, it's true, the leaders of the DPRK have just as many illusions about how radical and anti-capitalist the OWS protests are as your average Revleft poster.

Sad.

-M.H.-

[Jose Gracchus]

Don't you have a demo to be hysterically disrupting

[A Marxist Historian]

Don't you have a demo to be hysterically disrupting

Don't you have better things to do with your time than trolling?

-M.H.-

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Yes, it's true, the leaders of the DPRK have just as many illusions about how radical and anti-capitalist the OWS protests are as your average Revleft poster.

Sad.

-M.H.-

Possibly true but I don't think the DPRK itself is radical or anti-capitalist in any meaningful way. The DPRK does not call for the reunion of Korea on socialist grounds but wants to preserve "two systems".Of course we should strongly oppose US presence in Korea without giving support to either Korean regime.

I don't know how many leftists have illusions in the OWS movement.The Occupy is not revolutionary socialist....yet. It does repressent an important upsurge in the class struggle. Whatever happens to this movement, future historians will probably say the Occupy # movement and Wisconsin represent the beginnings of an open class fightback.

True the people at my local Occupy# are liberal/left Democracy Now types. The movement though is getting enormous local publicity and is being talked about favorably just about everywhere.There is a lot of not just anger but rage out there. When Obamanation's "Secret Committee" begin their massive cuts in social security, Medicare, etc, (the middle of November, as I understand) there will be a shitstorm.I have no doubt of this.

The next few months and years will be very difficult but interesting, I think.

[Jose Gracchus]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry that you think LOL REVLEFTERS R AS DUM AS KIMS LOL is a substantive contribution to this discussion, or community more broadly. In fact, the very statement undermines the idea that substantive contributions aren't wasted on such a group of drooling reformist right-deviationist non-Trotskyist-internationalist whateverthefuck.

In any case, yes even the feeble DPRK state media needs to latch onto the occasional opportunity to legitimize and shit-talk. You'd also have to try a bit harder to convince the content of the Occupy Wallstreet subforum is uncritical "illusions about how radical and anti-capitalist" the OWS protests are, because that's not what I read.

[A Marxist Historian]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry that you think LOL REVLEFTERS R AS DUM AS KIMS LOL is a substantive contribution to this discussion, or community more broadly. In fact, the very statement undermines the idea that substantive contributions aren't wasted on such a group of drooling reformist right-deviationist non-Trotskyist-internationalist whateverthefuck.

In any case, yes even the feeble DPRK state media needs to latch onto the occasional opportunity to legitimize and shit-talk. You'd also have to try a bit harder to convince the content of the Occupy Wallstreet subforum is uncritical "illusions about how radical and anti-capitalist" the OWS protests are, because that's not what I read.

Not all the content, not at all. Certainly not my own contributions.:D

But yes, if you took every single posting in the whole huge subforum and classified them into those who think OWS is the greatest thing since sliced bread and those who think it ain't, Category One gets the majority, or at least the plurality.

Are my contributions wasted here, am I casting pearls before swine, as it says in the Bible. I don't think so. A lot of folk don't care one bit for what I have to say, and you, obviously, are high on that list.

Others feel differently. And there's a lot of folk somewhere in between. Works for me.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Possibly true but I don't think the DPRK itself is radical or anti-capitalist in any meaningful way. The DPRK does not call for the reunion of Korea on socialist grounds but wants to preserve "two systems".Of course we should strongly oppose US presence in Korea without giving support to either Korean regime.

I wouldn't be for supporting the Kim Il Sung dynasty. They are Stalinists. They are particularly unpleasant Stalinist rulers, whereas the Castro brothers in Cuba are relatively nice guy Stalinists comparatively speaking. But they are basically the same.

The particularly unpleasant features of the DPRK are due to its history, the millions of people murdered by the US government during the Korean War, the deadly and murderous economic embargo imposed on North Korea ever since the collapse of the USSR, etc. etc.

It's noteworthy that the usual extreme horror towards the North Korean regime that is a fixture inside and even more outside the left is basically not shared by ... South Koreans. In South Korea, the right hates North Korea like poison, but most leftists and trade unionists have a more complex attitude.

Outright Kim Il Sung fans are rare in South Korea, if for no other reason than that you get thrown in jail for life if you express ideas like that in public. But most South Korean leftists and trade unionists understand that the biggest problem is the US imperialist occupier, not their fellow Koreans north of the DMZ.


I don't know how many leftists have illusions in the OWS movement.The Occupy is not revolutionary socialist....yet. It does repressent an important upsurge in the class struggle. Whatever happens to this movement, future historians will probably say the Occupy # movement and Wisconsin represent the beginnings of an open class fightback.

True the people at my local Occupy# are liberal/left Democracy Now types. The movement though is getting enormous local publicity and is being talked about favorably just about everywhere.There is a lot of not just anger but rage out there. When Obamanation's "Secret Committee" begin their massive cuts in social security, Medicare, etc, (the middle of November, as I understand) there will be a shitstorm.I have no doubt of this.

The next few months and years will be very difficult but interesting, I think.

I do not disagree. Fact remains that illusions in the staying power and left wing character of OWS are very widespread on the American left in general and here on Revleft as well. (I did not mean to say they were universal, if I came off sounding like that that's unfortunate.)

As for the "Secret Committee," we'll see, but I think it'll be deadlocked between Republicans and Democrats, so the compromise fallback Congress came up with this summer, with huge cuts to the military budget and lesser but still ugly cuts to social services, is actually going to happen.

And Obama knows this, which is why he decided to pull out of Iraq, and why he is now praising "Occupy Wall Street" in his speeches.

Obama's line next year is, I think, going to be fund the war in Afghanistan by ... taxing the rich. A clever campaign platform, may well work for him. Perfect for coopting OWS and preventing mass resistance to the cuts he wants, as opposed to the totally insane cuts the Republicans want.

-M.H.-

[tir1944]

They are Stalinists.
No.Just no.
Kim's have,in case you don't know,renounced Mar.-Len. in favor of Juche idea or whatever.

[Crux]

No.Just no.
Kim's have,in case you don't know,renounced Mar.-Len. in favor of Juche idea or whatever.
Yes, a korean national variant of stalinism. Juche is just a natural progression.

[Искра]

I wouldn't say that Juche is Korean national variant of Stalinism. It's mixture of monarchist ideology (with Kim family ruling all the time) with cool military parades in Soviet style.

[Crux]

I wouldn't say that Juche is Korean national variant of Stalinism. It's mixture of monarchist ideology (with Kim family ruling all the time) with cool military parades in Soviet style.
Allright, a regression of stalinism then.

[Ocean Seal]

Guys why isn't it that you appreciate good comedy. This is called an IRL troll. How often do the Western powers accuse Kim of being repressive after their latest adventures assassinating a popular leader in the third world. This is merely just Kim showing that the coin has two sides. This is a good thing. In part because it obviously shows Kim's hypocrisy, and for two because it shows what the Western powers sound like to the rest of the world when the whine on about repression. And by repression I mean repression in other countries done by dictators who wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the Western powers in the first place.

[kurr]

I worry most this will discredit the Occupy movement. A bunch of Stalinist state capitalist hacks running around claiming to be in solidarity with it would only make it easier for an attack.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Aw yeah is this a thread for discussing our love for great juche

[A Marxist Historian]

Yes, a korean national variant of stalinism. Juche is just a natural progression.

Right. What is Stalinism after all? The idea of "socialism in one country." Not precisely Stalin's original idea, but it is the theoretical concept he is associated with, which he fought for vs. Trotsky.

And Zinoviev, a dogmatic Lenin-quoter with few or no original thoughts in his head, but nonetheless Lenin's right hand man for most of the history of the Bolshevik Party. And who knew better than anyone else what "Leninism" was. Indeed he was the one who invented the term.

Certainly that is the very definition of the "Juche" idea.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

I wouldn't say that Juche is Korean national variant of Stalinism. It's mixture of monarchist ideology (with Kim family ruling all the time) with cool military parades in Soviet style.

Well, Stalin in his last years came pretty damn close.

For those with the patience to actually read drek from North Korea, the ideology isn't monarchist, the Kim dynasty was not anointed by God or Confucius. It's that the Kims were the great leaders of the Korean working people vs. Japanese and US imperialism and all that.

Just exactly like Stalin with all that stuff from people like Kaganovich about how he was the greatest genius of all time, the glorious sun warming the Soviet peoples, and on and nauseating on. if anything, not quite as bad.

Stalin didn't go for monarchic succession for one reason and one reason only, that he basically despised his sons. One died in WWII with his father suspecting him (unjustly) of going over to the Germans after he was captured, and the other was a drunken fool, as everyone including Stalin himself knew.

And he was enough of a male chauvinist not to want to leave the country to Svetlana, who he loved but didn't trust--and rightly so, as anyone can tell who reads her book about him. She loved her father--but had him figured out.

The parades in NK ain't a patch on Soviet military parades. Poor imiitations.

-M.H.-

[tir1944]

Well, Stalin in his last years came pretty damn close.
Is that so?



Just exactly like Stalin with all that stuff from people like Kaganovich about how he was the greatest genius of all time, the glorious sun warming the Soviet peoples, and on and nauseating on. if anything, not quite as bad.
I'm confused.Are we talking about what Kaganovich did or are we talking about what Stalin did?



And he was enough of a male chauvinist not to want to leave the country to Svetlana, who he loved but didn't trust
So did he "deprive" her of the "throne" because he was,according to you,a "male chauvinist",or was it because he didn't trust her?

[Geiseric]

Whatever he did is irrelevent, he should never have been in power in the first place...

[Salyut]

The working masses’ struggle against capitalism was staged all at once across the world on Oct. 15 and 16. This was the biggest organized one ever in history of capitalism spanning more than 300 years.

This is a satirical blog...right?