Can We Use The Word Nazi Instead Of Fascist?

[lines]

Can we just please use language properly? Whenever we say fascist we mean nazi. So instead of declaring ourselves anti-fascists can we just call ourselves anti-nazi instead? Calling ourselves anti-fascist makes no sense because there is barely any effort happening in the world to revive fascism. There is on the other hand noticeable efforts being made to revive nazism. Why are we calling ourselves anti-fa? In reality we are anti-na. I have never even heard of a group that wants to revive fascism. The only groups we are ever oppose are the nazi ones, so doesn't that make us anti-nazi? And wouldn't anti-nazi be more accurate?

[rundontwalk]

There are a lot of fascist organizations in Eastern Europe at the moment. And, iirc, Hitler didn't exactly like Slavs.

[Princess Luna]

Using Nazi instead of fascist would exclude non-white groups like the JDL and Nation of Islam, and even some white supremeist groups (like the KKK) who don't fit the definition of Nazi or to be more specific Neo-Nazi

[Sasha]

should we call ourself anti-neo-liberal since except some deranged libertards no one wants to revive 100% free market capitalism? no we are anti-capitalists, we are against all forms of fascism and its close brothers and that includes (neo-)nazism, neo-fascism, proto-fascism, strasserism, extreme-right populism, theocracism etc etc.
and you are very wrong about that no one wants to revive more traditional fascism; here in the netherlands and flanders neo-fascist groups like voorpost have far more symphatisers than the neo-nazi ones, its just that the nazi's are way more violent and visible. not to mention that some groups are a combination of traditional fascism and neo-nazism (the solidaristische N-SA from flanders for example) and that the biggest fascist threat on this moment here is the proto-fascist PVV from geert wilders (who are even in government here) who are everything but neo-nazi, they are in fact virulently philo-semetic pro-israel etc.

[ComradeMan]

Can we just please use language properly? Whenever we say fascist we mean nazi. So instead of declaring ourselves anti-fascists can we just call ourselves anti-nazi instead? Calling ourselves anti-fascist makes no sense because there is barely any effort happening in the world to revive fascism. There is on the other hand noticeable efforts being made to revive nazism. Why are we calling ourselves anti-fa? In reality we are anti-na. I have never even heard of a group that wants to revive fascism. The only groups we are ever oppose are the nazi ones, so doesn't that make us anti-nazi? And wouldn't anti-nazi be more accurate?

I understand your point even though I disagree. I do agree that the words facist and nazi are used a lot without real consideration of their implications and this is not necessarily a sensible approach.

Whilst it is true that fascism is not synonymous with nazism, nazism does spring from fascism. Whilst not all fascists would be nazis, I think it's safe to say most nazis would be fascists- call it fascist+ , if you like. Therefore by being, rightfully, against fascism, you are by default anti-nazi- if you see what I mean?

[thefinalmarch]

Can we just please use language properly? Whenever we say fascist we mean nazi.
Mussolini's Italy was not a Nazi state, and neither was Franco's Spain.


So instead of declaring ourselves anti-fascists can we just call ourselves anti-nazi instead? Calling ourselves anti-fascist makes no sense because there is barely any effort happening in the world to revive fascism. There is on the other hand noticeable efforts being made to revive nazism. Why are we calling ourselves anti-fa? In reality we are anti-na. I have never even heard of a group that wants to revive fascism. The only groups we are ever oppose are the nazi ones, so doesn't that make us anti-nazi? And wouldn't anti-nazi be more accurate?
National Socialism is a kind of fascist ideology -- along with "National Syndicalism" in Italy and "Falangism" in Spain.

[Nox]

Fascist itself is a very vague term that can mean a number of things, and nazi is something entirely different.

For example, only some fascists are National Socialists, but all National Socialists are fascists.

[graymouser]

Using Nazi instead of fascist would exclude non-white groups like the JDL and Nation of Islam, and even some white supremeist groups (like the KKK) who don't fit the definition of Nazi or to be more specific Neo-Nazi
Nation of Islam is not a fascist group, and calling it one is making the whole concept of antifascism a mockery. In the modern USA fascism is a white thing - trying to call organizations of people of color fascist indicates that there is a LOT that you do not grasp.

[Devrim]

Can we just please use language properly? Whenever we say fascist we mean nazi.

In our country there are no 'Nazis', or 'Neo-Nazis' of any sort. Yet there are powerful fascist parties.

This is the HQ of the biggest one. It is near my house:

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1290032911311&id=08d49f6c26b78fa156342fec0b0b8246

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1334599746594&id=7b97ecc44baae00721dcfe9ade957592

Devrim

[Tim Cornelis]

Nation of Islam is not a fascist group, and calling it one is making the whole concept of antifascism a mockery. In the modern USA fascism is a white thing - trying to call organizations of people of color fascist indicates that there is a LOT that you do not grasp.

Nation of Islam does seem quite fascist to me, brah. Fascism does not equal white supremacism.

[Maslo]

Nation of Islam is not a fascist group, and calling it one is making the whole concept of antifascism a mockery. In the modern USA fascism is a white thing - trying to call organizations of people of color fascist indicates that there is a LOT that you do not grasp.

Islamic fascism is also a form of fascism, just swap christianity with islam, and white supremacism with black/brown supremacism.
There is no reason why colored people cannot also hold fascist opinions. In fact, islamofascist opinions (theocracy is a form of fascism) are quite widespread in some countries with people of color:
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7328/2010muslim0113.png

[thefinalmarch]

theocracy is a form of fascism
Now you're just throwing random terms and phrases around without even the slightest knowledge of their meanings.

You're a fucking asshat.

P.S. Did you seriously just say "Islamofascist"?

[RGacky3]

Fascism is a word that has been totally devoid of meaning and is used for everything.

The classical word fascism has always meant, ultra-nationalism mixed with corporatism. But people nowerdays just use it for anyone they don't like.

Theocracy is not fascism ....

[Maslo]

Now you're just throwing random terms and phrases around without even the slightest knowledge of their meanings.

You're a fucking asshat.

P.S. Did you seriously just say "Islamofascist"?

Is there some crucial difference between radical islamist (political islam) ideal of society and clerical-fascist ideal of society? I believe the ideologies are quite similar in nature (anti-progressivism/anti-modernism, anti-secularism, anti-semitism, supremacism, against basic human rights, women and LGBT rights, violent means to achieve the desired ends, both condemn humanism and atheism and so called "degeneration"..).
Altrough the historical genesis of these ideologies is of course different, their actual content so very similar it warrants the use of term "islamofascism" IMHO. The parallels are too striking to be ignored.

I know the term has been heavily misused by american right-wing political propaganda, but that does not make it void.

[tir1944]

National socialism IS fascism.
However people here should really check the definition of the word as to avoid using in improperly.

[ZeroNowhere]

It doesn't sound as impressive, presumably. Also, this isn't the 1930s.

[PhoenixAsh]

Can we just please use language properly? Whenever we say fascist we mean nazi. So instead of declaring ourselves anti-fascists can we just call ourselves anti-nazi instead? Calling ourselves anti-fascist makes no sense because there is barely any effort happening in the world to revive fascism. There is on the other hand noticeable efforts being made to revive nazism. Why are we calling ourselves anti-fa? In reality we are anti-na. I have never even heard of a group that wants to revive fascism. The only groups we are ever oppose are the nazi ones, so doesn't that make us anti-nazi? And wouldn't anti-nazi be more accurate?

I do not agree wityh this assessment.

Nazism is a very specific brand of fascism which can, and often has, been at odds with "classical" fascism because of some very important ideological differences. The two terms are not always mutially exclusive or interchangeable.

I also do not agree that there is no revival of fascism. I think that aside from the fact that there is undoubtedly a revival going on of Neo-Nazi movements...I think the far worse and pressing danger comes from classical fascism which is openly and subtilly creeping its way into modern political mainstream thoughts and policies....even within the more traditional parties.

Not to mention the fact that there are strong and growing fascist groups, parties and induviduals, not neo-nazi groups, that are currently slowely gaining more and more votes in parliaments all over the world.

[Princess Luna]

Nation of Islam is not a fascist group, and calling it one is making the whole concept of antifascism a mockery. In the modern USA fascism is a white thing - trying to call organizations of people of color fascist indicates that there is a LOT that you do not grasp.
How is the Nation of Islam not fascist, they are basically a mirror image of the Christian Identity Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity), they take a existing religion and twist and pervert it to support a message racial superiority. Not to mention in the 1960's while millions of African Americans were risking their lives to protest segregation, the NoI was allied with the American Nazi Party in support of segregation and Louis Farrakhan is on record as saying

Hitler was a great man, he wasn't a black man, but he was a great man and he did what he had to do for Germany

[Book O'Dead]

There is a movement of sorts to revive fascism and to reabilitate the memory of its despicable dead leaders. Its most recent form comes as Holocaust denial. People like pseudo-historian David Irving, among others, are busy attempting to pass off their deceptive revisionism of Nazi history as real stuff. The Institute for Historical Something-or-Other (that's what I call them) even have a web page whereing they couple their anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism in articles, etc.

BTW, although in my opinion anti-Zionism is or can be a legitimate political viewpoint, open for debate among honest people with differing opinions, it is too often co-opted by people like David Duke in an attempt to camouflage (SP?) their Jew-hating ideologies.

I strongly recommend Deborah Lipstadt's book "Denying the Holocaust", a concise study of the history of Holocaust denial, its methods and an analysis of the groups and individuals involved in this despicable effort:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Lipstadt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_Holocaust

Fascism (or Nazism; take your pick) may be moribund in most civilized places, but it is still a latent threat and should be treated as such. To want to invent a distiction between the ideology of Fascism and its practical application (Nazism) is, in my opinion, a very suspect thing to do.

[Book O'Dead]

How is the Nation of Islam not fascist, they are basically a mirror image of the Christian Identity Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity), they take a existing religion and twist and pervert it to support a message racial superiority. Not to mention in the 1960's while millions of African Americans were risking their lives to protest segregation, the NoI was allied with the American Nazi Party in support of segregation and Louis Farrakhan is on record as saying

I agree that the so-called Nation of Islam is not Fascist. However, their leadership is clearly anti-Semitic. For me, that alone is enough to wish a pox upon their house.

[Drosophila]

Mussolini founded fascism, but he wasn't a Nazi.

[alegab]

I agree that the so-called Nation of Islam is not Fascist. However, their leadership is clearly anti-Semitic. For me, that alone is enough to wish a pox upon their house.
They are an anti-white, black supremacist, holocaust denying, neo-nazi supported and supporting, extremely conspiracist and full of pseudoscience organization with a paramilitary wing (weird as they are supposedly anti-weapons), and suspected for Malcolm X's murder

[durhamleft]

I understand your point even though I disagree. I do agree that the words facist and nazi are used a lot without real consideration of their implications and this is not necessarily a sensible approach.

Whilst it is true that fascism is not synonymous with nazism, nazism does spring from fascism. Whilst not all fascists would be nazis, I think it's safe to say most nazis would be fascists- call it fascist+ , if you like. Therefore by being, rightfully, against fascism, you are by default anti-nazi- if you see what I mean?

NO, NO, NO!!!

I've been through this with people so many times.

Fascism- not built upon the belief of eugenics- while it is built on ultra-nationalism that was the belief that Italy should return to the great heights it previously had achieved. Mussolini for example had a jewish mistress + in early 30s ridiculed hitler's antisemitism.

Nazism- belief in the complete ethnic superiority of ayrans, over jews, gypsies, serbs etc. belief in eugenics that never present in fascism.

Fascism- belief in the '3rd way'- eg corporatism. no, that does not mean the 'corporatism' we see in the US, but a belief that the fascist party could mediate between the two extremes of capitalism and communism.

Nazism- pretty left wing in many aspects (keynesian left)- hitler had lots of schemes to try and get people into work etc including massive increase in government jobs etc.

Fascism- uber-conservative, backed very much by institutions eg. church and king.

Nazism much more revolutionary, and in many ways a more working class movement in early years than fascism ever was.

To conclude- Bristish National Party = NAZI, not fascist.

Vast majority of racists = not nazi or fascist.

Islamic theocracies = racist and oppressive but neither fascist nor nazi.

etc etc etc.


You cannot throw these terms around willy nilly as you make them lose meaning. People calling the tea party etc fascist just are wrong. of course theyre dickheads but you cannot, cannot make these wild claims.

Nazism is not "fascism+", they are completely different ideologies.

[ComradeMan]

Disagree.... there are also similarities, I never said they were exactly the same.

[m-l Power]

In principle, we can´t. Both terms are clearly defined. "nazi" is properly an adjetive wicth designates german nationalism. On the contrary, "fascist" is a term that refers to a world and international system of opression. The fascism represents the opression of the bourgeois class in the age of the imperialism.

[durhamleft]

Disagree.... there are also similarities, I never said they were exactly the same.

Yes, there are similarities in the same way there are similarities between socialism and nazism... however they are not the same concepts and arent interchangeable.

I'd be inclined to go so far as to say that fascism and nazism only occurred in prewwII/ wwII italy and germany retrospectively and franco's spain and pinochet's chile while brutal oppressive regimes were not fascist because fascist relies on corporatism. . .

so yes, stop calling people fucking fascists. call them racists, pigs, idiots, etc but fascists is 95% of the time incorrect.

[durhamleft]

They are an anti-white, black supremacist, holocaust denying, neo-nazi supported and supporting, extremely conspiracist and full of pseudoscience organization with a paramilitary wing (weird as they are supposedly anti-weapons), and suspected for Malcolm X's murder

which has nothing to do with fascism.

[durhamleft]

In principle, we can´t. Both terms are clearly defined. "nazi" is properly an adjetive wicth designates german nationalism. On the contrary, "fascist" is a term that refers to a world and international system of opression. The fascism represents the opression of the bourgeois class in the age of the imperialism.

No, No, No!

Fascism is not just a term you use to tell people they're naughty. It involves so so so much more including a very particular social and economic policy.

[ComradeMan]

I'd be inclined to go so far as to say that fascism and nazism only occurred in prewwII/ wwII italy and germany retrospectively and franco's spain and pinochet's chile while brutal oppressive regimes were not fascist because fascist relies on corporatism. . ..

Italian fascism was corporatist and it is true that Mussolini said that the fascist state is either corporatist or it is not fascist, but corporatism was not "all" that fascism was about either and corporatism is by no means exclusive to fascism. I think you are focusing too much on one aspect of fascism to be honest and deciding that that is the "acid test". In the 1920 NSDAP programme of the Nazi party in Germany there was also the corporatism but it was later abandoned- circumstances dictate ideology too. Corporatist principles were found in pre-war Nazi Germany but to a lesser degree than in Italy but they were also found in another places such as pre-anschluss Austira, Ireland, Greece, Romania and were of course applied in Vichy France. Corporatism was very strong in both South and South East Europe and Latin America.

Both nazism and fascism were/are totalitarian, anti-democratic, statist and militaristic. Whilst it is true that Italian Fascism did not have the strong racial ideology of the German Nazism do not be fooled to think there weren't racist currents either. Nazism just took, in my opinion, existing "racism", "science" and combined them to fascism's absolute dedication to the "cult of the state"-tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato"- i.e. "everything within the state, nothing outside the state and nothing against the state."

[durhamleft]

Italian fascism was corporatist and it is true that Mussolini said that the fasicst state is either corporatist or it is not fascist, but corporatism was not "all" that fascism was about either and corporatism is by no means exclusive to fascism. I think you are focusing too much on one aspect of fascism to be honest and deciding that that is the "acid test". In the 1920 NSDAP programme of the Nazi party in Germany there was also the corporatism but it was later abandoned- circumstances dictate ideology too. Corporatist principles were found in pre-war Nazi Germany but to a lesser degree than in Italy but they were also found in another places such as pre-anschluss Austira, Ireland, Greece, Romania and were of course applied in Vichy France. Corporatism was very strong in both South and South East Europe and Latin America.

Both nazism and fascism were/are totalitarian, anti-democratic, statist and militaristic. Whilst it is true that Italian Fascism did not have the strong racial ideology of the German Nazism do not be fooled to think there weren't racist currents either. Nazism just took, in my opinion, existing "racism", "science" and combined them to fascism's absolute dedication to the "cult of the state"-tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato"- i.e. "everything within the state, nothing outside the state and nothing against the state."


I agree entirely that fascism is racist- any form of ultra-nationalism is likely to lead towards racism. What I disagree about is the idea of some that fascism is somehow the same as nazism, when it simply isn't. In terms of racial policy, a fascist govt. would never have come up with a 'final solution'- i'd be inclined to suggest fascism was only racist in order to 'scapegoat' someone- whereas with nazism it was much more of an ideological belief...

and re. corporatism. I think in many ways it was the defining feature of fascism. as stalinism was in many ways as oppressive etc. what made fascism fascism was it's economic outlook - which was fundamental to fascism.

[m-l Power]

I said the fascist is the form that monopoly bourgeoisie´s opression. This kind of domination is much more than a "social" and "economy" question, as you say. It´s and gear, a conjunction of economy, political, military and ideology opression, and the support of this.

[ComradeMan]

I agree entirely that fascism is racist- any form of ultra-nationalism is likely to lead towards racism. What I disagree about is the idea of some that fascism is somehow the same as nazism, when it simply isn't. In terms of racial policy, a fascist govt. would never have come up with a 'final solution'- i'd be inclined to suggest fascism was only racist in order to 'scapegoat' someone- whereas with nazism it was much more of an ideological belief...

and re. corporatism. I think in many ways it was the defining feature of fascism. as stalinism was in many ways as oppressive etc. what made fascism fascism was it's economic outlook - which was fundamental to fascism.

I wouldn't say that fascism is automatically racist, but yeah- extreme nationalism is likely to lead to a form of racism.

I have discussed this before here, how fascism and nazism have differences and similarities- but remember too, that the people who claim to be fascists and nazis today are not necessarily deriving all of their "ideas" from those of the past either.

[Rottenfruit]

Nation of Islam is not a fascist group, and calling it one is making the whole concept of antifascism a mockery. In the modern USA fascism is a white thing - trying to call organizations of people of color fascist indicates that there is a LOT that you do not grasp.

Nation of Islam is antisemitic and racist as hell
Jdl are kahanists which is a version of judaism that support's abolishing democracy in Israel replacing it with theocracy and expell all non jews from Israel

What does that not sound a little racist?

[kid communist]

Mussolini wasn't a Nazi.Neither is Tojo,or Rick Perry.You can be a fascist but not be a Nazi.