KKE's explanation of their violence [Archive]

Manic Impressive

22nd October 2011, 09:05

I would like to discuss and analyse the response of the KKE to the violence on Thursday. The arguments over whether PAME were justified in blocking the anarchists and other workers from approaching parliament is getting us nowhere. So instead of carrying on the tit for tat insults from the other two threads perhaps we could focus on the implications of the KKE response.
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-10-21-murderous-attack-info

It seems to me that the KKE response was very unhelpful to the situation by painting the anarchists as agents of the state, murderers, fascists and all round evil people. This seems to only serve the purpose of inciting more violence something which they claim to have wanted to avoid.

Certain international bourgeois media sought to present the aforementioned incidents as a conflict between two ideological-political currents inside the people’s movement. This approach has nothing to do with reality since in Greece it is well-known that these groups which appear under the cover of the black colour, the hood, “anarchism” are organized and staffed by the forces of the bourgeois system and include everything from organized hooligans of football teams, to hired thugs from night clubs, members of neo-Nazi organizations and forces of security services. There is a lot of evidence from the recent past (photographs and videos) that show the relations of these groups with the mechanisms of the system. They are murderous groups which serve the bourgeois system and have no relation with the people’s movement. They are unleashed by the system itself in order to organize provocations (like the burning of the bank on 5/5/2010 where three employees died) and provide a pretext to the security forces so as to use the equipment they possess in order to disperse the mass people’s demonstrations.
Language like this seems to be laying the groundwork for further political suppression if they actually managed to gain control of the state. It would not be too hard to imagine purges against anarchists and any other political opponents if this is the way the KKE feels about socialists.

Thoughts?

Kornilios Sunshine

22nd October 2011, 09:07

Don't start another thread,instead post this here
http://www.revleft.com/vb/kkes-actions-october-t163088/index.html

Manic Impressive

22nd October 2011, 09:09

Actually I'd like this thread to be about a specific subject, the KKE response. As I've already explained the current threads are not suitable for that purpose.

Искра

22nd October 2011, 09:19

I'm sorry, but I don't see a point of discussing this. This is classical predictable answer in good ol' Stalinist rethoric - who's not with us is a fascist. This discussion will soon become troll's valley.

Manic Impressive

22nd October 2011, 09:26

I'm sorry, but I don't see a point of discussing this. This is classical predictable answer in good ol' Stalinist rethoric - who's not with us is a fascist.
And you don't think it's worth exposing this and talking about it?

This discussion will soon become troll's valley.
Like the other thread isn't?

Kornilios Sunshine

22nd October 2011, 09:31

Oh and what "Ultra-Left Scum" think is

Someone tells his honest opinion about a subject= He is trolling.

Well done,guys,well done.

Delenda Carthago

22nd October 2011, 09:37

Искра

22nd October 2011, 10:08

And you don't think it's worth exposing this and talking about it?
It is, but most of people will get the point after they read the statemant. Others, will try to defend it at all costs... and here we go.

RedSide

22nd October 2011, 11:56

KKE rhetoric is boring tbh and I didn't like their response during Thursday. Everyone from KKE that had the chance to talk to the media (or this announcement) was subpar. Accusing everyone is wrong though some things mentioned by them are true. I was really disappointed when Papariga decided to talk with the "journalist" scum Makis Triantafylopoulos.

I think we have to wait a few days, and see what will be the reaction of KKE. Atm there is an escalation by anachists attacking kne members in universities, or burning three KKE offices here in Thessaloniki.

FSL

22nd October 2011, 13:56

It seems to me that the KKE response was very unhelpful to the situation by painting the anarchists as agents of the state, murderers, fascists and all round evil people.

When in reality they're part of the workers' movement and one might say the revolutions' vanguard. Each and everyone of them is worth a thousand ordinary workers thus giving them the right to do as they please at all times.

Won't hurt if I post it here too.

Removed by Blackscare.

Blackscare

22nd October 2011, 14:04

When in reality they're part of the workers' movement and one might say the revolutions' vanguard. Each and everyone of them is worth a thousand ordinary workers thus giving them the right to do as they please at all times.

Won't hurt if I post it here too.
This is a warning for spam posting. Don't post the same exact things across multiple threads, it clutters things up. The OP explicitly said she/he wanted this to be a separate discussion.

Susurrus

22nd October 2011, 14:07

"anarcho-fascist groups" Are they even fucking serious? They're pulling their insults(and their mindset) from the 1940s. I wonder how long until they start quoting back-issues of Pravda for evidence.

khad

22nd October 2011, 14:10

"anarcho-fascist groups" Are they even fucking serious? They're pulling their insults(and their mindset) from the 1940s.
It is a fact that nationalist groups did participate in the riot. You can clearly see Greek national flags being waved in the ranks of the "anarchists."

Whether that fact is relevant or not in justifying or explaining the confrontation that day is another matter altogether.

Manic Impressive

22nd October 2011, 14:15

When in reality they're part of the workers' movement and one might say the revolutions' vanguard. Each and everyone of them is worth a thousand ordinary workers thus giving them the right to do as they please at all times.
I genuinely had no idea Marxist-Leninists felt that way about workers.

I would put it to you that it would be in the interests of the KKE to attempt to defuse the situation by admitting that violence was a mistake. Even if they did not admit any fault on their part, they could have tried to prevent further violence from occurring. But instead they seem to be encouraging violence against other groups, surely this could hurt them in the long run?

FSL

22nd October 2011, 14:17

This is a warning for spam posting. Don't post the same exact things across multiple threads, it clutters things up. The OP explicitly said she/he wanted this to be a separate discussion.

It *shows* that the supposed KKE's violence was an answer to attacks, attacks by the same few hundred people that feel it is their duty to ravage any demonstration, it was an answer by PAME which is a coalition of unions that organized the strike and an answer that had everyone's backing.

Don't you think it's a little bit relevant when everyone's throwing titles that amount to no less than propaganda and accusations pulled right out their ass?
Posting something that is actually helpful and gives insight to the minds of thousands people who were on the spot (not "hooded youth", workers) in two different threads constitutes spamming?
But "KKE's violence", "KKE's cooperation with the police" etc being thrown around everywhere is what, honest reporting?

Are you sure you're being objective?

ModelHomeInvasion

22nd October 2011, 14:19

Quoting myself from the other thread:

I love how the Anarchists and the Red liberals here are so quick to assume from afar that the KKE were "defending the Greek parliament from thousands of revolutionary workers". In a common yet pathetic twist, they become exactly what it is they accuse the KKE of being - "defenders of the ruling class".

We (those of us who live outside of Greece) are in absolutely no position to condemn nor praise the KKE for the violence that erupted the other day. The incident that many of you are so quick to provide an unwanted, uninformed opinion of was not large enough (and not documented well enough) to provide Us, the international community, with any real clarity (unfortunately this is the case for so many other examples as well).

Susurrus

22nd October 2011, 14:22

Manic Impressive

22nd October 2011, 14:23

FSL

22nd October 2011, 14:24

I genuinely had no idea Marxist-Leninists felt that way about workers.

I would put it to you that it would be in the interests of the KKE to attempt to defuse the situation by admitting that violence was a mistake. Even if they did not admit any fault on their part, they could have tried to prevent further violence from occurring. But instead they seem to be encouraging violence against other groups, surely this could hurt them in the long run?

Violence will come because that is the choise of the rulling class, which is aiming to terrorize workers by using hooded thugs.
You can accept that and "step aside" or not accept that and fight back.

There have been half a dozen attacks in party offices, during the past two nights, communist posters were torn apart in a number of universities and a member of the Communist Youth (in its CC) had threatening slogans written outside his house.

There is nothing to "avoid" here.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 14:27

Ravachol

22nd October 2011, 14:28

It is a fact that nationalist groups did participate in the riot. You can clearly see Greek national flags being waved in the ranks of the "anarchists."

Whether that fact is relevant or not in justifying or explaining the confrontation that day is another matter altogether.

For your information, Greek flags, nationalist rethoric and playing the blame-game on 'dark foreign forces' during the December 2008 riots is all part of the KKE's game as well. In fact, the KKE often has borderline nationalist rethoric and positions so don't get that shit started.

Unless you have tangible proof in the form of photographs and identities that the bulk of the 'anarchists' were actually fascists you're pulling shit out of your arse. In fact, it's just as easy for me to claim right here that the KKE is, in fact, financed by the CIA and Troika in order to police the Greek struggle so that it won't escalate into a revolutionary situation! We can all go throwing around random claims here.

http://cowidget.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/large_610x456_scaled/photos/150333.jpg

So let's leave that shit out ok.

FSL

22nd October 2011, 14:41

For your information, Greek flags, nationalist rethoric and playing the blame-game on 'dark foreign forces' during the December 2008 riots is all part of the KKE's game as well. In fact, the KKE often has borderline nationalist rethoric and positions so don't get that shit started.
There are some greek flags in our protests, there are also immigrant workers who seem to mean less to you since you won't comment on them but on the flags.

The rest is of course useless propaganda, the kind that gets spammed so often here and always manages to stay around.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 14:41

I would like to discuss and analyse the response of the KKE to the violence on Thursday. The arguments over whether PAME were justified in blocking the anarchists and other workers from approaching parliament is getting us nowhere. So instead of carrying on the tit for tat insults from the other two threads perhaps we could focus on the implications of the KKE response.
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-10-21-murderous-attack-info

It seems to me that the KKE response was very unhelpful to the situation by painting the anarchists as agents of the state, murderers, fascists and all round evil people. This seems to only serve the purpose of inciting more violence something which they claim to have wanted to avoid.
Language like this seems to be laying the groundwork for further political suppression if they actually managed to gain control of the state. It would not be too hard to imagine purges against anarchists and any other political opponents if this is the way the KKE feels about socialists.

Thoughts?

Good initiative.

What KKE/PAME paints as anarchists is actually a very diverse group. The first major incident took place with the "Don't pay movement". Smaller skirmishes were with other groups including small pockets of anarchists and left-communists. And no doubt in the later "battles" there were nationalists too.

To paint this purely as a sort of ideological battle between the forces of evil rabble and the "pure" KKE is offcourse pure propaganda of the most obvious level. It rejects the fact that many groups were initially blocked...not only in the square but also in the side streets.

Something which almost everybody agrees on btw and wich has by now been reported. That in those blockking attempts violence was used by PAME/KKE on more than one occasion is also rejected and glossed over. But the main importance is that this blocking attempt and the monopolisation of the square was the cause of the attacks on PAME/KKE and not, like PAME/KKE make it appear that the demo was the intended target.

The implication of this response by KKE is to paint themselves as the victims and reject their own role in creatig and escalating the situation.

Now nobody denies the right of a block to defend itself against an attack on that block. But the situation becomes very different when in a general strike one block tries to exclude others, imposes their will on others and basically refuses others the chance to participate or blocks them access to targets or refuses them passage.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 14:51

It *shows* that the supposed KKE's violence was an answer to attacks, attacks by the same few hundred people that feel it is their duty to ravage any demonstration, it was an answer by PAME which is a coalition of unions that organized the strike and an answer that had everyone's backing.

Don't you think it's a little bit relevant when everyone's throwing titles that amount to no less than propaganda and accusations pulled right out their ass?
Posting something that is actually helpful and gives insight to the minds of thousands people who were on the spot (not "hooded youth", workers) in two different threads constitutes spamming?
But "KKE's violence", "KKE's cooperation with the police" etc being thrown around everywhere is what, honest reporting?

Are you sure you're being objective?

Well..I am definately very objective when I wanted an answer for the fact that KKE/PAME let police move through their ranks and handed over people to the cops and were moved from the square under police protection.
All of which have been widely reported, not only by the burgeoisie media by by other groups at the spot, revolutionary press etc.

The answer I got was: didn't happen, those wre police agitators etc.

Those answers simply will not do. Especially given the fact that we can all observe the attittude of PAME/KKE to aybody who does not belong to their ranks and their wuite obvious tendency to label everybody who does not agree with them as police collaborators.

This is once again illustrated by the attitude against workers who do not align with PAME/KKE.

Not does it acknowledge the fact that PAME/KKE blocked and refused participtation of passage to a wide variety of groups in the side streets, not on gthe square, but on the side streets. Something which also was reported.

It also ignores the fact that the major skrimish was actually started by the blockage of the don't pay movement when they were refused passage and subsequent scuffles broke out and they called for help form other groups.

All in all I say that the PAME/KKE response in refusing to acknowledge all these facts that have been widely reported and instead solely try to paint this as an evil attack on a legitimate demonstration by no less than fascists police agitators is extremely disappointing.

FSL

22nd October 2011, 15:10

Those were images of the do not pay movement.

Within which various people were united in their disdain for workers.
Another example on why every bloc should be organized.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 15:13

Violence will come because that is the choise of the rulling class, which is aiming to terrorize workers by using hooded thugs.
You can accept that and "step aside" or not accept that and fight back.

There have been half a dozen attacks in party offices, during the past two nights, communist posters were torn apart in a number of universities and member of the Communist Youth (in its CC) had threatening slogans written outside his house.

There is nothing to "avoid" here.

Yes...you reap what you sow is very appropriate it seems.

What PAME/KKE did in refusing to block and monoplize was simply creating a wig between the different movements and instead of focussing on the goa they focussed on sectarian ideology enforcement.

Their absolute refusal to allow any deviation from their party line and rejecting, and continuing to reject, the fact that they do not represent all the workers and that there is in fact a huge diversity of tactics and opinions within the revolutionary ranks have put them at the side of the burgeoisie and made them an extreme liability.

We can talk about whether the KKE were justified or not in the other thread although I think people's minds are already made up and won't be changed. Instead of proportioning blame I'd prefer to talk about the aftermath, the reaction and the how this will effect the movement as a whole.

What happened is that PAME/KKE have shown that they will actvely try to dominate and enfoce their wills on any movement opposing capitalism and will reject to work with, cooperate and even violently attack any revolutionary group which does not agree with their politics or tactics at the expense of the larger goal to ensure their dominion.

This will haved huge repercussions fo any small previously existing chance of a unified movement against capitalism. No matter what the arguments brought foreward by PAME/KKE are...the actions they took in blocking protesters from the square and allowing them passage (regardless for a moment of what happened) is simply a signal that there can be no cooperation with PAME/KKE.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 15:19

Within which various people were united in their disdain for workers.
Another example on why every bloc should be organized.

Yeah I don't think PAME/KKE has no right to speak about "disdain" when they seem to always distinguish in value and worth between workers in their ranks and outside their ranks. Especialy when they have also put that in effect by blocking others from access or passage after they tried to monopolise a demo at the expense of others.

But you have to admit....regardless of how you think of the events, the rethorics in brushing aside and generalising thousands of people who opposed PAME/KKE as a singular entity is nonsensical.

I do not disagree with your last line though...

FSL

22nd October 2011, 15:21

Yes...you reap what you sow is very appropriate it seems.

What PAME/KKE did in refusing to block and monoplize was simply creating a wig between the different movements and instead of focussing on the goa they focussed on sectarian ideology enforcement.

Their absolute refusal to allow any deviation from their party line and rejecting, and continuing to reject, the fact that they do not represent all the workers and that there is in fact a huge diversity of tactics and opinions within the revolutionary ranks have put them at the side of the burgeoisie and made them an extreme liability.

What happened is that PAME/KKE have shown that they will actvely try to dominate and enfoce their wills on any movement opposing capitalism and will reject to work with, cooperate and even violently attack any revolutionary group which does not agree with their politics or tactics at the expense of the larger goal to ensure their dominion.

This will haved huge repercussions fo any small previously existing chance of a unified movement against capitalism. No matter what the arguments brought foreward by PAME/KKE are...the actions they took in blocking protesters from the square and allowing them passage (regardless for a moment of what happened) is simply a signal that there can be no cooperation with PAME/KKE.
Nice to see you supporting what are basically acts of terrorism against the communist party.

It just makes clear what I've been saying, that "rioters" are no comrades of mine. This is neither a "disagreement within the left" nor a "sectarian fight".
This is class war against the state and its conscious or naive supporters. Including those who attempt to burn the workers because it is their job or because they're just unable to realize what they're doing.

Sure "anarchists" might attack some party offices when it's dark and we'll probably see them, hooded and armed with molotovs, in the next protests as well.
But there will also be workers there who can show their faces and aren't afraid to fight back.

FSL

22nd October 2011, 15:23

Yeah I don't think PAME/KKE has no right to speak about "disdain" when they seem to always distinguish in value and worth between workers in their ranks and outside their ranks. Especialy when they have also put that in effect by blocking others from access or passage after they tried to monopolise a demo at the expense of others.

But you have to admit....regardless of how you think of the events, the rethorics in brushing aside and generalising thousands of people who opposed PAME/KKE as a singular entity is nonsensical.

I do not disagree with your last line though...

They were not thousands and I'll "admit" that the rhetoric was as fitting as it could be.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 15:48

Nice to see you supporting what are basically acts of terrorism against the communist party.

I do not think we are talking about a communist party anymore. If that is what you are suggesting....but yes...I support correctional actions against the policies which KKE/PAME showed during the 20th in monopolising an event and blocking others.

PAME/KKE showed no regards for others...why should the not be awarded the same disregard?

It just makes clear what I've been saying, that "rioters" are no comrades of mine. This is neither a "disagreement within the left" nor a "sectarian fight".

Well..to be fair and honest. PAME/KKE were the ones not defending themselves but actively excluding and blokcing others.

You can differ of opionion on if they were justified or not...fact remains...their actions have branded them traitors in the eyes of many groups and have alianated other groups from them. It is in fact those actions that made them targets and that put them in a position in which they needed to defend themselves in the first place.

It is kind of like when you put your fingers in the power outlet...you can blame electricity for shocking you....but in the end of the day...it was you who stuck your fingers in.

This is class war against the state and its conscious or naive supporters. Including those who attempt to burn the workers because it is their job or because they're just unable to realize what they're doing.

I have seen very little to support the claim that KKE/PAME is actively engaging in class warfare. So far all I have seen from KKE/PAME is peaceful demonstrations and preventing others from using their tactics and taking their actions.

PAME/KKE is trying very hard to postpone the class war untill they are strong enough to entirely dominate it. Untill then it seems they simply want to remain waving flags and shouting slogans and preventing others from actually taking action.

Sure "anarchists" might attack some party offices when it's dark and we'll probably see them, hooded and armed with molotovs, in the next protests as well.
But there will also be workers there who can show their faces and aren't afraid to fight back.

I think in the end any revolution by PAME/KKE will simply follow the road to state capitalism, repression, and ultimately defeat for the working class and people in general like all the parties who acted like them before.

I think it is very unwise to let a party like PAME/KKE create their narrow version of what they consider to be a revolution. It will simply not work and PAME/KKE will not succeed at all.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 15:50

They were not thousands and I'll "admit" that the rhetoric was as fitting as it could be.

The numbers sure seem to chage a lot during the debate....because AttackGr mentioned 3000-1000...then a number of tens of thousands against several thousand was mentioned...then it went to hundereds.

Ravachol

22nd October 2011, 17:18

There are some greek flags in our protests, there are also immigrant workers who seem to mean less to you since you won't comment on them but on the flags.

I'm not denying that, I'm merely pointing out that the presence of Greek flags (something I'd personally wouldn't want to be associated with) doesn't make the group of anarchists 'full of fascists'. If that were the case the same would hold true for the KKE (which obviously is bullshit as well). I'm merely pointing out that the whole "anarcho-fascist" slander is just that, slander.

I don't give a shit about the KKE and didn't give a shit about it before this whole mess, what bothers me, however, is the classical attitude of "all those who do not submit to the vanguard are (insert 1930s slander here)! As a result, we have every right to police/purge/assault them".

tir1944

22nd October 2011, 17:29

I'm not denying that, I'm merely pointing out that the presence of Greek flags (something I'd personally wouldn't want to be associated with) doesn't make the group of anarchists 'full of fascists'.Correct,however,why would anarchists carry Greek flags?
Anarchists sometimes do carry them,but the either invert and/or burn them later.
So,yeah,something's not right about all that.

If that were the case the same would hold true for the KKE (which obviously is bullshit as well).Why?

I'm merely pointing out that the whole "anarcho-fascist" slander is just that,
slander.And how do you know that?

I don't give a shit about the KKE Good for you,however a singificant portion of the Greek working class does.

what bothers me, however, is the classical attitude of "all those who do not submit to the vanguard are (insert 1930s slander here)! As a result, we have every right to police/purge/assault them". It's quite clear who attacked (and threw molotovs) on who...

Die Neue Zeit

22nd October 2011, 17:37

It seems to me that the KKE response was very unhelpful to the situation by painting the anarchists as agents of the state, murderers, fascists and all round evil people. This seems to only serve the purpose of inciting more violence something which they claim to have wanted to avoid. Language like this seems to be laying the groundwork for further political suppression if they actually managed to gain control of the state. It would not be too hard to imagine purges against anarchists and any other political opponents if this is the way the KKE feels about socialists.

I appreciate your making of this constructive thread. :)

Anyway, the generalization of the anarchists as all agents provocateurs is indeed going too far, but this would help explain the KKE's extremely defensive mentality.

Atm there is an escalation by anachists attacking kne members in universities, or burning three KKE offices here in Thessaloniki.

This sectarianism is definitely very bad.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 17:43

Correct,however,why would anarchists carry Greek flags?
Anarchists sometimes do carry them,but the either invert and/or burn them later.
So,yeah,something's not right about all that.

Because it was not anarchists. It was the "No Pay" movement. KKE/PAME were not only facing anarchists but many different groups that they. In fact...the first major skirmish broke out between PAME/KKE and the No pay movement...but previously there had been minor clashes between PAME/KKE and several other groups....left-comunists, anarchists, militant of different plumage, small unions. etc. after PAME/KKE initiated those.

KKE/PAME uses that "anarchist" accusation as a form of denouncing everybody. It is not accurately describing who they opposed.

Ravachol

22nd October 2011, 18:42

Correct,however,why would anarchists carry Greek flags?
Anarchists sometimes do carry them,but the either invert and/or burn them later.
So,yeah,something's not right about all that.

Perhaps because that group consisted of more than just Anarchists? Because it included members of movements like "I won't pay" and other workers not affiliated with PAME or other leftist groups who wave the Greek flag simply as some kind of "people's symbol" (ridiculous in my eyes, but so is any form of nationalism). Hell, maybe there even was a borderline nationalist amongst that crowd, who knows. Is that a good thing? No, definitely not. Are there borderline nationalists amongst the KKE/PAME crowd? Given their rethoric and postions, I sure think so.

Does that make the whole PAME crowd "social-fascists"? No. Does the single Greek flag make the whole Anarchist/non-aligned block "anarcho-fascists"? No.

Stop dancing around the issue. I'm sick and tired of the Pravda-spin being given to this issue and the pro-KKE camp coming out with 4 different stories all 'backed up' by unsupported 'evidence' and slander.

And how do you know that?

Yes, I admit it. The entire anarchist scene in Greece is secretly fascist. All of them are closet nationalists. The whole crowd has a membership card of Golden Dawn. In fact, I'm a card-carrying member of Blood & Honour as well! :rolleyes:

Good for you,however a singificant portion of the Greek working class does.

A significant portion of the Greek working class voted for PASOK and a significant portion of the Greek working class is in GSEE. That doesn't mean shit. The working class isn't a homogenous social body and their support for one or the other leftist group isn't indicative of how right-on-track that group is as far as communist revolution is concerned. If that were the matter, all previous attempts at vanguardist 'communist revoltion' wouldn't have resulted in either social-democracy or state-capitalism.

It's quite clear who attacked (and threw molotovs) on who...

Yes, after PAME acting like a police line. Fuck it, I'm not gonna repeat this line over and over and over with the muppet show over here repeating their line over and over again. Whatever.

tir1944

22nd October 2011, 18:49

Because it was not anarchists. It was the "No Pay" movement. KKE/PAME were not only facing anarchists but many different groups that they.
Including...fascists?
Fact is,it's very likely that there indeed have been fascist too among the herd that attacked the KKE/PAME.
So,anarchists attacked KKE together with fascists.

Yes, I admit it. The entire anarchist scene in Greece is secretly fascist. All of them are closet nationalists. The whole crowd has a membership card of Golden Dawn. In fact, I'm a card-carrying member of Blood & Honour as well! :rolleyes:
You can ridicule as much as you want but you can't change the facts.Fascists attacked the masses together with anarchists(or vice versa).That's why the KKE talks about "anarcho-fascists",in the context of that specific event.

A significant portion of the Greek working class voted for PASOK and a significant portion of the Greek working class is in GSEE. That doesn't mean shit
Yes,however KKE has a support of a significant portion of the working class,while the anarchists have almost no support.

Yes, after PAME acting like a police line.
Yes,they tried to protect themselves.Defensive formation.

Ravachol

22nd October 2011, 19:01

You can ridicule as much as you want but you can't change the facts.Fascists attacked the masses together with anarchists(or vice versa).That's why the KKE talks about "anarcho-fascists",in the context of that specific event.

Give some fucking proof or shut your big internet loudmouth. I'm sick and tired of these baseless accusations coming from someone who only supports the whole ruckus because of some cultish adherence to what "the party" says.

Yes,however KKE has a support of a significant portion of the working class,while the anarchists have almost no support.

Ah, thank you for the information. I didn't know that until you pulled it out of your arse.

Yes,they tried to protect themselves.Defensive formation.

http://culmine.noblogs.org/files/2011/10/comunisti-2.jpg
http://culmine.noblogs.org/files/2011/10/comunisti-4.jpg

This is defensive formation to you? These people are obviously 'hooded anarcho-fascist provocateurs' eh? If this behavior is excusable to you deserve to get treated the same way. And don't come crying about the molotov again because however despicable that was it didn't warrant this coordinated sweep operation in concert with the cops. If you find this above excusable we're done here.

tir1944

22nd October 2011, 19:06

Give some fucking proof or shut your big internet loudmouth.I don't have definite proof,nor could i,however these Greek nat. flags among the anarchists tell me enough...:cool:

I'm sick and tired of these baseless accusations coming from someone in Montenegro no less who only supports the whole ruckus because of some cultish adherence to what "the party" says.I can think for myself,thank you.

I didn't know that until you pulled it out of your arse.Do i really have to link you to the wikipage on Greek politics?

This is defensive formation to you?No,however that happened AFTER the anarcho-hooligans attacked the KKE/PAME activists.I too would get pretty pissed off if someone threw molotovs on me and my comrades.

If this behavior is excusable to you deserve to get treated the same way.I personally do not approve of three-four men beating some guy on the floor,however that's not really relevant.It's clear who started all that.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 19:28

Including...fascists?
Fact is,it's very likely that there indeed have been fascist too among the herd that attacked the KKE/PAME.
So,anarchists attacked KKE together with fascists.
You can ridicule as much as you want but you can't change the facts.Fascists attacked the masses together with anarchists(or vice versa).That's why the KKE talks about "anarcho-fascists",in the context of that specific event.

You do realise that according to this rational you just spewed....you can not deny that the KKE/PAME operated with the cops...since they attacked together with them.

So be consistent or just simply admit that this statement you made is nonsense.

And the KKE is definately not using the term anarcho-fascists to describe them being attacked by anarchists and fascists...they use that gterm as an umbrella label to a whole range of groups:

Left-comminists, Trotskyists, socialists, anarchists, Won't Pay movement, small unions not belonging to the PAME, unaffiliated workers.

I don't have definite proof,nor could i,however these Greek nat. flags among the anarchists tell me enough...:cool:

Ah...well...the flag....that settles it then...if there is a Greek flag prsent it automatically means fascst. Check. I get where you are comming from.

But that does mean there is just one, teeny tiny little snag...because according to this rational:

you are actively supporting a fascist group: KKE/PAME.

http://cowidget.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/large_610x456_scaled/photos/150333.jpg

thank you for playing.

tir1944

22nd October 2011, 20:17

Ah...well...the flag....that settles it then...if there is a Greek flag prsent it automatically means fascst. Check. I get where you are comming from.
No,because there are national flags present among ANARCHISTS.What is that you don't get?

Ravachol

22nd October 2011, 21:00

No,because there are national flags present among ANARCHISTS.What is that you don't get?

Because it weren't only anarchists, there were more protesters there. That doesn't immediately mean they were fascists. They could have been non-aligned, non-anarchist workers who simply wave the Greek flag out of a misplaced feeling of 'the people against troika'. That doesn't make them fascists, PERIOD. But discussion is lost on you anyways.

RedGrunt

22nd October 2011, 21:11

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 21:12

No,because there are national flags present among ANARCHISTS.What is that you don't get?

I do not get why you do not get that it was not just anarchists being met with agression from PAME/KKE....but also left-coms, socialists, trotskyists, democratic socialists and more radical leftwing members of social democrat groups, the no-pay movement, unions not belonging to PAME, unaffiliated workers and people etc.

..and yes...refusing access, passage and entry IS agression in and of itself. And offcourse I am also refering to the skirmishes that morning initiated by PAME/KKE which would involve the acts more traditionally associated with violence like...you know...breaking the eye socket of a girl.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 21:15

Yea, the flags could be anyone.. the only thing that proves is those individuals in the crowd were most likely not anarchists.

As for the pictures of the KKE beating on people, that really doesn't mean shit either. That could be taken completely out of context, five minutes before that those KKE people could have gotten assaulted themselves. The only thing that it proves is the KKE were aggressive towards those in the picture but the reasoning(if any) behind that and the entire context is left out.

But is does absolutely disprove any claim that PAME/KKE took a solely defensive position and remained stationary. That much is very obvious from the pictures.

And offcourse it provides a nice counter balance from the out of context pictures which are posted in support of PAME/KKE to show how horrible the supposed "para-state anarcho-fascists bear cavalry was against the poor defenseless workers whose bravery and determination managed to throw back the hordes of the apocalypse. "

No_Leaders

22nd October 2011, 21:33

What it boils down to is Stalinists doing what they do best. Being counter-revolutionaries and trying to purge us anarchists out, along with other 'enemies of the people'. The fact that they're calling anarchists comrades 'anarcho-fascists' equates with me the same way PCE scum called the CNT-FAI, and POUM 5th columnists for Franco, and fascists sympathisers. I see Stalin's propaganda arm is still alive and well in Greece. I mean if KKE is so revolutioinary why do they have seats in parliament? Why do they support the State and the paid mercanarie force the pigs? I'm sure if KKE had their way they'd round us up like Stalinists have ALWAYS done. They're no friend of mine, and i don't see how they're working to create a stateless, equal society. No everything points to the exact oppossite.

PhoenixAsh

22nd October 2011, 21:56

I agree for the most part....

side note: not all ML's have sold out anarchists and many have opposed such tactics which were indeed, regrettably, very wide spread in the ML movement.

Le Socialiste

22nd October 2011, 22:09

KKE's dismissal of their opponents is eerily reminiscent of how the ruling classes portray those participating in protests, demonstrations, strikes, or uprisings. I think it's fairly clear that what they're doing is positioning themselves as a useful defense against rising working-class militancy. They've proven this usefulness before and they're doing so again. The statement also, as some have pointed out, serves as a justification for their crackdown on the protesters and keeps the door open for future unrest. My only hope is that the people realize KKE's role in the system and reject it as such. I suspect most are already aware of the major 'left' parties'/unions' efforts to suppress the workers (as opposed to aiding them). Now, it only takes a complete and decisive break with these groups that would steer the movement away from actual action.

RED DAVE

22nd October 2011, 22:12

Le Socialiste

22nd October 2011, 22:21

The French CP and its union the CGT played almost exactly the same role in France in '68.

RED DAVE

I'm aware of that. It's why I've grown so hostile to any party or organization that seeks to influence what is (and can potentially be) a revolutionary situation for their own personal gain. If a group seeks to cooperate with any given movement, great. It's a matter of certain groups who seek a monopoly over the movement's leadership, which in turn often leads to reformism and the eventual disintegration of any potential said movement might have had. These organizations too often sell out the working-class for their own upward mobility. That's why the workers, in the event of a situation much like Greece's, must maintain the highest degree of autonomy they can manage.

Fawkes

22nd October 2011, 23:26

No,because there are national flags present among ANARCHISTS.What is that you don't get?

And there were police present among KKE/PAME....

There's no such thing as anarcho-fascism and continuing to use that term makes you sound like an idiot.

I mean, let's weigh this one out:

There were a couple of greek flags among a very heterogeneous crowd of people ranging from anarchists to left coms to trotskyists to "won't pay" to small union members

vs.

There were police acting in concert with PAME/KKE

...and you're saying the anarchists are the "fascist" ones here? I really can't imagine it's too comfortable having your head that far up your own ass.

Ravachol

23rd October 2011, 00:30

Via Occupied London (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/10/22/resolution-by-the-popular-assembly-of-syntagma-square-21102011/)

Do note that the number of Anarchists participating in these assemblies is negligible. These aren't "hooded provocateurs" but simply the popular assembly of Syntagma Square we all know, consisting of ordinary workers. It seems that the 'massive support for the KKEs actions' isn't all that massive, despite all the leftist groupuscules either supporting KKE or just taking the middle road of "we condemn both".

Resolution by the Popular Assembly of Syntagma Square, 21/10/2011

After Varkiza [1], the Polytechnic [2], the Chemistry School (1979) [3], December [2008] [4] and a number of other instances, reality once again came to reveal the role of the Party that systematically betrays popular struggles. And if up to this point they strangled, with their political offices any generalised and determined strike during all these years, if they smeared all revolts as a “provocation”, henceforth history shows this was not “mere political errors” but a co-oordinated and conscious stance defending parliamentary dictatorship and the capitalist financial and social relationships. This is what they did yesterday (20/10), too, even if up to that point they would call the people to demonstrations for the overthrowing of the government. They guarded the smooth operation of parliament and instead of surrounding it they acted even more barbarously than the police, cracking sculls open and handing over demonstrators to the forces of repression. The worst from all that they did was that they legitimised the state, which murdered one of their comrades, blaming the murder to some parastatist violence.

From yesterday on, definitively and irreversibly, the so-called “Communist Party” is no more than a barrier against the attempt to bury the parliamentary corpse. Any free human struggling for their dignity in these crucial days must politically target it [in return]. This proposition should not be read as a split in the movement. We might have common problems and common targets with the plain voters of the “Communist Party”, but the politics and the practice of the leadership to which they are glued follows by word the orders of the government and the envoys of the IMF, EU and the ECB. We never marched side-by-side with them, there will never be with us. We must all keep in mind that the “Communist Party” will act as a fifth column of the dictatorial regime, hoping once again to grab some crumbs off the parliamentary table, just like it did in 1990 [5].

The stance of all political groupings, whether parliamentary or not, which supported the acts of the “Communist Party”, either indirectly with their silence, or directly with their statements, is equally condemnable. For as long as these parties remain within a parliament comprising of order-recipients of the TROIKA and continue to receive their fat salaries, they are entirely co-responsible for what has happened so far and what is to come. Their negative votes to the memorandums and combined laws reveal precisely their role in the dictatorship: they provide the alibi of polyphony and democracy, in this entirely set-up parliament of representatives, in order for the impoverished people to continue counting the ballots in each fixed and predetermined voting of laws that abolish their future – while at the same time being fed with the illusion that someone speaks on their behalf and their interest. So, they leave opposition to the professionals of politics, and do not feel the need to react immediately and by person. Any vote, even to extra-parliamentary parties of the “far left” in national and local elections is nothing more than oil in the clogs [of the machine] and a legitimisation of the “correctness” of the current parliamentary dictatorship.

From May 25th, when we first gathered at the square, we revealed direct democracy as the capacity of each one of us to participate, to consult, one another, to shape ideas together autonomously, away from ideological or parliamentary labels. We shall remain here, against their bankrupt parliamentarism and their bureaucracy.

WE ARE TAKING OUR LIVES INTO OUR OWN HANDS

DIRECT DEMOCRACY NOW

Popular Assembly of Syntagma Square, 21/10/2011

1. Reference to the 1945 Treaty of Varkiza, where the Communist Party betrayed armed struggle and thousands of fighters of the Civil War in exchange for its legality in the new regime

2. Reference to the Communist Party’s original stance against the Polytechnic Uprising of 1973, calling participants “police provocateurs”

3. Reference to the incidents of 1979 at the Chemistry School in Athens, where members of the Communist Party broke the school’s occupation, directly co-operating with the police

4. A reference, of course, to the most recent condemning of the revolt of December 2008

5. Reference to the Communist Party’s share of power with the two main parliamentary parties, ND and PASOK, in 1990

Os Cangaceiros

23rd October 2011, 00:46

I hadn't really considered it before, but if the KKE blamed the death of one of their members on anything other than the state's repression...that's really bad.

RedSide

23rd October 2011, 01:31

Ravachol

23rd October 2011, 02:11

Expected nothing less of someone parroting the newspeak "Anarcho-Fascist" label, which almost curiously mirrors the "Anarchokommounistes" label of the Junta :rolleyes: It's all a conspiracy!

No_Leaders

23rd October 2011, 02:23

Oh this is the assembly of the movement that their members didn't participate in any strike but were going to protest during the evening after work during a general strike?

Or is it the movement that both syriza and anarchists tried to control?? You can check their forums if you know greek there is a thread with anarchists and synaspimos members fighting on a resolution :laugh:

Or is this the movement which stopped pame during june and told them that they should lower their banners "cause we want you here as persons but not as pame/kke" while having a banner of synaspismos in the middle of the demonstration.

Give me a break...

Still doesn't explain why a supposedly revolutionary communist group participates in and has seats in parliament. Doesn't explain anything as to why they knowlingly side with the state and forces of oppression. Face it, this failed stalinist party is still living in the world of soviet style communism. Something that does not represent the working class, or other socialists who want to implement a real socialist society not this farce. KKE openly condemns any popular uprising (the uprising at the polytechnic during the junta, the 2008 anarchist uprisings after police murdered a kid, etc.) How do they justify these things? We need to recognize that simply calling some statists authoritarian hacks a 'communist party' that does not make it so.. I'm sure if KKE were in power they would implement something similiar as to what Belarus has, or some other old soviet satellite state had as a 'communist state'.

RedSide

23rd October 2011, 03:17

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 04:26

@ravachol
If your last post was a response to E situation's comment concerning KKE skip this part... If not, keep reading.

If you actually cared to check my posts ( new member so i have around 10) you would have seen that i said the anarchofascist rhetoric of KKE is completely boring (+stupid, predictable etc). Defending their actions during thursday doesn't mean I can't critisize KKE on other matters. I never said anything about conspiracies. So use these arguments against someone else.

My post was a response to your effort to make this resolution seem like it has anything to do with ordinary workers and nothing with anarchists... Which is a lie. :)

@No leaders

It's quite obvious that most of the posters in here just hate ML and KKE since we are talking about greece. I don't have the will to start talking about the "revolutioness" of legal ML parties in bourgeois democracies. It's obvious that KKE tries to balance between revolutionary practice,rhetoric and legality, putting them in a damned if you do , damned if you don't position.I'm not here to justify every stupid decision the party has made in the past (Poly uprising). All of you start criticizing the events of thursday and keep going back and back showing that you just don't like kke in general which is fine, but don't expect anyone to participate in a discussion about the wrong decisions of the past when most of you don't show any real intention to discuss but just troll.:rolleyes:

The fact is that you can not help but judge parties on the basis of their previous behaviour and analyse their current behaviour in the light of that.

There is a popular saying about human behaviour: "past behaviour is indicative of future behaviour". And I think this goes for human organisations as well. Offcourse it is entirely possible for sombody to break their habits.

For a large part pretty substantial posts have been made against the KKE...not on the basis of some dislike for MLs or the party itself...but arising from the events on the 20th, the chronology, the acts itself...the argument given for those acts so far and the behaviour of the party in the past as well as their position in parliament and government.

The insurmountable problem people have is not with the idea of the party wanting to have a peaceful demonstration and not take any risks. The problem people have is that they violently prevented people from going to parliament...which subsequently resulted in violence being used against them. And ultimately cooperation with the cops.

We question their right to do so.
We question the legitimacy of the KKE claims about the chronology and portrayal of events.
We question the one sided defence of the situation by KKE
We question their tactics in this.
We question their right to dominate a general strike

and ultimately...

We question their motives

All of this we do based on the events on the 20th and inevitably on the basis of the parties position and behaviour in the past.

Before the 20th I had not much problems with the KKE other than my usual objections to MLs. I did neither like or dislike the party. And I was cautiously optimistic about the rethorics on the 19th...which were a LOT revolutionary sounding than how they eventually acted on the 20th...talking about the disruption of the political process, talking about the end of these burgeoisie democratic antics.

Unfortunately they felt the need to black, and refuse acces and subsequently beat the crap out of my unarmed friends and gtheir unarmed group...BEFORE...the skirmishes happened later that day. And their later actions did not make me any happier about KKE either.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 04:39

I'm not denying that, I'm merely pointing out that the presence of Greek flags (something I'd personally wouldn't want to be associated with) doesn't make the group of anarchists 'full of fascists'. If that were the case the same would hold true for the KKE (which obviously is bullshit as well). I'm merely pointing out that the whole "anarcho-fascist" slander is just that, slander.

I don't give a shit about the KKE and didn't give a shit about it before this whole mess, what bothers me, however, is the classical attitude of "all those who do not submit to the vanguard are (insert 1930s slander here)! As a result, we have every right to police/purge/assault them".

All those who throw rocks and molotovs to a defenseless crowd with their faces hidden and while being afraid to come close, are thugs.
Their thugish behavior is the result of their luben proletariat class conscience.

There were workers on one side and "hooded youth" alongside nationalists, your everyday hooligan and people who had things releasing smoke and police batons with them (and whom I won't name police infiltrators, I'm guessing you can buy at least some non-lethal chemical weapons in your closest mall nowadays, can't you?).

Radical nationalism or small groups of it have been around ever since this thing started, claiming that "we're occupied, that politician are traitors, that they should be hanged, they betrayed us once bringing all these immigrants they're betraying us again: etc
They're there yelling at PAME, in May 5th in the past year it was groups like that that tried to "enter" the parliament. According to them PAME is systemic and the only true struggle is in hanging the traitors which will fix anything.

This is a Golden Dawn announcement. Mind you, a while back Golden Dawn who tries to portray itself as radical and pro-people, came out supporting refusal to pay taxes but opposing strikes saying they divide the nation.
Now they're saying they did protest but that they weren't organized in a block to not bring attention to themselves

Αυτοί που ξεκάθαρα έδρασαν δίπλα στους κρατικούς κατασταλτικούς μηχανισμούς ήταν τα μέλη του ΚΚΕ! Αυτοί χτύπησαν και τραυμάτισαν απεργούς της ΠΟΕ-ΟΤΑ, όταν αυτοί προσπάθησαν να προσεγγίσουν τη βουλή. Σε ερώτηση δημοσιογράφου μάλιστα για το αν το ΠΑΜΕ βρισκόταν σε συννενόηση με την αστυνομία, η Παπαρήγα στην ουσία επιβεβαίωσε(!), απαντώντας ότι: “δεν μπορώ να μεταφέρω από πρώτο χέρι, δεν ήμουν εγώ υπεύθυνη για την περιφρούρηση, αλλά οι σύντροφοι του ΠΑΜΕ…”. Υποδύθηκε μάλιστα και την εκπρόσωπο τύπου της αστυνομίας, λέγοντας πως: “εκείνη τη στιγμή δεν μπορούσε να επέμβει η αστυνομία, καταλαβαίνετε τι θα γινότανε αν επενέβαινε εκείνη τη στιγμή η αστυνομία”. Αυτοί είναι οι επαγγελματίες μπολσεβίκοι, τα πιο χρήσιμα δεκανίκια του αστικού κράτους. Έχουν φτάσει στο σημείο να καλύπτουν τις αρχές ενός εθνοπροδοτικού και αντιλαϊκού συστήματος, την ώρα μάλιστα που εξαιτίας αυτών των ανεκδιήγητων αρχών, ένας σύντροφός τους, ένας άτυχος Έλληνας, έπεφτε νεκρός.
http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/%CE%B7-%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%87%CF%81%CE%AE-%CF%88%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%C E%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%AF%C E%BA%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%87/

Translating with google

Those who clearly acted alongside state repressive mechanisms were members of the Communist Party! They hit and injured strikers WTO-TAB when they tried to reach the parliament. A journalist's question about whether even the PAME was in consultation with the police, Papariga essentially confirmed (!), Replying that "I can not pass on first hand, I was not responsible for stewardship, but the companions of PAME .... "Portrayed even the spokesman of the police, saying: "at that time could not intervene, the police, you know what would have happened if you intervene at the time the police." These are the professionals Bolsheviks, the most useful crutches of the bourgeois state. They have come to cover a ethnoprodotikou (treasonous) authorities as they are unpopular system, at a time when because of those indescribable authorities a companion, an unfortunate Greeks, fell dead.

The translation is awful yes, but didn't want to translate it myself because I could easily see someone casting doubts. The juice is there. According to Golden Dawn, PAME acted together with the police protecting the regime because that's what communists do.
Remind you of anything?

When a man was killed in downtown Athens Golden Dawn had demonstrations. Reporters from our newpaper were there, some faces were the same with the ones we see in every protest.

DaringMehring

23rd October 2011, 04:52

Lenin said, anarchism is a kind of penalty the communist movement pays for its opportunism. Seems like this is yet another example.

I would say -- neither social-democratic Stalinism, nor impotent anarchism, but revolutionary socialism. But in Greece, it seems the Trotskyists are small and theoretically weak, and opportunistic, so that's not an option.

Best luck to the true revolutionaries of Greece, whatever organization they are part of. Your struggle is our struggle.

RedSide

23rd October 2011, 04:55

Blackscare

23rd October 2011, 05:04

Are you sure you're being objective?

Yes I do, because frankly I'm not that interested in this little spat (well, I find it interesting, but not in the sense that I'd take a side). It's a simple rule, it has nothing to do with the particulars of this thread. You'd be hard pressed to find an online forum that tolerated cross-thread posting like this. Either post new material or don't post at all, obviously anyone who is interested in this subject will have most likely read the other threads and see your post anyway.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 05:11

@hindsight

I can understand where most of the objections come from. And its a 101 tactics in debates to try to make someone look wrong in the past so he looks wrong in the present and future. It's like me saying that anarchists killed 3 people and so they shouldn't be accepted in a protest again.:tt2:

What I meant was that its not productive during a discussion when your argument (ravachol's attempt to make a resolution by an assembly look like it matters and is ...objective) is refuted, to have people asking why KKE even exists. Just create a fucking thread talking about kke as a party and critisize its history,practice and future!

We don't try to make KKE look wrong in the past. Their actions did that all by themselves.

And their actions today are interpreted along those lines. I doubt that if the KKE had simply stepped aside it would have illicited een a fraction of the same indignation (though some would have questioned the tactic) and if they would have taken action we would have all been praising
KKE right now.

Instead they didn't and they way in which they didn't caused a violent reaction towards PAME/KKE which they now subsequently try to milk for what its worth....and try to paint as a cowardly attack on PAME/KKE. Which is really simply ignoring the fact that PAME/KKE were the ones who started this in the first place.

Look...to put it plainly...if a guy cheats on a girl...and does it again to another...and then he cheats on the third one...You have to see his behaviour in the light of his past behaviour...and the likelyhood he will cheat on yhet another girl is very much greater than that of a guy who never ever cheated. It is offcourse not a guarantee...but I think I would take the bet and like the odds.

But the string of questionable actions and downright condemnable actions by KKE is pretty much a big one. And consists of many revolutionary no-no's
This does not bode well for the future...even if they do manage to gain the upper hand somewhere. That would be very worrying for just about every other revolutionary organisation out there.

These threads are pretty much about the KKE...

and the arguments we have been given are weak at best and leave many questions unanswered or inored. On top of that the rethorics by PAME/KKE themselves leave much to be desired and are in fact little more than age old slander tactics...which does not inspire much trust either...not to mention that they often contradict the facts or arguments we have been given.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 05:12

FSL

23rd October 2011, 05:14

Yes I do, because frankly I'm not that interested in this little spat (well, I find it interesting, but not in the sense that I'd take a side). It's a simple rule, it has nothing to do with the particulars of this thread. You'd be hard pressed to find an online forum that tolerated cross-thread posting like this. Either post new material or don't post at all, obviously anyone who is interested in this subject will have most likely read the other threads and see your post anyway.

Yes the 40 pages of them, 38 of which filled with "KKE are traitors, kill them dear comrades!, plz!"

Blackscare

23rd October 2011, 05:22

Yes the 40 pages of them, 38 of which filled with "KKE are traitors, kill them dear comrades!, plz!"

Listen, I gave you my explanation. Now drop this shit, you're like a little kid running to their mommy saying "but she pushed me first!". I don't care, I really don't. Just follow some basic etiquette to keep this board uncluttered, that's all that I ask. I know you think that this particular issue is so damn important, but who's to say that if you're allowed to post the same stuff from thread to thread others won't follow suit for other topics? Believe me, we have enough weirdos here who like to stalk other weirdos and post nearly the same things as it is, we don't need to encourage this. Stop acting like a child and stop with these complaint posts or I'll warn you again, then I'll see if I can't infract you. If you think I'm being so horribly unjust, take it to the members forum.

This is your final warning. Also, no, what you posted in this thread is not relevant because the thread is specifically for discussing how the KKE handled the fallout in their statement. Posting riot porn and the like trying to justify their actions is not what this thread is about, take it to the other threads.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 05:33

All those who throw rocks and molotovs to a defenseless crowd with their faces hidden and while being afraid to come close, are thugs.
Their thugish behavior is the result of their luben proletariat class conscience.

And just for the record again...HOW would you describe people who beat an uarmed woman repeatedly and break her eye socket?
And HOW exactly would you describe people who hit an unarmed guy over the head with a stick so that is causes a bleading head wound which needs to be stitched?

Because...well...that is what happened before all of what you describe happened.

But you seem to find yourself unable to condemn these acts. In fact...as memory serves...you have dismissed them.

util you acknowledge those facts...the following counts:

Pleaaaase spare me your righteous indignation and blatant hypocracy in somehow trying to call upon emotional argument for poor unarmed people getting hurt....boho fucking ho...apparantly it is only important when it happens to the KKE/PAME and not important or relevant when the PAME/KKE thugs do exactly the same (earlier on the day...dont forget that).

There were workers on one side and "hooded youth" alongside nationalists, your everyday hooligan and people who had things releasing smoke and police batons with them (and whom I won't name police infiltrators, I'm guessing you can buy at least some non-lethal chemical weapons in your closest mall nowadays, can't you?).

Because the PAME 2 inch (!!!) flag poles which you tried to paint as harmless and not weapons at all....well...they were only there for flag waving (KKE swears, honestly...really...no other purpose...at all)

If you have a black block group here I can pretty much guarantee you that most of them will have some form of weapon and many of them will indeed
have police battons or similar equipement. Basically they are smaller and thinner versions of the KKE flagpoles.

And the "things" with smoke...yeah we use fire extinguishers too. Like you use your flagpoles.

The translation is awful yes, but didn't want to translate it myself because I could easily see someone casting doubts. The juice is there. According to Golden Dawn, PAME acted together with the police protecting the regime because that's what communists do.
Remind you of anything?

Actually...it exactly reminds me of what we saw PAME/KKE do...of what they did in the past.

What is your point here?

That there may have been some nationalists in the large heterogenous group that attacked you?

That this somehow justified PAME/KKE in bloking people and using violence against them earlier that day...when all this had not yet happened?

When a man was killed in downtown Athens Golden Dawn had demonstrations. Reporters from our newpaper were there, some faces were the same with the ones we see in every protest.

Well...seeing as we see a lot of unmasked people in those pictures you will have no problem pointing them out. If you would please be so kind to do so...and provide evidence that they are for the most part belonging to GD.....

On the other hand...IF as you claim...they all were masked hooded thugs...you pretty much can guess that I have a very hard time believing the accusation that you recognized so many of them.

RedSide

23rd October 2011, 05:53

You know what I mean about debates. Don't play with words.:D

Have to sleep tbh:P.I Personally believe that most of your objections were answered.I don't like talking about things I don't know, so I won't start debating using arguments out of my @$$. I think you just want to read something like "KKE is not revolutionary and must be crashed/dissolved" but my opinion is that with its faults and stupid rhetorics its still the best choice for greek workers.

Once again my objection was with ravachol tactics trying to persuade us about the objectivity of an assembly(??) and that this assembly of 2 guys that wrote the resolution actually represents anyone but themselves. Kinda like KKE does believing that its the only political party representing greek workers...Oh wait KKE actually represents A LARGE PART of the workers.:rolleyes:

FSL

23rd October 2011, 06:05

On the other hand...IF as you claim...they all were masked hooded thugs...you pretty much can guess that I have a very hard time believing the accusation that you recognized so many of them.
The people who are next to PAME chains at every demo shouting and swearing don't have hoods.
One of them was from KKE ml holding that party's paper even. Others were nationalists. Some "anarchist" was getting stones to throw.
All in one bloc.
These of course aren't simply "people". They're very conscious in their politics. They're not your average man who just went there and was "shocked" with what he found.

Actually...it exactly reminds me of what we saw PAME/KKE do...of what they did in the past.

What is your point here?

That there may have been some nationalists in the large heterogenous group that attacked you?

What? Are you sure they weren't all harcore revolutionaries ready to bring down capitalism? Thousands of them?

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 06:22

The people who are next to PAME chains at every demo shouting and swearing don't have hoods.
One of them was from KKE ml holding that party's paper even. Others were nationalists. Some "anarchist" was getting stones to throw.
All in one bloc.
These of course aren't simply "people". They're very conscious in their politics. They're not your average man who just went there and was "shocked" with what he found.

What? Are you sure they weren't all harcore revolutionaries ready to bring down capitalism? Thousands of them?

I think they were all masked representatives of the fearie apocalypse who will usher in the new age of Mordor.

So how about your reaction on the KKE/PAME thugs beating an unarmed girl in an unarmed demo to such an extend she has a broken eye socket? BEFORE the fighting in the square happened?

Any idea what kind of force is needed to break an eye socket with a fist?? Because I do...and in order to excert the amount of force necessary...and to do so against a clearly recogniseable girl....well...that recuires somebody to be a very fucking and very determined cold bastard.

Also note that this is the sixth time I need to point out to you that you have failed to condemn these acts by PAME/THUGS....

FSL

23rd October 2011, 06:32

I think they were all masked representatives of the fearie apocalypse who will usher in the new age of Mordor.

So how about your reaction on the KKE/PAME thugs beating an unarmed girl in an unarmed demo to such an extend she has a broken eye socket? BEFORE the fighting in the square happened?

You expect an apology?
I've seen the people in chains (there is a video of them here as well, almost not moving a muscle while getting taunted. One makes a step forward and others immediately pull him back), they are a hundred times more calm than I could ever hope to be. That's what communists are like mind you, they are "complete human beings", or the most complete I've ever seen.

What you're saying is probably a lie, like all the things you said about collaborating with police etc, and if not it's half the story, she must have thrown some stones herself. It's easier to act brave when you think everyone will just subdue.

Also note that this is the sixth time I need to point out to you that you have failed to condemn these acts by PAME/THUGS....
Wait? Condemn? My first post after the events and I clearly said I was proud of the whole thing, of people at the front, of the people at the back who didn't run, of everyone.
Don't try to create impressions.

Edit: Here it is. You are claiming these people hit someone -and an unarmed girl at that- without provocation. That's beyond ridiculous.
Td1nOjqm3L4

FSL

23rd October 2011, 06:56

By the way the loud bangs one can hear are not from riot police.
They were not doing anything back then.
It's from things that flew in from the other crowd.
How did they get their hands on them remains a mystery.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 06:58

You expect an apology?
I've seen the people in chains (there is a video of them here as well, almost not moving a muscle while getting taunted. One makes a step forward and others immediately pull him back), they are a hundred times more calm than I could ever hope to be. That's what communists are like mind you, they are "complete human beings", or the most complete I've ever seen.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

OMFG...you are one of THOSE guys.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

What you're saying is probably a lie, like all the things you said about collaborating with police etc, and if not it's half the story, she must have thrown some stones herself. It's easier to act brave when you think everyone will just subdue.

I am not even going to dignify this with a response...I will let this stand by itself as a witness to your level of depravity.

Wait? Condemn? My first post after the events and I clearly said I was proud of the whole thing, of people at the front, of the people at the back who didn't run, of everyone.
Don't try to create impressions.

I am not.. I am making the observation that you are proud of collanborators and reactionaries waving flags for communism while participating and beholden to the burgeseoisie democracy.

Edit: Here it is. You are claiming these people hit someone -and an unarmed girl at that- without provocation. That's beyond ridiculous.
Td1nOjqm3L4

I never claimed those people you show in your video did that. I claimed their ilk belonging to their treacherous and collaborating reactionary club did.

I count very little hooded thugs in that video by the way.

But fu to see how you dismiss everyting that doesn't suit you as lies...kind of like your traterous reactionary party does. Tell me...how does it feel sellig out to the burgeoisie and collaborating with cops you mysogenist critter?

O...and I woud so very much for you to meet her in person and repeat the threat you made against her in the other thread...lets see how that goes.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 07:07

you are one of THOSE guys
I'd wish, I don't have the patience.
Someone comes spitting towards me saying I'm blocking his way to revolution, I'll just be really angry. No chance of thinking straight.

I never claimed those people you show in your video did that. I claimed their ilk belonging to their treacherous and collaborating reactionary club did.
All the people standing in chains are like them.
Everyone.
If they weren't, they'd have been replaced. Not even assigned there in the first place
It's a common thing to have others provoking, it happens every time.
The "fat" guy with a paper in his hands, that's from the KKE ml party, a small maoist one. You can see the people with the flag. Near the end there is a hooded person at the front and another one behind is breaking the steps to get pieces of marble to throw.

These people -well some of them- are from the "we're not paying" bloc. Of course just about everyone had gone inside that bloc provoking those around him to start shouting and then trying to provoke PAME to answer.
But as you can see no way would they ever do that to someone not being a direct threat to people's health.

how does it feel sellig out to the burgeoisie and collaborating with cops you mysogenist critter?
Ok I guess. Not bad.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 07:19

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 07:25

I'd wish, I don't have the patience.
Someone comes spitting towards me saying I'm blocking his way to revolution, I'll just be really angry. No chance of thinking straight.

Yeah...same here...

But In was indicating more your tendency to deify communists.

All the people standing in chains are like them.
Everyone.
If they weren't, they'd have been replaced. Not even assigned there in the first place
It's a common thing to have others provoking, it happens every time.
The "fat" guy with a paper in his hands, that's from the KKE ml party, a small maoist one. You can see the people with the flag. Near the end there is a hooded person at the front and another one behind is breaking the steps to get pieces of marble to throw.

Yeah...it is an interesting video...but you kind of missed the part where the PAME/KKE guys who I mantioned beat up the girl were not standing on the square...they were blocking the side street.

Now IF as you say they were assigned their place....then these people were standing there blocking others on orders of PAME/KKE....

Which kind of disproves the whole unprovoked attack arguments.

These people -well some of them- are from the "we're not paying" bloc. Of course just about everyone had gone inside that bloc provoking those around him to start shouting and then trying to provoke PAME to answer.
But as you can see no way would they ever do that to someone not being a direct threat to people's health.

All I see is people standing around holding a shouting match. Yes PAME/KKE got attacked in this video. I do not think it is unprovoked as I think blocking is a violent act in itself....and because of the actions that happened earlier in that day.

Especially the attack I mentioned from the very start of the debate on my friends.

Ok I guess. Not bad.

Good.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 07:29

From their site regarding now Thursday's events:

Η αρχή των επεισοδίων στις 20/10/2011 με το ΠΑΜΕ να αρνείται τη διέλευση προς τη Βουλή των υπολοιπων διαδηλωτών και των μπλοκς.

Βλέπουμε απλούς πολίτες που δεν ανέχονται το νταβατζηλίκι της ΚΝΑΤ (Κομμουνιστική Νεολαία Αποκατάστασης Τάξης), του ΚΚΕ ...που αντεκατέστησε επαξίως τα ΜΑΤ!
http://www.thermopilai.org/content/etsi-xekinesan-ta-epeisodiasten-apergia-tes-20102011

I'll translate, if you think I'm doing it wrong, google translate it.

It says:

Clashes on 20/10/2011 began with PAME refusing other demonstrators and blocs (that's a lie, only blocs weren't allowed in ours and for an excellent reason) access to parliament (a lie here as well).

We're watching ordinary citizens (like themselves I'd guess) who aren't putting up with KNAT's pimping (a play on KNE, the communist youth and MAT often used by anarchists), with KKE... that replaced the MAT

It even shows the same vid I linked above. It could even be them holding the flags and swearing, later throwing a rock or two.

Can anyone explain why the same nationalist group curses at PAME in February for opening the route to parliament and leaving and does so as well in October, but now, for staying there?
Are these the "ordinary people" they talk about?
Or are these the "revolutionaries" you talk about?

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 07:39

Watch this.
It's from a strike in February this year.
PAME then left leaving the parliament available to everyone who wanted to attack it, occupy it, burn it or do anything they might like.

And again people are at its sidelines, swearing, saying that leaving is a treason, that they should stand still.
4hjgNGBGPHE

The channel is this http://www.youtube.com/user/gkapog and it belongs to a site called http://www.thermopilai.org/.

Anyone wants to guess where they are on the political map?

People gathering around PAME and trying to provoke is a common ordeal. "Leftists", "far-rights", "anarchists".
They yell when PAME leaves and they yell when it doesn't because that is their job. To yell and provoke. That's why they're there, no other reason.

Yes...they yell because PAME/KKE inspite of their rethorics and self acclaimed mantle of a vanguard party always manages to find the tactic which is the least beneficial to creating a mass revolutionary movement.

They do not take a stand and they do not fight. And when do they do take a stand and when they do fight...they do so not against the state or the cops...but against other protestors.

That is your problem right there. The complete and utter incompatibility with their rethorics and their actions.

PAME/KKE functions like a sole entity in what is supposed to be a mass movement. They do their thing and only their thing and they leave or they monopolise and fight the wrong people.

The reason why the left is fragmented is exactly because of these kind of actions: induvidualist egocentrism within a larger struggle.

Parties who refuse to take a stand, who refuse to fight, who only serve their own self interest. Because make no mistake about it...that is exactly what PAME/KKE does...and in that it differs little from Euro Communist groups....and people see that. Just about everybody sees that...except for PAME/KKE. At leas I hope that is the case, because if it is in fact calculated strategy it makes it much, much worse.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 07:46

Yes...they yell because PAME/KKE inspite of their rethorics and self acclaimed mantle of a vanguard party always manages to find the tactic which is the least beneficial to creating a mass revolutionary movement.

They do not take a stand and they do not fight. And when do they do take a stand and when they do fight...they do so not against the state or the cops...but against other protestors.

That is your problem right their. The complete and utter incompatibility with their rethorics and their actions.

PAME/KKE functions like a sole entity in what is supposed to be a mass movement. They do their thing and only their thing and they leave or they monopolise and fight the wrong people.

The reason why the left is fragmentated is exactly because of these kind of actions: induvidualist egocentrism within a larger struggle.
So you're taking their side then?
Interesting. Isn't that what the communist party says is happening here?

ΤΙΜΗ ΜΑΣ Η ΠΙΣΤΙΣ ΣΤΟ ΕΘΝΟΣ
That's the motto of the site, next to a picture of a Leonidas' statue.
It means "OUR HONOR IS PUTTING FAITH IN THE NATION"
It's even written in "katharevousa" which you can imagine as the greek equivalent of elizabethan english.

Yeah, they do look like honest and militant revolutionaries. The go-to guys when you want to build a strong proletarian movement.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 07:53

So you're taking their side then?
Interesting. Isn't that what the communist party says is happening here?

That's the motto of the site, next to a picture of a Leonidas' statue.
It means "OUR HONOR IS PUTTING FAITH IN THE NATION"
It's even written in "katharevousa" which you can imagine as the greek equivalent of elizabethan english.

Yeah, they do look like honest and militant revolutionaries.

Your arguments become very confused (NOT confusing...but confused). you asked me a question why people are yelling at KKE/PAME. I answered that question by analising PAME/KKE behaviour from the video's you have given me, from its past behaviour and from what I have seen, heard and read on the 20th.

And now you try to insunate something here?

So it seems to me that all criticism on KKE/PAME is destined to be slandered by you as being something disingenuous. Rather than something you might ponder about and actually...you know...take into consideration.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 08:12

Your arguments become very confused (NOT confusing...but confused). you asked me a question why people are yelling at KKE/PAME. I answered that question by analising PAME/KKE behaviour from the video's you have given me, from its past behaviour and from what I have seen, heard and read on the 20th.

And now you try to insunate something here?

So it seems to me that all criticism on KKE/PAME is destined to be slandered by you as being something disingenuous. Rather than something you might ponder about and actually...you know...take into consideration.

I asked why radical nationalists yell at PAME in the same manner in every protest, no matter what it actually does.

If you weren't such a fanatic, you'd at least admit that part of the people who seem to oppose PAME are indeed fascists, that they have been persistent in doing it and they are often doing next to others, maybe even anarchists or "anarchists", while using their rhetoric.
And you might even question your tactics when there are nationalists and neonazis out there who are also saying what you are about PAME.

A "heterogenous" group like that was the one that attacked the demonstration with rocks and molotovs and things that leave smoke or create noise (gear the police has, not things sold everywhere).
So maybe, just maybe, you could say that the way the situation is presented by the party is not 100% fictional.

But no, you won't even do that.

FSL

23rd October 2011, 08:41

ysB_A8bahdY

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 10:51

I asked why radical nationalists yell at PAME in the same manner in every protest, no matter what it actually does.

No...you asked why "people" yelled that. You specifically used the word people. Not "radical nationalists"

As a reminder:

And again people are at its sidelines, swearing, saying that leaving is a treason, that they should stand still.

And to make it even more embarassingly obvious what you are trying to do here:

People gathering around PAME and trying to provoke is a common ordeal. "Leftists", "far-rights", "anarchists".

You also implicated leftists and anarchists.

So the radical nationalists singled out in your question is something you are now trying to sneak in, probably, because I called you on your asinine attempt to somehow try to paint me as in league with the radical nationalists.

If you weren't such a fanatic, you'd at least admit that part of the people who seem to oppose PAME are indeed fascists, that they have been persistent in doing it and they are often doing next to others, maybe even anarchists or "anarchists", while using their rhetoric.

Why should I do that?

1). Seeing as you dismissed my friends ordeal and being proud of a girl being beaten to such an extend that she has her eyesocket broken and otherwise called that whole ordeal a lie...I do not see why I have to admit anything to you.

But more importantly....

2). I do not have to admit anything of the sort because I have never denied that there were probably some fascists there.

What I did deny was the asinine accusations that the KKE/PAME opposed anarcho-fascists instead of a heterogenous group and the asinine attempt to paint that group as somehow all being agent-provocateurs and fascists.

And you might even question your tactics when there are nationalists and neonazis out there who are also saying what you are about PAME.

No...I do not have t question my tactics. Because wether or not fascists are saying the same thing about PAME/KKE as I am does not make the statement in and off itself untrue.

Now on the other hand...when burgeoisie parties are lauding the PAME/KKE as protectors of the state and parliament...THEN I would have serious reason to start doubting tactics. Because, regardless of if it was intended or not (and you know my opinion), that means you are doing somethig seriously wrong and it should be an eye opener and wake-up call.

A "heterogenous" group like that was the one that attacked the demonstration with rocks and molotovs and things that leave smoke or create noise (gear the police has, not things sold everywhere).
So maybe, just maybe, you could say that the way the situation is presented by the party is not 100% fictional.

No...I can not trust your party because of all their bullshit rethorics and indiscriminate labeling. Your party distorts so fucking much in the process of trying to profit from the whole event in media coverage and by slandering just about everybody who isn't them that I can no longer discern the truth form the fiction that is comming out of the KKE/PAME pipeline.

Everything the police has can be bought or obtained somewhere. Some people having that kind of equipment does not automatically mean they are working for the cops.

But no doubt there are some police informants and provocateurs in the ranks...as there will be no doubt about infiltration in the PAME/KKE. Perhaps even in leadership positions...as is very common with communist parties of every plumage in Europe....(and in and off itself says very little about the KKE other than that everybody needs to be critical to their own party and policy...and this is in fact a reason why I am no longer a member of any party)

But no, you won't even do that.

Well I just did. Never denied the possibility of there being police agitators btw. Just refuse to accepty that they all were based on the assessment of equipment.

But tell me...why should I? You have threatened my friends, you have called them liars, you called me a liar in relaying the events, you have said you were proud of the actions (including the breaking of the eye-socket of a girl) and you were generally very dismissive of the event.

So if you can not admit your PAME/KKE is not all that perfect and not all that blameless in all of this...why should I admit evenone thing to you?

RedSide

23rd October 2011, 13:57

I have to admit that I sincerely wanted to have a nice discussion with you, hindsight, but you've proven that you are more subjective and childish than the person that hit your friend. I'm sorry for your friend, but you keep repeating the "melodramatics" for 4 days in most of your posts (oh someone, who is obviously an animal, hit my friend, how bad is that) and when someone uses your way or arguing telling you that anarchists KILLED 3 workers with molotov coctails you respond with one-liners saying "people die." I hope you can understand how <insert insult> this is. I was really shocked by this comment tbh.:thumbdown:

You wanted to know why PAME did what they did on Thursday, and when I try to show you that if you think that PAME/KKE is shit, your anarchist buddies are 24323 times shittier, mostly consisting of lowlife scums and northen suburb kids who know that nobody can touch them because their rich parents will save them, you start whining about your friend, the existence of KKE, PAME and the fact the earth revolves around the sun :lol:. There is no reason for me to keep arguing about things so obvious that anyone with basic intelligence and objectivity can understand. Pointing at the giant elephant in the room, proved to be pointless.

khad

23rd October 2011, 14:06

Honestly, folks, even if the KKE's tactics were misguided and ineffectual, the sheer arrogance and chauvinism displayed towards the Greeks here is, to say the least, distasteful.

I understand that some of you may have friends who participated in the day's actions, and I can understand how one can have strong feelings about it. However, I also understand that the Greek people live in Greece and perhaps it is not the place for place for outsiders to tell them what to think about what happened to their homeland, much less send traveling contingents there with the intent of unleashing fire and mayhem.

Hell, even the 4th International and CWI in Greece have been condemning the attacks on the PAME demonstration. Maybe I'm being simple minded, but maybe the Greeks know something that we, as outsiders, do not.

I have to admit that I sincerely wanted to have a nice discussion with you, hindsight, but you've proven that you are more subjective and childish than the person that hit your friend. I'm sorry for your friend, but you keep repeating the "melodramatics" for 4 days in most of your posts (oh someone, who is obviously an animal, hit my friend, how bad is that) and when someone uses your way or arguing telling you that anarchists KILLED 3 workers with molotov coctails you respond with one-liners saying "people die." I hope you can understand how <insert insult> this is. I was really shocked by this comment tbh.

Yeah, this pretty much did it for me. Greek people don't exist so that international leftists of the internet can have their talking points and live out their fantasies of rebellion. It's their house, their struggle.

Tim Cornelis

23rd October 2011, 14:20

Great to know I will be purged as "fascist" after a Marxist-Leninist victory.

Ravachol

23rd October 2011, 14:40

All those who throw rocks and molotovs to a defenseless crowd with their faces hidden and while being afraid to come close, are thugs.
Their thugish behavior is the result of their luben proletariat class conscience.

Yeah and you guys are the left-wing of Capital appeasing the petit-bourgeoisie. I guess it's come down to this level ey? :rolleyes:

There were workers on one side and "hooded youth" alongside nationalists, your everyday hooligan and people who had things releasing smoke and police batons with them (and whom I won't name police infiltrators, I'm guessing you can buy at least some non-lethal chemical weapons in your closest mall nowadays, can't you?).

Actually, you can. Smokebombs are easy to make and teargas can be bought in some army surplus stores, the same goes for police batons. But whatever, the party has had it's spin to the story, Trotsky has been edited out of the photograph. The 'debate' is just going "no-oh, ye-es" circles now.

This is a Golden Dawn announcement. Mind you, a while back Golden Dawn who tries to portray itself as radical and pro-people, came out supporting refusal to pay taxes but opposing strikes saying they divide the nation.
Now they're saying they did protest but that they weren't organized in a block to not bring attention to themselves

http://xryshaygh.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/%CE%B7-%CE%B1%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%87%CF%81%CE%AE-%CF%88%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%BF%CE%B3%C E%AF%CE%B1-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%AF%C E%BA%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%87/

Translating with google

The translation is awful yes, but didn't want to translate it myself because I could easily see someone casting doubts. The juice is there. According to Golden Dawn, PAME acted together with the police protecting the regime because that's what communists do.
Remind you of anything?

Yes, of the KKE claiming the 'hooded ones' acted in concert with the 'systemic forces' to break up the "people's rally", that's what it reminds me of.

That's what communists are like mind you, they are "complete human beings", or the most complete I've ever seen.

Stop smoking crack and glorifying yourself, you sound like a cultist creep. Apart from this apeshit mumbling you're not even Communists.

Honestly, folks, even if the KKE's tactics were misguided and ineffectual, the sheer arrogance and chauvinism displayed towards the Greeks here is, to say the least, distasteful.

I understand that some of you may have friends who participated in the day's actions, and I can understand how one can have strong feelings about it. However, I also understand that the Greek people live in Greece and perhaps it is not the place for place for outsiders to tell them what to think about what happened to their homeland, much less send traveling contingents there with the intent of unleashing fire and mayhem.

Ah, another spin on the "you weren't there" story, this time covered in nationalist rethoric.

Yeah, this pretty much did it for me. Greek people don't exist so that international leftists of the internet can have their talking points and live out their fantasies of rebellion. It's their house, their struggle.

And that last scentence is exactly why others are concerned and give their opinion. It's not like this discussion matters at all with people in Greece saying OH LOOK AT HOW FSL OR HINDSIGHT OR RAVACHOL OR WHATEVER ON REVLEFT POSTED THIS REPLY, WE WILL TOTALLY CHANGE OUR COURSE OF ACTION. It's irrelevant as far as the real world is concerned but what Goti123 posted:

Great to know I will be purged as "fascist" after a Marxist-Leninist victory.

Remains relevant because what it does reveal is the "die partei hat immer recht", "purge the anarcho-fascists" blind point of view many MLs display during this events which lead me to the conclusion that perhaps considering them allies might not be wise.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 14:55

Yeah, this pretty much did it for me. Greek people don't exist so that international leftists of the internet can have their talking points and live out their fantasies of rebellion. It's their house, their struggle.

I am going to be adressing you first, because you have got to be fucking kidding me.

So apparantly in your opinion it is absolutely fucking a-okay to call me insane and a liar, to call my friends liars and to openly threaten them on a forum and to celebrate how proud you are to have seriously injured them....but it is NOT ok for me to take the position that what happened to those 3 people months ago was a shame but it is what sometimes happens?

THAT is what did it for you? Really Khad? Really? Are you going to be this obvious? Seriously? THAT is the only thing you decide to speak out on?

Now those people whose injuries have been applauded have been at the forefront ot EVERY major event in Greece in the last three years. Many of my group have been in Greece. I have been in Greece. We have been there when KKE was actively hunting anarchists throught the blocs of other people. So do NOT tell me about fantasies of rebellion....and what I can and can not be saying about the tactics of the KKE that day when we have been met with a barrage of distortions, evasions and downright propaganda smears by their ilk. Because it is fucking disgusting how the KKE-bandwagon here has been blaming anarchists (with or without "" ) for just about everything that happened without ONE shred of proof....simply on the basis of factless propaganda regurgitation....which is earilly reminiscent of how the bourgeoisie dismisses the entire left.

And you know damned well that it is not their house, their stuggle....those concepts do not and should not exist in the left. You know that their struggle is as much international as it is national. And you are very well aware that what is happening in Greece right now is having huge repercussions for the rest of the workers in Europe. Because we are ALL suffering from the incompetence of the bourgeoisie in our own countries, in Europe but also sure as hell from the fall out of their fuck ups in Greece. So their struggle is very much our struggle. Not only on te basis of just about every revolutionary theory out there...but also on the basis that our bourgeoisie is making us pay for the fuck up of theirs.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 15:26

I have to admit that I sincerely wanted to have a nice discussion with you, hindsight, but you've proven that you are more subjective and childish than the person that hit your friend.

You did? Because you could have fooled me. I have been giving you a very serious and honest reply to your post...and then you siply ignore parts of it in order to be able to somehow outsmart me later as you have yourself admitted. That is NOT the hall mark of an honest debate.

I'm sorry for your friend

Well...you are the first one to say they are sorry. Because the KKE propaganda machine in here has either dismissed it as lies, them as liars or simply applauded the fact that one of their heroes managed to break a girls eye socket.

, but you keep repeating the "melodramatics" for 4 days in most of your posts (oh someone, who is obviously an animal, hit my friend, how bad is that)

Yes. And do you have ANY clue why I keep repeating the event? Because you would if in fact you were interesting in honest debate.

But you are in fact not. So much was already clear to me.

- the item was news worthy at the beginning
- it disproves the KKE line that they were innocently standing there being asininely attacked for no reason other than provocation attempts
- it counter acts the KKE's propaganda machines continouos distortion of chronology of events which clearly shows that KKE/PAME was not innocent at all and not just standing around definding their own lines.

But above all

- we were continously and repeatedly show pictures of how badly those PAME/KKE workers were treated by those foul anarcho-trot-fascists and how horrible every poster was for critisising the KKE/PAME because of that. Fine! So what about the people who got injured BY PAME/KKE? Well those were continously dismissed. And eventually called lairs or the injuries were applauded.

And yes...you are damned fucking right I am going to repeatedly ask them for a comment and opinion on the event which disproves a vast amount of their claims. Because I am NOT about to get sidetracked by some tidal wave of distortion and white washing.

So you call that melodramatics...I call it calling the bullshit of the KKE supporters and their fantasie-fiction adventure of how marvelous and glorified their party is.

and when someone uses your way or arguing

Hold your horses their buddy boy...the only reason I argued this continuously was to counter the sib strories the KKE-fanboys posted here....which were nice and all..but NOT the whole story,
And I would think that if you were an honest debater you would be able to appreciate the fact that BOTH sides of the story are told.

So do NOT try to blame shift here.

telling you that anarchists KILLED 3 workers with molotov coctails you respond with one-liners saying "people die." I hope you can understand how <insert insult> this is. I was really shocked by this comment tbh.:thumbdown:

I told you it was a shame what happend....something which you people seem to cherry pick out of the whole equation. The fact of the matter is that the incident you refered to was an accident which was designated premeditated murder by the bourgeoisie because it happend during a riot. In fact you have allowed yourself to be swayed by bourgeoissie propaganda. Because for all the hours and days of investigation that was put into the case...there was NO proof that either it was really an anarchist and not some other group, induvidual or whatever,....or that it in fact was premeditated instead of an accident.

And yes...SHIT happens. People die sometimes.

Now I told FSL when he also tried t call me on the same shit you are trying to call me on...the bank workers response was to blame the banks lack of safety precautions..and subsequently organised a strike in order to enforce the banks safety protocols to be actually executed.

Now YOU try to split a very questionable event in there in order to prove how evil anarchists are...THAT was your intention...while in fact there has been bo shred of evidence to support teh allegation that anarchists were responsible other than the normal bourgeoisie tactic of blaming everything on anarchists.

So your entire posting of that event was a fucking smear and a dishonst attempt to slander an entire political tendency.

You wanted to know why PAME did what they did on Thursday, and when I try to show you that if you think that PAME/KKE is shit, your anarchist buddies are 24323 times shittier,

you did nort try to show anything...because you have no proof that in fact anarchists were involved in the attack...because they could not find the guilty party. An what was glaringly obvikous from the investigation and the day of the demo itself just about ever group in Greece walked through those streets.

But instead of blaming the outcoe of the day and the subsequent events on the absolutely horrible police aggression and esscalation....like you should have done...you instead try to blame anarchists and attempt to join the bourgeoisie bandwagon without one shred of evidence. Nice.

mostly consisting of lowlife scums and northen suburb kids who know that nobody can touch them because their rich parents will save them, you start whining about your friend,

You have utterly failed to do so. And your assessment of anarchists in Greece does not coincidde with my own experiences with the anarchist squatters I have met there.

the existence of KKE, PAME and the fact the earth revolves around the sun :lol:.

Show me ONE post I complained about the existence of KKE/PAME? I complained about their history of collaboration and breaking strikes, occupations and working for and in the government. As well as their attitude on the 20th.

YOU on the other hand have been very actively suggesting we should NOT consider PAME/KKE past because it is somehow irrelevant.

And I have on more than one occasion posted that I thought PAME/KKE looked promissing but thoroughly disappointed once again.

There is no reason for me to keep arguing about things so obvious that anyone with basic intelligence and objectivity can understand. Pointing at the giant elephant in the room, proved to be pointless.

Well...I have NOT seen you do any of that. Maybe if you try that my replies will be different....because you have ben FAR from objective and far from honest.

Sasha

23rd October 2011, 15:29

Lacrimi de Chiciură

23rd October 2011, 15:55

Still doesn't explain why a supposedly revolutionary communist group participates in and has seats in parliament. Doesn't explain anything as to why they knowlingly side with the state and forces of oppression. Face it, this failed stalinist party is still living in the world of soviet style communism. Something that does not represent the working class, or other socialists who want to implement a real socialist society not this farce. KKE openly condemns any popular uprising (the uprising at the polytechnic during the junta, the 2008 anarchist uprisings after police murdered a kid, etc.) How do they justify these things? We need to recognize that simply calling some statists authoritarian hacks a 'communist party' that does not make it so.. I'm sure if KKE were in power they would implement something similiar as to what Belarus has, or some other old soviet satellite state had as a 'communist state'.

Vladimir Lenin's Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder: Should we participate in bourgeois parliaments? (yes) (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm)

In all honesty, North American leftists probably just need to shut the hell up about "taking sides" here and get a grip on the global situation. It's not because there has been a lot of riots in Greece lately that the revolution will happen over night. Even if there was a communist revolution in Greece tomorrow, it would necessarily remain a state because a centralized apparatus of working class domination would remain a necessary tool to fortify, defend, and spread the gains of the revolution in the face of international bourgeois counterrevolution.

There has to be a balance between legal and illegal tactics. I am guessing though, that Greek comrades have already asked themselves, is it really feasible to carry out a successful armed struggle against the capitalist state right now? Is the international movement prepared to follow suit so that the revolution is not isolated and crushed? Seems pretty obvious that there is neither adequate organization nor class consciousness for that to happen right now.

Why didn't these supposed thousands of militant workers "burn the parliament" later when there wasn't a peaceful union rally there? If you are a leftist, you do NOT throw molotov cocktails into a crowd of COMMUNIST UNION WORKERS. I don't care how revisionist they are. Earlier this year the AFL-CIO and other Democrat-supporting unions were the driving force behind the movement centered around the Wisconsin state capitol. We revolutionary socialists didn't participate in that movement because we thought the AFL-CIO was going to launch the revolution tomorrow, but to show solidarity with the mass class struggle movement against the attacks on collective bargaining rights. It's called engaging people on their level--the transitional program. We didn't wear masks and throw molotovs at workers who mostly vote Democrat because we're not extremist lunatics. Radical ideas do not mean irrational actions. If someone had done that, my first instinctual suspicion would be that they were right-wing extremists!

North American anarchists seem to live vicariously through the actions in Greece in the same way that some Stalinists did for Gaddafi and (still do?) for the Libyan Jamahirriya. Ultimately we are not there and can't do much about it [revolution] EXCEPT, organize our own communities, workplaces, schools, and so on. Enough with keyboard warriorism! It is also telling that all of the RevLeft posters who are actually from Greece seem to side with the Reds on this one.

khad

23rd October 2011, 16:13

And you know damned well that it is not their house, their stuggle....those concepts do not and should not exist in the left. You know that their struggle is as much international as it is national. And you are very well aware that what is happening in Greece right now is having huge repercussions for the rest of the workers in Europe. Because we are ALL suffering from the incompetence of the bourgeoisie in our own countries, in Europe but also sure as hell from the fall out of their fuck ups in Greece. So their struggle is very much our struggle. Not only on te basis of just about every revolutionary theory out there...but also on the basis that our bourgeoisie is making us pay for the fuck up of theirs.
Your screaming impresses no one. That you have the temerity to equate your participation in the Greek events with the stakes involved for the Greek working class flies in the face of all objective reason and material fact.

And at the end of the day, it is the Greeks who have to live in their country, with whatever economic and political fuckups that involves. If parliament had been burned à-la-Reichstag (as your friends intended), it would be the working class of Greece which would suffer the crackdown from the bourgeois state. It would be the Greek working class which would be arrested and killed while the "international alliance of anarchists" could filter back to their decidedly safer and less fucked up homelands.

I'm not saying I agree with the KKE's tactics. In fact, I've stated clearly that I am in disagreement with them. However, the fact that the Greek left has overwhelmingly rallied against the rioters is a message that has to be respected. Even if that position is in some respects misguided or wrong, we must attempt to understand why such a position has been taken and what can be done to advance the case for revolution within a Greek working class and left that has overwhelming recoiled in horror from the actions.

This is done through reasoned discussion and facts, not through impassioned crying about how burning parliament would be a "great symbolic victory" and treating the Greeks as a bunch of children who can't even understand what they want.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 16:36

Vladimir Lenin's Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder: Should we participate in bourgeois parliaments? (yes) (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm)

In all honesty, North American leftists probably just need to shut the hell up about "taking sides" here and get a grip on the global situation. It's not because there has been a lot of riots in Greece lately that the revolution will happen over night. Even if there was a communist revolution in Greece tomorrow, it would necessarily remain a state because a centralized apparatus of working class domination would remain a necessary tool to fortify, defend, and spread the gains of the revolution in the face of international bourgeois counterrevolution.

There has to be a balance between legal and illegal tactics. I am guessing though, that Greek comrades have already asked themselves, is it really feasible to carry out a successful armed struggle against the capitalist state right now? Is the international movement prepared to follow suit so that the revolution is not isolated and crushed? Seems pretty obvious that there is neither adequate organization nor class consciousness for that to happen right now.

Why didn't these supposed thousands of militant workers "burn the parliament" later when there wasn't a peaceful union rally there? If you are a leftist, you do NOT throw molotov cocktails into a crowd of COMMUNIST UNION WORKERS. I don't care how revisionist they are. Earlier this year the AFL-CIO and other Democrat-supporting unions were the driving force behind the movement centered around Wisconsin. We revolutionary socialists didn't participate in that movement because we thought the AFL-CIO was going to launch the revolution tomorrow, but to show solidarity with the mass class struggle movement against the attacks on collective bargaining rights. It's called engaging people on their level--the transitional program. We didn't wear masks and throw molotovs at workers who mostly vote Democrat because we're not extremist lunatics. Radical ideas do not mean irrational actions. If someone had done that, my first instinct would be to suspect that they were right-wing extremists!

I agree with a lof of what you say abot theory....from oddly a ML perspective. Ideologically I disagree form an anarchist perspective.

Three notes here:

1). Nobody claimed the group to be a homogenous entity. In fact the only ones who have been persistently trying to do so were the KKE. They tried to paint all those opposing them as being anarcho-fascists. While in fact it was a heterogenous group which has been proven for a fact...beyond any doubt to consist of a multitude of factions, amongst which anarchists. but we have in fact no idea wether the molotov was thrown by an anarchist or member of other groups.

2). Which is also somehow which is continuously overlooked and therefore needs to be repeated constantly is that these attacks did not happen in a vaccuum. How much some would like to paint it as such that is not the case. PAME/KKE did not play a purely passive or defensive role here and they were actively blocking people and in some cases beating them. This is as much part of the narative of the day as the major skirmish happening later and plays an integral part in the escalation. This may not justify throwing molotovs...but it is something we can not forgo for the sake of focussing solely on the molotv incident and ignore all other events relevant to the situation.

3). This can also not be seen as happening purely within the context of that day itself. And quite obviously there are much misgivings about PAME/KKE's actions and behaviour in the past from just about any other faction...as much as PAME/KKE apparantly has their misgivings about just about any other faction. Now it is quite obvious that no group seems to really like each other...so I am not convinced taht these groups actually realise they belong to the same movement. And yes...I am aware this includes anarchists. But I am also aware, painfully, of the time we were being persecuted by KKE (and to think I was not even an anarchist then but a ML...just going with some anarchist buddies) and actively sought out and handed over to cops.

I personally agree that it is absolutely not done to attack comrades...or block them or try to enforce yoru tactics and strategies on them without having previously agreed to do so. But that does not exclude KKE/PAME from this. And I blieve in pro-active defense. Which means that if a party acts in such a fashion, which hinders and obstructs, I think it is allowed to fight the obstruction. Wether molotov cocktails should be included is a whole different level of debate...maybe it is a bit much.

On your account of balance between legal and illegal tactics I completely and unreservedly agree. There needs to be a balance. And that balance requires parties to not oppose each other, block each other and beat each other or hand each other over to the cops. As I have posted in another thread...organising and movement building are vital parts of the movement and as I have indicated I respect the success of some communist parties on that level. But on the other hand we need to organise action. This does not always have to be fruitful action. It does not always have to serve a direct purpose within the larger context of the immediate revolution...but it does need to take place to disrupt the burgeoisie economic and political process.

As I have previously argued...wether or not you agree with somebodies specific tendency does not negate the fact that when you are on a demo/strike/event/protest/riot/whatever...that you perhaps do not actively participate in what the others are doing but that you do not physically obstruct them and you do not stand aside when the cops want access but rather block them actively or passively and you provide shelter for comrades in need and you most certainly do not hand them over to the cops and actively seek them out.

Now quite obviously that did not happen in Greece on the 20th...with at least one notable exception: the EEK...which did block the cops...and which did provide aid and shelter to those who needed it. Something I think should be mentioned here....and should not be forgotten or overlooked.

And to answer your question about why there was no burning of parliament or occupation of parliament later.

After fighting a whole day and the square being on one side blocked by KKE/PAME and on the other side regularly atatcked by cops. KKE/PAME were moved of the sqquare under police protection. The police moved in directly afterwards. THere were skirmishes with the cops. But the amount of cops in the square was to much.

This was a whole different picture from that morining when there were barely a handful of cops deployed...they only arrived AFTER the first large clashes between the no pay movement and PAME/KKE. That was the whole point.

Now...I have no idea why the cops arrived two hours after PAME/KKE were massively gathering on the scene and only after PAME/KKE got into skrmishes...and were barely present before. We should ask the cops. Not insinuating anything here...just that the situation radically chaged during the course of the day.

PhoenixAsh

23rd October 2011, 16:52

Your screaming impresses no one.

I am not screaming. I am pionting out the dishonesty in the quoted comment when you quite obviously ignored much worse: direct threats to people and jubilation over people getting hurt.

Which IMO trumps saying: it is a shame but shit happens about three deaths in an accident which ultimately was a result of capitalist failures...you know...by the words of the bank employees.

And given your attitude to objectivism in previous debate that surprises the hell out of me comming from you.

That you have the temerity to equate your participation in the Greek events with the stakes involved for the Greek working class flies in the face of all objective reason and material fact.

I did not such thing. I merely countered your argument of "not being there" and pointed out your theoretical flaw in stating this was purely a Greek event. Which IMO it isn't

And at the end of the day, it is the Greeks who have to live in their country, with whatever economic and political fuckups that involves. If parliament had been burned à-la-Reichstag (as your friends intended), it would be the working class of Greece which would suffer the crackdown from the bourgeois state. It would be the Greek working class which would be arrested and killed while the "international alliance of anarchists" could filter back to their decidedly safer and less fucked up homelands.

In have clearly explained that the group consisted of Greek anarchists...by whom they were invited to join. Ultimately it was the groups plan...you know...being mostly Greeks I think they are fully aware of what that might entail for them.

Now...to clarify even further...we have always been there on invitation of Greek comrades. We are not some foreign group of agitators looking for some riot porn and some nice happy snapshot to put on some trophy wall. You might want to paint us as such....but taht is not going to fly.

Nor do I think you can say that they will get out of the country if shit hits the fan. They could very well have been arrested and they took that risk.

I'm not saying I agree with the KKE's tactics. In fact, I've stated clearly that I am in disagreement with them. However, the fact that the Greek left has overwhelmingly rallied against the rioters is a message that has to be respected. Even if that position is in some respects misguided or wrong, we must attempt to understand why such a position has been taken and what can be done to advance the case for revolution within a Greek working class and left that has overwhelming recoiled in horror from the actions.

I have never disagreed with this position.

This is done through reasoned discussion and facts, not through impassioned crying about how burning parliament would be a "great symbolic victory" and treating the Greeks as a bunch of children who can't even understand what they want.

How nicely dismissive of you. Because the fact remains that once again you dismiss the Greeks who DID want to burn parliament as somehow not being Greeks. Funny how that seems to work.

But more to the point I mentioned that in a debate about tactics. So do not try to paint me as being dismissive of what Greek people want or not..I am in fact one of the few who does not exclude any group i my argumens on the basis of their respective goals...and you know full damned well that I have argued again and again that PAME/KKE can stand aside if they do not think such actions are viable...but I dispute their right to block others from trying to do so.

Now the KKE-fan boys however have continuously dismissed everybody not in their group as being irrelevant. Perhaps you should reread the threads because it was kind of not so very hard to miss taht they did this and several members called them on it.

So it is a bit asinine of you to try to now blame shift and try to accuse me of doing so while I have not.

khad

23rd October 2011, 16:59

How nicely dismissive of you. Because the fact remains that once again you dismiss the Greeks who DID want to burn parliament as somehow not being Greeks. Funny how that seems to work.

Look, there were 500 rioters taking on more than 10,000 PAME demonstrators.

Add in all of the KKE, PAME, SYRIZA, ANTARSYA, and all of the Greek left, and you're talking about hundreds vs hundreds of thousands.

A reality check is in order.

Anarchist Skinhead

24th October 2011, 18:23

yeah khad, you could really do with reality check.. I am afraid though that this is not possible anymore though, you seem to be too far gone into "KKE virtual reality".

Vladimir Innit Lenin

24th October 2011, 18:25

So they've cleared that up. From their statement it's obvious that this wasn't an ideological-political disagreement. Obviously.

Fucking idiotic, yet sadly predictable, response from the KKE. Really disappointing, actually. The initial event was bad enough, but historical revisionism and baseless sloganeering about 'anarcho-fascists' makes us all look like knobends.

PhoenixAsh

24th October 2011, 18:44

Look, there were 500 rioters taking on more than 10,000 PAME demonstrators.

Add in all of the KKE, PAME, SYRIZA, ANTARSYA, and all of the Greek left, and you're talking about hundreds vs hundreds of thousands.

A reality check is in order.

The reality check is that almost everybody condemned the actions of KKE. Something which was lost in the white-wash campaign that only focussed exclusively on them also condemning the violence.

This however does nothing to disprove the events of that day and the role KKE played in the escalation that led up to the violence.

The fact remains that hunderds upon hundreds of thousnds or workers got goated into a peaceful and useless demonstration while at the same time the KKE/PAME blocked thousands of others from entry and access. That there were only 500 who actively and through DA tactics resisted this and fought skirmishes with KKE does not negate those facts.

Look, I am fully aware that you do not agree with the KKE tactics. But the fact that the KKE got attacked is something which did not happen out of the blue and it was not a vile attack on an innocent and defensive group only looking to demonstrate. It was an attack that grew out of the acts of PAME/KKE that day. Acts which are extremely questionable...not only based on the motivations and the ignoring of factual information disproving KKE explanations...but also based on the KKE's previous history.

Zukunftsmusik

24th October 2011, 19:06

At first i thought this could be an interesting thread, and at first it really was. Then people started digging themselves down in their own ideological trenches. We may be capitalism's grave diggers, but these ideological trenches could just as well become our own graves if people don't start thinking in stead of digging. Get out of your tendency trenches, analyse the KKE rhetorics, which was the point with this thread as far as I know.

No_Leaders

25th October 2011, 00:10

:thumbdown:
I have to admit that I sincerely wanted to have a nice discussion with you, hindsight, but you've proven that you are more subjective and childish than the person that hit your friend. I'm sorry for your friend, but you keep repeating the "melodramatics" for 4 days in most of your posts (oh someone, who is obviously an animal, hit my friend, how bad is that) and when someone uses your way or arguing telling you that anarchists KILLED 3 workers with molotov coctails you respond with one-liners saying "people die." I hope you can understand how <insert insult> this is. I was really shocked by this comment tbh.:thumbdown:

You wanted to know why PAME did what they did on Thursday, and when I try to show you that if you think that PAME/KKE is shit, your anarchist buddies are 24323 times shittier, mostly consisting of lowlife scums and northen suburb kids who know that nobody can touch them because their rich parents will save them, you start whining about your friend, the existence of KKE, PAME and the fact the earth revolves around the sun :lol:. There is no reason for me to keep arguing about things so obvious that anyone with basic intelligence and objectivity can understand. Pointing at the giant elephant in the room, proved to be pointless.
Read a book about the anarchist greek movement. At least they're fighting for real freedom not the farce you're buddies in KKE/PAME would give us. Hell those stalinists would line us up against the wall and have us shot and call us fascist 5th columnists. Oh wait they called us 'anarcho-fascists'. Typical stalinist bs. Not saying i agree wholey with anarchist tactics in the sense of the more inssurectionist type.. but they know what they want to achieve. They're learning from mistakes, in the past. I think the overlying issue is that the movement was heavily influenced in the 70's 80's and 90's by different anarchist currents. You had some groups more influenced by the Italian autonomists, then you had some more influenced by traditional anarchist thinking (proudhon, bakunin,kropotkin).

I think during the 2008 occupations there were attempts to push fourth a more worker based struggle. There were some unions who supported the anarchist insurrection, one member in particular refused to back down when told so by the KKE. Eventually an assailant threw acid on her face because of her support, and voting to get their union to go on strike. Anarchists realize they need to work on broader goals rather than just insurrection, i think it's just trying to get others to realize the importance of workers struggle as well. To dismiss them as a bunch of rich suburban kids is silly, and even if they were middle class kids does not mean that they can't be anarchists, does not make them any more revolutionary in their ideas and views, and what they're willing to do for their beliefs. KKE is a hack, a stalinist sham, what are they going to do if they gain power? Oh we saw that in the soviet union already.. yawn. Same old tried attempt.. No thanks. :closedeyes:

Nox

25th October 2011, 00:26

In a simple explanation, what exactly did the KKE do?

I couldn't make out exactly what happened and why they did it from the other thread...

Fietsketting

25th October 2011, 11:34

Iron Felix

25th October 2011, 12:11

We didn't know that.

FSL

25th October 2011, 16:52

I think during the 2008 occupations there were attempts to push fourth a more worker based struggle. There were some unions who supported the anarchist insurrection, one member in particular refused to back down when told so by the KKE. Eventually an assailant threw acid on her face because of her support, and voting to get their union to go on strike.
That union was in companies providing cleaning services, and its member Kouneva had acid thrown on her face after disagreements between the union and their boss.

Nothing to do with the December riots except that it happened in the same month and most certainly nothing to do with KKE "telling her to back down".
Maybe you should follow your advice and real a little more before throwing around accusations like that?

Cencus

25th October 2011, 17:27

In a simple explanation, what exactly did the KKE do?

I couldn't make out exactly what happened and why they did it from the other thread...

From my reading of this whole mess, they stopped all other groups (not individuals)from participating in a march towards the Greek parliament, violence was used to keep other groups from the demonstration. as you can guess folks on both sides got rather heated.

Later a group of about 400 of those who were not part of the KKE made their way to the parliament building, where they were blocked by members of KKE. Violence between this block and KKE flared, petrol bombs were thrown and allegedly KKE members handed a small number of people over to the police.

No_Leaders

25th October 2011, 18:54

That union was in companies providing cleaning services, and its member Kouneva had acid thrown on her face after disagreements between the union and their boss.

Nothing to do with the December riots except that it happened in the same month and most certainly nothing to do with KKE "telling her to back down".
Maybe you should follow your advice and real a little more before throwing around accusations like that?

Okay bud. Here's a direct quote of what i'm referring to:

"One of the occupations that of the central building of the General Confederation of Greek Workers, happened during the second week. It was started by some comrades who were already organizing base unions. They weren't explicitly anarchist unions, but anti-authoritarian workers unions. Some of these comrades had also been in the occupation of the Polytechnic. Their approach was to emphasize a class analysis, but not as a formulation for economic demands or a discourse focused strictly on work. They were representing themselves as workers in a revolt, talking about the insurrection, the prisoners. They wanted to mobilize working people but inside the insurrection. Konstantina Kuneva participated in the assemblies of this occupation, before she was attacked. When she went with her union to ask for solidarity from the General Confederation and to spread their text about the brutality of their bosses, the General Confederation asked them to denounce the occupation and of course Kuneva and her union refused. Afterwards they occupied the central offices of the railway, which contracts the private companies that employs the cleaners represented by Kuneva's union. And her union refused to cooperate with the Communist Party who also insisted on denouncing the occupation, or any other party. They were protesting with us, with the people who supported the insurrection, anarchists and the base unions. And in the workers' marches there were also violent conflicts, attacks on banks, fights with the police. The insurrection provided a basis for bringing anarchists, antiauthoritarians, and autonomists, closer with working people who are ready to fight."

That's from the book "We Are An Image From the Future" which is all filled with first hand accounts of people who participated in the insurrection. Of course when they say the Communist Party it's referring to KKE. They wanted her to denounce the occupation.. I didn't clarify everything in the first post since it had been awhile since i read this book but i clearly remembered some disagreement and unwillingness to gave in to their demand. So before you jump on me maybe follow your own advice bud.

tir1944

25th October 2011, 18:58

You sir, are an idiot.
Thank you dear sir for this eye-opening argument.

FSL

26th October 2011, 11:16

Okay bud. Here's a direct quote of what i'm referring to:

"One of the occupations that of the central building of the General Confederation of Greek Workers, happened during the second week. It was started by some comrades who were already organizing base unions. They weren't explicitly anarchist unions, but anti-authoritarian workers unions. Some of these comrades had also been in the occupation of the Polytechnic. Their approach was to emphasize a class analysis, but not as a formulation for economic demands or a discourse focused strictly on work. They were representing themselves as workers in a revolt, talking about the insurrection, the prisoners. They wanted to mobilize working people but inside the insurrection. Konstantina Kuneva participated in the assemblies of this occupation, before she was attacked. When she went with her union to ask for solidarity from the General Confederation and to spread their text about the brutality of their bosses, the General Confederation asked them to denounce the occupation and of course Kuneva and her union refused. Afterwards they occupied the central offices of the railway, which contracts the private companies that employs the cleaners represented by Kuneva's union. And her union refused to cooperate with the Communist Party who also insisted on denouncing the occupation, or any other party. They were protesting with us, with the people who supported the insurrection, anarchists and the base unions. And in the workers' marches there were also violent conflicts, attacks on banks, fights with the police. The insurrection provided a basis for bringing anarchists, antiauthoritarians, and autonomists, closer with working people who are ready to fight."

That's from the book "We Are An Image From the Future" which is all filled with first hand accounts of people who participated in the insurrection. Of course when they say the Communist Party it's referring to KKE. They wanted her to denounce the occupation.. I didn't clarify everything in the first post since it had been awhile since i read this book but i clearly remembered some disagreement and unwillingness to gave in to their demand. So before you jump on me maybe follow your own advice bud.

This says the attack on Kouneva is due to "supporting the insurrection", not because of her union actions, where?

Das war einmal

26th October 2011, 13:20

The KKE's demonstration appeared to be initially peacefull: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDNxAbDcfbo&feature=player_embedded

Al-jazeera reports that besides throwing some tear gas, police kept out mostly. Hence, it is proven bullshit that the communists collaborated with the cops. Seems to me they only wanted to keep hooligans out.

PhoenixAsh

26th October 2011, 15:18

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 17:03

Al-jazeera reports that besides throwing some tear gas, police kept out mostly. Hence, it is proven bullshit that the communists collaborated with the cops. Seems to me they only wanted to keep hooligans out.

They charged at other protesters alongside police.

but yeah this shouldn't be surprising. It's not like anyone should have expected KKE to not sell out, considering they have people who in parliament who voted for austerity.

Искра

26th October 2011, 17:07

And they were in two governments :)

Das war einmal

26th October 2011, 17:20

They charged at other protesters alongside police.

but yeah this shouldn't be surprising. It's not like anyone should have expected KKE to not sell out, considering they have people who in parliament who voted for austerity.

Source please

And even if. Doesnt give you the right to throw firebombs at their people. And I'm not going to read any more 'statements' because they're as predictable as the flamewar that has unfolded here.

A Marxist Historian

26th October 2011, 17:33

Source please

And even if. Doesnt give you the right to throw firebombs at their people. And I'm not going to read any more 'statements' because they're as predictable as the flamewar that has unfolded here.

Since nobody has claimed such a right, and indeed nobody really knows who threw the firebombs (though it probably was some anarchist or other it seems) this is irrelevant. Anarchists are not known for their discipline and close following of orders from their leaders. And police can infiltrate anarchists easily, due to anarchist philosophy.

-M.H.-

Das war einmal

26th October 2011, 17:36

since "you were not there" seems to become the godwin of these threads here by certain people who at the same time keep on screamin "YOU KILLED 3 WORKERS!!!", a statement by an actual employee of said bank about the death of the 3 bank workers: http://www.indymedia.org.nz/article/78563/employee-burnt-bank-speaks-out-yesterday

intrestingly enough he/she faults capitalism way before those who threw said molotovs

Excuse me but I think being there at the moment gives you indeed more credibility then from our perspective. How is that even close to a godwin?

I can't even imagine how I would act in this situation. It's not like in our country where apathy rules. Hence, I find the slogan 'Greece is everywhere' a bit ridiculous, no offense, Greece is NOT everywhere and certainly not here.

Das war einmal

26th October 2011, 17:40

Since nobody has claimed such a right, and indeed nobody really knows who threw the firebombs (though it probably was some anarchist or other it seems) this is irrelevant. Anarchists are not known for their discipline and close following of orders from their leaders. And police can infiltrate anarchists easily, due to anarchist philosophy.

-M.H.-

I agree.

That's why you can't dismiss the fact that their MIGHT be government provocateurs in this black block. I am not saying they were there but there's a fat chance they were there. That's a big difference between the PAME/KKE and this black block. We never know who joined the black brigades because they operate out of anonymity.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 17:51

Source please

I posted an article from Vice earlier in which the reporter mentioned communists charging alongside police officers.

And even if. Doesnt give you the right to throw firebombs at their people.

Gives us every right to criticize them as collaborators and traitors, though.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 17:52

That's why you can't dismiss the fact that their MIGHT be government provocateurs in this black block. I am not saying they were there but there's a fat chance they were there. That's a big difference between the PAME/KKE and this black block. We never know who joined the black brigades because they operate out of anonymity.

Honestly it's kind of easy to tell a cop from a regular anarcho-kid just from the way they're built.

Das war einmal

26th October 2011, 18:09

I posted an article from Vice earlier in which the reporter mentioned communists charging alongside police officers.

No I asked for a source proving cp members voting for austerity. I would charge in if people threw fire bottles at me aswell.

Gives us every right to criticize them as collaborators and traitors, though.

Yeah hollow words again. Not making an impact I'm sorry.

Das war einmal

26th October 2011, 18:10

Honestly it's kind of easy to tell a cop from a regular anarcho-kid just from the way they're built.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Please.

PhoenixAsh

26th October 2011, 18:22

No I asked for a source proving cp members voting for austerity. I would charge in if people threw fire bottles at me aswell.

Yeah hollow words again. Not making an impact I'm sorry.

I am not going to critisize the CJB because I was never a member of it....interesting note though that they work(ed) in the FNV, a bourgeoisie union. I know this is on a grassroots level and was at least a few years back in an attempt to radicalise the union...but yeah...well...

I was a member of the NCPN though and I think most of the old guard would not agree with your slightly overcasual dismissal there. I have no doubt the NCPN would not deny KKE/PAME's right to self defence. But I like to think that the party has not yet reached the level of reaction and stagnation to such an extend that they think overtly and covertly operating in concert with the cops is a particularly revolutionary thing to do.

The Greek police force has admitted it had agreements with KKE/PAME (see other thread), there are numerous accounts of the KKE/PAMe operating in concert with the police and them being protected by the police. THey were even marched of the square under police protection. There are numerous accounts, which are even admitted by Greek KKE/PAME supporters on this forum, that they handed people over to the cops.

I think that cn hardly be ignored.

A Marxist Historian

27th October 2011, 01:35

I agree.

That's why you can't dismiss the fact that their MIGHT be government provocateurs in this black block. I am not saying they were there but there's a fat chance they were there. That's a big difference between the PAME/KKE and this black block. We never know who joined the black brigades because they operate out of anonymity.

Well of course, the Greek police are infamous for infiltrating leftist groups and being provocateurs. No doubt there were police infiltrators within the Black Bloc, anarchists make that particularly easy, but you can't rule out police infiltration of anyone else there either, including PAME/KKE.

But even that is besides the point. You had open and aboveboard collaboration of the PAME/KKE marshals with the cops vs. everyone else there, and not just the anarchists, that's been captured on videotape and barely denied.

Indeed PAME/KKE were acting as cops themselves, ringing the parliament to protect it. In their leaflets beforehand they claimed they wanted to ring the parliament to prevent the cutbacks from being voted up. Instead it turns out they were ringing the parliament to *make sure* that nobody interfered with the cutbacks being voted up!

-M.H.-

Khalid

27th October 2011, 12:53

This video and article is all over the internet:

(Bad google translation)

Documentary: The "masked" giving orders to riot!

Take the young man with the blue cap and blue jacket. He holds a stick in his hands and be together with other "masked" who throw stones at riot squad located on the road Souris.

In the first seconds of the video, just a woman passes in front of the "hooded", he sits on the curb of the avenue Amalia. A few seconds later gets up and makes sense in the squad of riot police to retreat which is readily act.

Moves towards them making sense to others 'masked' to stop throwing stones while asking men riot to retreat and head to the street Philhellenes. Apparently Mr. Christos Papoutsis, Manolis and Lefteris Economou Otto (Minister, Secretary of Citizen Protection and a new General Secretary of Public Order and former Chief of Police) and the natural leadership of the Police under the new chief of Nicolas Papagiannopoulos are
exponentially once again. The action of the para with proof!

Detail: In the first seconds of the video, watch the white wire the intercom in the face of "masked".

KKE website says:

The leader of the hooded ones – and not only of them – sits opposite the riot police squad listening to instructions on the wireless. A few seconds afterwards, he stands up and shouts at the riot police to leave, showing them by which road. The riot police make an about turn and leave...

And the video:

ysB_A8bahdY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaeuV2RNL3o)