DPRK, Iran, etc.

[Susurrus]

What do you think should be done about such places? How would you go about building a revolutionary presence?

[Nox]

Trying to start a revolution in the DPRK or Iran is pointless, the revolution must start in a world superpower if a world revolution is to be achieved.

Ironically, China would be a perfect place along with the USA. I don't think Europe is a viable option any more.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Foreign intervention should be avoided in any country. As for revolution, I agree with Nox. Revolution must kick off in a series of powerful imperialist countries. Say the US, Germany, Britain, France, etc. The revolution needs to start from the countries which control most of the capital in the world, and then spread to the rest of the world.

A revolution in the US would shake the Capitalist system to the core. It does not necessarily have to start in the US, but the US is one of the main dominoes that needs to fall in order for a world Socialist revolution to take place.

[rundontwalk]

In the case of North Korea the current regime has to be overthrown first of all, what happens after the North and South get reunited I don't really know.

[Susurrus]

@Nox and VALTER:Fine then, what about after revolution in one or more major countries?

[ВАЛТЕР]

@Nox and VALTER:Fine then, what about after revolution in one or more major countries?

Organize an insurrection and then organize Internationalist brigades to help.

[rundontwalk]

Organize an insurrection and then organize Internationalist brigades to help.
You do realize that fighting an actual insurgency against the US Army and/or PLA on their home turf would be next to impossible and ultimately suicidal?

[ВАЛТЕР]

You do realize that fighting an actual insurgency against the US Army and/or PLA on their home turf would be next to impossible and ultimately suicidal?

Notice how I implied to do this AFTER socialist revolution in major nations such as the US and China. Organizing insurgency without the support of the people is suicidal anywhere either way.

so:

1) Socialist revolutions in major nations.
2) Spread ideas to other nations.
3)Begin the organization of anti-government propaganda and attempt to galvanize the public against the government.
4) Once the people support revolution, insurgency begins, striving for open class warfare. With the masses organized the government will capitulate.

[Susurrus]

What about the fact that these nations have a heavily brainwashed portion of the population and a very strong domestic military/secret police?

[ВАЛТЕР]

What about the fact that these nations have a heavily brainwashed portion of the population and a very strong domestic military/secret police?

Well, in that case we can only isolate them from the rest of the world. If the people won't support an uprising then we have no business getting involved. Other than perhaps getting illegal literature and information in and hoping to spread revolutionary ideas. You can only liberate people who wish to be liberated.

[Susurrus]

Well, in that case we can only isolate them from the rest of the world. If the people won't support an uprising then we have no business getting involved. Other than perhaps getting illegal literature and information in and hoping to spread revolutionary ideas. You can only liberate people who wish to be liberated.

What of the nukes? Also, in isolation the people of these countries will starve.

[ВАЛТЕР]

What of the nukes? Also, in isolation the people of these countries will starve.

They won't use the nukes, not if we have them as deterrents. Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.)

As for the people starving, they starve either way yet still believe they are well off.

Like I said, we cannot go and liberate a people who do not believe it is in their best interest. The people in the end liberate themselves, no outside force can force a public to submit to something they do not want.

We can only infiltrate revolutionary ideas and wait for them to spread.

[skizzy]

I find it odd no one has defended the DPRK yet.

[Susurrus]

I find it odd no one has defended the DPRK yet.

I find it an improvement over the usual for Revleft.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

I find it odd no one has defended the DPRK yet.

I would, but I'm hesitant. I think the DPRK has potential, but I'm not all that sure about that. Seems a bit... totalitarian. Not sure though, I've talked to someone who has been there... they say it doesn't seem all that bad. Not sure if that's quite accurate though.

[Susurrus]

seems a bit... Totalitarian.

understatement of the fucking century.

[skizzy]

understatement of the fucking century.
To be honest, Kim ill sung and Kim jong il are two people I respect. They have done a lot.
It goes thrown around that they just randomly murder people. I have friends who have been there, and to other parts of the country ( yes you can go outside pyongyang). Most of what people say is retarded at best. They do have elections, go look for video for proof. Yeah Kim run everything, but people do have a say there. Just because it has its issues doesnt mean hes some horrid dictator.

[Susurrus]

To be honest, Kim ill sung and Kim jong il are two people I respect. They have done a lot.
It goes thrown around that they just randomly murder people. I have friends who have been there, and to other parts of the country ( yes you can go outside pyongyang). Most of what people say is retarded at best. They do have elections, go look for video for proof. Yeah Kim run everything, but people do have a say there. Just because it has its issues doesnt mean hes some horrid dictator.

Yes, you can go, escorted, to certain, prescribed areas outside of pyongyang. Yes, there are elections; you can vote yes or no on a single candidate, and if you answer no you are arrested.

[skizzy]

Yes, you can go, escorted, to certain, prescribed areas outside of pyongyang. Yes, there are elections; you can vote yes or no on a single candidate, and if you answer no you are arrested.

Thats, not true at all. They have multiple parties. I thought on revleft you would at least do research and not believe the bs fed to you.

Parties.
Workers' Party of Korea (Chŏson Rodong-dang)
Korean Social Democratic Party (Chŏson Sahoeminju-dang)
Cheondoist Chongu Party (Ch'ŏndogyo Ch'ŏng'u-dang)
General Association of Korean Residents in Japan (Ch'ongryŏn)

You can even find videos of local elections...

[Susurrus]

Thats, not true at all. They have multiple parties. I thought on revleft you would at least do research and not believe the bs fed to you.

Parties.
Workers' Party of Korea (Chŏson Rodong-dang)
Korean Social Democratic Party (Chŏson Sahoeminju-dang)
Cheondoist Chongu Party (Ch'ŏndogyo Ch'ŏng'u-dang)
General Association of Korean Residents in Japan (Ch'ongryŏn)

You can even find videos of local elections...

The one candidate for election is determined by the WPK, even if they are from a different party. And to vote against a candidate, you have to visibly go to a separate booth to cross out the name before putting in in the ballot box.

[skizzy]

The one candidate for election is determined by the WPK, even if they are from a different party. And to vote against a candidate, you have to visibly go to a separate booth to cross out the name before putting in in the ballot box.

and you have seen this? Iv seen the elections taking place. They have framed photos of each party rep and under it is a box. You put in the vote for the one you want. Where do you get this?

[Susurrus]

and you have seen this? Iv seen the elections taking place. They have framed photos of each party rep and under it is a box. You put in the vote for the one you want. Where do you get this?

Gee, how strange that official, government approved footage shows everything as perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKyC9VEs6CA&feature=related

[skizzy]

Gee, how strange that official, government approved footage shows everything as perfect.



So you have no proof, and you are running on assumption.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

What is the percentage of people who vote for the winning candidate in each election? Is it somewhere around 98%? . I guess we can ascribe this to the KWP and its allied party's knack of being able to find just the right candidate at every election.

[skizzy]

What is the percentage of people who vote for the winning candidate in each election? Is it somewhere around 98%? . I guess we can ascribe this to the KWP and its allied party's knack of being able to find just the right candidate at every election.

Around 80 of the people on the Assembly are not KWP members and a few are independent of all parties.
This is really the last place I though people would just make blatant assumptions about someplace.

[Susurrus]

So you have no proof, and you are running on assumption.

No, I posted a video, and here's an article.

http://www.asgp.info/Resources/Data/Documents/CJOZSZTEPVVOCWJVUPPZVWPAPUOFGF.pdf

[Susurrus]

Around 80 of the people on the Assembly are not KWP members and a few are independent of all parties.
This is really the last place I though people would just make blatant assumptions about someplace.

Wrong.
Election results.
Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland: 687
Distribution:
Workers' Party of Korea (Chŏson Rodong-dang):606
Korean Social Democratic Party (Chŏson Sahoeminju-dang): 50
Cheondoist Chongu Party (Ch'ŏndogyo Ch'ŏng'u-dang):22
General Association of Korean Residents in Japan (Ch'ongryŏn): 6
Independents: 3

Total number of seats(turnout 99.98%):687

[skizzy]

No, I posted a video, and here's an article.



That article is almost 20 years old. A lot has changed in 20 years. The video is Japanese actors making what they say goes on, it even says that in the description. The Japanese hate N.Korea. Would you take what a S korean says as fact about N Korea? Im not saying they have a perfect system. All im saying is they are made out to be some horrible people. This isnt true.

I guess agree to disagree, its a hard subject to have definitive proof either way.

[Susurrus]

That article is almost 20 years old. A lot has changed in 20 years. The video is Japanese actors making what they say goes on, it even says that in the description. The Japanese hate N.Korea. Would you take what a S korean says as fact about N Korea? Im not saying they have a perfect system. All im saying is they are made out to be some horrible people. This isnt true.

I guess agree to disagree, its a hard subject to have definitive proof either way.

It was as describe by a North Korean refugee, who was the one speaking in the video.

[skizzy]

Wrong.
Election results.
Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland: 687
Distribution:
Workers' Party of Korea (Chŏson Rodong-dang):606
Korean Social Democratic Party (Chŏson Sahoeminju-dang): 50
Cheondoist Chongu Party (Ch'ŏndogyo Ch'ŏng'u-dang):22
General Association of Korean Residents in Japan (Ch'ongryŏn): 6
Independents: 3

Total number of seats(turnout 99.98%):687
Thats 81 non WPK members...thats what i said. Also those parties are not at all related. Cheondoist is a religious party...you think that maybe most people DO support there government there. If 81 people from other parties can get elected how is it all fixed?

[skizzy]

It was as describe by a North Korean refugee, who was the one speaking in the video.

Iv read tons of "refugee accounts" that were bs and made up and later found to be lying. He said she said, may work for you, but not me. Sorry

[Susurrus]

Thats 81 non WPK members...thats what i said. Also those parties are not at all related. Cheondoist is a religious party...you think that maybe most people DO support there government there. If 81 people from other parties can get elected how is it all fixed?

No, you said 80%. Big difference. Those parties are all members of the "Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland," which is dominated by the WPK, which reviews all the candidates that go to elections, which can't be voted against.

[skizzy]

No, you said 80%. Big difference. Those parties are all members of the "Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland," which is dominated by the WPK, which reviews all the candidates that go to elections, which can't be voted against.
um no.. i said


Originally Posted by skizzy
"Around 80 of the people on the Assembly are not KWP members and a few are independent of all parties.
This is really the last place I though people would just make blatant assumptions about someplace."

80 of the people.. not percent.. what are you talking about?

[Susurrus]

um no.. i said


Originally Posted by skizzy
"Around 80 of the people on the Assembly are not KWP members and a few are independent of all parties.
This is really the last place I though people would just make blatant assumptions about someplace."

80 of the people.. not percent.. what are you talking about?

Oh, sorry, misread that.

[skizzy]

Oh, sorry, misread that.

Its fine, Like I said though. Agree to disagree. I personally like kim il sungs ideas and writings. I can understand why a lot of people dont like Jong il. Its one of those things that will probably never have a straight 100 percent truth behind it.

[La Peur Rouge]

"Workers of the world, Dear Leader will show you the way! Also forget whatever I said, the military is the revolutionary class." - Karl Marx

All you reactionary punks who think the DPRK is anything less than a Glorious Worker's Paradise, go to OI where you belong. You're all probably just anarchist hooligans anyway.

/end shitty joke

[Susurrus]

Its fine, Like I said though. Agree to disagree. I personally like kim il sungs ideas and writings. I can understand why a lot of people dont like Jong il. Its one of those things that will probably never have a straight 100 percent truth behind it.

Well, the fact that Kim Il Sung was installed by the USSR(he didn't even speak Korean very well at the time) when it drove the Japanese out speaks against him somewhat, and it's not what someone says, but does that determines him. For instance, if we eere to believe that capitalist actions were in accordance with their writings, where would we be?

[Susurrus]

You're all probably just anarchist hooligans anyway.

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/127095609349.jpg
I sincerely hope you're joking right now.

[La Peur Rouge]

I sincerely hope you're joking right now.

I am. I thought the Marx quote would have given it away.

[The Jay]

"Workers of the world, Dear Leader will show you the way! Also forget whatever I said, the military is the revolutionary class." - Karl Marx

All you reactionary punks who think the DPRK is anything less than a Glorious Worker's Paradise, go to OI where you belong. You're all probably just anarchist hooligans anyway.

lol that's awesome. you deserve a cookie.

[RED DAVE]

I think the DPRK has potentialPotential for what?

RED DAVE

[Le Socialiste]

What do you think should be done about such places? How would you go about building a revolutionary presence?

It's a matter of consciousness, of explaining the nature of the class system and the institutions that support it. It's easier said than done, guiding the working-class towards a realization of its own revolutionary potential. Certain areas of the world are under higher degrees of authoritarianism than others, with varying levels of acceptance by the general population. If you can link the issues and troubles of the oppressed to their source - the oppressor - then you can begin the process of spreading and fostering awareness. No one wants to be oppressed, yet for all intents and purposes we are. By shining a light on the reasons behind such an assertion, you stand to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of those hearing you (that is if they allow you to get that far). One of the primary goals in countries with a heavy authoritarian presence is to shake (and, if possible, break) the faith people have in the prevailing system.

Of course, a revolution built and forwarded by worker self-emancipation should (and must) be accompanied by an international sense of solidarity. This solidarity can come in the form of written and/or spoken encouragement, but true change comes through physical effort. Look at the events in North Africa and the Middle East, as well as the OWS demonstrations and the growing militancy amongst broad layers of the international working-class. The events early in the year have sparked further unrest and disobedience on the part of the public throughout the world. Granted, these movements have either been hijacked by the powers that be (such as Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya) or have yet to include broader sections of the working-class and/or take on a firmly working-class character. Some have been defeated or been allowed to die (i.e. fading away or channelled by seemingly 'pro-worker' institutions into harmless forms of dissent). The reasons behind these are many, but at their root is the dissatisfaction of the masses and their profoundly international character.

If things continue to deteriorate, exposing the programs and policies of the political-financial elite in the process, these events can (and mostly will) spark newer, more militant forms of action. It's a progression that holds the potential for radicalization. This won't occur, however, without the presence of the left within the movement(s); not as leaders, nor as some 'revolutionary' vanguard, but as contributors and members of the struggle, side by side with the workers - not in front of them. If states such as Iran or the DPRK (provided they continue to exist in their present form in the event of a word-wide workers' rebellion) should experience dissent within their publics, then it bears watching to see what kind of character such a movement would take. The workers will usually strive for a similar outcome if they see, say, another nation's working-class rise up and succeed. Historically this has seemed to be the case, albeit with different outcomes.

[ComradeOmar]

Revolution:rolleyes:. Wake Up! True communism can never be achieved

[tir1944]

It's quite stupid to put the DPRK and Iran in the same basket."Such places".:rolleyes:
Just saying.

[Le Socialiste]

Revolution:rolleyes:. Wake Up! True communism can never be achieved

1) How do you define 'True Communism'?

2) What, then, are we fighting for?

[ComradeOmar]

1) How do you define 'True Communism'?

2) What, then, are we fighting for?
True communism as in Marxism. As regards to what these communists are fighting for, I'm assuming they are just fighting for power for themselves that is if they manage to overthrow a government first.

[Susurrus]

It's quite stupid to put the DPRK and Iran in the same basket."Such places".:rolleyes:
Just saying.

How so? Both are tyrannical dictatorships that try to brainwash the population with religious or psuedoreligious propaganda and have a strongish military and nukes.

[tir1944]

How so? Both are tyrannical dictatorships that try to brainwash the population with religious or psuedoreligious propaganda and have a strongish military and nukes.
This "definition" can be applied to a plethora of countries...
Also Iran doesn't have nukes.
The problem is that some people here think that we should "take a stand" on the DPRK AND Iran,ignoring the vast differences between pretty much everything regarding these countries,starting from the existing material conditions etc.
"Dictatorship",BTW,is an awfully poor term.

[skizzy]

This "definition" can be applied to a plethora of countries...
Also Iran doesn't have nukes.
The problem is that some people here think that we should "take a stand" on the DPRK AND Iran,ignoring the vast differences between pretty much everything regarding these countries,starting from the existing material conditions etc.
"Dictatorship",BTW,is an awfully poor term.

Indeed, in the US , a corrupt 2 party system occurs. Is it any better? Both are pretty much the same BS and only benefit the rich. Americans are brainwashed to think socialism is the demon just waiting to kill off the "american dream".

[RedGrunt]

Indeed, in the US , a corrupt 2 party system occurs. Is it any better? Both are pretty much the same BS and only benefit the rich. Americans are brainwashed to think socialism is the demon just waiting to kill off the "american dream".

I regard both as "Capitalist Party".

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKVwBPzHfUTIDrFUAKOfkkPbsa8diIf W9pF2urJZWSTEzmk23O

[skizzy]

I regard both as "Capitalist Party".

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSKVwBPzHfUTIDrFUAKOfkkPbsa8diIf W9pF2urJZWSTEzmk23O

I agree, and thats the problem. The choice doesnt really exist. Anything not pro capitalist and laughed at and ignored.

[RedGrunt]

Tis' the reason why the "one-party dictatorships" drivel so amusing. If they only knew..

Likewise, "dictatorship" and "totalitarian" are words packed with an emotive charge.

[Susurrus]

This "definition" can be applied to a plethora of countries...
Also Iran doesn't have nukes.
The problem is that some people here think that we should "take a stand" on the DPRK AND Iran,ignoring the vast differences between pretty much everything regarding these countries,starting from the existing material conditions etc.
"Dictatorship",BTW,is an awfully poor term.

Hence the "etc"

That's a point I think is unprovable at this point, due to unavailability of unbiased info on either side, so I'll drop it.

So we should ignore both?

Fine then, corrupt authoritarian capitalist regime

[aristos]

What do you think should be done about such places? How would you go about building a revolutionary presence?

This cannot be answered arbitrarily but depends on where the revolution is spreading from.

Worldwide revolution will have to first establish a revolutionary hub from which to spread forth. Not every place is a potential revolutionary hub. Potential hubs are US, Russia, the Arab world, Africa, to a lesser extent South America and Europe. NK and Iran cannot be such hubs.
How the revolution spreads to NK or Iran would then depend on both the hub as well as the stage of progress.
However, as a guess, it is more likely for the revolution to spread to the DPRK through forging close economic ties and converting the regime through cooperation, making it open up (carrot).
In the case of Iran it would probably be the opposite (stick) - an actual violent insurgency. This, however, will also have to be prepared in advance by cosying up to the Iranian regime, winning its confidence and infiltrating key establishments. Interestingly enough, contrary to most previous revolutionary struggles it is conceivable that the female population will be leading the insurgency in Iran rather than the male.