Non-Leninist Marxist Parties?

[YKTMX]

Most Marxists parties I have ever came into contact with are either pro-Lenin and anti-Stalin or pro-Lenin and Stalin. I have never came across a classical Marxist party who reject the whole notion of Leninism i.e. Democratic Centralism, Vanguardism, Dictatorship of the Proletariat. I know we have a particuarly vocal anti-Leninist Marxist on here, his kind though, seem to in somewhat short supply. Have I just not seen enough Marixst parties or is their some Leninist conspiracy sapping the minds of young Socialists and Communists. I would be interested in any examples of these parties if they do exist.

Anyway, Long Live Lenin! :D

[commie kg]

http://www.slp.org

They supported the Bolsheviks in the beginning, but changed their minds later. :huh:

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

In first place, Marxists (such as Redstar2000) do advocate a dictatorship of the proletariat.
If you do not, however, then you are an anarchist. There are plenty of parties for you.
If you have read the Communsit Manifesto, then you would know that Marx and Engels also advocate not only a dictatorship of the proletariat, but also centralism.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
This is directly from the Communist Manifesto.

[Xvall]

There are pleanty, I'm sure. Just look.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 4 2003, 09:29 PM
There are pleanty, I'm sure. Just look.
Thanks for that peril of wisdom comrade.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 09:54 PM
Thanks for that peril of wisdom comrade.
that is sarcasm if i ever seen/saw it

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 12:14 PM
Most Marxists parties I have ever came into contact with are either pro-Lenin and anti-Stalin or pro-Lenin and Stalin. I have never came across a classical Marxist party who reject the whole notion of Leninism i.e. Democratic Centralism, Vanguardism, Dictatorship of the Proletariat. I know we have a particuarly vocal anti-Leninist Marxist on here, his kind though, seem to in somewhat short supply. Have I just not seen enough Marixst parties or is their some Leninist conspiracy sapping the minds of young Socialists and Communists. I would be interested in any examples of these parties if they do exist.

Anyway, Long Live Lenin! :D
Socialist Party USA (http://www.sp-usa.org)

[kylie]

Socialist Party USA
I think he means proper Marxist parties, not reformists.

If you class them as being Marxist, theres all the Anarchist organisations. I don't think they actively oppose or try to argue against Leninism, but the CPGB doesn't seem to support it either. I think its the same for the YCL too, and the Revolutionairy Communist Group.

Heres links to those three in particular:
http://www.rcgfrfi.easynet.co.uk
http://www.ycl.org.uk
http://www.cpgb.org.uk
Though i don't know that much about the YCL or CPGB, so they may be reformist/leninist and its that i just havent noticed.

[Kez]

www.newyouth.com (http://www.newyouth.com)

www.marxist.com (http://www.marxist.com)

[Xvall]

I can look for Non-Leninist Marxist parties, but most Marxists parties never make it a point to be anti-leninists. I could also tell you to look for them yourself. Which I will. Look for them yourself.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 08:48 AM

http://www.cpgb.org.uk


Communists operate according to the principles of democratic centralism. Through ongoing debate we seek to achieve unity in action and a common world outlook. As long as they support agreed actions, members have the right to speak openly and form temporary or permanent factions.

Sounds pretty Leninist to me.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 07:30 PM
www.marxist.com (http://www.marxist.com)
Hmm, that site is Trotskyist, hence, Leninist. Let's get this straight, I don't mean Leninist in the Stalinist orthodox sense, I mean Leninist as in the general themes of Lenin's theory.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 02:48 AM
Socialist Party USA
I think he means proper Marxist parties, not reformists.

I wouldn't say we are reformists but on second thought I wouldn't really say we are "proper Marxists" either. :D

[Charred_Phoenix]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 09:16 PM
If you do not, however, then you are an anarchist. There are plenty of parties for you.

I fail to see how simply not believing in Dictatorship of the Proletariat makes you an anarchist. You're certainly not an orthodox Marxist, but one thing you have to remember about Marx is that he was a /very/ politically flexible man (in his own words: "I am no Marxist"[These may not have been the /exact/ words he used, but the meaning was the same.]), what he advocated then is no doubt very different from what he would be advocating /now/. Whether Dictatorship of the Proletarian would have been part of his ideology were he formulating it today, we will never know!

Note: I personally /do/ believe in the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, but I also believe that classifying anyone who does not adhere strictly to every detail of the theories outlined in Das Kapital and The Communist Manifesto as an anarchist is simply retardation of the socialist and communist movements. Also take note of the fact that when writing this post, I intended no offense or disrespect; I am afraid I am not always the most socially adept person.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Marx in fact did mention the dictatorship of the proletariat in the Communist Manifesto, so we do know that it is inclusive in his ideology. He also clearly advocated democratic centralism (not in those words, but clearly nevertheless). Many people who dissagree with democratic centralism still call themselves Marxists, but wanting to rush directly to communism with no dictatorship of the proletariat absolutely makes you an anarchist. Otherwise, what is an anarchist?

[SonofRage]

I don't believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat but I'm not an anarchist: I'm a Democratic Socialist. Also, somene already mentioned the SLP which is Marx0st-DeLeonist and they also do not believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat if I'm not mistaken.

[Charred_Phoenix]

Anarchism is "above all denial of any state power and the claim to absolute freedom for the individual." [N.Y. Kolpinsky in his preface to Anarchism and Anarcho-syndicalism a collection of works by Marx, Engels and Lenin regarding Anarchism.]

Besides, if not supporting Dictatorship of the Proletarian makes you an anarchist, almost everyone in the world is an anarchist...

Also, where exactly did I suggest that Marx did not mention Dictatorship of the Proletarian?

[ernestolynch]

Hey, Trotboy - why don't you just skip the next 2 years and join the Liberal-Democrats straight away? Save a lot of trees chopped down to make crappy papers that no-one will buy outside Tescos....

[Ian]

:lol: Harsh Ernesto, Harsh.

A non-leninist group which is pretty old can be found here www.worldsocialistmovement.com (http://www.worldsocialistmovement.com)

[Weidt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 03:48 AM
Socialist Party USA
I think he means proper Marxist parties, not reformists.
The Socialist Party USA is a multi-tendency political party; as such, its membership includes social democrats, Greens, Christian socialists, Marxists, Trotskyists, anarchists and syndicalists. Indeed, the National Committee has been and is dominated by the moderate-wing of the Party; however, there is a growing shift within the SP towards to the left. At the 2003 National Convention, the Presidential ticket vote came down between a moderate (Walt Brown) and a radical (Eric Chester). The vote was 37 to 33, which the moderates won, but by a slim margin. I expect a further shift in the SP by the next National Convention.

In fact, the left-wing is currently organizing a tendency to re-claim the legacy of Eugene V. Debs and bring about a working class orientation within the SP where radical reforms are embraced with a perspective on revolutionary socialist transformation of society. A socialist must not only be the best fighter for radical reforms, but the greatest advocate of social revolution!

Once our tendency is finalized in the next weeks, I will post out mission and points of unity here for folks to read.

[SonofRage]

Good to see you posting again Weidt, we need more SP-USA guys here. I think the fact that the party is multi-tendency throws some people off because they can't put us in a nice little category.

I kind of think I'm multi-tendency within myself! :D

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 12:55 AM
Hey, Trotboy - why don't you just skip the next 2 years and join the Liberal-Democrats straight away? Save a lot of trees chopped down to make crappy papers that no-one will buy outside Tescos....
Your lack of wit compliments your lack of intelligence beautifully, congratulations.

[ernestolynch]

You've still got your poem by former NSDAP member Niemoller wrong btw. ;)

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 06:17 PM
You've still got your poem by former NSDAP member Niemoller wrong btw. ;)
Yes, you have pointed this out several times before without specifiying what part I have got wrong. Please, enlighten me.

[Scottish_Militant]

Lynch you vile little rat, I thought I could smell you nearby :lol:

[ernestolynch]

Fuck you Twotbot.

Anyway - the poem goes:

Communists
Socialists
Trades Unionists
Jews.

[Weidt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:48 PM
Good to see you posting again Weidt, we need more SP-USA guys here. I think the fact that the party is multi-tendency throws some people off because they can't put us in a nice little category.

I kind of think I'm multi-tendency within myself! :D
Well... I disagree. I find it actually positive to see few SPUSA members on this forum as one could assume they are busy and productive away from the internet. We need to be pro-active locally and frankly, these forums serve no purpose other than giving folks like myself a moment to sit back and relax. This forum is nothing more than pure entertainment.

Not to be harsh, but forums like this are basically comprised of youth with little to no political experience or socialist knowledge. I agree with Antonio Gramsci that all humans are intellectuals, in the sense of potential, but there lies the issue at hand -- folks need to recognize that potential, embrace it and agitate for socialism. This cannot be done chatting on a forum of basically like-minded people who sound like fratboys more than intellectual working class socialist revolutionaries.

[SonofRage]

hahaha good point Weidt!