KKE's actions on October 20, thread II

[Sentinel]

Continued from here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/kke-assisting-police-t163031/index31.html). The general verbal warning is still in effect; no flaming or personal attacks, flamebaiting, death wishes etc -- all of which we unfortunately saw in the last thread -- will be tolerated, and will lead to immediate administrative action.

No matter how strong feelings we may have over the events the board rules still apply. What we want and need to see here is a constructive, calm and rational discussion.

[DaringMehring]

Have to cede to the Greeks who are much closer to the situation. And -- it does say something that AttackGr, who has attacked the KKE in the past, sides with them here. Revolution is never simple.

[piet11111]

Have to cede to the Greeks who are much closer to the situation. And -- it does say something that AttackGr, who has attacked the KKE in the past, sides with them here. Revolution is never simple.

What Hindsight20/20 told about his friends is not enough ?

The many pictures of KKE and PAME standing with their backs towards the police are not enough ?

That they left under police protection does not tell you anything ?

The betrayal of the political party's and unions is plain for everyone to see and now the working class needs to take matters into their own hands.

That there even was a general strike is due to pressure from below not because the unions wanted one.

[Ravachol]

Have to cede to the Greeks who are much closer to the situation. And -- it does say something that AttackGr, who has attacked the KKE in the past, sides with them here. Revolution is never simple.

AttackGr attacked the KKE in the past but he also claims to have been a former KNE member. It seems that he made a turn some time ago from nihilism to becoming ML, so him siding with KKE isn't that surprising actually.

Also:

http://linksunten.indymedia.org/image/48973.jpg
http://linksunten.indymedia.org/image/48974.jpg

How convenient, having your static demo right along the key entry and exit points of the square, just standing there, having a 'peaceful demo' in line-formation. Not at all like being a second police line.

Poor, poor pacifist PAME:

http://alogomiganews.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/pame-vs-strikers.jpg

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

At the end of the day, this can be seen as nothing but an historic defeat for the left in Greece.

I've thought about this overnight and, whilst I have no respect for scabs who block parliament and attack those with revolutionary aims, the violence that resulted looks bad on the entire movement and did no good to our cause, regardless of who started it.

Perhaps next time, if one side attacks the other, we all just walk away for a bit, yeah? After all, it seems as though PAME/KKE spent the first couple of hours twiddling their thumbs and chanting to a Parliament that was ignoring them, anyway. Probably better to spend another couple of hours cooling off and having some discussions about strategy, rather than the sort of aggressive, emotive (yes, revolutions raise emotions but that's where 'good revolutionary tactics' and 'bad tactics' come in) 'violence first, recriminations later' type thing that we are seeing now.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I hope it is clear to all new comers that there are very large differences between tendencies and this is just more proof that "uniting the left" is a coke-induced fantasy.

[The Douche]

Have to cede to the Greeks who are much closer to the situation. And -- it does say something that AttackGr, who has attacked the KKE in the past, sides with them here. Revolution is never simple.

Attackgr has also attacked anarchists in the past and defended the use of sexist and homophobic language, personally I don't consider him to be much of an authority on politics I would want to subscribe to.

The other greek posters are KKE supporters. The people I have heard from in Greece have stated the following, which has been confirmed by other sources, and was the original story, unquestioned until KKE hacks came in denying it:

1. PAME held the square.
2. PAME tried to prevent any other organization from entering the square.
3. PAME was asked by the "we won't pay" movement (not the anarchists) to stop monopolizing the space.
4. PAME attacked protestors from we won't pay for trying to cross through their lines.
5. Members of we won't pay put out alerts for help, anarchists showed up to a street battle allready in progress.
6. PAME allowed the police through their lines.
7. PAME handed protesters over to the police.
8. KNE members in other cities attacked anarchists.
9. PAME was escorted from the square by the police.

PAME is the union connected the the KKE, a party with members in the government which passed the austerity bill, who have MPs in the parliament that other protesters wanted to attack. PAME prevented such an attack, and attempted to control the day.

It is obvious that the KKE/PAME intends to use the austerity bill to boost their support as an opposition party, and ride the discontent into power. They can't gain power if there is a revolution though, so they have to do everything possible to prevent revolution.

(this whole situation can be extended as a critique of left parties/communist parties and unions in general, but these things are facts in this case, and the reactionary, counter-revolutionary, anti-working class nature of the KKE cannot be denied)

[khad]

I found some unmediated footage from the early stages of the confrontation. You can draw your own conclusions. I'm not getting involved.

Td1nOjqm3L4

[Rusty Shackleford]

Whos that breaking bricks? throwing water bottles and moving in?


Oh, the 'revolutionaries'!


Im still trying to figure out how i feel on PAME/KKE just surrounding parliament.




For american posters. Let me liken it to an experience i had. There was a Justice for Oscar Grant demo in Walnut Creek about 10-20 minutes out of Oakland. RCP showed up to a community organized event. What happened? RCP took over the event and chanted their super revolutionary but extremely BAsic slogans and tried to monopolize the voice of the demo. People in the crowd were openly saying "who the fuck are those guys?" "they are crazy as fuck"

RCP then tried to lead it logistically too.

Now put that in the context of the PAME/KKE demonstration. Ill then liken the anarchists and whoever else to the RCP. thats the way i view it.

[The Douche]

No organization has the right to monopolize a public space. Do PAME support the government? Then why prevent others from protesting it in their chosen way?

The recently posted video clearly shows an arguement. WHY? Why the fuck can't PAME just allow other organizations to conduct a protest?

PAME/KKE wants to control the movement.

[Rusty Shackleford]

PAME/KKE wants to control the movement.


the same could be said of the thousand or so anarchists trying to take a part of it over.

[His Dudeness]

I found some unmediated footage from the early stages of the confrontation. You can draw your own conclusions. I'm not getting involved.

Td1nOjqm3L4

It's funny to see a guy with a Greek flag between the real ''revolutionairies'.

[Broletariat]

Reading these threads is like a bad coke addiction. Every time I read it it makes me want to fucking kill myself at seeing people defend the KKE, but I just keep coming back.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Reading these threads is like a bad coke addiction. Every time I read it it makes me want to fucking kill myself at seeing people defend the KKE, but I just keep coming back.
Hey, our politics may be different but are we still Broles?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I love the fact revleft trusts people who were not there yesterday. Even AttackGr told you the truth,idiots.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

no it cannot. Only fact-twisting blind people can see it that way.
And AttackGr didn't tell us any truth , just whitewashing and repeating same poo-poo ad nauseam.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

yeah, the Greek Flag- final proof they were anarcho-fascist provocateurs! :)

[Art Vandelay]

Anyone supporting the KKE or even trying to justify those actions are not comrades of mine. The fact that some could even try to convince others that this was not blatantly anti-worker and reactionary is embarrassing to the state of the left.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Anarchist Shithead, I think you are brainwashed of what other users said.

[sean1980be]

The thing I feel most bad about following the whole discussion, is that there are still people that think that if you *just* storm parliament, kill all its ministers and drag their body trough the streets, you would have a 'revolution' and suddenly you would be able to declare a socialist state. If only Lenin knew that in his time, it just takes 600 guys and some molotov cocktails right?!

It would have been a great show, but an absolute mistake and massacre for the whole greek working class. As if your enemy is just in parliament, and when they're gone, they're gone right? That is just foolish and childish. It would have been a mistake not because it's not a good idea but because there is no sort of dual power for the moment, there are no openings in police layers, army layers, most greeks would've been entirely absent in that process too... And that's just a handful of reasons, there are many more. In other circumstances, it could be a great idea of course, but it would be more symbolic than decisive.

I think the KKE made serious mistakes here, but dudes... get real. This is not MTV Jackass.
Besides that, the KKE is pretty powerful. You cannot seriously assume that all its members present at that time are all brainwashed like zombies who are slaves to their party. These are not the 40's anymore. I'm sure most of their rank and file are honest people who can see right from wrong. The KKE was SURROUNDING the parliament. NOT protecting it. It doesn't even matter why they were there. You don't smash someone's head in because they don't let you through, or hit a crowd with molotov cocktails. You just don't do that. Never. They are working class people protesting in THEIR way. You want to trash parliament and spend your day in utterly useless fighting? Fine, but please wait until others go home to do something more useful: ORGANIZE. We could enter a revolutionary situation, but we're just not quite in it yet. If you decide this is the time to trash stuff, fine, but do so on your own behalf. A revolution is more than that, we just don't live in tribes where you could kill 2 people and take stuff over anymore.

And in Greece, there is much more work to do. And just maybe, if you would leave your hoods and stones at home, someday 3.000.000 greeks might show up and now that would change the situation.

[hatzel]

Anarchist Shithead, I think you are brainwashed of what other users said.

And what's your excuse?

[Delenda Carthago]

AttackGr attacked the KKE in the past but he also claims to have been a former KNE member. It seems that he made a turn some time ago from nihilism to becoming ML, so him siding with KKE isn't that surprising actually.

Seriously, I m not going to get into that stupid shit anymore. You retards have already made a conclusion before you even heard the news. You are nobodies anyway so it dont matter. Greek left and society has spoke already. And thats what it matters.

But if I want to say something about me, I ma do the talking. Is that alright with you?


And FIY, I was a member of KNE for 4 months. When I was 15! That is, 10 years ago. Find another excuse for your pathetic morals that are compromising you with the dynamite attacks on old people. Not on my name.

PS. After SYRIZA, ANTARSYA, EEK, KKE m-l, now KOE and NAR opposed the pseydoanarchist thuggery.


KOE




(...)

PAME agreed to a murderous attack by groups that have nothing to do with any militant ideology and perception. We saw stones, marbles and Molotov cocktails to be projected onto bodies and heads of strikers and protesters. These practices are reminiscent of single para mechanisms. The politically unacceptable decision of the leadership of the Communist Party to be nurtured by the House, keeping protesters away other unions and political spaces and huge sections of workers and struggling people, not in any way justify the fascist-inspired assassination attempt. The day before teachers went to the hospital with open heads again by the same group violence. Before half time the Greek society froze at the sound of three people killed Marfin and the government survived. It's another class issue, the confrontation with mass and political conditions, and another class problem of murderous amok apolitical hooliganism. These groups by object complements and aids in urban planning and government.

(...)NAR


(...)
We condemn strongly provocative groups 'indiscriminate violence', which, in a manner designed and practical urban violence and unofficial, attempted murder attack against PAME and other demonstrators. These activities and groups who implement or support, outside and against the mass movement, serving openly now, the government policy of scrapping mass protests and general strike and intimidate the growing movement of social and civil disobedience. No compensation, therefore, can not exist with fair political criticism for his tactics in PAME movement that does not contribute to the escalation of subversive struggle and facing as an opponent other streams of the movement and the Left.

(...)

PS 2. Since you are such a big fan of me that you keep a record of what I say, go check the records in "Newswire from Greece" to see how often I critisize KKE before acting like that.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

it doesnt matter what you used to be, you support cop-loving scum, thats all I need to know.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Damn,hooligans never change.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

better be a hooligan that fucking cop-loving scumbag, anytime.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Thats not the question. The issue is not who has a problem with who.

Yes that is a big question. Want to be anti-leninist ? Good , then go your own fucking way


The issue is the KKE worked with the police to protect parliament. Now, some marxist-leninists have at least been principled and admitted that this totally fucked, others, such as yourself, are siding with the KKE, cause if you can't lead the revolution, you don't want there to be one.

Now , now , is that a fact ? one of those regular verified revleft facts. I dont think so , and since i read a thing or two , i know its a big fucking fat lie , by usual anarchist gangsters who were told to piss off. I know , it hurts


And workers who want to storm parliament and attack the politicians who are trying to kill them, well, those workers are just "vandals".

First of all ,stop using that mumbo jumbo dictionary , with which you are either trying to sound pathetic or to cause sympathy. No one has word "worker" written on his own head , so dont go so straight. And no , they are not vandals , its a mass of people who gathered to make political statements. Vandals are those who kick trash bins at midnight


Take your anti-working class bullshit somewhere else.

Errr , would you mind ,... you know , less theatrical ?


Ah, the valiant knights of the KKE, defying the anarchist-fascist-provocateur menace by standing next to the cops, defending parliament, snitching on protesters and beating up others. What a display of proletarian valour. I bet these brave brigadiers would have stopped the bolsheviks (and that provocateur Lenin coming in from Germany per train most of all!) from storming the winter palace too.

What a collection of statements. All bets, suggestions and assumptions

[Rusty Shackleford]

better be a hooligan that fucking co-loving scumbag, anytime.


Who here has actually stated that they support the police?

[4 Leaf Clover]

Who here has actually stated that they support the police?

Exactely

[Rodrigo]

If they done what people are saying, KKE can't consider itself Marxist-Leninist. If not, it's the good ol anarkids' stupid ranting against Marxism. It's that simple.

But, anyway, here's a report from KKE press.

Sources:
In Galician-Portuguese: http://estoutrasnotaspoliticas.blogspot.com/2011/10/comunicado-do-kke-sobre-o-asalto.html
And in English: http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/kke-press-statement-on-murderous-violence-against-pame/



Statement of the Press Office Concerning the Organized Murderous Assault Against PAME’s Rally in Syntagma and the Death of the Trade Unionist of PAME Dimitris Kotzaridis


On this occasion organized groups with specific orders and anarcho-fascists unleashed an attack with Molotov cocktails, teargas, stun grenades and stones, in attempt to disperse the majestic rally of workers and people in Syntagma Square and especially in the area where PAME was concentrated. A result of this attack is the death of the trade unionist of PAME, Dimitris Kotzaridis, 53 years old, secretary of the Viron branch of the Construction Workers’ Union. Dozens more PAME demonstrators were injured.

The hatred of the hooded ones against the labour and popular movement and PAME expresses the fury of the forces which serve the system and bourgeois power. The government has massive responsibilities for this. The operation to intimidate, slander and suppress the labour and people’s movement is rooted in state structures, centres and services. History demonstrates this, today’s barbaric and murderous assault also proves this. The hooded ones, anarcho-autonomists, fascists or whatever they call themselves tried to achieve what the forces of repression, the blackmail and threats failed to do: to intimidate the people so that they submit. It objectively arises that the very same centres executed the provocateur murderous burning down of Marfin the day the Memorandum was voted on, 5 May 2010.

Their goal to disperse the rally of PAME failed. Likewise, the plans of the government, the mechanisms of the system, the parties of the plutocracy which seek to intimidate and suppress the torrent of the people’s counterattack which came onto the streets with the 48-hour strike must also fail.

The KKE expresses its sorrow and its condolences to the family of Dimitris Kotzaridis who fell in the struggle for the just cause of the working class and the people. It expresses its solidarity with the injured demonstrators, with all those who defended the workers’ and people’s demonstration from the provocateur groups. It calls on the people to stand up decisively; to struggle together with the KKE, to rally in the trade unions, in PAME and the other radical organizations which fight against the anti-people policies, the power of the monopolies. This is the opposition force to the parties of plutocracy, the EU and the IMF. This is the strength of the people in order to repel the barbaric measures, the violence and the intimidation of all the repressive mechanisms. The people can overthrow the anti-people policies and power.

ATHENS 20/10/2011

PRESS OFFICE OF THE CC OF THE KKE

[Anarchist Skinhead]

wow, this statement is really something else.. its been years since i read so much shit in such a short piece..

[The Douche]

Who here has actually stated that they support the police?

The KKE stated it by letting the police through their lines and by handing militants over to the police.


I love the fact revleft trusts people who were not there yesterday.

What about those of us who have spoken with people who were there? Are we and/or they just liars? What about the sources I have posted which consisted of live updates as KKE was attacking other protest groups? Are they lies?

[Anarchist Skinhead]

of course, its all anarcho-fascist fabrications! :laugh:

[Die Rote Fahne]

Who here has actually stated that they support the police?
The word support wasn't passed around, but they handed people over to the police, etc etc. Any leftist with any respect should hate the police and what they stand for.

The members of the KKE at that protest have proven themselves to be counter-revolutionary, and to only have respect for their own right to protest. In no way should they have prevented anyone, be they anarchists or other marxists, from entering/storming parliament. I would expect such a thing from liberals...nevermind, I also expect it from Stalinists. Even if the KKE didn't "start the violence", they had no right to prevent the anarchists from getting passed them, and the violence was what they had coming as a result.

If the roles were reversed, every ML in here would be crying about the "police loving anarchists who protect the government of the bourgeois!".

[4 Leaf Clover]

The KKE stated it by letting the police through their lines and by handing militants over to the police.

Yeah police really asks someone if they are gonna let them pass. In front of parliament.... armed with sticks , teargas and guns. :laugh:


What about those of us who have spoken with people who were there? Are we and/or they just liars? What about the sources I have posted which consisted of live updates as KKE was attacking other protest groups? Are they lies?

Your sources so far were anarchists who were told to piss off

[Le Socialiste]

Continued from here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/kke-assisting-police-t163031/index31.html). The general verbal warning is still in effect; no flaming or personal attacks, flamebaiting, death wishes etc -- all of which we unfortunately saw in the last thread -- will be tolerated, and will lead to immediate administrative action.

No matter how strong feelings we may have over the events the board rules still apply. What we want and need to see here is a constructive, calm and rational discussion.


I love the fact revleft trusts people who were not there yesterday. Even AttackGr told you the truth,idiots.



Anarchist Shithead, I think you are brainwashed of what other users said.


Well, that lasted long. Fifteen posts in, that must be some kind of record.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Your sources so far were anarchists who were told to piss off
And who gave the KKE Stalinists the right to tell anyone to "piss off"?

[hatzel]

If the roles were reversed, every ML in here would be crying about the "police loving anarchists who protect the government of the bourgeois!".

The roles don't even have to be reversed; the statement released by the KKE posted by Rodrigo effectively makes that exact claim:


The hatred of the hooded ones against the labour and popular movement and PAME expresses the fury of the forces which serve the system and bourgeois power.

Tee-hee...

[Rodrigo]

If the roles were reversed, every ML in here would be crying about the "police loving anarchists who protect the government of the bourgeois!".

It would be, the same way of your position, still completely stupid to do that.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Well, that lasted long. Fifteen posts in, that must be some kind of record.
Damn, why did I told those? Excuse me, my nerves are shit.

[4 Leaf Clover]

The word support wasn't passed around, but they handed people over to the police, etc etc. Any leftist with any respect should hate the police and what they stand for.

So so , blind... So many members of police and army forces sided with february and october uprisings.


The members of the KKE at that protest have proven themselves to be counter-revolutionary, and to only have respect for their own right to protest. In no way should they have prevented anyone, be they anarchists or other marxists, from entering/storming parliament. I would expect such a thing from liberals...nevermind, I also expect it from Stalinists. Even if the KKE didn't "start the violence", they had no right to prevent the anarchists from getting passed them, and the violence was what they had coming as a result.

Stop telling us that KKE was supposed to be sympathetic please.


If the roles were reversed, every ML in here would be crying about the "police loving anarchists who protect the government of the bourgeois!".

That wouldnt happen since KKE didnt deal with police

[4 Leaf Clover]

And who gave the KKE Stalinists the right to tell anyone to "piss off"?

A fist

[Le Socialiste]

What KKE/PAME did was attempt to monopolize the demonstration and those participating it, much to the detriment of the movement itself. By interjecting themselves into the broader protest they set up their organization(s) to be what seemed like the sole authority - an act which rubbed many people there the wrong way. By going so far as to use violence and intimidation to enforce this position, KKE/PAME exposed the true nature of their organization and its aims: to show the ruling-class that they can serve as a bulwark against the popular anger of the working-class. If this wasn't enough, it highlighted the divisiveness of the left within Greece and the broader movment itself! What KKE/PAME did amounts to a betrayal of the working-class and their goals. The final nail in the coffin for me is their collaboration with the police in handing other protesters over. I don't care who you are in the movement, you don't do that.

[4 Leaf Clover]

What KKE/PAME did was attempt to monopolize the demonstration and those participating it, much to the detriment of the movement itself. By interjecting themselves into the broader protest they set up their organization(s) to be what seemed like the sole authority - an act which rubbed many people there the wrong way. By going so far as to use violence and intimidation to enforce this position, KKE/PAME exposed the true nature of their organization and its aims: to show the ruling-class that they can serve as a bulwark against the popular anger of the working-class. If this wasn't enough, it highlighted the divisiveness of the left within Greece and the broader movment itself! What KKE/PAME did amounts to a betrayal of the working-class and their goals. The final nail in the coffin for me is their collaboration with the police in handing other protesters over. I don't care who you are in the movement, you don't do that.

Oh give me a break , KKE is not a charity organization , and of course they use power of their own authority , they are marxist-leninist party. And for sake , of course they are trying to become an authority and leader for protesters gathered around unions and workers. You know , communists do tend to do that.

[Thirsty Crow]

This is just getting absurd. From the official statement of KKE which shows an utter lack of a will to rationally discuss and inform about the real divisions within the Greek workers' movement and radical groups (nope, that paranoia with regard to the "servants of bourgeois system" being actually anarchists does nothing but further pile up the mountain of rhetorical rubbish; also, these tactics of acheiving organizational and ideological hegemony are obnoxious, buit what could you expect from Stalinists after all), to unbelievable denial of what is most clear (that KKE/PAME's peaceful protest and their encirclement effectively protected the parliament and enabled the austeriuty bills to go through) to constant verbal harrasment on behalf of the anti-KKE crowd, fuelling sectarian bullshit which does nothing, absolutely nothing, to clarify what is a very complex social process going on in Greece. And finally, the phraseology and the denouncing, holy shit!

Seriously, this discussion board is fucked up (among other things that are), and such shitfests really piss me off. So what I'm gonna do is periodically repost what I wrote in the last, as of now closed, thread, starting from now, hoping that we all can get a grip and start discussing the underlying problems:


They did rise up yesterday against the para-state groups who had in their minds to break up the demo causing casualties if possible.
They rose up and it was brilliant. I'm sorry, but this is just...dishonest, to say the least.
What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration?
Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?
If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?
Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?
And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people"?

These are honest and serious questions, and I'd like an honest question devoided of sectarian bullshit and phraseology (please, I don't need to hear about the fight against "deviations" and "opportunism"; you can reasonably describe how this supposed phenomena function and why they need to be fought, but no short cuts, no phrases, please).

It's no wonder that this thread has turned into a shitfest. Emotions are flying high for obvious reasons. But I'd like to see shit calmed down just a bit. The repeated accusations and slurs are really unproductive.


Oh give me a break , KKE is not a charity organization , and of course they use power of their own authority , they are marxist-leninist party. And for sake , of course they are trying to become an authority and leader for protesters gathered around unions and workers. You know , communists do tend to do that.
As I said, when Stalinists are around, you don't even have to worry about the cops if you're "competition". They'll do their dirty work, disciplining and restraining.

[Decolonize The Left]

I can understand if some folks wanted to rage all over some other folks and things got out of hand, but the question that I would appreciate answered is as follows:

Why were communists blockading access to parliament from thousands of working class people?

That's all. I just want to know why that happened. Forgive me if this has been answered before, I don't have internet access at home and haven't been able to check in on this discussion since yesterday.

- August

[Khalid]

From KKE website:


Certain international bourgeois media sought to present the aforementioned incidents as a conflict between two ideological-political currents inside the people’s movement. This approach has nothing to do with reality since in Greece it is well-known that these groups which appear under the cover of the black colour, the hood, “anarchism” are organized and staffed by the forces of the bourgeois system and include everything from organized hooligans of football teams, to hired thugs from night clubs, members of neo-Nazi organizations and forces of security services. There is a lot of evidence from the recent past (photographs and videos) that show the relations of these groups with the mechanisms of the system. They are murderous groups which serve the bourgeois system and have no relation with the people’s movement. They are unleashed by the system itself in order to organize provocations (like the burning of the bank on 5/5/2010 where three employees died) and provide a pretext to the security forces so as to use the equipment they possess in order to disperse the mass people’s demonstrations.

Even more dangerous and dirty is the slander that PAME protected the parliament from the protesters, an allegation reproduced by bourgeois and opportunist mass media - domestic and international ones. This dirty allegation seeks to portrait PAME as a support of the bourgeois system and the KKE as a “systemic force”, as a party of the bourgeois system. It emanates from those forces which praise the “spontaneous” movement and present it in opposition to the organized class-oriented workers’ movement. It is they who misleadingly identify the revolution and the people’s uprising with the burning of rubbish bins and the breaking of shop windows and not with the organized political struggle of the workers’ movement which has roots in the factories, in workplaces, in people’s neighbourhoods and will dispute the bourgeois power leading to a conflict with the imperialist organizations of NATO and the EU, to the establishment of people’s power. The KKE and PAME do not need any “credentials” for their militancy which the bourgeois media hand over to the hooded provocateurs, to the anarcho-fascist groups. Our history and activity has the appreciation of hundred of thousands of working people who take part in the people’s demonstrations, of millions of workers who appreciate the consistent, unwavering struggle of our party, the firmness of its goals for the overthrow of the capitalist barbarity and the militancy of its members and cadre in the places where they work and live. This slander that PAME allegedly “protected the bourgeois parliament from the rebels” has nothing to do with reality and moreover it seeks to conceal the truth, namely the fact that PAME managed, thanks to its strong vigilance, to defend the demonstration and prevent the plans for its dissolution.

As we say in Greece “lies have short legs”… On Friday morning hundreds of cadre and members of the KKE, numerous forces of the class-oriented movement visited many workplaces informing the working people and preparing new mobilizations. This mass political work among the people which will continue on a daily basis constitutes a decisive response to every kind of anarcho-fascist, to the police informers, to the bourgeois state, to the government and the parties of capital, the opportunist formations. http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-10-21-murderous-attack-info

[4 Leaf Clover]

This is just getting absurd. From the official statement of KKE which shows an utter lack of a will to rationally discuss and inform about the real divisions within the Greek workers' movement and radical groups (nope, that paranoia with regard to the "servants of bourgeois system" being actually anarchists does nothing but further pile up the mountain of rhetorical rubbish; also, these tactics of acheiving organizational and ideological hegemony are obnoxious, buit what could you expect from Stalinists after all), to unbelievable denial of what is most clear (that KKE/PAME's peaceful protest and their encirclement effectively protected the parliament and enabled the austeriuty bills to go through) to constant verbal harrasment on behalf of the anti-KKE crowd, fuelling sectarian bullshit which does nothing, absolutely nothing, to clarify what is a very complex social process going on in Greece. And finally, the phraseology and the denouncing, holy shit!

Seriously, this discussion board is fucked up (among other things that are), and such shitfests really piss me off. So what I'm gonna do is periodically repost what I wrote in the last, as of now closed, thread, starting from now, hoping that we all can get a grip and start discussing the underlying problems:

I'm sorry, but this is just...dishonest, to say the least.
What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration?
Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?
If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?
Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?
And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people"?

These are honest and serious questions, and I'd like an honest question devoided of sectarian bullshit and phraseology (please, I don't need to hear about the fight against "deviations" and "opportunism"; you can reasonably describe how this supposed phenomena function and why they need to be fought, but no short cuts, no phrases, please).

It's no wonder that this thread has turned into a shitfest. Emotions are flying high for obvious reasons. But I'd like to see shit calmed down just a bit. The repeated accusations and slurs are really unproductive.

Finnaly , a post of Anarchist to be taken seriously

You just explained these folks , how those things that happend , and response to them , only strenghtened KKE. About attempts of hegemony , i do not deny those. Leninists indeed , are trying to make hegemony.

Furthermore , groups who were commiting attacks with molotov coktails , and beating union members , just succeeded to alienate themselves from movement and protest , and disregard themselves as serious political factor


Why were communists blockading access to parliament from thousands of working class people?

People holding molotovs in hand and blowtorch in other , attacking protesters and destroying benches , dont look like working class people thats all

[Decolonize The Left]

People holding molotovs in hand and blowtorch in other , attacking protesters and destroying benches , dont look like working class people thats all

That doesn't answer the question at all.

Why were communists blockading access to parliament from thousands of working class people?

Also, I've seen the videos, and there's no way you can claim that out of the thousands of people marching on parliament, all of them were holding molotovs and destroying everything. Come on...

- August

[Anarchist Skinhead]

oh, now anarchist groups recruit neo-nazis... this gets better and better ;)

[4 Leaf Clover]

That doesn't answer the question at all.

Why were communists blockading access to parliament from thousands of working class people?

Also, I've seen the videos, and there's no way you can claim that out of the thousands of people marching on parliament, all of them were holding molotovs and destroying everything. Come on...

- August

Did those people wear anarchist uniforms (yes , you know what they are , dont start any bullshit) , carry anarchist slogans and symbols ? I really have many reason to believe so

[No_Leaders]

I think it's pretty obvious why PAME/KKE blocked parliament in a protective ring.. I've been reading many things on Greece for quite sometime and have seen many things KKE doing to be quite counter-revolutionary. It's been proven time and time again that they side with the State. i.e. handing people in to police, physically confronting and beating anarchists from occupying schools/universities during the 2008 uprisings. Hell they sided with the government calling for crackdown on the anarchists at that time. Not to mention they went out of their way to block off buildings or chain them shut to keep occupations from happening. This is nothing new. Now here they only did it on a large scale surrounding and keeping parliament safe what a joke! Aren't they you know.. communists? revolutionaries? You don't protect parliament or the pigs. Class collaborators, they're no better than the PCE during the Spanish Civil War. Looks like the state can now count on KKE to crush anarchists dissent along with Golden Dawn. Fucking wonderful...

[Rusty Shackleford]

The word support wasn't passed around, but they handed people over to the police, etc etc. Any leftist with any respect should hate the police and what they stand for.

The members of the KKE at that protest have proven themselves to be counter-revolutionary, and to only have respect for their own right to protest. In no way should they have prevented anyone, be they anarchists or other marxists, from entering/storming parliament. I would expect such a thing from liberals...nevermind, I also expect it from Stalinists. Even if the KKE didn't "start the violence", they had no right to prevent the anarchists from getting passed them, and the violence was what they had coming as a result.

If the roles were reversed, every ML in here would be crying about the "police loving anarchists who protect the government of the bourgeois!".
Would you cross a picket line? Were not the tens of thousands of workers rallying under the flags of PAME, KKE, and other demonstrating trade unions on strike? Was not their picket surrounding parliament?

[Die Rote Fahne]

So so , blind... So many members of police and army forces sided with february and october uprisings.Ohhh so that's what the KKE was doing...rather than trying to get more working class support, they wanted the support of the police...I get it now, a police revolution will be the only way!!




Stop telling us that KKE was supposed to be sympathetic please.They didn't have to be "sympathetic" but they didn't have to be against them.




That wouldnt happen since KKE didnt deal with police
The evidence has already been given, and your statement about the October revolution makes your ideals quite clear.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I can understand if some folks wanted to rage all over some other folks and things got out of hand, but the question that I would appreciate answered is as follows:

Why were communists blockading access to parliament from thousands of working class people?

That's all. I just want to know why that happened. Forgive me if this has been answered before, I don't have internet access at home and haven't been able to check in on this discussion since yesterday.

- August

I don't think you're going to get an answer. This discussion (and the previous 500+ post one) degenerated very quickly into a tendency war, and it's clear to me that there is absolutely no common ground between anarchism and Leninism (unlike the Trotsky/Stalin tendency wars), this is just a shitfest now. It's really disappointing.

[pax et aequalitas]

So inn conclusion, the Stalinists claim that anarchists are evil and can not possibly be working class and thus they should bow down to the glorious party?

[Decolonize The Left]

Did those people wear anarchist uniforms (yes , you know what they are , dont start any bullshit) , carry anarchist slogans and symbols ? I really have many reason to believe so

Jesus stop avoiding the question.

In the videos there is certainly a group of black-clad people (I am not denying this), but there are thousands of working class people marching on parliament.

Why did PAME/KKE stop them?

That's all I want to know.

- August

[Die Rote Fahne]

Would you cross a picket line? Were not the tens of thousands of workers rallying under the flags of PAME, KKE, and other demonstrating trade unions on strike? Was not their picket surrounding parliament?
Are you really comparing the anarchists to scabs? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Were the anarchists storming the parliament to start working as MP's and whatnot?

[Ravachol]

Oh give me a break , KKE is not a charity organization , and of course they use power of their own authority , they are marxist-leninist party. And for sake , of course they are trying to become an authority and leader for protesters gathered around unions and workers. You know , communists do tend to do that.

Then don't complain when you get treated the way the bourgeoisie gets treated, even outside confrontations like this. You are the best argument against Leninism in this thread so far.


People holding molotovs in hand and blowtorch in other , attacking protesters and destroying benches , dont look like working class people thats all


Said the policeman. Since when do you get to decide what goes and what doesn't go and who is "working class" (a term I bet you can barely explain).

I'm really non-sectarian and I have worked with various Leninists (MLs included) in the past but this kind of attitude being thrown around in the aftermath of these events seriously makes me reconsider whether I want to continue that. This blatant attitude of "oh, if we get away with enforcing the will and vision of the party on the 'unruly protest' we will do that, tough shit" is sickening and people who espouse it shouldn't be surprised if they are treated in kind.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Ohhh so that's what the KKE was doing...rather than trying to get more working class support, they wanted the support of the police...I get it now, a police revolution will be the only way!!


This is not even a statement , let alone a response to what i said. I said a fact , you made a generalization. Your statement was like "arrrrr ,me revolutionary , me hate cops , and pigs. arrrrrr"


They didn't have to be "sympathetic" but they didn't have to be against them.


How sweet. I love these love sparks. Thats not the same attitude , as those RAANistas "kill all leninists" one. Sorry , cant take any shots. Especially not with a gang that is actually breaking any protest organizing attempts by burning the protest lines and starting a pointless battering with police , kicking union members here and there.


The evidence has already been given, and your statement about the October revolution makes your ideals quite clear.

Yes , an evidence about something else , not the stuff you are trying to sell

[Rusty Shackleford]

Are you really comparing the anarchists to scabs? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Were the anarchists storming the parliament to start working as MP's and whatnot?
I never said they were scabs. I said they were crossing a picket.

The working class in Greece is divided into various political camps. Almost all of them united in their disgust with the government and almost as many disgusted with capitalism.

Yesterday and the day before, large sections of the working class went on strike and held pickets, one of them being around Parliament.

Anarchist workers and workers from other tendencies (possibly including patriots and fascists, not to mention police) attempted to cross a communist workers' picket to do their own thing. Some may have been there to just start shit and riot, and some may have wanted to burn parliament.

[Art Vandelay]

Jesus stop avoiding the question.

In the videos there is certainly a group of black-clad people (I am not denying this), but there are thousands of working class people marching on parliament.

Why did PAME/KKE stop them?

That's all I want to know.

- August

Dude your seriously not going to get an answer. Not to mention I do not even see why you would want one, any attempt to justify this is absurd.

[Thirsty Crow]

Finnaly , a post of Anarchist to be taken seriously

You just explained these folks , how those things that happend , and response to them , only strenghtened KKE. About attempts of hegemony , i do not deny those. Leninists indeed , are trying to make hegemony.

Furthermore , groups who were commiting attacks with molotov coktails , and beating union members , just succeeded to alienate themselves from movement and protest , and disregard themselves as serious political factor

I'm not an anarchist. It's foolish to view all possible politics as either Leninist or Anarchist, whatever that means. OK, long story short, I don't identify as an anarchist, and have serious misgivings with the historical and contemporary anarchist orgs and would really appreciate if you didn't label my views on such a simplistic basis.

And the comment regarding Leninists attempt at acheiving hegemony within the workers' movement says nothing in particular, because it's perfectly natural that a given political doctrine or tendency tries to influence broad layers of the working class, but not by means of direct attacks upon those organized differently, not by means of collaborating with the bourgeois state. Though, that's a problem for another thread since I firmly believe that we should discuss the existing revolutionary strategy held by KKE and its relation to this unfortunate conflict (the answers I enumerated in the previous post)

[Anarchist Skinhead]

oh yeah, they are so disgusted with the government that they were activelly protecting its building.. gimme a break..

[4 Leaf Clover]

Then don't complain when you get treated the way the bourgeoisie gets treated, even outside confrontations like this. You are the best argument against Leninism in this thread so far.

And you are best one against anarchism. First you blabber about kicking dirty leninists , now you are crying a river about anarchists getting kicked by the mentioned ?


Said the policeman.Booooooooooo


Since when do you get to decide what goes and what doesn't go and who is "working class" (a term I bet you can barely explain).More bets. I dont get to decide. You see a bunch of anrachists and tell them to piss off. Thats called force.


Jesus stop avoiding the question.

In the videos there is certainly a group of black-clad people (I am not denying this), but there are thousands of working class people marching on parliament.

Why did PAME/KKE stop them?

That's all I want to know.

- August

Im not avoiding queston , you are avoiding answers. KKE is trying to make organized support , gathering workers , citizens , and unions. Those who were constantly breaking those gatherings with a pair of bats , blowtorches and molotovs , got kicked.


Ibut not by means of direct attacks upon those organized differently, not by means of collaborating with the bourgeois state.

You do realise , there is a big problem with certain amount of those who "organize differently". And problem with those are hardly collaboration wth government. This is not a new problem , dont pretend like you dont know it. KKE and these groups have a good history of hostility , coming from as long history , of political differences.

[Die Rote Fahne]

This is not even a statement , let alone a response to what i said. I said a fact , you made a generalization. Your statement was like "arrrrr ,me revolutionary , me hate cops , and pigs. arrrrrr"Wrong. What you initially said held no bearing to the situation. There is no doubt that during the revolution some police and soldiers will side with the workers. However, it's QUITE obvious this is neither a comparable situation, and it is QUITE obvious that these police are not supporting the working class.


How sweet. I love these love sparks. Thats not the same attitude , as those RAANistas "kill all leninists" one. Sorry , cant take any shots. Especially not with a gang that is actually breaking any protest organizing attempts by burning the protest lines and starting a pointless battering with police , kicking union members here and there.Once again, this is completely irrelevant to the point: THE STALINITES HAD NO RIGHT TO STOP THE ANARCHISTS FROM STORMING PARLIAMENT.




Yes , an evidence about something else , not the stuff you are trying to sellI don't have to sell fact.


I never said they were scabs. I said they were crossing a picket.

The working class in Greece is divided into various political camps. Almost all of them united in their disgust with the government and almost as many disgusted with capitalism.

Yesterday and the day before, large sections of the working class went on strike and held pickets, one of them being around Parliament.

Anarchist workers and workers from other tendencies (possibly including patriots and fascists, not to mention police) attempted to cross a communist workers' picket to do their own thing. Some may have been there to just start shit and riot, and some may have wanted to burn parliament.What right is it of the Stalinites to prevent them from doing so?

If they decided to picket a hospital would you be so defensive of them? If they surrounded a building with fascists inside would you be defending them from stopping it being stormed by anarchists?

[piet11111]

Could you explain why this KKE/PAME thing is even remotely comparable to a picketline please ?

I am having a really really hard time pulling of the required mental gymnastics to make that one work.


It is a shame that molotovs where used against PAME but they did provoke a response by their refusal to allow others onto the square (and by others i mean everyone not just the anarchists)
They used violence against comrades !!! how the fuck can that be justified ?

[Decolonize The Left]

Im not avoiding queston , you are avoiding answers. KKE is trying to make organized support , gathering workers , citizens , and unions. Those who were constantly breaking those gatherings with a pair of bats , blowtorches and molotovs , got kicked.

What. the. fuck.

Why did KKE/PAME stop thousands of working class people from marching on parliament?

Stop talking about the people in black.
Stop talking about the people with weapons.
Talk about the thousands of working class people marching on parliament.

Why did KKE/PAME stop them?

- August

[La Peur Rouge]

Im not avoiding queston , you are avoiding answers. KKE is trying to make organized support , gathering workers , citizens , and unions. Those who were constantly breaking those gatherings with a pair of bats , blowtorches and molotovs , got kicked.

Your answers are bullshit. KKE is the master of class struggle now? KKE makes the rules about how revolution should go down?

They stopped working class militants from taking a government building. No fucking excuse for that.

[Rusty Shackleford]

What right is it of the Stalinites to prevent them from doing so?
Seriously? its wrong for workers to defend their own picket?
If they were so into burning down parliament, then why dont they do it when the picket isnt there? Why aren't they burning it down tonight. why didnt they burn it down 3 days ago? Why, when there is a communist demonstration, the anarchists decide to all of a sudden nut up and burn parliament by trying to puncture a communist line?



If they decided to picket a hospital would you be so defensive of them? If they surrounded a building with fascists inside would you be defending them from stopping it being stormed by anarchists?
oh nice hypothetical.

[Thirsty Crow]

It is a shame that molotovs where used against PAME but they did provoke a response by their refusal to allow others onto the square (and by others i mean everyone not just the anarchists)
They used violence against comrades !!! how the fuck can that be justified ?
No, seriously, don't try to explain or justify that criminal act. It doesn't matter that PAME prevented other groups from entering a public space (and once again, I 'd like to call attention to the fact that only the police can do so, so go figure), throwing molotvs at the PAME block is an unbelievably disgusting act.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Wrong. What you initially said held no bearing to the situation. There is no doubt that during the revolution some police and soldiers will side with the workers. However, it's QUITE obvious this is neither a comparable situation, and it is QUITE obvious that these police are not supporting the working class.

Therefore , neither is KKE gathering to support police. They are there for something completely different


Once again, this is completely irrelevant to the point: THE STALINITES HAD NO RIGHT TO STOP THE ANARCHISTS FROM STORMING PARLIAMENT.Oh yes they bloody did. They granted that right themselves


I don't have to sell fact.

What right is it of the Stalinites to prevent them from doing so?The right of the stronger


What. the. fuck.

Why did KKE/PAME stop thousands of working class people from marching on parliament?

Stop talking about the people in black.
Stop talking about the people with weapons.
Talk about the thousands of working class people marching on parliament.

Why did KKE/PAME stop them?

- August

Oh wait , you only understand it when writen in Bold

What you are saying is not a reality. Reality is , bunch of anarchists got kicked , and they suddenly claim THOUSANDS :laugh: of workers got prevented. Just ridiculous.


Your answers are bullshit. KKE is the master of class struggle now? KKE makes the rules about how revolution should go down?

They stopped working class militants from taking a government building. No fucking excuse for that.

Did those working class militants have "working class" written on their head , or were they black dressed hooligans with a gardeners toolbox ? I believe it is the other

[Die Rote Fahne]

Seriously? its wrong for workers to defend their own picket?
If they were so into burning down parliament, then why dont they do it when the picket isnt there? Why aren't they burning it down tonight. why didnt they burn it down 3 days ago? Why, when there is a communist demonstration, the anarchists decide to all of a sudeen nut up and burn parliament by trying to puncture a communist line? Explain how this picket line is justifiable? Explain why it is justifiable to defend this picket line against other working class comrades?

Why didn't they burn it down 4 days ago? Why not tomorrow? Why not next week?



oh nice hypothetical.
Answer them.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

well, if you so flippant about anarchists getting kicked, then why the disgust about KKE scum being molotoved and bricked? They wanted to take the power and BE the police, they got what they deserved. Period. No tears for the scum.

[No_Leaders]

Seriously how can a few people here actually defend PAME/KKE? They're nothing but counter-revolutionaries. What was protecting parliament gonna do? It did fuck all to stop the vote rather than being revolutionary (something which communists are right?) they stood around waved their flags and protected parliament in a protective ring! Fucking typical stalinist tactics, you know siding with the State and all. Handing over people to the cops, and physically confronting anarchists. Hmm nothing new from the great KKE. They always do this shit whether it be beating other anarchists and students in the streets, or blocking off and chaining shut potential occupation locations. Their statement on the events reeks of the same propaganda that PCE wpuld espouse during the Spanish Civil War calling anarchists and marxists 5th columnists for the fascists. How typical of Stalinists, always fighting against revolution.

[piet11111]

No, seriously, don't try to explain or justify that criminal act. It doesn't matter that PAME prevented other groups from entering a public space (and once again, I 'd like to call attention to the fact that only the police can do so, so go figure), throwing molotvs at the PAME block is an unbelievably disgusting act.

Molotovs used against PAME is entirely unjustified and i regret that happened but the violence inflicted on the people that wanted to go onto the square triggered it.

Molotovs should only ever be used against facists riot-cops and police equipment (and the army if it ever came to that but i doubt molotovs would do much good at that stage of conflict)
The physical harm burns cause along with horrible scarring will last a lifetime and even the PAME thuggery that caused this violent response does not justify the use of molotovs.
(i do volunteer work for the dutch brandwonden stiching/ burnwounds foundation so i know a thing or 2 about burn wounds)

[4 Leaf Clover]

Seriously how can a few people here actually defend PAME/KKE? They're nothing but counter-revolutionaries. What was protecting parliament gonna do? It did fuck all to stop the vote rather than being revolutionary (something which communists are right?) they stood around waved their flags and protected parliament in a protective ring! Fucking typical stalinist tactics, you know siding with the State and all. Handing over people to the cops, and physically confronting anarchists. Hmm nothing new from the great KKE. They always do this shit whether it be beating other anarchists and students in the streets, or blocking off and chaining shut potential occupation locations. Their statement on the events reeks of the same propaganda that PCE wpuld espouse during the Spanish Civil War calling anarchists and marxists 5th columnists for the fascists. How typical of Stalinists, always fighting against revolution.

They were protecting their own protest lines , not the parliament. Now you can take a whole new look on the entire situation

[Ravachol]

And you are best one against anarchism. First you blabber about kicking dirty leninists , now you are crying a river about anarchists getting kicked by the mentioned ?


Where did I call for leninists to be assaulted? I called for any line blocking parliament to be crossed, using a scuffle if necessary yes. That's something different from "achieving hegemony through violence" by grace of "a fist" as you yourself so aptly put it. If PAME didn't want to take part in the strategy of the other workers that's fine, they could have moved (oh wait, their ensurances to the state that their guard would make it a peaceful demo didn't allow that).



More bets. I dont get to decide. You see a bunch of anrachists and tell them to piss off. Thats called force.


'Nuff said. Don't come crying when your kind gets treated the same way.

Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere with the KKE-camp buying into either of the following bullshit:

1) We didn't do anything, we just stood there (not even blocking parliament) and were attacked at random by a crowd of anarchist,fascists and undercover cops. That's all.

2) We had to defend our demo, which didn't block parliament but SURROUNDED IT!, from being broken up by 'anarcho-fascist' provocateurs who initiated the conflict for no good reason.

3) We blocked parliament because the party thinks it is not the time to storm it (or because we have parliament members in there), we enforce this on all other organisations and people through a line of our guard, backed up by a police line. When people ask to cross it and a scuffle breaks out, we clear the square. We have the right to do this because we are the worker's vanguard! The fact that we do the same thing the police would do, only under the pretext of 'revolutionary strategy' is irrelevant.

All of this being contradicted again and again and again. However, it all seems to be a plot with 'well known provocateurs with police connections' (for which evidence apparently isn't necessary) working in concert with 'anarcho-fascists' (whatever that may be) to break the "glorious people's strike" or whatever.

The only use this whole ridiculous debate has been was for people to show their true colours when it comes to choosing between defending a party supposedly close to one's ideology and genuine revolutionary sentiment (that is, refusing any collaboration with the police and refusing to take a policing role). But whatever.

[Decolonize The Left]

They were protecting their own protest lines , not the parliament. Now you can take a whole new look on the entire situation

Why didn't they just move their lines?

- August

[Die Rote Fahne]

Therefore , neither is KKE gathering to support police. They are there for something completely differentThen why would a) the Stalinites turn over working class anti-capitalists to the police and b) you mention police joining the October revolution?


Oh yes they bloody did. They granted that right themselvesJust as a rapist grants himself the right to rape a woman.

There was ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THE KKE PREVENTING THEM CROSSING THE "PICKET".


The right of the strongerRights are granted only to the stronger? So, Hitler and the Nazis had every right to do what they did to the Jews, Gypsy's, Gays, Communists, etc. because they were stronger?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Explain how this picket line is justifiable? Explain why it is justifiable to defend this picket line against other working class comrades?
Obviously they aren't comrades if every time the KKE and PAME or any other trade union goes on strike, anarchists decide to go out and try to turn it into a riot.



Why didn't they burn it down 4 days ago? Why not tomorrow? Why not next week?
My point exactly.



Answer them.
the workers are defending their own picket. if there are fascists inside, i would highly doubt the workers outside would be defending them.



Furthermore. If the whole intention of trying to break through and burn parliament was to lead by example, then why did they get pushed back so easily? Obviously the anarchists and other tendencies dont have much support in that regard.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Where did I call for leninists to be assaulted? I called for any line blocking parliament to be crossed, using a scuffle if necessary yes. That's something different from "achieving hegemony through violence" by grace of "a fist" as you yourself so aptly put it. If PAME didn't want to take part in the strategy of the other workers that's fine, they could have moved (oh wait, their ensurances to the state that their guard would make it a peaceful demo didn't allow that).

No they couldnt have moved. They were making protest , errrr - in front of Parliament.


'Nuff said. Don't come crying when your kind gets treated the same way.

I hope my kid will be born in happier moments


Why didn't they just move their lines?

- August

Because they are not bunch off button resellers , and they do not move workers , citizens and political activists to let hooligans set concrete on fire and get teargassed

[No_Leaders]

They were protecting their own protest lines , not the parliament. Now you can take a whole new look on the entire situation
So why is it when other people wanted to get through they blocked them off and physically confronted them from moving closer to parliament? Oh because they weren't falling in line with what the party delegates?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Believe me, both KKE supporters and hooligans are losing their time here. Hooligans are just brutal, not ideologist and you cannot change them. As for KKE supporters, they are losing their time with hooligans. Hooligans also lose their time trying to change KKE supporters. Again , only FPS Leaf 4 Clove and AttackGr are not lying.

[Decolonize The Left]

Because they are not bunch off button resellers , and they do not move workers , citizens and political activists to let hooligans set concrete on fire and get teargassed

So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is as follows:

- PAME/KKE was having a demo which surrounded parliament.
- Out of nowhere, a group of black-clad agitators showed up alone and tried to storm parliament.
- PAME/KKE just defended their lines against said agistators.

Is this correct?

- August

[Die Rote Fahne]

Obviously they aren't comrades if every time the KKE and PAME or any other trade union goes on strike, anarchists decide to go out and try to turn it into a riot.Evidence? Were the Bolsheviks just trying to start a riot when they stormed the Tsar's Palace?




My point exactly. No, it isn't. Your point is that, just because they didn't do it before, means that they maliciously decided to do it when the Stalinites set up their "picket". My point is that it just so happened they decided to attempt to do whatever it is they wanted to do, at that time.


the workers are defending their own picket. if there are fascists inside, i would highly doubt the workers outside would be defending them.
Well your Stalinites are defending the bourgeois government who were voting on austerity measures which would be devastating to workers.



Furthermore. If the whole intention of trying to break through and burn parliament was to lead by example, then why did they get pushed back so easily? Obviously the anarchists and other tendencies dont have much support in that regard.Might does not make one right.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Then why would a) the Stalinites turn over working class anti-capitalists to the police and b) you mention police joining the October revolution?

a) They woudlnt b) Because it happened


Just as a rapist grants himself the right to rape a woman.


Just as communist grant himself a right to rebel


There was ABSOLUTELY NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THE KKE PREVENTING THEM CROSSING THE "PICKET".


Preventing who ? Hools ? Yes there was


Rights are granted only to the stronger? So, Hitler and the Nazis had every right to do what they did to the Jews, Gypsy's, Gays, Communists, etc. because they were stronger?

No , they had no right , they made right themself , by writting nazi constituton and laws themself. Are you a communist at all ? Do you recognize class dictatorships ? How are communists supposed to get right to overthrow capitalism ?

[piet11111]

Again , only FPS Leaf 4 Clove and AttackGr are not lying.

And its only a coincidence they support the KKE ?:laugh:

[4 Leaf Clover]

So why is it when other people wanted to get through they blocked them off and physically confronted them from moving closer to parliament? Oh because they weren't falling in line with what the party delegates?

Fuck sake , pictures say clearly , who was fighting who. KKE members with anarchists , who were easy to identify.




- PAME/KKE was having a demo which surrounded parliament.
Obviously


- Out of nowhere, a group of black-clad agitators showed up alone and tried to storm parliament.

Hardly a group , those were small pockets and individuals. If you seen pictures , those were the ones who were beaten.


- PAME/KKE just defended their lines against said agistators.

Yes

[The Douche]

The suggestion that anarchists attacked PAME is false.

All the videos and reports show that it was the we won't pay movement, not anarchists. The anarchists came after the we won't pay movement was attacked by PAME for trying to participate in the protest.

The police stood behind PAME as they faced off with a mixture of the we wont pay movement and anarchists and prevented those protestors from attacking parliament. This is not up for debate, there is photographic proof.


Fuck KKE, fuck PAME, fuck mediators, fuck politicans, we're not on the same side. I hope all their offices get firebombed.

[Decolonize The Left]

Hardly a group , those were small pockets and individuals. If you seen pictures , those were the ones who were beaten.

Well then who the fuck are all the other people trying to get to parliament?!?

http://www.tsantiri.gr/wp-content/media/2011/10/DSC_4293.jpg

Who are they? They're not black-clad agitators...

- August

[tir1944]

Molotovs used against PAME is entirely unjustified and i regret that happened but the violence inflicted on the people that wanted to go onto the square triggered it.
Makes no sense.
They prepared molotovs even BEFORE coming to the square and before they even faced Communists..

[Die Rote Fahne]

a) They woudlnt b) Because it happeneda) They did. b) The Bolsheviks stormed the winter palace...bunch of hools.




Just as communist grant himself a right to rebel
You are justifying rape, because the stronger rapist grants himself the right to do it?

Communists don't "grant themselves a right" to rebel. Have you ever read Marx, or just Stalin?




Preventing who ? Hools ? Yes there was
Then do, in detail, explain why.



No , they had no right , they made right themself , by writting nazi constituton and laws themself. Are you a communist at all ? Do you recognize class dictatorships ? How are communists supposed to get right to overthrow capitalism ?No, I am in fact a fascist...I'll let this sad response speak for itself.

[4 Leaf Clover]

I hope all their offices get firebombed.

Win :cool:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Evidence? Were the Bolsheviks just trying to start a riot when they stormed the Tsar's Palace?

Obviously the movement was there and the moment was ripe for revolution. The plan was to overthrow the kerensky government and turn an imperialist war into a civil war and through that build socialism. i think it worked pretty well. (and lets not argue this any further, its a whole different subject)



No, it isn't. Your point is that, just because they didn't do it before, means that they maliciously decided to do it when the Stalinites set up their "picket". My point is that it just so happened they decided to attempt to do whatever it is they wanted to do, at that time.
Then why is it that they just so happen to decide to do provocative shit only when other people are holding their demonstrations?


Well your Stalinites are defending the bourgeois government who were voting on austerity measures which would be devastating to workers.How so? If i went up and tried to break he line to get to parliament to use the bathroom i could then claim they were defending toilets by that logic.



Might does not make one right.Ok, the purpose of a general strike is to exercise working class power and develop working class political consciousness. It is also a point in time where the working class learns how to take action in its own interests and defend itself. Aleka Papagria(sorry if i misspelled) stated months ago that the KKE will fight the police if they have to to defend themselves.

Each successive general strike in Greece is more and more intense. Sooner or later that mass movement of people can truly become revolutionary and topple the Greek government and establish a new state. If the workers are to defend themselves, it must not be selective. from wherever they are attacked they must defend themselves.

[Delenda Carthago]

And its only a coincidence they support the KKE ?:laugh:
i dont you liar.

[The Douche]

Makes no sense.
They prepared molotovs even BEFORE coming to the square and before they even faced Communists..

Surely they assumed PAME, a supposedly communist organization, was going to allow them to protest, and to carry out an assault on parliament if they so desired. Instead PAME sided with the cops, and so got treated like the cops.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Well then who the fuck are all the other people trying to get to parliament?!?

http://www.tsantiri.gr/wp-content/media/2011/10/DSC_4293.jpg

Who are they? They're not black-clad agitators...

- August

OMG , they are even wearing black and holding wooden bats in hands , are you blind ?


a) They did. b) The Bolsheviks stormed the winter palace...bunch of hools.


a) no b) yes they did , which doesnt change fact lot of soldiers and policemen joined october revolution


You are justifying rape, because the stronger rapist grants himself the right to do it?

Im not justifying rape at all. I am justifying right of communist to rebel against capitalism


Communists don't "grant themselves a right" to rebel. Have you ever read Marx, or just Stalin?


Communist dont need legal right to rebel. They just do that at their own free will


Then do, in detail, explain why.

Because they break KKE protests by throwing molotovs


No, I am in fact a fascist...I'll let this sad response speak for itself.

Such a stylish way to avoid facts

[No_Leaders]

Believe me, both KKE supporters and hooligans are losing their time here. Hooligans are just brutal, not ideologist and you cannot change them. As for KKE supporters, they are losing their time with hooligans. Hooligans also lose their time trying to change KKE supporters. Again , only FPS Leaf 4 Clove and AttackGr are not lying.
Really? That's funny i could've sworn hindsight20/20 gave us a different side of the story from comrades who were directly involved in BOTH anarchist side and PAME. He stated the Marxist/Leninists comrades who were with PAME confirmed that KKE/PAME initiated the fighting first. Simply because people wanted to move in closer towards the Parliament building. Tell me since you're so fond of defending a reactionary group. Tell me what exactly is KKE doing to be revolutionary? I mean other than shout some fancy rhetoric and nice slogans about working class and all. I don't see them doing anything revolutionary in fact they seem to be class collaborators. Siding with the state? What a joke. Why does KKE go out of their way to attack anarchists when they were trying to occupy schools and universities during the 2008 uprisings hm? Why did they chain shut buildings and physically confront them in the streets? And why here in this situation did they just stand outside parliament doing.. NOTHING.

[The Douche]

i dont you liar.

Yes you are. You literally are, every post you've made in these threads has been supporting the KKE.

[piet11111]

Makes no sense.
They prepared molotovs even BEFORE coming to the square and before they even faced Communists..

That does not automatically lead to the conclusion they intended to use those molotovs against PAME.

Perhaps maybe they intended to burn down parliament or something ?
Something PAME prevented them from doing.

[tir1944]

You are justifying rape, because the stronger rapist grants himself the right to do it?
No comment.Grow the fuck up.


The Bolsheviks stormed the winter palace...bunch of hools.
Yes,however that doesn't have anything to do with the situation in Greece.


Communists don't "grant themselves a right" to rebel.
Preceisely.
And we can see who of these 2 sides has the working class behind them.:cool:

[No_Leaders]

OMG , they are even wearing black and holding wooden bats in hands , are you blind ?
They look like normal folks wearing some black jackets or blue denim looking jackets. I don't see any black clad 'agitators' as you call them ha. Anarchists showed up after this, this was the first altercation..

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I am going to ask this for the last damn time.If you so wanted to attack the parliament,why didn't you attack it when PAME and the police left around 5PM?Is that because you really wanted to do it or just because you are provocauters?

[piet11111]

i dont you liar.

Well i am sorry but thats what i read whenever you post.
I do not memorise every post every user makes on this website you know.

Maybe you should actually make a critical noise of the KKE every now and then to avoid such confusions in the future OK ?

[The Douche]

They look like normal folks wearing some black jackets or blue denim looking jackets. I don't see any black clad 'agitators' as you call them ha. Anarchists showed up after this, this was the first altercation..

Don't you get it, everybody who is not in PAME/KKE is a black clad, hooded, anarcho-fascist, police officer, agitator...

[tir1944]

Perhaps maybe they intended to burn down parliament or something ?
In the case that is indeed true,the PAME/KKE stopping the attarchists is even more justified.
You don't "do" revolutions by buring down fucking parliament buildings.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I never said they were scabs. I said they were crossing a picket.

The working class in Greece is divided into various political camps. Almost all of them united in their disgust with the government and almost as many disgusted with capitalism.

Yesterday and the day before, large sections of the working class went on strike and held pickets, one of them being around Parliament.

Anarchist workers and workers from other tendencies (possibly including patriots and fascists, not to mention police) attempted to cross a communist workers' picket to do their own thing. Some may have been there to just start shit and riot, and some may have wanted to burn parliament.

It took you an entire day to come up with that? Seriously?

You cannot seriously, objectively, really believe the shit you've just written. Why would there be a picket line outside the fucking bourgeois parliament? Has it suddenly become the workplace of the working class? Last I checked it was the home of reformist scabs, including KKE members if i'm not mistaken.

[The Douche]

I am going to ask this for the last damn time.If you so wanted to attack the parliament,why didn't you attack it when PAME and the police left around 5PM?Is that because you really wanted to do it or just because you are provocauters?

I answered this allready...

Because PAME and their police allies had allready broken the momentum. Good job, you guys won...

[Die Rote Fahne]

Obviously the movement was there and the moment was ripe for revolution. The plan was to overthrow the kerensky government and turn an imperialist war into a civil war and through that build socialism. i think it worked pretty well. (and lets not argue this any further, its a whole different subject)So, what did stopping the anarchists accomplish?


Then why is it that they just so happen to decide to do provocative shit only when other people are holding their demonstrations? You mean when other people prevent them from holding demonstrations or doing what they intend.


How so? If i went up and tried to break he line to get to parliament to use the bathroom i could then claim they were defending toilets by that logic. Then explain to me, EXACTLY what the picket line was intended for. Don't just say "to stop people from crossing".


Ok, the purpose of a general strike is to exercise working class power and develop working class political consciousness. It is also a point in time where the working class learns how to take action in its own interests and defend itself. Aleka Papagria(sorry if i misspelled) stated months ago that the KKE will fight the police if they have to to defend themselves. The Anarchists are not the police. Nor would the anarchists have been involved in any violence, had the Stalinites allowed them through.


Each successive general strike in Greece is more and more intense. Sooner or later that mass movement of people can truly become revolutionary and topple the Greek government and establish a new state. If the workers are to defend themselves, it must not be selective. from wherever they are attacked they must defend themselves.
Evidence shows that the KKE instigated the violence.

Regardless, there was no LEGITIMATE/STRATEGIC REASON to prevent the anarchists from storming parliament.

IN FACT the storming of parliament could have prevented the vote on AUSTERITY, and saved the WORKING CLASS A LOT OF GRIEF.

[La Peur Rouge]

I am going to ask this for the last damn time.If you so wanted to attack the parliament,why didn't you attack it when PAME and the police left around 5PM?Is that because you really wanted to do it or just because you are provocauters?

Dictating to the proletariat when we can and cannot engage in struggle?

Typical.

[The Douche]

In the case that is indeed true,the PAME/KKE stopping the attarchists is even more justified.
You don't "do" revolutions by buring down fucking parliament buildings.

Yeah, then where would the party get to rule from?

[Thirsty Crow]

I am going to ask this for the last damn time.If you so wanted to attack the parliament,why didn't you attack it when PAME and the police left around 5PM?Is that because you really wanted to do it or just because you are provocauters?
7000 riot cops, full gear, ready to crack bones. People have pointed out this simple fact numerous times, and you failed to notice, probably becuase you wanted to be able to posture as you do. Idiot.

[piet11111]

In the case that is indeed true,the PAME/KKE stopping the attarchists is even more justified.
You don't "do" revolutions by buring down fucking parliament buildings.

Well the vote for the austerity measures would probably have been slightly inconvenienced when the entire building was on fire.

That alone would have been worth burning down parliament.

[4 Leaf Clover]

They look like normal folks wearing some black jackets or blue denim looking jackets. I don't see any black clad 'agitators' as you call them ha. Anarchists showed up after this, this was the first altercation..

I see at least 4 people there having wooden bats in their hands wearing black and faccing kke/pame. And i also see people there who are standing quite peacefully next to PAME/KKE lines , and i have strong reason to believe no one prevented them to join their lines. However there are aways certain individuals who have other intentions

[piet11111]

I see at least 4 people there having wooden bats in their hands wearing black and faccing kke/pame. And i also see people there who are standing quite peacefully next to PAME/KKE lines , and i have strong reason to believe no one prevented them to join their lines. However there are aways certain individuals who have other intentions

And how many PAME/KKE people do you see with red flags with remarkably thick wooden sticks and ideal clubbing size ?

Or would you say i am probably looking into this a bit too much ?

[Magón]

In the case that is indeed true,the PAME/KKE stopping the attarchists is even more justified.
You don't "do" revolutions by buring down fucking parliament buildings.

Why not? Burn the old, build the new, I say.

[4 Leaf Clover]

And how many PAME/KKE people do you see with red flags with remarkably thick wooden sticks and ideal clubbing size ?

Lots off. These proven to be very usefull

[tir1944]

Can one really be that stupid not to realize that had the parliament been set on fire (with politicians inside being in the danger of getting injured/killed),the Army would have come in.And it wouldn't have been rubber bullets either.
Most of these anarchists would have of course been killed,but the real tragedy would hit the Greek working masses.
Greece was already ruled by a military junta until the mid-70s.

[No_Leaders]

Don't you get it, everybody who is not in PAME/KKE is a black clad, hooded, anarcho-fascist, police officer, agitator...
Exactly.. He's making the same old tried fabrications of anarchists being fascists, police provocateurs. Think we have our very own Alex Jones here.:laugh: That being said the KKE defenders like 4 leaf clover and KommounistisGR have yet to tell us why KKE did jack diddly while standing in front of parliament. I thought they were fighting for revolution..

[piet11111]

Why not? Burn the old, build the new, I say.

Create some jobs for the army of unemployed at the same time.

Also its only a matter of time before the military will be brought in just look at the goverment response to the refuse collectors strike

[Delenda Carthago]

Well i am sorry but thats what i read whenever you post.
I do not memorise every post every user makes on this website you know.

Maybe you should actually make a critical noise of the KKE every now and then to avoid such confusions in the future OK ?
Maybe you should know what you talk about before you speak on it. I am ruthlesly critical on KKE on many occasions. A skate through "Newswire from Greece" would convinse even people with IQ lower than winter temperatures like cmoney. For the last 10 years I m in the anarchist space. How about that?

[piet11111]

Maybe you should know what you talk about before you speak on it

Why dont you make a fucking argument before puking out that damned line again ?

[His Dudeness]

Well the vote for the austerity measures would probably have been slightly inconvenienced when the entire building was on fire.

That alone would have been worth burning down parliament.
You think that the government would let a couple of Anarchist burn down a parliament easily? Even if the protesters came far, then the police have to pull out their gun and point it towards the protesters, because you CAN'T storm a parliament without people dying (for example: Kyrgyzstan).

[Delenda Carthago]

Why dont you make a fucking argument before puking out that damned line again ?
Why do you duck when I do?

[tir1944]

So it's quite clear that idiotic Anarchist adventurism put the Working masses in great danger.
The KKE was more than right for repulsing these provocateaurs.

[Die Rote Fahne]

No comment.Grow the fuck up.I wasn't talking to you. Since you decided to stick your nose in, I guess I should clarify something:
I said the following: "Just as a rapist grants himself the right to rape a woman"

In response to clover suggesting that the reason the Stalinites had the right to prevent the anarchists from crossing the line, was because: "They granted that right themselves "

I took the oppurtunity to make a comparison, suggesting that rights are not "granted" just because someone is stronger, or because they want to do something. After I made the comment "Just as a rapist grants himself the right to rape a woman" he responded by saying "Just as a communist grants himself the right to rebel". WHICH CLEARLY SUGGESTS HE BELIEFS THE RAPIST IS CORRECT IN GRANTING HIMSELF THAT "RIGHT".

Does that clear things up?


Yes,however that doesn't have anything to do with the situation in Greece.
The point is that the anarchists are being called "hools" solely for trying to storm parliament.


Preceisely.
And we can see who of these 2 sides has the working class behind them.:cool:
Just as the Nazis had the working class behind them :cool:.

[4 Leaf Clover]

You think that the government would let a couple of Anarchist burn down a parliament easily? Even if the protesters came far, then the police have to pull out their gun and point it towards the protesters, because you CAN'T storm a parliament without people dying (for example: Kyrgyzstan).

Its not about parliament burning. Its about getting masses organized as opposition to individuals throwing stuff at isolated cops they find and then getting lost home. And then come and make firework in the middle of organized crowd

[Die Rote Fahne]

So it's quite clear that idiotic Anarchist adventurism put the Working masses in great danger.
The KKE was more than right for repulsing these provocateaurs.
Every revolution puts the working masses in great danger.

As does allowing Stalinites to be any part of the revolution.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I answered this allready...

Because PAME and their police allies had allready broken the momentum. Good job, you guys won...
What the fuck?Which momentum?If there was momentum why didn't you join us?And you can get a plane for Greece with your comrades and storm the parliament whenever you want..do it lets see what will you achieve expcet of a massacre between people and politicians.

[4 Leaf Clover]

"Just as a communist grants himself the right to rebel". WHICH CLEARLY SUGGESTS HE BELIEFS THE RAPIST IS CORRECT IN GRANTING HIMSELF THAT "RIGHT".

Does that clear things up?

No he doesnt have right to rape woman. Its forbbiden by law. As well as making proletarian revolution is forbiden by law.

Thats why both rapists and communists chose to follow their own laws

[Die Rote Fahne]

No he doesnt have right to rape woman. Its forbbiden by law. As well as making proletarian revolution is forbiden by law.AThis makes no sense.

So the communists grant themselves the right to rebel, unless it's against the law?

If rape is NOT against the law, thee rapist has the right to rape someone?

Jesus fucking Christ.

[tir1944]

In response to clover suggesting that the reason the Stalinites had the right to prevent the anarchists from crossing the line, was because: "They granted that right themselves "
Using that moronic line we'd come to the conclusion that the Leftists have no right to prevent the fascists(etc.) from "crossign the line",occupying public space etc.
We're talkign about relationships between organizations,not individuals.


The point is that the anarchists are being called "hools" solely for trying to storm parliament.
They sure behaved like hooligans.Even worse.Throwing molotovs on people...scum.


Just as the Nazis had the working class behind them
Not really.

[Magón]

Can one really be that stupid not to realize that had the parliament been set on fire (with politicians inside being in the danger of getting injured/killed),the Army would have come in.And it wouldn't have been rubber bullets either.
Most of these anarchists would have of course been killed,but the real tragedy would hit the Greek working masses.
Greece was already ruled by a military junta until the mid-70s.

I think even in a place like Greece, if the military came in and started shooting people up for burning Parliament, even more people would stand up and be displeased with the current system Greece is working with.

Revolution?

[His Dudeness]

Its not about parliament burning. Its about getting masses organized as opposition to individuals throwing stuff at isolated cops they find and then getting lost home. And then come and make firework in the middle of organized crowd
You are right about that, but even if their intention was storming the parliament it would be stupid, because they even can't defeat a thousand guys armed with just a stick.

[Delenda Carthago]

You think that the government would let a couple of Anarchist burn down a parliament easily? Even if the protesters came far, then the police have to pull out their gun and point it towards the protesters, because you CAN'T storm a parliament without people dying (for example: Kyrgyzstan).
Its funny how after 750 posts, the post of all the left's announcements(even those that are close to anarchist space),the first hand experiences by two KKE members and mine, many photos, many videos, many analyses the conversation is still at the point of talking about the possibility of a bunch of anarchists burning down the Parliament. Something that btw I ve explained with examples why its imposible to happen in the first place.

Its just 4-5 people that really keep the conversation on the most generic apolitical level. Now, either they are really incapable of thinking, or they have other kind of interests on keeping the converstation to that level. They surely dont have the excuse of let the passion take over due to personal experiences, like many of my friends(many of them wounded too) do.

[piet11111]

Why do you duck when I do?

Post some factual information all i get from you is "you where not there so what can you know" followed by the KKE party press release.

I am not sectarian you know if you come up with good arguments i will listen to them.

Why would PAME forcefully stop people from getting onto the square ?
Why would PAME let the police through their lines to arrest people ?
Why would PAME protect the parliament building ?

The only explanation i read so far is the ridiculous comparison between the PAME protecting parliament and a picketline as if the people that attacked parliament where going to work as MP's ?

[tir1944]

Every revolution puts the working masses in great danger.
Yes,indeed,however it is TREACHERY to put the working masses in danger when it has no real means to fight back.That's what the anarchistt-provocateaurs tried to did.
In case you don't remember,back in 1917 the Bolsheviks had hundreds of thousands of people under arms (mostly experienced soldiers)!

[4 Leaf Clover]

AThis makes no sense.

So the communists grant themselves the right to rebel, unless it's against the law?

If rape is NOT against the law, thee rapist has the right to rape someone?

Jesus fucking Christ.

You are just denying yourself all the way , then repeating same question , then again denying yourself :lol: .


So the communists grant themselves the right to rebel, unless it's against the law?No , and thats exactly why they have chosen deliberately to kick bunch of anarchists


You are right about that, but even if their intention was storming the parliament it would be stupid, because they even can't defeat a thousand guys armed with just a stick.

And not only that , but organizing a mass and guided protest in front of parliament , is the first sign of legitimacy of the masses that protest. Breaking protests in favor of sporadic and unorganized hit-and-run street fights , is alienating masses from movement , and making wider and more serious actions even more distant and impossible

[tir1944]

I think even in a place like Greece, if the military came in and started shooting people up for burning Parliament, even more people would stand up and be displeased with the current system Greece is working with.
Revolution?
Yes,it's cool that you're so sure of everything.
How about you go to Greece and show them how to do revolutions?
(Hint:if things get nasty,you can always seek shelter in your country's embassy).
Grow up dude.

[Gustav HK]

Please, stop calling "K"KE "stalinists". The real stalinists are in the Anasintaxi.

[His Dudeness]

Its funny how after 750 posts, the post of all the left's announcements(even those that are close to anarchist space),the first hand experiences by two KKE members and mine, many photos, many videos, many analyses the conversation is still at the point of talking about the possibility of a bunch of anarchists burning down the Parliament. Something that btw I ve explained with examples why its imposible to happen in the first place.

Its just 4-5 people that really keep the conversation on the most generic apolitical level. Now, either they are really incapable of thinking, or they have other kind of interests on keeping the converstation to that level. They surely dont have the excuse of let the passion take over due to personal experiences, like many of my friends(many of them wounded too) do.
I was just reacting to piet who really thinks that it is a good idea. But you're right, it's like talking to a brick wall.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Post some factual information all i get from you is "you where not there so what can you know" followed by the KKE party press release.

I am not sectarian you know if you come up with good arguments i will listen to them.

Why would PAME forcefully stop people from getting onto the square ?
Why would PAME let the police through their lines to arrest people ?
Why would PAME protect the parliament building ?

The only explanation i read so far is the ridiculous comparison between the PAME protecting parliament and a picketline as if the people that attacked parliament where going to work as MP's ?
It never did that.Anyone could get in the square,PAME was seeing the hools coming and they told them to get out.
The cops,believe it or not,is cooperating with the hooligans.They let them throw some molotovs and bombs to get some people hurt and then they were arresting them.
It didn't protect the parliament.It encircle it just to show the power workers have.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Using that moronic line we'd come to the conclusion that the Leftists have no right to prevent the fascists(etc.) from "crossign the line",occupying public space etc.
We're talkign about relationships between organizations,not individuals.The difference is what the fascists stand for/what their goal would be as opposed to what the anarchists stand for. The anarchists are anticaptialist and working class. Their aim was to do some REAL agitation, as opposed to Stalinite standing around.



They sure behaved like hooligans.Even worse.Throwing molotovs on people...scum.You are only looking at what they did, and not asking why they did it. You're emotional response is ridiculous. Try some reason.


Not really.Do explain...I await your response.

NOT EVEN ONE OF YOU STALINITES HAVE PROVIDED AN ANSWER TO WHY IT WAS STRATEGICALLY/LOGICALLY REASONABLE TO STOP THE ANARCHISTS FROM STORMING PARLIAMENT.

[Magón]

Yes,it's cool that you're so sure of everything.
How about you go to Greece and show them how to do revolutions?
(Hint:if things get nasty,you can always seek shelter in your country's embassy).
Grow up dude.

How did I come off as being sure of everything? I'm just saying that if cops or army came in, shooting people, then more would stand up and join the opposition. Happened in China with Tiananmen Square, it can happen in Greece too, why not?

[Delenda Carthago]

Post some factual information all i get from you is "you where not there so what can you know" followed by the KKE party press release.

I am not sectarian you know if you come up with good arguments i will listen to them.

Why would PAME forcefully stop people from getting onto the square ?
Why would PAME let the police through their lines to arrest people ?
Why would PAME protect the parliament building ?

The only explanation i read so far is the ridiculous comparison between the PAME protecting parliament and a picketline as if the people that attacked parliament where going to work as MP's ?
I posted photos. I posted videos.

Most imporantly, I posted the texts of anyone that matters on the subject. The whole revolutionary Left. Which even if most of them are ciritising KKE too, are moslty attacking anarchists for their stance not just today, but in general.

Thats more the facts this discussion deserves.

[Gustav HK]

Why do you continue calling "K"KE "stalinist" or "stalinite"?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

AttackGr,they are based on what hindsight's friends told them.Wow,if 2 people are actually more reliable than photo and video footage and the whole left's opinion in Greece then I think I should trust everyone.

[4 Leaf Clover]

NOT EVEN ONE OF YOU STALINITES HAVE PROVIDED AN ANSWER TO WHY IT WAS STRATEGICALLY/LOGICALLY REASONABLE TO STOP THE ANARCHISTS FROM STORMING PARLIAMENT.

Yes we did , to stop them from breaking crowds of protesters , and starting isolated street fights and beating unionists

[tir1944]

Happened in China with Tiananmen Square, it can happen in Greece too, why not? Are you fucking trolling or what?
Do you know how did the Tianamen end? With THOUSANDS killed by the Army!
What was achieved? Nothing.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Are you fucking trolling or what?
Do you know how did the Tianamen ended? With THOUSANDS killed by the Army!
What was achieved? Nothing.
That is what exactly hooligans want to achieve,comrade.Violence.

[Magón]

Are you fucking trolling or what?
Do you know how did the Tianamen ended? With THOUSANDS killed by the Army!
What was achieved? Nothing.

It achieved attention, that it hadn't had before. Many people joined after those many died. Are you just an idiot who likes shouting at people on the internet, or could you really not see the point I was making?

[4 Leaf Clover]

That is what exactly hooligans want to achieve,comrade.Violence.

Not just violence, they are making their own personal violence for their own personal satisfaction. They are unorganized , mislead and politically blind.

[Thirsty Crow]

Its just 4-5 people that really keep the conversation on the most generic apolitical level. Now, either they are really incapable of thinking, or they have other kind of interests on keeping the converstation to that level. They surely dont have the excuse of let the passion take over due to personal experiences, like many of my friends(many of them wounded too) do.
You should shut the fuck up, honestly, since you also participate in holding this specific course for the debate to follow, sprinkled with an occasional "you're not Greek, you're not from here, you don't know anything". If you really intend to elevate the discussion to a decent political level, have a go at these:

What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration and the general strike?

Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?

If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?

Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?

And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people", which highlights some basic positions for communists to adopt - like cancelling the debt, but at the same time does not elaborate on the concret ways in which this could take place?

[4 Leaf Clover]

You should shut the fuck up, honestly, since you also participate in holding this specific course for the debate to follow, sprinkled with an occasional "you're not Greek, you're not from here, you don't know anything". If you really intend to elevate the discussion to a decent political level, have a go at these:

What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration and the general strike?

Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?

If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?

Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?

And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people", which highlights some basic positions for communists to adopt - like cancelling the debt, but at the same time does not elaborate on the concret ways in which this could take place?

You just answered your own question , point of KKE protests was to gather even wider support for anti-austerity , and to make some sort of leadership between them

[tir1944]

It achieved attention, that it hadn't had before.
Are you insane or just plain stupid?
ATTENTTION? It would have been good had the anarchists burned down the parliament and (possibly) caused the Army to take power because it would have gotten "ATTENTION"! Anarchists would get ATTENTION and the working masses would get a military dictatorship,but hey...ATTENTION is,i guess,more important.
Fuck you.Just...fuck you.


Shame on

[Kornilios Sunshine]

You should shut the fuck up, honestly, since you also participate in holding this specific course for the debate to follow, sprinkled with an occasional "you're not Greek, you're not from here, you don't know anything". If you really intend to elevate the discussion to a decent political level, have a go at these:

What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration and the general strike?

Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?

If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?

Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?

And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people", which highlights some basic positions for communists to adopt - like cancelling the debt, but at the same time does not elaborate on the concret ways in which this could take place?
No,it was told that you were not present in the demonstration.If the same happened in Kurdistan,you don't know about it because you are not Kurdistanian but because you were not there.Dude,are you crazy?You think that a strike is done and then everything is OK?

[piet11111]

You think that the government would let a couple of Anarchist burn down a parliament easily? Even if the protesters came far, then the police have to pull out their gun and point it towards the protesters, because you CAN'T storm a parliament without people dying (for example: Kyrgyzstan).

Unless they had machinegun nests around parliament the chances of succesfully storming parliament was actually present.
If they wanted to give it a try then its their decision to make but PAME denied them the chance.


It didn't protect the parliament.It encircle it just to show the power workers have.

Waving flags doing nothing i bet those boor sods where shaking in their shoes.


I posted photos. I posted videos.

I have seen photos and videos too still not convinced.


Most imporantly, I posted the texts of anyone that matters on the subject. The whole revolutionary Left. Which even if most of them are ciritising KKE too, are moslty attacking anarchists for their stance not just today, but in general.I have read those and i am still not convinced.


Thats more the facts this discussion deserves.Glad you are the one to decide that for all of us that now where can i pick up my KKE/PAME flag a new one please i dont want any blood on it.
Now that the thinking work has been taken care of by the KKE we can all focus on waving flags with our thumbs up our asses.

Anyway i am going to bed now.

[Thirsty Crow]

You just answered your own question , point of KKE protests was to gather even wider support for anti-austerity , and to make some sort of leadership between them
Crawl back to the whole you got out of, please. I wasn't talking to you, and I sure as hell do not need idiotic platitudes thrown around and paraded as answers for what I believe to be the crucial question, especially the last one (something you didn't bother to try and answer; which is great, keep it up).

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Are you insane or just plain stupid?
ATTENTTION? It would have been good had the anarchists burned down the parliament and (possibly) caused the Army to take power because it would have gotten "ATTENTION"! Anarchists would get ATTENTION and the working masses would get a military dictatorship,but hey...ATTENTION is,i guess,more important.
Fuck you.Just...fuck you.


Shame on
What received attention,and always does,is the hooligans with the riots.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

You just answered your own question , point of KKE protests was to gather even wider support for anti-austerity , and to make some sort of leadership between them
Ah, now I can see why they sided with the cops and beat up a load of anarchists who were trying to storm parliament. Yep, supporting the state will gather support for anti-austerity.

Side with the man who's shooting at your friend, that's how you support him.

The Stalinoids have done what they have always do: swayed a political movement towards their own fetish for leadership. Disgraceful, they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves communists.

[Thirsty Crow]

No,it was told that you were not present in the demonstration.If the same happened in Kurdistan,you don't know about it because you are not Kurdistanian but because you were not there.Dude,are you crazy?You think that a strike is done and then everything is OK?
What? Are you high or something? This, this is the response to the questions raised? That I think that "a strike is done and then everything is OK"?? Oh what the fuck. To hell with this site.

[4 Leaf Clover]

Crawl back to the whole you got out of, please. I wasn't talking to you, and I sure as hell do not need idiotic platitudes thrown around and paraded as answers for what I believe to be the crucial question, especially the last one (something you didn't bother to try and answer; which is great, keep it up).

You are hilarious. I dont need a permission to answer your posts. I dont need to be much smart to answer your questions either. I dont need to be much intelligent to understand , that you perfectly avoided to face answer i gave.

Of course , you go and debate with members who are less virtuous or skillful in dismantling these anarchist bullshit arguments such as i am. You dont face the challenge of a superior :cool:


Ah, now I can see why they sided with the cops and beat up a load of anarchists who were trying to storm parliament. Yep, supporting the state will gather support for anti-austerity.

Just didnt happen , sorry


Side with the man who's shooting at your friend, that's how you support him.

Didnt happen


The Stalinoids have done what they have always do: swayed a political movement towards their own fetish for leadership. Disgraceful, they shouldn't be allowed to call themselves communists.

Leadership yes , fetish , no

[pax et aequalitas]

This is starting to get disgusting. The worthy discussion this once was has become a nothing more than a bunch of people stereotyping one another. There isn't going get anything good from this thread anymore if you ask me.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Wow,you who wanted to storm the parliament remind me of nationalists,like if they attacked the parliament,there would be like the 300 spartans or something..just :laugh:

[Magón]

Are you insane or just plain stupid?
ATTENTTION? It would have been good had the anarchists burned down the parliament and (possibly) caused the Army to take power because it would have gotten "ATTENTION"! Anarchists would get ATTENTION and the working masses would get a military dictatorship,but hey...ATTENTION is,i guess,more important.
Fuck you.Just...fuck you.


Shame on

Wow, just wow. I thought your posts in other threads were stupid, but I think this one takes the cake for me personally. If it had gotten attention, then why would Anarchists and the Greek Working Class, allow the military to take over? Wouldn't they rather not just let them take over, and begin enforcing a new system that they can control, that isn't what the old was? (ie REVOLUTION)

Like I said, burn the old, build the new. You're just a fucking moron if you can't grasp the simplicity I'm trying to express to you. People die, it happens all the time. Bolsheviks died in 1917 too, in case you didn't know, and at least now with us who are saying the Anarchists and whoever, should have burned down Parliament, we're honest with what we're saying, and not standing behind a corrupt and fucked state system.

Honesty is what we need, not some cloak and dagger fucks, who stand in front of those with honest actions.

[4 Leaf Clover]

This is starting to get disgusting. The worthy discussion this once was has become a nothing more than a bunch of people stereotyping one another. There isn't going get anything good from this thread anymore if you ask me.

Especially not if RAANista jumps into discussion

[Delenda Carthago]

You should shut the fuck up, honestly, since you also participate in holding this specific course for the debate to follow, sprinkled with an occasional "you're not Greek, you're not from here, you don't know anything". If you really intend to elevate the discussion to a decent political level, have a go at these:

What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration and the general strike?

Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?

If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?

Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?

And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people", which highlights some basic positions for communists to adopt - like cancelling the debt, but at the same time does not elaborate on the concret ways in which this could take place?
I feel funny like fuckin a smart ass up so I ll pick up the glove.



What was the expected outcome of the KKE/PAME demonstration and the general strike?

In the first I can only say what Papariga said, since I m not a member of either PAME or KKE, when she said that they want to apply pressure so that the new laws woundnt pass. As for the second, the expected outcome was to escalate the class struggle. Something that was pretty much done.



Were other actions planned to stop the austerity bills being pushed through? Was it even an option, a realistic option, that the legalization of this vicious attack upon the working people and pensioners in Greece will be halted?

What "other actions"? This was the most successful strike in Greece's history,at least after 1974. And it was combined with inormous demos, occupations in dozens of ministries, town halls etc. Something that tends to be forgoten after the feud. If this shit didnt happened, we would have wings on our legs right now. Something that looks like another situation, 5/5/2010. It took one and a half year for the working class to rise up again and something happened, again, that clipped the wings. You see a common factor?



If not, what was the purpose of the demonstration, movement building or something like that?

I guess so. Maybe if we had more dissent goverment, they would quit too.



Also, if not, do the people in the unions and in the party realize that an overthrow of bourgeois rule - yes, a workers' revolution - is the only option left on the table if the class is to defend itself (a nice example of how the aims of defensive struggle necesitate aggressive, and yes, revolutionary action)?
If you talk on KKE, thats all they say for the last year and a half. Matter of fact, the other Left's critic on KKE is that they are acting really leftisty cause they had left behind the struggle for today's answers and they focused only to "Peoples Power".




And what is the position within the said orgs on the possibilities for organizing such a social transformation, in the contemporary period? Does a program exist, other than wielding empty rhetoric about "the people", which highlights some basic positions for communists to adopt - like cancelling the debt, but at the same time does not elaborate on the concret ways in which this could take place?

Not everybody is fighting for a revolution. ANTARSYA is more focused on things like canceling the debt, KKE m-l on the everyday struggle, KKE on making a full revolution without any mediate programm.

[Thirsty Crow]

You are hilarious. I dont need a permission to answer your posts. I dont need to be much smart to answer your questions either. I dont need to be much intelligent to understand , that you perfectly avoided to face answer i gave.

Of course , you go and debate with members who are less virtuous or skillful in dismantling these anarchist bullshit arguments such as i am. You dont face the challenge of a superior :cool:

You don't need a permission, that's right, and I'll ignore your textbook wisdom next time, don't worry.
Though the arrogance is fantastic. I avoided the answer you gave, on one of the five listed questions. That's just great. Sop what you are basically telling me, is that your opinion is that the general strike and the demo was a process aimed at recruiting and getting support for a broader anti-austerity position - something which includes reformist platforms and political positions as well. That the leadership of PAME/KKE was aware that the new austerity bills will be pushed through and that they will be enforced.

And just to state it out clearly, I want to hear the response from the Greek comrades, in the first place, from AttackGr and FSL. I didn't go into any of the "anarchist bullshit arguments", so that would make your little rant a testimony to your arrogance and sectarianism (arguing from preconceived positions which are not thought out from the very concrete relations of social forces on the ground is a characteristic of this shit that you and some of your buddies peddle).

[pax et aequalitas]

Especially not if RAANista jumps into discussion

Thank you for confirming my statement with this beautiful personal attack devoid of any meaning.:rolleyes:

[4 Leaf Clover]

You don't need a permission, that's right, and I'll ignore your textbook wisdom next time, don't worry.

I know you will , thats was so obvious from you :laugh:


Though the arrogance is fantastic. I avoided the answer you gave, on one of the five listed questions. That's just great. Sop what you are basically telling me, is that your opinion is that the general strike and the demo was a process aimed at recruiting and getting support for a broader anti-austerity position - something which includes reformist platforms and political positions as well. That the leadership of PAME/KKE was aware that the new austerity bills will be pushed through and that they will be enforced.

Anarchists with molotovs and bats also knew bill will be passed. I didnt see them do anything but battering cops


And just to state it out clearly, I want to hear the response from the Greek comrades, in the first place, from AttackGr and FSL. I didn't go into any of the "anarchist bullshit arguments", so that would make your little rant a testimony to your arrogance and sectarianism (arguing from preconceived positions which are not thought out from the very concrete relations of social forces on the ground is a characteristic of this shit that you and some of your buddies peddle).

All of greek commrades thanked my posts in which i answered those questions , and i answered them to other forumers at least 5-6 times. My arrogance is natural towards someone so inferior with arguments or ideas.

[FSL]

That doesn't answer the question at all.

Why were communists blockading access to parliament from thousands of working class people?

Also, I've seen the videos, and there's no way you can claim that out of the thousands of people marching on parliament, all of them were holding molotovs and destroying everything. Come on...

- August
Access was not blocked, any person could walk in and out of our bloc freely, other blocs couldn't enter because these "revolutionaries" often find home in other blocs that have no chains protecting them.
Time after time demonstrations have been broken up with people emerging out of this or that union's bloc starting a "riot".
The only thing that changed is that they tried to break up our demostration this time.


Strikes are called by unions. Try to find one union calling to burn/overrun or whatever the parliament. Maybe you don't need unions or any mass organizations, huh? Maybe all that's needed is the will of the few hundred "anarchists". It's ok when they impose their views on other demos, why not on this one?
Because they couldn't handle it, that's why.

[FSL]

Jesus stop avoiding the question.

In the videos there is certainly a group of black-clad people (I am not denying this), but there are thousands of working class people marching on parliament.

Why did PAME/KKE stop them?

That's all I want to know.

- August

After PAME left about 3 thousand people remained on the spot mostly from other leftist organizations and they were quickly dispersed in the next 30 minutes.
Why was there no revolution?
Why didn't the tens of thousands follow "anarchists" inside the parliament?
Why did the demo completely fall apart within 30 minutes after we moved elsewhere?


Well guess fuckin why.

[4 Leaf Clover]

After PAME left about 3 thousand people remained on the spot mostly from other leftist organizations and they were quickly dispersed in the next 30 minutes.
Why was there no revolution?
Why didn't the tens of thousands follow "anarchists" inside the parliament?
Why did the demo completely fall apart within 30 minutes after we moved elsewhere?


Well guess fuckin why.

Because they were stopped by invisible hand. It was much easier to throw bricks from the kke/pame crowd and go home without much fuss

[Thirsty Crow]

I feel funny like fuckin a smart ass up so I ll pick up the glove.Wait a minute, why the hell I am a smart ass now?? These are honest questions, and I think that they could expand on the overall context of this conflict, clearing things up. They aren't meant as baiting or anything. What the fuck man?



In the first I can only say what Papariga said, since I m not a member of either PAME or KKE, when she said that they want to apply pressure so that the new laws woundnt pass. As for the second, the expected outcome was to escalate the class struggle. Something that was pretty much done.From my knowledge, Papariga is an MP of KKE in the Parliament, right?
What do you, personally, make of this? Do you think it was possible to "exert pressure" in such a scale that these laws wouldn't pass? I again stress that I'm not an expert on the concrete determinations of class struggle in Greece, I'm not posing as an expert or a theoretical genius or whatever, but I have to say this: everybody should be clear that "pressure", in the form of general strike and demonstration witnessed in Greece, will not, can not, have any impact upon the parasites voting on the bill in parliament. In other words, I don't think it's honest to claim that these actions have a chance to stop the laws being pushed through.

As far as what you state about the expected outcome (that second part of it), sure, I can see why people would think such actions could escalate class struggle. Indeed, it might be the case, no argument here.

But something seems strange here: if class struggle were to escalate, then people could expect that to be the consequence of the enforced new laws, of the laws being passed, which again takes us to the first point, that the goal of the strike+demo of stopping the laws is altogether illusory. Do you agree that for class struggle to escalate these new laws must be passed?




What "other actions"? This was the most successful strike in Greece's history,at least after 1974. And it was combined with inormous demos, occupations in dozens of ministries, town halls etc. Something that tends to be forgoten after the feud. If this shit didnt happened, we would have wings on our legs right now. Something that looks like another situation, 5/5/2010. It took one and a half year for the working class to rise up again and something happened, again, that clipped the wings. You see a common factor?
What I meant is this: the plan was to encirle the parliament... and then what? That's what I meant - if there were actions planned after the bills go through. Which also brings up the question of this conflict - did this violence undermine any such plan?
And yes, I do understand what do you mean by clipped wings and a common factor, but I'm interested in concrete practical actions which were possible after the bill was passed. But I'm aware that your knowledge on this is limited since you're not a member of PAME/KKE. That's why I think FSL's input would be useful alongside yours.




I guess so. Maybe if we had more dissent goverment, they would quit too.Well, I guess that escalating class struggle and building the movement is one and the same thing.
Though, it's interesting to note that PASOK's minister of labour voted against the laws, and that the party announced that she will be expelled.



If you talk on KKE, thats all they say for the last year and a half. Matter of fact, the other Left's critic on KKE is that they are acting really leftisty cause they had left behind the struggle for today's answers and they focused only to "Peoples Power".So, according to your opinion, for the last 1 and a half year, KKE have been emphasizing that the only way out of this mess for Greek workers' is a workers' revolution.
But I was getting at this: in the documents I read, there was only the pretty much vague call for workers' power - no coherent program, no answer to the question of the necessity of the spreadout of revolution, and yes, at least a European revolution, and finally a global one?

I'm asking this, I'm stating this because there is one thing that troubles me - the fact that the workers' revolution must spread as quickly as possible, and then we have KKE which doesn't address these issues which brings for the question - for what kind of "people's power" do they act?? Alongside this, they do call for the cancellation of debt - which can be acheived within the bourgeois system.

I hope this is clear. These are assumptions and doubts, not dishonest attacks. And it may very well be that I lack some information. So don't take this to be some kind of a definitive position of mine. And please, if you know of materials, post links.



Not everybody is fighting for a revolution. ANTARSYA is more focused on things like canceling the debt, KKE m-l on the everyday struggle, KKE on making a full revolution without any mediate programm.Sorry, but that doesn't really answer my question. I'm asking for the positions with regard to the very possibility of workers' revolution, especially in its' international dimension, and the way in which it's concrete forms are proposed.

[aty]

It never did that.Anyone could get in the square,PAME was seeing the hools coming and they told them to get out.
The cops,believe it or not,is cooperating with the hooligans.They let them throw some molotovs and bombs to get some people hurt and then they were arresting them.
It didn't protect the parliament.It encircle it just to show the power workers have.
Stop lying:
http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/49312


12.35 People tweeting from Syntagma are saying that demonstrators are urging protesters assocated with Pame, who have formed a human chain around parliament, to allow more people enter the square. For its part, Pame has told the General Confederation of Greek Labour (GSEE) that hooded youths must not be allowed enter the square as part of its demonstration.


13.05 Members of the Communist-backed Pame union mean business with the human chain they have formed around parliament. They are letting no one through the cordon in front of parliament and are even demanding that journalists present their professional ID in order to be let through. The question is, of course, under what legal authority they are acting.


14.51 Violent demonstrators have attacked and broken the cordon formed around parliament by members of the Communist-backed Pame trade union.


15.19 How the situation can change. There are now hand-to-hand fighting betweeen "anarchists" and members of the Pame, the Communist-backed trade union. The scenes being broadcast on television show crowds of people beating each other with flag staffs, hurling rocks at each other.

[Thirsty Crow]

Anarchists with molotovs and bats also knew bill will be passed. I didnt see them do anything but battering cops
This is getting really tiring. No substance here, only "but the OTHER side also knew that".


All of greek commrades thanked my posts in which i answered those questions , and i answered them to other forumers at least 5-6 times. My arrogance is natural towards someone so inferior with arguments or ideas.
Post no. 154 in this thread, big mouth liar, where you first attempted to answer the points raised, so go see if that's true what you're telling me. What the fuck. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2270688&postcount=154

Also, might I add: so you're telling me that you would relate to workers' with much less political experience and knowledge with such arrogance?? Oh the fuck.

[No_Leaders]

I think it's obvious that Stalinists like KKE have nothing in common with working class, anarchists, and other revolutionaries. Their actions cannot be justified and their goal to stand outside parliament chanting slogans and waving signs accomplished absolutely nothing. The fact that they forcefully pushed people away from getting closer to parliament shows who's side they're on. Why in the hell would they try to form a protective line around cops and parliament building? When other people came to try and push through PAME forcefully confronted these people. They debated and argued and violence ensued. Finally anarchists showed up and thats when the fighting raged on. KKE are not on our side at all and have shown their true color. They're simply reformists (they have seats in parliament after all ha) and obviously class collaborators on the side of the state. Turning in anarchists and comrade to the police. Fuck them. Seriously how can you people defend such reactionary tools? I guess this really does shine to light the mass divisions between anarchists and certain communists sects that still exist today..

[FSL]

But I was getting at this: in the documents I read, there was only the pretty much vague call for workers' power - no coherent program, no answer to the question of the necessity of the spreadout of revolution, and yes, at least a European revolution, and finally a global one?

I'm asking this, I'm stating this because there is one thing that troubles me - the fact that the workers' revolution must spread as quickly as possible, and then we have KKE which doesn't address these issues which brings for the question - for what kind of "people's power" do they act?? Alongside this, they do call for the cancellation of debt - which can be acheived within the bourgeois system.

I hope this is clear. These are assumptions and doubts, not dishonest attacks. And it may very well be that I lack some information. So don't take this to be some kind of a definitive position of mine. And please, if you know of materials, post links.

KKE is not a trotskyist party, it is however an internationalist party. Therefore it does think that a revolution can and will start in one country first, because of the imbalances in capitalism and in the workers' movement and. This country should build socialism and help the worker's movement elsewhere.
The communist party of Greece, even though it's a party of a small country and obviously doesn't have unlimited financial resources has tried in the past decade to make the movement is sees itself as a part of -the marxist-leninist, communism movement- more coherent and unified in theory and in action.
That's why it supported meetings of communist parties to come to at least a basic understanding, these meetings were held in Athens for years and they are scheduled to take place in Athen again this year. Ofc many of the communist parties involved don't have "our line" but this is the point of it. To interact with other parties and share experiences so they might join "our line" or something similar instead of just wasting themselves away and turning center-left.

So no we're not trotskyists, we won't shoose suicide if revolution does not spread immediately everywhere but we're very much internationalists, thank you.


The call is mainly to overthrow capital. That is the goal. This goal can be analyzed very basically in socializing the concentrated and strategic means of production (concentrated commerce, industry, construction, banking, health etc) and in promoting collective ownership where small producers dominate (maiinly in some sectors of retail trade and in agriculture).
Not cancel the debt (or rather part of it) like Argentina or Russia did but deny it, like revolutionary Russia did. And exit from all imperialistic blocs, most importantly the EU and NATO.

This isn't vague, but it is general for a reason. If you want you can look at the documents from the latest congress and see more specifically what do we think of socialism, where we think things went wrong before etc.
The aim here isn't to immediately turn everyone into a communist modeled after us because that's not happening, just to make them realize they can live better without any industrialists or bankers over their head. After this has been done we will ofcourse carry on promoting the organization of the economy into something that can genuinely be called socialist, moving towards communism.

[FSL]

Stop lying:

They are letting no one through the cordon in front of parliament and are even demanding that journalists present their professional ID in order to be let through

http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/1/49312
What a load of garbage.

[Thirsty Crow]

I think it's obvious that Stalinists like KKE have nothing in common with working class, anarchists, and other revolutionaries. Their actions cannot be justified and their goal to stand outside parliament chanting slogans and waving signs accomplished absolutely nothing.
I'm gonna stick my neck out and do something which could sound as apologism: it's very important NOT to fetishize immediate victories and instead focus on the revolutionary strategy itself. The first question we should be asking ourselves is this: was it even possible to prevent the laws from being pushed through without starting an actual revolution - with all the backlash from the Greek military forces and with a good chance of a direct intervention on behalf of the EU forces.

In short, it's not so simple.

[Искра]

After reading this thread I lost my last hope in mankind. Well, to be honest I’m not, but it’s theatrical start (and I like it).

Here are few things I have to say:

1) It’s fucking brilliant how people who identify themselves with ML tendency are all defending KKE, party which their fellow ML’s consider REVISIONIST and REACTIONARY (and all other boring and predictable “bad words” you have in your sleeve). Ok, we all know that it’s normal that people of same tendency back each other up, but this is fucking idiotic and you kids overslept your Marxism class, cause Marxism is not about blind following but about critical evaluation of theory and practice. I’m not gonna write here what I fell about ML (Stalinism) and all that shit – you know my tendency so you pretty much know what do I think – but I’m gonna try to ask one last time – are you fucking blind? Even ML’s, with all their shit, are against bourgeoisies state and its police, army etc. There’s no way to claim that one person or organisation is revolutionary if it’s backed up with police. If it’s against working class. Reading this thread I can only laugh to stupid excuses and childish posts by some horny teenagers (of course I don’t consider all pro-KKE posters as such since there was some kind of a serious discussion here... but now it’s all gone to hell).

2) I would like to commend the most idiotic argument I have ever read and that is: you were not there. If that is argument you accept then half of the horny Stalinist teenagers here should shut their little mouth and stop posting here – because they were not in the Greece and how can they defend KKE then. Also, then we should take this forum off the Net or stop discussing about Russian or Spanish Revolution – because none of us were there! Imagine just how would little Maoist kittens react when they are discussing their glorious Nepalese and Naxalite Maoists and I jump into their little discussion with the biggest argument ever – shut the fuck up, you were not there! Come on people, you can do better than that. Of course that we were not there! I wasn’t in Greece or in Russia or in Spain or in Nepal or in India! I don’t have enough money to go to south of Croatia (I was never in Dubrovnik for example). And to be somewhere... is that really a point? According to that argument only people from one place can discuss about certain situation which happen there – because they were there. Imagine what our society would look like if this argument really means something. Marxism tends to analyse situations and historical events in order to learn something from them, to see what mistakes of movement were, what were fuck ups, what good things etc were so that our movement can move... Yeah, it’s all about progress.

Also one question to ML’s: Imagine that anarchists were in PAME position and PAME in anarchist. All of you would call anarchists police dogs and claim that this is because of their bourgeoisie ideology. I know you would, cause you are all so predictable...

[tir1944]

If it had gotten attention, then why would Anarchists and the Greek Working Class, allow the military to take over?
Yes,it would have gotten very much attention,ESPECIALLY from the Greek and EU Military.
Also there are only like several thousand Anarchists in Greece,they LACK THE SUPPORT OF THE WORKING MASSES (which,BTW,isn't armed.).



Like I said, burn the old, build the new. You're just a fucking moron if you can't grasp the simplicity I'm trying to express to you.

You're just a fucking moron if you can't grasp the simplicity of the fact that there's no way a gang of anarcho-hooligans could have "done" a revolution yesterday.
That is all.

[Enragé]

Ok... I've been reading this thread and the one before now for almost two hours. This is my opinion, for everyone who wants to read it. Ofcourse, I am not from Greece, so my opinion is based on second hand info. On the other hand, the first hand info is contradictory (i.e different people say different things).

1. KKE was absolutely wrong in not allowing organised groups to pass their lines. You can say 'everyone was allowed to join the KKE protest', but if this excludes those who are organised outside of the KKE then you are basically saying 'you can join the protest if you listen to the KKE, if you dont, we'll beat you away'.

2. Frustration grew because of the KKE attitude. This lead to scuffles, then to fighting, then to the throwing of even molotv cocktails. The fighting and the molotov cocktails are absolutely disgusting. It is THIS which the NAR and other respectable and anti-stalinist groups condemn. But this does not mean they agree with what the KKE did. And from my perspective, the cause, or 'primary contradiction', were the actions of the KKE. In the same way terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians are absolutely disgusting, but at the same time they are the result of what Israel does to palestinians.

[b]3. The way forward?.... I dont know. BUT THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD BE DISCUSSING NOW!

[tir1944]

Jesus fucking christ,a revolution is not done by a gang of anarcho-hooligans.
It has to be organized, properly led,and it has to be done by the working masses and their avangarde.

[FSL]

There’s no way to claim that one person or organisation is revolutionary if it’s backed up with police.
There are countless photos and videos online. No one was backed up by police. Whoever attacked the demo was pushed a 100 metres back by the demonstrators themselves, no police.

Don't you think it's funny how you can keep on saying something and it still won't change what happened?
It's also tiring and borders propaganda but funny in a way.

[Thirsty Crow]

Jesus fucking christ,a revolution is not done by a gang of anarcho-hooligans.
It has to be organized, properly led,and it has to be done by the working masses and their avangarde.
No one is claiming that the reolution would be done if those people were able to storm the parliament. Not a single person argues so, and that brings forth the question: why are you attacking the positions which nobody puts forward, why the straw man?

[tir1944]

And what would have happened had these hooligans stormed the parliament?
What? What can possible the point of such an action right now?

[Искра]

Oh, yeah one more thing – hooligan.


Hooligan is a liberal world used to describe people who are damaging private property – for example football firms who damage local restaurants and cafes while fighting. Also, this word is used for people who defiant states authority – for example police.

It’s fucking disgrace that people here are using this word and giving it to anarchists. By doing this you are using state and liberal rhetoric to discredit revolutionary left forces – you are “discrediting” tendency you don’t agree with, while state will discredit revolutionary left as all.

Also, accusations for vandalism and your fear of “vandalising parliament” – what the fuck?! Who let Tony Blair here?! For “hardcore” Stalinists you people use to much of liberal rhetoric.

[FSL]

but if this excludes those who are organised outside of the KKE
The protest was of PAME that consists of dozens of unions and represents thousands of workers, not of KKE. Not every construction workers is a party member, I hope you can understand the difference.

We've never and we'll never allow other blocs in ours and yesterday it was shown that we're doing that for a very good reason.
Other blocs should take an example out of how we handle our organization and let those "anarchists" have their own protests where they'll do things their way.

Hell, they could just march in the parliament today or tomorrow without anyone stopping them. Couldn't they?

[FSL]

It’s fucking disgrace that people here are using this word and giving it to anarchists. By doing this you are using state and liberal rhetoric to discredit revolutionary left forces – you are “discrediting” tendency you don’t agree with, while state will discredit revolutionary left as all.
You'll have to accept the fact that for some people these "revolutionary left forces" are neither revolutionary nor left.


I don't see how "discrediting them" affects the workers' movement in a negative way.
In fact I think it's very positive.

[Искра]

And what would have happened had these hooligans stormed the parliament?
What? What can possible the point of such an action right now?
Making damage to a symbol of state and liberal democracy. Symbolic action which could raise peoples spirits all across the World.

Also, stop using "hool" world. You don't wanna get stomped (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSrbqqfnjwg).

[Искра]

You'll have to accept the fact that for some people these "revolutionary left forces" are neither revolutionary nor left.
I don't see how "discrediting them" affects the workers' movement in a negative way.
In fact I think it's very positive.

HqmK58lDkac

And what do you do so revolutionary, baby?

[tir1944]

Symbolic action which could raise peoples spirits all across the World. Burning the parliament and causing the Military to declare Martial Law is NOT "a symbolic action".


And yes, i'm sure it would have "raised spirits" of Anarchists,hooligans and such around the world,however the working masses would have been shocked and disgusted.And not without a reason,i'd say.


Also, stop using "hool" world. You don't wanna get stomped (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSrbqqfnjwg). They're still hooligans.
Jebi se i ti i tvoje pretnje cipelarenjem,smrade.

[FSL]

And what do you do so revolutionary, baby?
What is there to do besides throwing molotovs?
Nothing, you've guessed it, you clever thing you.
So that's what I do, I do nothing.

[Ravachol]

And what would have happened had these hooligans stormed the parliament?
What? What can possible the point of such an action right now?

That is not the BLOODY point. The point is that it is not up to KKE to decide what goes and what doesn't go. THAT is the point. If they do attempt to do that and police the protest, then there's going to be a fucking problem.

If anarchists had blocked the road to parliament (for whatever reason) and KKE members would have decided to storm it I would have equally criticized the anarchists for attempting to police the struggle.

Yes the molotov was disgusting, yes the confrontation would have been better if it had been avoided. But the simple fact remains that the whole cause of the mess is KKE's vanguardist delusion that they are the sole 'voice of the working class' and they get to decide who goes where and what is acceptable action and what is not, enforcing this with a blockade. If people then proceed to break through this blockade then the blame is on those who initially sought to police the protest in the first place. PERIOD.

That's all there is to this discussion: The KKE is already behaving like it has captured state power and enacts it's own authority in 'the name of the working class'. The pro-KKE camp obviously thinks that is ok and has no qualms about acting like a police force (in collaboration with the real one) while others (without excusing all behavior from the other camp) think this is an inexcusable offense.

That this actually flows from the tenets of vanguardism and the desire to caputre state power is another discussion which I don't even want to start here, seeing as how there have been numerous MLs who have rightfully criticized the KKE here.

[Искра]

Burning the parliament and causing the Military to declare Martial Law is NOT "a symbolic action".
It is a sybolic action, because as I said important symbol of liberal democracy is attacked/demaged/destroyed. Why do you think that they are defening it? Also, as I pointed earlier it wasn't just about this symbolic action it was about making fuss and trying to stop voting. To stop voting a law you need to take a direct action against parliament. I'm not saying that anarchists and other protestors (whole bunch of people you are all trying to avoid to mention) could make what they wanted, but still no one has right to stop them.

Also, you don't know that military will declare martial Law. You are making speculations. Why would PASOK want army on the streets? That would remind Greeks of junta and more people will be on the streets.


And yes, i'm sure it would have "raised spirits" of Anarchists,hooligans and such around the world,however the working masses would have been shocked and disgusted.And not without a reason,i'd say.
Kid - where do you live? In Croatia on demostrations one crazy guy said that we should burn parilament and people were cheering him... It looks like working class here is more radical then Internet Stalinists.


They're still hooligans.And you are a confused liberal.


Jebi se i ti i tvoje pretnje cipelarenjem,smrade.
I'm joking (stomp is a reggae dance of hooligans) and not making threats. You don't have to curse me on Croatian you can just say fuck you.

[Enragé]

The protest was of PAME that consists of dozens of unions and represents thousands of workers, not of KKE. Not every construction workers is a party member, I hope you can understand the difference.


I do, but my point still stands if you replace 'KKE' in what i said with 'KKE/PAME'.


We've never and we'll never allow other blocs in ours and yesterday it was shown that we're doing that for a very good reason.


I dont see how you not allowing other blocs in yours leading to other blocs attacking your bloc shows how not allowing other blocs in yours is done for a good reason. In fact it just got people hurt.


Other blocs should take an example out of how we handle our organization and let those "anarchists" have their own protests where they'll do things their way.

The picture posted earlier in this thread, as well as a video, from just before the outbreak of the fighting clearly shows many people not clad in black. In fact i dont see one kouloufouroi (sp?) there [i could be wrong, but there arent many]. What i do see, among other things, is an elderly man (non-KKE/PAME) discussing with another elderly man (KKE/PAME i presume). So these were not just 'anarchists'. What i also see is one idiot throwing a rock at the KKE line, which was bullshit ofcourse. But that is one man. You need to come to grips with the fact that much of the radical left isnt organised like the KKE/PAME. They dont control their own blocs (whether you think that is good or bad, see how i avoided the word 'policing' even though i think thats what it comes down to alot of the times, but this is not the discussion here).


Hell, they could just march in the parliament today or tomorrow without anyone stopping them. Couldn't they?

No, they cant. Momentum is important here. Let me put it like this: the KKE/PAME is organised rationally and centralisticly, correct? The assorted groups of the rest of the radical left, and especially the anarchists and new groups like the 'we do not pay', together with the unorganised (who im sure still exist even in greece) form a fluid, decentralised whole. What they do is based on the moment, often on emotion. This can mean that the spur of the moment, the coming together of certain conditions (alot of people on the streets, a semi-organised radical minority wanting to storm parliament, the anger over the austerity measures) can lead to a perhaps succesful attack on parliament. When this moment passes, no individual group ('groupuscule' as they said in paris 68), can on its own recreate such a moment, or attack parliament on its own. KKE/PAME might be able to do that (im still waiting for the moment, and maybe itll come but this doesnt make me very hopeful), and that shows an advantage to the way of organising of KKE/PAME and is a compliment to their strength. But this is not the case for all the other radical left groups. This does not mean, however, that a succesful attack on parliament was completely out of the question.

Anyway, the point in the end isnt even whether or not an attack on parliament would be succesful. Im not claiming the KKE/PAME prevented a revolution. In fact if KKE/PAME have the power to do that then there cannot be a revolution anyway. The angry masses wouldve just swept KKE/PAME aside, they didnt, because they were disorganised and not so mass-ful as some seem to think. The point however is, why would you prevent an attempted attack on parliament? The burning of the symbol of bourgeois 'democracy' in the country where democracy was supposedly invented, would have sent shockwaves around the world and, i think, have had a positive impact on the confidence of the masses in general. So why prevent an attempt of that?

[FSL]

That is not the BLOODY point. The point is that it is not up to KKE to decide what goes and what doesn't go. THAT is the point. If they do attempt to do that and police the protest, then there's going to be a fucking problem.

Last post for today, I really don't want to be in caps but I doubt it will get into your head otehrwise. Anyway, let me try.

The protest was called by unions. Unions. They called the strike, they organized the protest, they hadn't made any plans to burn the parliament down, they hadn't given away molotov cocktails to their members. Is this hard to get? Is this a complex idea somehow?
Do the unions as organizations of the working class have the right to protest as they see fit or should they always be stepping aside so that the few hundred thugs can have their way?

Do unions and workers have a right to decide what goes and doesn't go or are all decisions left in the hands of the few hundred "anarchist" thugs who already manage to monopolize every other demo?
Should unions just step aside every time a so called anarchist tells them to just because he's an anarchist and because he can throw molotovs and rocks at them if they don't?


You know what? You want protests to go down your way? Well, gain the majority. Enroll people in unions, convince them your way is the way to go, organize protests, burn everything if you like. But do that.
You want to break someone else's demonstration so you can have some fun?
Well, if that someone else is a communist, expect him to fight back.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't think that the parliament could be burned down. Isn't it made of stone? :closedeyes:

Anyway, for those who say that storming parliament was impossible: well, only if there were (as piet said) machine gun nests posted all around the periphery, with maybe some light artillery posted too. Take a look at the first photo in the "greek newswire" thread. That crowd could've easily gotten within pissing distance of parliament, had it the desire. And no, occupying parliament and/or seriously disrupting the Greek political process doesn't automatically mean burning parliament to the ground or hanging the heads of politicians from the ramparts. It would've been a powerful statement that the working class are prepared to sabotage the very political process which in turn tries to sabotage their lives.

Sooner or later the KKE is gonna have to shit or get off the toilet. :cool:

[FSL]

I dont see how you not allowing other blocs in yours leading to other blocs attacking your bloc shows how not allowing other blocs in yours is done for a good reason. In fact it just got people hurt.


The picture posted earlier in this thread, as well as a video, from just before the outbreak of the fighting clearly shows many people not clad in black. In fact i dont see one kouloufouroi (sp?) there [i could be wrong, but there arent many]. What i do see, among other things, is an elderly man (non-KKE/PAME) discussing with another elderly man (KKE/PAME i presume). So these were not just 'anarchists'. What i also see is one idiot throwing a rock at the KKE line, which was bullshit ofcourse. But that is one man. You need to come to grips with the fact that much of the radical left isnt organised like the KKE/PAME. They dont control their own blocs (whether you think that is good or bad, see how i avoided the word 'policing' even though i think thats what it comes down to alot of the times, but this is not the discussion here).
People got hurt but the demonstration wasn't broken.
It was pretty much broken 30 minutes after we moved.
We're fine with some people getting hurt. They're fine with that, they don't mind. Even the man who died and who was a party member and unionist for 30 years would be fine with that.
We're not fine with people trying to break up our demonstration.
So yeah, the reasons were good.

You're not describing anything other than what I said. That other bloc had people throwing rocks. What did others do? Nothing. You may think throwing rocks to people without any protection is an expression of politics. I don't.
Allowing that bloc in ours would have allowed that stonethrower and more like him in as well. People can start controlling what happens in their blocs. They don't want to do that, fine. But we will be controlling what happens in our bloc. They can't stop us from doing that.




No, they cant. Momentum is important here. Let me put it like this: the KKE/PAME is organised rationally and centralisticly, correct? The assorted groups of the rest of the radical left, and especially the anarchists and new groups like the 'we do not pay', together with the unorganised (who im sure still exist even in greece) form a fluid, decentralised whole. What they do is based on the moment, often on emotion. This can mean that the spur of the moment, the coming together of certain conditions (alot of people on the streets, a semi-organised radical minority wanting to storm parliament, the anger over the austerity measures) can lead to a perhaps succesful attack on parliament. When this moment passes, no individual group ('groupuscule' as they said in paris 68), can on its own recreate such a moment, or attack parliament on its own. KKE/PAME might be able to do that (im still waiting for the moment, and maybe itll come but this doesnt make me very hopeful), and that shows an advantage to the way of organising of KKE/PAME and is a compliment to their strength. But this is not the case for all the other radical left groups. This does not mean, however, that a succesful attack on parliament was completely out of the question.

Anyway, the point in the end isnt even whether or not an attack on parliament would be succesful. Im not claiming the KKE/PAME prevented a revolution. In fact if KKE/PAME have the power to do that then there cannot be a revolution anyway. The angry masses wouldve just swept KKE/PAME aside, they didnt, because they were disorganised and not so mass-ful as some seem to think. The point however is, why would you prevent an attempted attack on parliament? The burning of the symbol of bourgeois 'democracy' in the country where democracy was supposedly invented, would have sent shockwaves around the world and, i think, have had a positive impact on the confidence of the masses in general. So why prevent an attempt of that?
Are you basing that on anything?
What did happen had an excellent impact on people's confidence.
It's nice to know someone can stand up against thugs.


You seem to think that a "bang" will do the trick. Well, many others as well as I think differently. The "bang" will just be the appearance, many things must have come before and after that.

[Comrade-Z]

The KKE needs to be visibly shunned if they show up at any future demos. Not physical violence, but just some mass gesture like booing and some hand gesture like what you would use to ward off evil vampires or something. Furthermore, leaflets should be circulated explaining how the KKE are dangerous coalition partners to work with who try to monopolize demos and decisions on the range of acceptable tactics and who will attack you and/or turn you over to the police if you try to do something revolutionary that they don't agree with.

Edit: This is a good start:
http://actforfreedomnow.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/attack-on-the-offices-of-the-communist-party-of-greece-and-offices-of-pasok-communists-kicked-out-of-universities-thessaloniki-arson-attack-on-the-offices-of-the-kke-communist-party-of-greece-in-t/

[Enragé]

People got hurt but the demonstration wasn't broken

what about the demonstration of the people trying to get to parliament? That sure was broken, by you. Also, explain how they would 'break the demonstration' by being inside your bloc?


That other bloc had people throwing rocks.
there was 1 guy throwing a rock. And he threw it because you werent letting people through to protest austerity, which, funnily enough, is what you were supposedly doing as well.


You may think throwing rocks to people without any protection is an expression of politics. I don't.


Every act is an expression of politics even if its not overtly political (which throwing a rock at a certain thing is, since it expresses your opposition against that which you throw it against, that is to say, it expresses a political stance vis a vis that thing, one of opposition), but lets not get into a philosophy debate. I agree basicly with you that in and of itself throwing a rock isnt 'all that', and that if you do it to people not wearing protection you're sick in the head.


What did others do? Nothing.

Which might be wrong, but i cant blame them since KKE/PAME brought it on themselves by blocking the route to parliament for people who wanted to protest austerity in a different way than KKE/PAME did. All i can say is that I would have probably done something about it, though maybe my level of frustration would have been so high at the point in time it happened that i wouldve thought 'fuck it'.


Allowing that bloc in ours would have allowed that stonethrower and more like him in as well.

So? Because of what you guys did the stonethrowers started throwing stones at YOU instead of at the police.


Are you basing that on anything?


The momentum story i base on my experience in relatively disorganised (especially keeping in mind the high level of organisation the KKE/PAME exhibits) protests and confrontations.

And i know you know movements come in waves. Calling for a protest against X might have tens of thousands on the streets at point Z in time but only a few hundred at point Y. Thats an example of momentum on a different scale.

The positive impact of the demolishing of parliament, well.. why wouldnt it be positive? The signal it sends is intense. And at least where im from, it would get it through people's sometimes extremely thick skulls that the Greek people and the Greek government and ruling class are opposed to eachother. Not to mention that they were voting through austerity measures inside the parliament at the time, so it would give all people facing the same measures the idea that parliament is not untouchable.


You seem to think that a "bang" will do the trick. Well, many others as well as I think differently. The "bang" will just be the appearance, many things must have come before and after that.


I dont think it will do the trick at all. All im saying is that the 'bang' would have had a positive influence on those things that might do the trick (community and workplace organising, succesful protests, the opening up of debate, the open display of discontent, the building of workers' power from the ground up). All i see in the insurrectionalist fetish with the 'disruption of normality', is the need to organise something which can take the place of normality once its disrupted.

[Sasha]

About the apparent "new word to parrot ad nasuem" BLOC, indeed it is unacceptable in a broad demonstration to join an other groups bloc uninvited, I agree 100% with this. But can we stop pretending that the kke/pame security was there protecting their rank and file from "ze anarchysts!" All pictures/vids, also the ones posted by kke members/supporters show nothing between the line of kke thugs and the riot cops, nothing!
So stop this distortions and intentional abuse of positions you know anarchists/autonomists agree with to hide that what was attacked was an armed group of thugs who where more than comfortable to stand with their back to the exact people who, as shown that day, do not hesitate to kill their members.
It is from the pictures more than clear who the KKE considerd the enemy that day and it was definitely not the state, troika or their cops.
This is all one big flashback to 1st of may in Istanbul where one sect of stalinists armed with steelbars in cooperation with the cops attacked another one in the middle of the demo. Priorities, priorities....

[A Marxist Historian]

The thing I feel most bad about following the whole discussion, is that there are still people that think that if you *just* storm parliament, kill all its ministers and drag their body trough the streets, you would have a 'revolution' and suddenly you would be able to declare a socialist state. If only Lenin knew that in his time, it just takes 600 guys and some molotov cocktails right?!

It would have been a great show, but an absolute mistake and massacre for the whole greek working class. As if your enemy is just in parliament, and when they're gone, they're gone right? That is just foolish and childish. It would have been a mistake not because it's not a good idea but because there is no sort of dual power for the moment, there are no openings in police layers, army layers, most greeks would've been entirely absent in that process too... And that's just a handful of reasons, there are many more. In other circumstances, it could be a great idea of course, but it would be more symbolic than decisive.

I think the KKE made serious mistakes here, but dudes... get real. This is not MTV Jackass.
Besides that, the KKE is pretty powerful. You cannot seriously assume that all its members present at that time are all brainwashed like zombies who are slaves to their party. These are not the 40's anymore. I'm sure most of their rank and file are honest people who can see right from wrong. The KKE was SURROUNDING the parliament. NOT protecting it. It doesn't even matter why they were there. You don't smash someone's head in because they don't let you through, or hit a crowd with molotov cocktails. You just don't do that. Never. They are working class people protesting in THEIR way. You want to trash parliament and spend your day in utterly useless fighting? Fine, but please wait until others go home to do something more useful: ORGANIZE. We could enter a revolutionary situation, but we're just not quite in it yet. If you decide this is the time to trash stuff, fine, but do so on your own behalf. A revolution is more than that, we just don't live in tribes where you could kill 2 people and take stuff over anymore.

And in Greece, there is much more work to do. And just maybe, if you would leave your hoods and stones at home, someday 3.000.000 greeks might show up and now that would change the situation.

This is a revolutionary situation now in Greece. Just the other day, the Finance Minister stated in public, well, if you don't like the way we are running Greece, overthrow us.

Is the working class ready to overthrow Papandreou? Yes, they are. Would storming the parliament be the perfect signal for this? Certainly.

So in this case, the anarchists are in the right and the KKE is in the wrong.

Not the first time.

I am not a supporter of anarchism, I'm a Trotskyist, and I spend half my time here on Revleft arguing with anarchists. And I even think that the KKE has often had a better line than many of its so-called "Trotskyist" critics in stupid little reformist coalitions. But facts are facts.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Would you cross a picket line? Were not the tens of thousands of workers rallying under the flags of PAME, KKE, and other demonstrating trade unions on strike? Was not their picket surrounding parliament?

A picket line ... to defend the capitalist government of Greece?

The purpose of a picket line is to prevent people from scabbing on a strike by going to work. Seems like then it was the KKE who were the scabs, as the purpose of their "picket line" was the exact opposite, namely to protect the parliamentarians scabbing on the people of Greece by passing anti-worker legislation.

-M.H.-

[Alaz]

...little reformist coalitions like Syntagma (did I get that spelled right?) But facts are facts.

-M.H.-


"Syntagma", meaning 'the constitution', is the name of the square.

I believe you meant to say "Synaspismos".

[A Marxist Historian]

a) They woudlnt b) Because it happened...


Sad the state of basic misinformation the KKE has sunk to in its internal education.

Police join the Bolshevik Revolution? They couldn't even join the *February* Revolution, a spontaneous working class affair.

The police were hunted down and killed by the workers. And the Bolsheviks and other political parties had nothing in particular to do with this.

-M

[A Marxist Historian]

"Syntagma", meaning 'the constitution', is the name of the square.

I believe you meant to say "Synaspismos".

Yes, thanks. Fixed!

-M.H.-

[Magón]

Yes,it would have gotten very much attention,ESPECIALLY from the Greek and EU Military.
Also there are only like several thousand Anarchists in Greece,they LACK THE SUPPORT OF THE WORKING MASSES (which,BTW,isn't armed.).

Well who would stop them from arming themselves? I mean, cop shops in Greece have guns, why couldn't the working class pick those up? Why couldn't the Anarchists, with a few pamphlets and what have you, work to start advancing the working class in greece, into a revolutionary force that we can actually see taking over? There's no saying, it's complete speculation, on why or why not, the Greek Anarchists can or can't gain the people's support.


You're just a fucking moron if you can't grasp the simplicity of the fact that there's no way a gang of anarcho-hooligans could have "done" a revolution yesterday.
That is all.

It's called a stepping stone, jackass. You know, like you take one step with one foot, then follow it up with another. I never claimed a revolution would break out over night, that's just ridiculous, and what you and every other KKE supporter think we're trying to say. It's a stepping stone. Learn would you?

[Le Socialiste]

Originally Posted by Die Rote Fahne:
What right is it of the Stalinites to prevent them from doing so?



The right of the stronger

This...I can't even wrap my head around this statement. Holy fuck.

[PhoenixAsh]

So so , blind... So many members of police and army forces sided with february and october uprisings.
Stop telling us that KKE was supposed to be sympathetic please.
That wouldnt happen since KKE didnt deal with police


Yes actually the KKE did exactly that. Apparantly people refuse to believe it and fall for the KKE lies that they merely handed "police provacateurs" back to them.

But considering what has been called policeprovocateur: basically anybody who does not belong to PAME/KKE....you can draw your own conclusions from this.

And this was not me even mentioning this...this was right from the KE fanboys mouths.



But the MLs friends I mentioned did see the police move through the lines of PAME/KKE...they made way for them....and they left them unopposed.
They handed people over to the cops. And they even linked in front of deploying police to effectively prevent protesters from getting at the police and preventing them from deploying.

Such is teh nature of KKE/PAME.

[PhoenixAsh]

a) They woudlnt b) Because it happened



Yes they most definately did.

Let me reitterate it for you.

PAME/KKE brands everybody they do not like and who doesn't like them with the most insane names.

We have had "thugs" 'hooligans" "anarcho-fascists" "para-state troops" and "police collaborating thugs" pass the debate.

Now the KKE fan-club here has already admitted in the other thread that PAME/KKE was handing people over to the cops.

Put 1 and 1 together here.

So yeah...they most definately DID collaborate with the cops. They admitted it but they try to white wash it as handing counter revolutionaries over.

Problem is...PAME/KKE has a proven track record, like I said, with branding
everybody they do not like and they do not agree with as such.

[PhoenixAsh]

I am going to ask this for the last damn time.If you so wanted to attack the parliament,why didn't you attack it when PAME and the police left around 5PM?Is that because you really wanted to do it or just because you are provocauters?

because the police moved in after PAME...and sweeped the square after PAME had done most of the work for them....like the news reports state.

[PhoenixAsh]

Maybe you should know what you talk about before you speak on it. I am ruthlesly critical on KKE on many occasions. A skate through "Newswire from Greece" would convinse even people with IQ lower than winter temperatures like cmoney. For the last 10 years I m in the anarchist space. How about that?

Well you have sure managed to convince everybody otherwise. Not ONE word of criticism and you have continuously glossed over the events I told you about that happened that morning....or outright dismissed them.

Instead every post you made except for two about the 1996 situation has been completely supportive of PAME/KKE. And I do believe at one point you even denounced anarchsts in Greece....though I am not going to search out that post in the other thread.

[PhoenixAsh]

Its not about parliament burning. Its about getting masses organized as opposition to individuals throwing stuff at isolated cops they find and then getting lost home. And then come and make firework in the middle of organized crowd

Organised for what exactly? Flag waving, slogan shouting and standing with their thumbs in their asses trying to prevent every other group...NOT just anarchists to enter the square and violently beat them when they do not do what you tell them quickly enough??

[PhoenixAsh]

Its funny how after 750 posts, the post of all the left's announcements(even those that are close to anarchist space),the first hand experiences by two KKE members and mine, many photos, many videos, many analyses the conversation is still at the point of talking about the possibility of a bunch of anarchists burning down the Parliament. Something that btw I ve explained with examples why its imposible to happen in the first place.

Its just 4-5 people that really keep the conversation on the most generic apolitical level. Now, either they are really incapable of thinking, or they have other kind of interests on keeping the converstation to that level. They surely dont have the excuse of let the passion take over due to personal experiences, like many of my friends(many of them wounded too) do.

It is funny that after 750+ posts you have dismissed and ignored the eye witness acount from bot the anarchist line and from inside the PAME demo on what happened that morning and what was done by PAME/KKE. Not one word you expressed over the fact that helmed and armed thugs beat a girl several times in the face untill her eye socket was fractured....while she was unarmed and not attacking PAME/KKE....her only "crime" was standing there being blocked and not moving quickly enough to the likings of the PAME/KKE thugs. Not one word.

THAT speaks volumes. And YOU have the GUTS to talk about how fucking relevant it is that we all focuss on YOUR side of the events which have been disproven by just about every other group that was there out there, photo's, video's, news reports etc.

Yet we are continuously fed distortions and tired rethorics by you guys. THe most outrageous claims....in which the groups which were blocked by PAME were denounced subsequently as hoods, thugs, hooligans, anarcho fascists, para-whatever you called them, police collaborators and police agitators....etc.

Defending PAME/KKE's self claimed right to completely dominate a GENERAL strike. NOT just a PAME/KKE strike but a GENERAL strike on the basis that they organised it and they called first spot.

The arguments brought foreward by the PAME/KKE supporters have even gone so far as to state that the only "real people" and "real workers' were those in PAME/KKE line...completely dismissing the dozens of other groups and the countless of unaffiliated people out there the last days.

Outright denying the PAME/KKE collaborated with the police or handed people over to the plice...by...get this...stating that they merely handed over police agitators. Yeah...and we all know what you have called police agitators: everybody who was not in PAME/KKE.

While there are several reports that PAME/KKE let cops pass through their lines unopposed. That they left the square under police protection.

The tactics you support and defend is standing all impressive waving flags and shouting slogans an for the res doing fuck all except block others and prevent them from doing anything else but accept the dominion of the PAME/KKE peacefull stand still.

This is NOT an apolitical statement. It is a statement to show the depths of the reactionary actions of PAME/KKE. They accomplished nothing that day other than waving the flags and keeping the protests and demo's turning into anything except what PAME/KKE wanted from the GENERAL strike.

[ModelHomeInvasion]

I love how the Anarchists and the Red liberals here are so quick to assume from afar that the KKE were "defending the Greek parliament from thousands of revolutionary workers". In a common yet pathetic twist, they become exactly what it is they accuse the KKE of being - "defenders of the ruling class".

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I love how the Anarchists and the Red liberals here are so quick to assume from afar that the KKE were "defending the Greek parliament from thousands of revolutionary workers". In a common yet pathetic twist, they become exactly what it is they accuse the KKE of being - "defenders of the ruling class".
No,comrade.They are hooligans.It is the same for them if Panathinaikos (Greek team) loses a match and if workers are going to be hurt.People like these must not be marked as ideologists.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I think it's obvious that Stalinists like KKE have nothing in common with working class, anarchists, and other revolutionaries. Their actions cannot be justified and their goal to stand outside parliament chanting slogans and waving signs accomplished absolutely nothing. The fact that they forcefully pushed people away from getting closer to parliament shows who's side they're on. Why in the hell would they try to form a protective line around cops and parliament building? When other people came to try and push through PAME forcefully confronted these people. They debated and argued and violence ensued. Finally anarchists showed up and thats when the fighting raged on. KKE are not on our side at all and have shown their true color. They're simply reformists (they have seats in parliament after all ha) and obviously class collaborators on the side of the state. Turning in anarchists and comrade to the police. Fuck them. Seriously how can you people defend such reactionary tools? I guess this really does shine to light the mass divisions between anarchists and certain communists sects that still exist today..
I also don't think the hooligans who you support have any relation to communism or any other ideology.

[Art Vandelay]

I think the real question is not why did this happen, but why did everyone not expect it to happen?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

That is not the BLOODY point. The point is that it is not up to KKE to decide what goes and what doesn't go. THAT is the point. If they do attempt to do that and police the protest, then there's going to be a fucking problem.

If anarchists had blocked the road to parliament (for whatever reason) and KKE members would have decided to storm it I would have equally criticized the anarchists for attempting to police the struggle.

Yes the molotov was disgusting, yes the confrontation would have been better if it had been avoided. But the simple fact remains that the whole cause of the mess is KKE's vanguardist delusion that they are the sole 'voice of the working class' and they get to decide who goes where and what is acceptable action and what is not, enforcing this with a blockade. If people then proceed to break through this blockade then the blame is on those who initially sought to police the protest in the first place. PERIOD.

That's all there is to this discussion: The KKE is already behaving like it has captured state power and enacts it's own authority in 'the name of the working class'. The pro-KKE camp obviously thinks that is ok and has no qualms about acting like a police force (in collaboration with the real one) while others (without excusing all behavior from the other camp) think this is an inexcusable offense.

That this actually flows from the tenets of vanguardism and the desire to caputre state power is another discussion which I don't even want to start here, seeing as how there have been numerous MLs who have rightfully criticized the KKE here.
WhAAAAT?You have fucked up our balls because PAME didn't "allow" you to storm the parliament and now this is not the point??And please,PAME and KKE members are much more smart than stupid vandals anarcho-hooligans and would never storm a building.And you know who is protecting the state in that case?The hooligans.Because they are from the goverment to destroy demonstrations so people can stop striking.

[Commissar Rykov]

This...I can't even wrap my head around this statement. Holy fuck.
I find it amusing because it was the justification of Fascists during WWII.

[Art Vandelay]

WhAAAAT?You have fucked up our balls because PAME didn't "allow" you to storm the parliament and now this is not the point??And please,PAME and KKE members are much more smart than stupid vandals anarcho-hooligans and would never storm a building.And you know who is protecting the state in that case?The hooligans.Because they are from the goverment to destroy demonstrations so people can stop striking.

Its the fascist anarcho-trot conspiracy again! You guys sound like a broken fucking record.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Its the fascist anarcho-trot conspiracy again! You guys sound like a broken fucking record.
Did I say anarcho-trots?I said anarcho-vandalsHa,you just marked your ideology as vandalism.

[Commissar Rykov]

Did I say anarcho-trots?I said anarcho-vandalsHa,you just marked your ideology as vandalism.
Have you ever thought about wearing a tinfoil hat?

These threads have proven to me something though either you Stalinists are some excellent Cosplayers or you enjoy Reactionary Borderline Fascist Rhetoric. I think I know which one it is but I am still pulling for the Cosplay.

[Art Vandelay]

Did I say anarcho-trots?I said anarcho-vandalsHa,you just marked your ideology as vandalism.

Do you actually think anarcho-trotskyism is a real tendency? Its a joke cause stalinists like you and the ilk you support like to label anything that threatens your hegemony as either anarchists, trotskyists or fascist, or better yet all three. Once again we have seen the M-Ls betray the working class, but why would you expect anything less than a bourgeois elected party. And the only thing they can come up with to justify their actions is the same bullshit conspiracy theories we heard in 1937.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Do you actually think anarcho-trotskyism is a real tendency? Its a joke cause stalinists like you and the ilk you support like to label anything that threatens your hegemony as either anarchists, trotskyists or fascist, or better yet all three. Once again we have seen the M-Ls betray the working class, but why would you expect anything less than a bourgeois elected party. And the only thing they can come up with to justify their actions is the same bullshit conspiracy theories we heard in 1937.
Υeah,instead,Trotskyism has never betrayed the working class.For sure!Lets stop here,a tendency war here is the last thing we need.

[Savage]

Whos that breaking bricks? throwing water bottles and moving in?


Oh, the 'revolutionaries'!

I concur. Purges are necessary to liquidate class enemies, but throwing water bottles? That shit crosses the fucking line.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Αnd for those who say PAME blocked people from visiting Syntagma square,I will agree with what the General Secretary of KKE,Aleka Papariga said :


Syntagma Square is no one's property.It is the people's.Anyone could go visit it.Yes there were masked,in some place of the Syntagma square.Whoever can go to Syntagma square.However,that does not mean each block does not have the right to protect its lines.

[Art Vandelay]

Υeah,instead,Trotskyism has never betrayed the working class.For sure!Lets stop here,a tendency war here is the last thing we need.

Who said I was a trot?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Who said I was a trot?
Um,look at your tendency right to the posts you make, below your posts number.

[Per Levy]

Um,look at your tendency right to the posts you make, below your posts number.

rosario:
Do you actually think anarcho-trotskyism is a real tendency? Its a joke cause stalinists like you and the ilk you support like to label anything that threatens your hegemony as either anarchists, trotskyists or fascist

you got that? anarcho-trotskyism is not a real tendency.

[Delenda Carthago]

It is funny that after 750+ posts you have dismissed and ignored the eye witness acount from bot the anarchist line and from inside the PAME demo on what happened that morning and what was done by PAME/KKE. Not one word you expressed over the fact that helmed and armed thugs beat a girl several times in the face untill her eye socket was fractured....while she was unarmed and not attacking PAME/KKE....her only "crime" was standing there being blocked and not moving quickly enough to the likings of the PAME/KKE thugs. Not one word.

THAT speaks volumes. And YOU have the GUTS to talk about how fucking relevant it is that we all focuss on YOUR side of the events which have been disproven by just about every other group that was there out there, photo's, video's, news reports etc.

Yet we are continuously fed distortions and tired rethorics by you guys. THe most outrageous claims....in which the groups which were blocked by PAME were denounced subsequently as hoods, thugs, hooligans, anarcho fascists, para-whatever you called them, police collaborators and police agitators....etc.

Defending PAME/KKE's self claimed right to completely dominate a GENERAL strike. NOT just a PAME/KKE strike but a GENERAL strike on the basis that they organised it and they called first spot.

The arguments brought foreward by the PAME/KKE supporters have even gone so far as to state that the only "real people" and "real workers' were those in PAME/KKE line...completely dismissing the dozens of other groups and the countless of unaffiliated people out there the last days.

Outright denying the PAME/KKE collaborated with the police or handed people over to the plice...by...get this...stating that they merely handed over police agitators. Yeah...and we all know what you have called police agitators: everybody who was not in PAME/KKE.

While there are several reports that PAME/KKE let cops pass through their lines unopposed. That they left the square under police protection.

The tactics you support and defend is standing all impressive waving flags and shouting slogans an for the res doing fuck all except block others and prevent them from doing anything else but accept the dominion of the PAME/KKE peacefull stand still.

This is NOT an apolitical statement. It is a statement to show the depths of the reactionary actions of PAME/KKE. They accomplished nothing that day other than waving the flags and keeping the protests and demo's turning into anything except what PAME/KKE wanted from the GENERAL strike.

eY7EPE9biO0

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Oh and all you "revolutionaries" tell me honestly,what you were discussing at Monastiraki(very close to Syntagma square) for 20 minutes with the riot cops,before you start throwing stones?

[Искра]

This threat makes no sense anymore.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

This threat makes no sense anymore.
Of course, you cannot now think any lies to justify the killing attacks of the anarcho-vandals.Oh,and you stated that Stalinists say whoever is not with us is a fascist, you are so wrong.Whoever attacks us for no reason is a fascist.If the anarchists just demonstrate as peacefully as the "I won't pay" movement,we would have no problem at all.

[Delenda Carthago]

Wait a minute, why the hell I am a smart ass now?? These are honest questions, and I think that they could expand on the overall context of this conflict, clearing things up. They aren't meant as baiting or anything. What the fuck man?
You are a smart ass, because these all things are irrelevant to the incident. These are all things that should be asked before or at least after. What if KKE was a reformist party that managed to gather the same number of people? Who gives a pack of wild dogs the right to attack them under the name of what revolution? Is this the way to create an anarchist movement? By ruthlesly attack everyone that disagrees? Do you realise that anarchists are completly isolated right now? When you see ANTARSYA and SYRIZA, that are in an inormous feud with KKE(KKE calls them ANTAR-CIA) to side with it, what does this tell you? We are not judging the politics of KKE here, we are judging if they have the right to defend themshelves. Its just that people here are looking at the situation in Greece(and other countries that are far far away from them)as they look at a soccer match. Thats why they get hooliganistic even to someone that is not a PAME member but stood against the attack against them. To them is spectacle and entertainment, to me is real life. They learned about it from youtube and emails, I had rocks swinging around me and felt the wave of the dynamite explosion on my chest. So fuck yeah I dont take shit from people here.


From my knowledge, Papariga is an MP of KKE in the Parliament, right?
What do you, personally, make of this? Do you think it was possible to "exert pressure" in such a scale that these laws wouldn't pass? I again stress that I'm not an expert on the concrete determinations of class struggle in Greece, I'm not posing as an expert or a theoretical genius or whatever, but I have to say this: everybody should be clear that "pressure", in the form of general strike and demonstration witnessed in Greece, will not, can not, have any impact upon the parasites voting on the bill in parliament. In other words, I don't think it's honest to claim that these actions have a chance to stop the laws being pushed through.

As far as what you state about the expected outcome (that second part of it), sure, I can see why people would think such actions could escalate class struggle. Indeed, it might be the case, no argument here.

But something seems strange here: if class struggle were to escalate, then people could expect that to be the consequence of the enforced new laws, of the laws being passed, which again takes us to the first point, that the goal of the strike+demo of stopping the laws is altogether illusory. Do you agree that for class struggle to escalate these new laws must be passed?



This makes no sence. The goverment is for a year and a half constantly attacking the working and petit bourgeois class. They have cuted the wages to the half, they hav destroyed the social state, they have imposed a semi-dictatorship, they have given the keys of the country to the local and international ruling elite. The working class movement is fighting to stand on its feet, after some decades of PASOK domination in the unions. How you gonna have a revolution if you dont have the proper tools to do it? People here are in the fantasy world where a riot of a couple of thousands can make a change. Even if the majority of the people are against it. Because thats what matters to them. To live the fuzz. How you expect a party that last got voted with 7.5% to claim the power?Are we talking serious here? How do you expect to have a revolution when GSEE and ADEDY are still under PASOK's occupation? Yes, there is a heat that rises constantly, but if this dont transform first to something solid, unions, organisations, neibourhood assemblies, you have nothing but a wild crowd that can easily go from communist to fascist and vice versa due to lack of consioussness.


What I meant is this: the plan was to encirle the parliament... and then what? That's what I meant - if there were actions planned after the bills go through. Which also brings up the question of this conflict - did this violence undermine any such plan?
And yes, I do understand what do you mean by clipped wings and a common factor, but I'm interested in concrete practical actions which were possible after the bill was passed. But I'm aware that your knowledge on this is limited since you're not a member of PAME/KKE. That's why I think FSL's input would be useful alongside yours.

And then go back to unions that are held by PASOK and convince people that there is a hope in struggle, convince them to organise to their union, to keep a class oriented stance etc. That is unfortunatly, for everyone besides the majority of anarchists, which, with very few exeptions, they are nowhere to be found in the working places. For what the stragedy of KKE is, as you said, ask FSL.


Well, I guess that escalating class struggle and building the movement is one and the same thing.
Though, it's interesting to note that PASOK's minister of labour voted against the laws, and that the party announced that she will be expelled.

I know, Louka Katseli. One of the "hardliners" of PASOK, yet she quited. If she chosed to get individual instead of quiting, she would overthrow the goverment.


So, according to your opinion, for the last 1 and a half year, KKE have been emphasizing that the only way out of this mess for Greek workers' is a workers' revolution.
But I was getting at this: in the documents I read, there was only the pretty much vague call for workers' power - no coherent program, no answer to the question of the necessity of the spreadout of revolution, and yes, at least a European revolution, and finally a global one?

I'm asking this, I'm stating this because there is one thing that troubles me - the fact that the workers' revolution must spread as quickly as possible, and then we have KKE which doesn't address these issues which brings for the question - for what kind of "people's power" do they act?? Alongside this, they do call for the cancellation of debt - which can be acheived within the bourgeois system.

I hope this is clear. These are assumptions and doubts, not dishonest attacks. And it may very well be that I lack some information. So don't take this to be some kind of a definitive position of mine. And please, if you know of materials, post links.


Thats not my opinion. Thats common ground for everyone. All the Left is critising KKE for one thing: that their answer to everything is "the solution is at People's Power" and that they dont invest in everyday struggle anymore.

As far as the program to the revolution goes, I m dont remember what exactly KKE has to propose but I know that there is somewhere in the conclusions of the 18th Congress in 2009.
As far as I know, I think their internationalist practise is with WTFU. But I m not sure if they have anything else.


Sorry, but that doesn't really answer my question. I'm asking for the positions with regard to the very possibility of workers' revolution, especially in its' international dimension, and the way in which it's concrete forms are proposed.

Again KKE is probably on the 18th Congress, ANTARSYA on their final congress too. Anarchists dont have any other than riot to hell freezes.These are all I know.

http://inter.kke.gr/Documents/18cong

[Delenda Carthago]

Oh and all you "revolutionaries" tell me honestly,what you were discussing at Monastiraki(very close to Syntagma square) for 20 minutes with the riot cops,before you start throwing stones?
This is foul too. The fact that undercover cops are inflitrating riots dont mean that everyone that riots is a cop.

[black magick hustla]

honestly the line that "you were not there" is tiresome. all the greek posters here are from the KKE wingnut brigade, and a token "anarchist". of course fucking KKE militants and their supporters are going to defend a KKE action, no matter if they are greek. There aren't greek insurrectos in this forum.

Anyway, I don't see why people act surprised. KKE has a prescence in parliament, and is in general terms, an ordinary, bourgeois social democratic party. Same as all the official CPs really. KKE is just the darling of the international stalinist moonbat community or whatever because they have "anti revisionist" rhetoric.

[Искра]

Of course, you cannot now think any lies to justify the killing attacks of the anarcho-vandals.Oh,and you stated that Stalinists say whoever is not with us is a fascist, you are so wrong.Whoever attacks us for no reason is a fascist.If the anarchists just demonstrate as peacefully as the "I won't pay" movement,we would have no problem at all.

Kid, you have big mouth (fast fingers) but an empty head. If that wasn’t a case you would be able to discuss with arguments and not with this hysterical emotional bollocks. I’m not you mother and I don’t really have to listen to that. You didn’t want to discuss anything in the first place, since you came here with one intention – to justify KKE at all costs. Most of your posts are pure trolling without anything useful to bring to discussion. Typical cyber warriors trolling which tends to, as I said before, defend some imaginary tendency at all costs, even when physical evidences provided enough information for a decent criticism. Of course, criticism is not something you can take or use to develop your organisation, firstly because you “participate” in that movement as much as we do – from Internet, and secondly because it was easier for you, and your little pals here, to adopt childish Stalinist rhetoric where all criticism is considered something that comes from enemy, enemy who want to destroy you, so you have to be quick with insults in order to justify how your position is flawless.

If you were able to read and to understand what people write, you could conclude that most of anti-KKE posters here have a common position which is not justifying anarchist throwing molotovs on PAME, because that was quite stupid. Anyhow, people here repeated at least 100 times why should PAME let people go through their lines, why they do not have a right to monopolise movement etc. You kiddies were just coming with some childless excuses which can be sum up in one phrase: might make right. Since, that is basically your only argument (if we exclude you were not there argument, cause I believe that only AttackGr was there) and only thing you are saying in more than 500 posts. So, tell me what new conclusions, information, views, thoughts etc. this discussion brings? None. You’ll continue with your vandals, hooligans and anacho-trot conspiracies and theories.

Like the real world is important when you have tendency. Meanwhile, Greek state and international capital scores; they manage to vote their new measures, they manage to divide movement with PAME/KKE help... they manage to make people feel, not just even more desperate, but also resigned. Yes, I’m making speculations based on similar events in history and how did people reacted on them. Also, Greek struggle had its international connotations since it represented an inspiration to us abroad. To me this is also one big disappointment, even though I can’t tell that I didn’t know how reactionary KKE is - or parliamentary parties in general.

So, yeah go back to your Stalinist hole where everyone else is a fascist. Probably you call a women in your local store fascist cause she don’t wanna sell you beer cause you are too young.

This criticism of mine has nothing to do with AttackGr since he was able to put decent discussion for the most of the time (even he fucked up a little, but ok we all fucked up few posts since there’s always emotional part involved in such discussions).

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Kid, you have big mouth (fast fingers) but an empty head. If that wasn’t a case you would be able to discuss with arguments and not with this hysterical emotional bollocks. I’m not you mother and I don’t really have to listen to that. You didn’t want to discuss anything in the first place, since you came here with one intention – to justify KKE at all costs. Most of your posts are pure trolling without anything useful to bring to discussion. Typical cyber warriors trolling which tends to, as I said before, defend some imaginary tendency at all costs, even when physical evidences provided enough information for a decent criticism. Of course, criticism is not something you can take or use to develop your organisation, firstly because you “participate” in that movement as much as we do – from Internet, and secondly because it was easier for you, and your little pals here, to adopt childish Stalinist rhetoric where all criticism is considered something that comes from enemy, enemy who want to destroy you, so you have to be quick with insults in order to justify how your position is flawless.

If you were able to read and to understand what people write, you could conclude that most of anti-KKE posters here have a common position which is not justifying anarchist throwing molotovs on PAME, because that was quite stupid. Anyhow, people here repeated at least 100 times why should PAME let people go through their lines, why they do not have a right to monopolise movement etc. You kiddies were just coming with some childless excuses which can be sum up in one phrase: might make right. Since, that is basically your only argument (if we exclude you were not there argument, cause I believe that only AttackGr was there) and only thing you are saying in more than 500 posts. So, tell me what new conclusions, information, views, thoughts etc. this discussion brings? None. You’ll continue with your vandals, hooligans and anacho-trot conspiracies and theories.

Like the real world is important when you have tendency. Meanwhile, Greek state and international capital scores; they manage to vote their new measures, they manage to divide movement with PAME/KKE help... they manage to make people feel, not just even more desperate, but also resigned. Yes, I’m making speculations based on similar events in history and how did people reacted on them. Also, Greek struggle had its international connotations since it represented an inspiration to us abroad. To me this is also one big disappointment, even though I can’t tell that I didn’t know how reactionary KKE is - or parliamentary parties in general.

So, yeah go back to your Stalinist hole where everyone else is a fascist. Probably you call a women in your local store fascist cause she don’t wanna sell you beer cause you are too young.

This criticism of mine has nothing to do with AttackGr since he was able to put decent discussion for the most of the time (even he fucked up a little, but ok we all fucked up few posts since there’s always emotional part involved in such discussions).
So,you think posting some photo footage is pure trolling?Then what can I say..yes you are the most HQ poster Kontrrazvedka.And man,are you crazy?What is this bullshit about beer and shit?And arguements like "kid" are not showing the appropriate maturity for discussion.Also keep dreaming that your anarchist heroes will storm the parliament..

[Dimmu]

Was busy for the last couple of days so i did not hear about this issue till now.. And i am shocked...

I mean i knew that stalinists and other "communist" parties like to act like a vanguard all the time. But holyshit.. Its one thing to wave a banner and claim that we are in charge, but to physically block the protesters from marching to the parliament? The fk is going on?

[Искра]

Sugar Pops, I'm not an anarchist :)

[Kornilios Sunshine]

This is foul too. The fact that undercover cops are inflitrating riots dont mean that everyone that riots is a cop.
No, no didn't say that.But,there were also a few cops which were rioting undercover.

[Искра]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/317662_10150347584238192_734073191_7999773_1741835 480_n.jpg

[Delenda Carthago]

M-L KKE(not to be confused with KKE (m-l) )



(...)

Παρά τις εκτεταμένες επιχειρήσεις των δυνάμεων καταστολής και την αξιοποίηση από αυτές της προβοκατόρικης δράσης των κουκουλοφόρων θιασωτών της τυφλής βίας, παρά την κλιμάκωση της τρομοκρατίας εναντίον του λαού, που είχε σαν οδυνηρή συνέπεια το θάνατο εργάτη συνδικαλιστή του ΠΑΜΕ στις διαδηλώσεις της 20ής Oκτώβρη όπως και τους τραυματισμούς δεκάδων και εκατοντάδων διαδηλωτών, παρά τις απαγορεύσεις απεργιών και την επιστράτευση με φασιστικούς νόμους απεργών, οι αγώνες του λαού συνεχίζονται και μπορούν και πρέπει να ξεδιπλωθούν ακόμα πιο πλατιά μπροστά σε νέες αντεργατικές - αντικοινωνικές θύελλες που επέρχονται στους προσεχείς «κολασμένους» καιρούς της χρεοκοπίας και της διάλυσης που οδηγεί το λαό και τη χώρα η ντόπια ολιγαρχία, οι κυβερνήσεις της και τα ξένα αφεντικά τους.

(...)


Despite extensive operations of the forces of repression and exploitation by those in the provocative action of masked supporters of indiscriminate violence, despite the escalation of terrorism against the people who had the painful resulting in the death of PAME trade union demonstrations on 20 October as the injuries of tens and hundreds of demonstrators, despite bans strikes and conscription with fascist laws strikers, the struggles of people going and can and should unfold even wider front in new anti-worker - antisocial storms occurring in the next 'sinners' time of bankruptcy and dissolution of leading the people and the country the local oligarchy, governments and foreign masters.

[Искра]

Can you post a link to a whole statemant?

Btw. what's difference between ML KKE and KKE m-l...

[Delenda Carthago]

Can you post a link to a whole statemant?

Btw. what's difference between ML KKE and KKE m-l...
http://tsak-giorgis.blogspot.com/2011/10/m-kke-e.html

They were one, in the original KKE (m-l) but when Mao died, the fract that now is M-L KKE continued to support China while KKE (m-l) supported the Gang of Four. Stupid excuse to still be divided, but M-L KKE is not anywhere anyway so it dont matter...

[RedSide]

What all of you KKE critics fail to understand is that anarchists by attacking the cops and breaking the demonstration wanted to monopolize it as much as PAME. That's what is happening for years. During every demonstration this is the drill. Pame is standing in front of the parliament for some time, then GSEE is next and then it's time for the black block boys and girls to start playing with the cops. Face it. Anarchists are useful fools (and some of them provocateurs) that help every greek decide that its better to stay home because its safer. So what all of you are saying is that PAME, that was responsible for the safety of the demonstrators, had to suck it up and leave cause the anarchists wanted to have their usual fight, or just stay there after letting anarchists pass and risk the people's safety. How retarded is this? Seriously!!

What is worst? Some thousands of demonstrators not wanting to have their demo destroyed by 500 kids, or 500 kids DEMANDING some thousands of demonstrators to step aside so they can have fun and risk the lives of thousands?? Demonstrators from syriza or other leftist parties where angry with KKE because they lost the best spot but that's the way things work in Greece, you like it or not. With your logic I wonder what would have happened during summer if PAME had acted like the anarchists, when some synaspismos boys with banners etc stopped pame demo and told them to lower their banners in order to let them pass.

Unfortunately KKE is always in a damned if you do damned if you don't position. This time they decided to stay and the result was to have anarchists and golden dawn call them protectors of the state. Go figure...:rolleyes:

[4 Leaf Clover]

This is getting really tiring. No substance here, only "but the OTHER side also knew that".

Dude that was your statement. No one prevented them from charging parliament with wooden clubs. I didnt notice any anarchists besieging parliament and stopping the laws by almighty force of wooden clubs :laugh:


Post no. 154 in this thread, big mouth liar, where you first attempted to answer the points raised, so go see if that's true what you're telling me. What the fuck. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2270688&postcount=154Whats your point ? What did i lie about ?


After reading this thread I lost my last hope in mankind. Well, to be honest I’m not, but it’s theatrical start (and I like it).

Here are few things I have to say:

1) It’s fucking brilliant how people who identify themselves with ML tendency are all defending KKE, party which their fellow ML’s consider REVISIONIST and REACTIONARY

Yes , few marginal hoxaist parties and similar tendencies. Those are always "the" crowd.


Even ML’s, with all their shit, are against bourgeoisies state and its police, army etcIf you read discussion , you would notice that it had nothing to do with state or police.


There’s no way to claim that one person or organisation is revolutionary if it’s backed up with police. If it’s against working class. Reading this thread I can only laugh to stupid excuses and childish posts by some horny teenagers (of course I don’t consider all pro-KKE posters as such since there was some kind of a serious discussion here... but now it’s all gone to hell).Of course , backed by police argument is what you called "childish posts by some horny teenagers" . We already concluded that it has nothing to do with reality of anti-austerity protests


I would like to commend the most idiotic argument I have ever read and that is: you were not there.This argument was equally exploited


Also one question to ML’s: Imagine that anarchists were in PAME position and PAME in anarchist. All of you would call anarchists police dogs and claim that this is because of their bourgeoisie ideology. I know you would, cause you are all so predictable...There is so big reason , why such scenario is impossible. Because there is no way that party so large and so organized as KKE can be threatened by bunch of brick throwers.