The PKK

[Susurrus]

or the Kurdistan Workers' Party. Don't know much about it, are they worthy of support? Wikipedia described them as more nationalist than leftist, and that they promise to support the families of their fighters to get them to join, then never follow through at all. More info please.

[OHumanista]

I would be glad to hear more about it too. I don't like judging a group or event without some decent knowledge about it.

[Belleraphone]

Don't know much about it, but you can pretty much expect most Kurdish parties to be nationalist because most Kurds do want a nation of Kurdistan to be established since they've been persecuted for so long, same thing with the Jews only hopefully Kurdistan won't be as brutal as Israel.

[RedSonRising]

From what I understand, they are a kind of separatist Nationalist Liberation group with socialist leanings, and have committed themselves to a kind of armed struggle against the Turkish state. Turkey has a spotted human rights records concerning freedom of speech and cultural rights for those who wish to express their interests as a community. Many desire a Kurdish state, though the Kurdish community seems split on their support. I've read many incidents of violence between the State and the rebels which leave civilians injured or dead, and so I personally recommend they adopt a different strategy and remain militant but less violent, instead of alienating themselves and narrowing down their program to one path of active resistance.

I'm no expert though, that's just from what I've read and the Turks I've talked to about it.

[tir1944]

Yes,they should be supported.
They're a leftwing National-Liberation movement.

[His Dudeness]

I come from Turkey and all I can say is that they are a Nationalist movement who dropped Socialism as there ideology more than 15 years ago (they even removed the hammer & sickel from their flags). Still, the Kurdish people deserve their own country so I support them in their war against the fascist Turkish government.

On the other hand, a week ago I was at a concert of a revolutionairy protest group named 'Grup Yorum' and a group of PKK supporters came there and tried to provocate the Marxist-Leninists at the concert, which resulted in a fight between them. This wasn't the only timethey did this and a couple of years ago they even threw molotovs at some marxist-leninists. Some of them even say that Socialism is bullshit and that they made a huge mistake being a Socialist.

Even though that they're Nationalist and even attack and sometimes even kill leftist people, the Kurdish people have the right to fight for their own country.

Btw, sorry for my bad English

[Cencus]

In the U.K. they are a proscribed organisation - meaning membership is a criminal offence, essentially they are named as a terrorist organisation by the state.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Don't know much about the organization itself but it seems like they are pretty active - I read that they started a major offensive today and they assaulted a military base and killed something like 25 soldiers

[His Dudeness]

The Turkish army has started a big operation in south-east Turkey and North Iraq against the PKK. We can expect dozens of deaths by the Turkish army.

[Devrim]

The Turkish army has started a big operation in south-east Turkey and North Iraq against the PKK. We can expect dozens of deaths by the Turkish army.

There are nationalist demonstrations everywhere just like last time. I posted up a few notes I made on the last war (http://www.revleft.com/vb/notes-last-war-t163110/index.html?p=2271087), just in case they interested anybody.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Even though that they're Nationalist and even attack and sometimes even kill leftist people,

I suppose it comes down to your view of national liberation movements. If you support them, things like shooting teachers in villages for teaching Turkish, and murdering leftist militants are 'excesses'.

If you think national liberation divides the working class and that most national liberation movements end up as proxies for various local or regional powers, then their shooting workers is merely further proof of their anti-working class nature.


Still, the Kurdish people deserve their own country so I support them in their war against the fascist Turkish government.


The Turkish state isn't 'fascist'. That is just an absurd thing to say. It is a horrific, barbaric, nationalist state, but not fascist.

Devrim

[His Dudeness]

The Turkish state isn't 'fascist'. That is just an absurd thing to say. It is a horrific, barbaric, nationalist state, but not fascist.

Devrim
Can you please explain me why it's not fascist then?

[intowin]

ANKARA, Oct. 22 (Xinhua) -- Thirty two rebels of the banned Kurdish Workers' Party (PKK) were killed in a large-scale operation in Cuukurca town of Hakkari province in southeastern Turkey late Friday and early Saturday, private Dogan news agency reported on Saturday.
The Turkish army continuously dispatched troops by helicopters to fight with PKK militants in the region of Kazan Valley and Isikli in Cuukurca town of Hakkari province, according to the report.
However, no official statement on the armed clashes between the Turkish soldiers and PKK members was available.
On Wednesday, a large group of the PKK members attacked several military and police buildings and killed 24 soldiers and police officers in several locations in the predominately Kurdish Hakkari province near the Iraqi border, a day after they killed five police officers and three civilians in Bitlis province in southeastern Turkey.
Listed as a terrorist organization by Turkey, the United States and the European Union, the PKK took up arms in 1984 to create an ethnic homeland in southeastern Turkey. More than 40,000 people have been killed in conflicts involving the PKK during the past over two decades.

[Devrim]

Can you please explain me why it's not fascist then?

Why do you think it is fascist? What charecterises it as fascist?

Devrim

[Susurrus]

Yeah, the recent clashes were what got me interested.

[Alaz]

PKK was established in 1978 as a Marxist-Leninist (one might even say Maoist) organization, started its armed struggle in 1984.

After the military coup in 1980(12th of September), the class struggle and the revolutionary movement were defeated in large-scale. Tens of thousands of people were imprisoned and thousands were killed. The rest were hiding, or already on the road to Europe. Positions were abandoned and even the enemy was surprised how the revolutionary movement collapsed into ashes that fast. Few kept on fighting.

In 1984, PKK attacked two military units. It was out in the open. This was a declaration of war. In the following years escalating attacks were made to military units.

By the early '90s PKK gathered a great sympathy within the Kurdish people, and a striking military power.

In '99, Abdullah Öcalan, the one man leadership were captured by Turkish intelligence. After Öcalan was captured, the national movement took a great shock and wasn't able to sustain its military action.

By 2002, PKK started gathering its power and support once again. The mountains were embellished with guerilla songs and Kurdish cities were giving birth to new uprisings.

From 2002, to this day, PKK gathered more and more guerillas, attacked more and more military units and headquarters and with the help of its democratic and legal organization it gained a hell lot of legitimacy throughout the world and the Kurdish nation.

Few days ago, they attacked 7 military headquarters and police offices at the same time. According to PKK, 87 soldiers were killed. The press claimed it was 24.

After that night, fascist attacks on Kurdish people bursted in a wink. Still goes on.

BTW, in the past 27 years the ideological stance of PKK was also changed. I personally do not consider them as a ML movement, but still I believe PKK is a progressive national liberation movement containing revolutionary elements.

[Alaz]

Don't know much about it, but you can pretty much expect most Kurdish parties to be nationalist because most Kurds do want a nation of Kurdistan to be established since they've been persecuted for so long, same thing with the Jews only hopefully Kurdistan won't be as brutal as Israel.

It's not a nationalist organizations, nor affiliated with imperialist countries.

I call them armed reformist national liberation movement. It differs accordingly to your theorotical position on national liberation issue.

Some other tendencies consider them as a revolutionary movement, but it's a fact that PKK is not a homogeneous organizations. It contains some both progressive and reactionary elements within. One may even say anarchist leanings are visible throughout their practises such as establishing communes in some districts.

[Alaz]

The Turkish state isn't 'fascist'. That is just an absurd thing to say. It is a horrific, barbaric, nationalist state, but not fascist.

Devrim

This also depends on where you stand, what is your theoratical basis and what is your general analysis my friend.

I, for myself, call the Turkish state fascist without any quotation marks. And you'd probably know better than me that, there are many "existing", "active" and "fighting" "organizations", "parties", "fronts" and "movements" call the state fascist. In your case, this should be the -not absurd- but the appropiate use of quotation marks.

[Obs]

This also depends on where you stand, what is your theoratical basis and what is your general analysis my friend.

I, for myself, call the Turkish state fascist without any quotation marks. And you'd probably know better than me that, there are many "existing", "active" and "fighting" "organizations", "parties", "fronts" and "movements" call the state fascist. In your case, this should be the -not absurd- but the appropiate use of quotation marks.

Dude


Why do you think it is fascist? What charecterises it as fascist?

Devrim

[Alaz]

Rather than labeling the state as fascist or not, my implication was on his attitude concerning revolutionary movements fighting against something which they call as fascism and dying hundreds in a row for that cause, and claiming that Turkey is a fascist state as if he heard it for the first time in his life.

I do not want this turning into a personal and an apolitical polemic between him and me but I just gotta say that this is the common attitude of "book club revolutionaries" towards the ones who have been fighting.

I'll answer "Why do you think it is fascist? What charecterises it as fascist?" this question when I get the time.

[Devrim]

I, for myself, call the Turkish state fascist without any quotation marks. And you'd probably know better than me that, there are many "existing", "active" and "fighting" "organizations", "parties", "fronts" and "movements" call the state fascist. In your case, this should be the -not absurd- but the appropiate use of quotation marks.


Rather than labeling the state as fascist or not, my implication was on his attitude concerning revolutionary movements fighting against something which they call as fascism and dying hundreds in a row for that cause, and claiming that Turkey is a fascist state as if he heard it for the first time in his life.

Of course I have heard various Turkish groups label the sate, the AKP, the CHP, and just about everybody fascist before. That doesn't make it any more correct nor does it make it any less absurd.

'Fascist' has become just another meaningless word to throw around. Where are the defining elements of fascism, things such as corporatism, and the direct incorporation of all labour organisations into the state? In what way is the state fascist?


my implication was on his attitude concerning revolutionary movements fighting against something which they call as fascism and dying hundreds in a row for that cause

The fact that people die doesn't make them politically correct. My attitude towards these so-called 'revolutionary movements' is that they are not particularly revolutionary at all. I don't think the para-military activities of groups like DevSol have anything to do with the struggle of the working class, and fail to see how people shooting a few soldiers in the mountains takes the class forward.


this is the common attitude of "book club revolutionaries" towards the ones who have been fighting

Fighting for what though? Despite, not knowing me you are right though. I don't use a gun in my political activity. I have over the last three decades been involved in various strikes and working class struggles including being on strike myself over a dozen times, ranging from small strike of a few hours in a small private company to a three and a half week long strike of nearly 200,000 workers. Does that make me a "book club revolutionary"?

The ironic thing though is that I would presume you are not an armed militant yourself seeing as you are posting about it on the internet. Either that or DevSol have absolutely no sense of security these days, which I think is unlikely, and makes your cheap jibes at somebody who you have no idea about whatsoever slightly amusing.

Devrim