Ghaddafi dead? Captured?

[ComradeMan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44971257/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/#.TqAR0LJ2PMA

It's all unconfirmed.

If true--- what next?

[Die Rote Fahne]

The same shit when they caught Saddam. A "trial" and an execution if he is alive and a puppet state soon to follow...unless he skips the whole trial thing by being dead already.

I give this amount of fuck |--| about Gaddaffi.

[DarkPast]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44971257/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/#.TqAR0LJ2PMA

It's all unconfirmed.

Yeah, there have been several false reports that some of his sons have been killed, so let's wait for some sort of confirmation before we declare him dead.


If true--- what next?The king is dead. Long live the king?

Seriously though, it should be obvious the next leader/government will be one that serves the western oil lobby. Perhaps there's going to be a guerrilla movement against the new government - we'll see.

[Nox]

What next?

Install puppet government, get oil deals, happy days.

[GatesofLenin]

What next?

Install puppet government, get oil deals, happy days.

Here comes Haliburton. :mad:

[Bud Struggle]

The great International Brigades of NATO have helped the people of Lybia throw off oppression and gain everlasting freedom and justice.

[danyboy27]

The great International Brigades of NATO have helped the people of Lybia throw off oppression and gain everlasting freedom and justice.

we will soon see if that the case or not.

[RedGrunt]

The great International Brigades of NATO have helped the people of Lybia throw off oppression and gain everlasting freedom and justice.

Woot woot.
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/25092_1304878394303_1600816973_732692_7992035_s.jp g

[Smyg]

I'm currently feeling the same kind of thing as I do when I think about the Soviet union. Gaddafi was bad, but damn, he sure had style. :D

[Die Rote Fahne]

Al Arabiya has photos and footage of his corpse.

[pastradamus]

BBC are now saying he was hiding in a sewer (it was a pipe earlier in the day)... they have absolutely no evidence of this, no photos, no accounts and no credible reports. Its really sickening when they just try to draw a parrallel with Saddam Hussein without proof.

Im really fucking sick of these bullshit reports. Just tell us what happened and leave your opinion at home.

Another thing is that they continually praise the NTC as "Hero's". These guys are going around the streets of every major city in Libya carrying out revenge killings. They are an unorganised mob more than a national government and I would be very untrusting of such an organisation.

[pastradamus]

The great International Brigades of NATO have helped the people of Lybia throw off oppression and gain everlasting freedom and justice.

NATO, as usual did nothing. They just bombed the fuck out of everything - including the Rebels.

It was the libyan people who overthrew Gaddafi, just as it was the Yugoslav people who overthrew Milosevic.

[#FF0000]

NATO, as usual did nothing. They just bombed the fuck out of everything - including the Rebels.

It was the libyan people who overthrew Gaddafi, just as it was the Yugoslav people who overthrew Milosevic.

I wouldn't be so sure of this. I remember seeing pictures of some suspiciously british looking Libyan Rebels.

[Smyg]

The British, and the French I believe, put in their special forces once - in my opinion - Gaddafi had no real hope of victory.

[Commissar Rykov]

Rumor is he is dead some video just popped on the news with some dude blown to pieces who they are claiming is Gaddafi.

[Smyg]

I wouldn't quite blown to pieces.. severly assaulted and then executed would be a better way to put it, judging from the released photos I've seen.

[Commissar Rykov]

I wouldn't quite blown to pieces.. severly assaulted and then executed would be a better way to put it, judging from the released photos I've seen.
Yeah it was a bit of hyperbole still it is hard to tell what the person used to look like with how shot up the person was.

[Zealot]

I was reading an old thread from 2003 when Sadam Hussein was captured, redstar2000 had this to say:

The western media has generally suggested that the Iraqi resistance is made up of "Saddam loyalists" and "Islamic fundamentalists". If this is true, then resistance activity should decline substantially in coming months. We'll see if this actually happens.

In any event, however much fuss the media makes, it's not really an "earth-shaking" event.

We should really be thinking about the next war.

Because there'll be one. Count on it!

I think these words will ring true in the coming months in an (un)surprising event of deja vu...we will see.

[JFB.anon]

The U.S government will install a government that just so happens to be a neoliberal, anti-worker, pseudo democracy. Did anyone suspect otherwise?:glare:

EDIT:
HOLY SHIT HE IS ACTUALLY DEAD (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2011/oct/20/syria-libya-middle-east-unrest-live) I'M ALL OF A SUDDEN NOT PESSIMISTIC!!!!111

[Kornilios Sunshine]

He is actually dead I think.
Warning : Gross Content
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/oct2011/3/9/colonel-gaddafi-pic-afp-philippe-desmazes-706376664.jpg

[Kornilios Sunshine]

He is actually dead I think.
Warning : Gross Content
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/oct2011/3/9/colonel-gaddafi-pic-afp-philippe-desmazes-706376664.jpg

[Bud Struggle]

NATO, as usual did nothing. They just bombed the fuck out of everything - including the Rebels.

It was the libyan people who overthrew Gaddafi, just as it was the Yugoslav people who overthrew Milosevic.

There definitely were NATO boots on the ground in Lybia.

[Lunatic Concept]

Well here it is
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=176588135759116

[Iron Felix]

When they were toppling Saddam's statue, they had to pay Iraqis dollars to do it. This is a bit of an improvement.

[ComradeMan]

I just hope that now the "common" enemy is gone... the next thing DOESN'T happen... i.e. faction fighting... Those people have been through enough already.

[pastradamus]

There definitely were NATO boots on the ground in Lybia.

So what? A couple of NATO troops did not beat Gadaffi, again it was the Libyan people who did this.

What contribution NATO did make was the the air support it gave. If you recall earlier on in the conflict when it established a "no-fly" zone over Libya. I suppose this was a big contribution early on in the conflict but this NATO contribution is only there to attempt to enforce a future Neo-liberal mandate where the western powers would call the shots.

Its also quite fitting that the Western-Approved leader of the Provisional Government is a hard-core liberalist and advocated privatisation of Libyan resorces when he served as head of Libya's National Economic Development Board under the Gadaffi regime. He ticks all the boxes that Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama want him to tick.

[Bud Struggle]

So what? A couple of NATO troops did not beat Gadaffi, again it was the Libyan people who did this.

What contribution NATO did make was the the air support it gave. If you recall earlier on in the conflict when it established a "no-fly" zone over Libya. I suppose this was a big contribution early on in the conflict but this NATO contribution is only there to attempt to enforce a future Neo-liberal mandate where the western powers would call the shots.

Its also quite fitting that the Western-Approved leader of the Provisional Government is a hard-core liberalist and advocated privatisation of Libyan resorces when he served as head of Libya's National Economic Development Board under the Gadaffi regime. He ticks all the boxes that Cameron, Sarkozy and Obama want him to tick.


Well the Libyans seem to be grateful. Annd further, the Libyans wouldn't have won if the International Brigades didn't help with their air power--and they know this.

This is a big win for NATO.

[aristos]

Well the Libyans we get to see on TV seem to be grateful.

Corrected for you.

[Drosophila]

On Al-Jazeera they said that Gaddafi set Libya many years back, according to his opponents. However I don't think that Libya under the rebels will be any better.

[Hiero]

On Al-Jazeera they said that Gaddafi set Libya many years back, according to his opponents. However I don't think that Libya under the rebels will be any better.

Set back from what? Libya was one of the most developed and advanced nations in Africa. Look at this link of the Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Afric a). The civil war in Libya has set Libya backwards.

It is interesting how the media was portrayed the civil war. There has been very little scrutiny of the NTC. And generall the civil war is portrayed as bloodless. Compare the media coveraged of Gaddafi's assault on Benghazi and the NTC's assault on Sirte.

[RGacky3]

It might be just me, but there is something sick in American culture that celebrates death, I'm no fan of Saddam, no fan of Ghaddafi, but showing their mangled bodies on TV, or showing an execution, its a little sick.

[Tablo]

It might be just me, but there is something sick in American culture that celebrates death, I'm no fan of Saddam, no fan of Ghaddafi, but showing their mangled bodies on TV, or showing an execution, its a little sick.
I completely agree. I watched the killing of him and it left me feeling ill.

[DarkPast]

It might be just me, but there is something sick in American culture that celebrates death, I'm no fan of Saddam, no fan of Ghaddafi, but showing their mangled bodies on TV, or showing an execution, its a little sick.

And that just makes me more suspicious about the Bin Laden's death. The American media showed Che dead, Saddam dead, Gaddafi dead - but Bin Laden, the only guy who directly attacked the US, is supposedly "buried at sea". Now, I have no doubt Bin Laden's dead, but who he really was and just when he died - who knows?

[Kenco Smooth]

And that just makes me more suspicious about the Bin Laden's death. The American media showed Che dead, Saddam dead, Gaddafi dead - but Bin Laden, the only guy who directly attacked the US, is supposedly "buried at sea". Now, I have no doubt Bin Laden's dead, but who he really was and just when he died - who knows?

Followers of Che, Saddam and Gaddafi don't revel in martyrdom. Also the Gadaffi and Saddam comparisons don't hold since the pictures/video were not released by the US but by the people directly responsible for the killings. Bin Laden was killed by US special forces, not an angry mob or what came to be shown as rather perverse state executioners. The US had no say in whether these images came out but they had complete control over the Bin Laden situation.

[Void]

He is not captured, I believe he is dead. Gaddafi died as a hero I would say, an honorable death, he did not flee. He did say he would not flee and he did what he said. He went to his hometown and joined the last defence there. He could have easily fled. Since many countries including Venezuella offered shelter for him. I doubt he would be defeated without any help from NATO. Even his dead was achieved by NATO bombardment. True facts about his final moments may never be known, how he was exactly killed or what he was doing.. The guy had balls and I would say he could have even fired his gun to the so called rebels.

They will now tell stories that he died in a concrete pipe or something. Obviously they are trying to humiliate him. Stupid Libyans(those who rebelled) they do not know what they have caused by removing him and helping to install religious-global market economist government. NATO of course has gained another base by this aid which was actually NATO's aim in this.

Only better government than Gaddafi would be a true socialist one. The current transition government is certainly a step back than Gaddafi's system. Libyans will miss Gaddafi, they dont know what they have caused.

[RedAnarchist]

The British tabloids are loving the pictures. Not surprisingly, the Sun is enjoying it immensely, as well as believing that vengeance is somehow a productive and justified reason to murder someone. The Daily Mail even have a story about how other infamous leaders met their grisly ends as well (both Ceausescu and Stalin are mentioned).

[Bud Struggle]

He is not captured, I believe he is dead. Gaddafi died as a hero I would say, an honorable death, he did not flee. He did say he would not flee and he did what he said. He went to his hometown and joined the last defence there. He could have easily fled. Since many countries including Venezuella offered shelter for him. I doubt he would be defeated without any help from NATO. Even his dead was achieved by NATO bombardment. True facts about his final moments may never be known, how he was exactly killed or what he was doing.. The guy had balls and I would say he could have even fired his gun to the so called rebels.

They will now tell stories that he died in a concrete pipe or something. Obviously they are trying to humiliate him. Stupid Libyans(those who rebelled) they do not know what they have caused by removing him and helping to install religious-global market economist government. NATO of course has gained another base by this aid which was actually NATO's aim in this.

Only better government than Gaddafi would be a true socialist one. The current transition government is certainly a step back than Gaddafi's system. Libyans will miss Gaddafi, they dont know what they have caused.

I just love you old style Commies. It's people like you that have been keeping Capitalism alive for years and years. :)

[Void]

I just love you old style Commies. It's people like you that have been keeping Capitalism alive for years and years. :)

But I don't like label givers. Just too much provoking. Being old style is better anything than post-modern rubbish and today's sarcastic/ cynic internet communication/forum culture in that matter if that is so I take the old style.

[RGacky3]

Being old style is better anything than post-modern rubbish and today's sarcastic/ cynic internet communication/forum culture in that matter if that is so I take the old style.

I think by old-style he means dudes that latch on to anything with a red flag.

the Modern Socialist movement, the new unions the new anti-capitalist parties, the new anti-capitalist movements are whats gonna lead the left now. Not dues in military garb with red stars.

[Void]

I think by old-style he means dudes that latch on to anything with a red flag.

the Modern Socialist movement, the new unions the new anti-capitalist parties, the new anti-capitalist movements are whats gonna lead the left now. Not dues in military garb with red stars.

I don't want to answer these here, the thread is about Gaddafi and the discussion is going somewhere else and is not needed here and the extraordinary discussion was between me and Bud Struggle but thanks for opinions.

[ClearlyChrist]

What Next? It Was Obvious From The Start, Oil For The Gluttonous US, And A Hell Of A Mess For The Rest Of The World To Clean Up.

[pastradamus]

And that just makes me more suspicious about the Bin Laden's death. The American media showed Che dead, Saddam dead, Gaddafi dead - but Bin Laden, the only guy who directly attacked the US, is supposedly "buried at sea". Now, I have no doubt Bin Laden's dead, but who he really was and just when he died - who knows?

I agree. Im not one for conspiracy theory's but I find it strange that the one guy whom you would think would be shown dead, isn't.

The one conclusion I can draw as a reason for not parading him on front of the worlds media is that it would upset the Bin Laden family (whom have huge personal fortunes invested in the US economy) and so they avoided that option.

[ComradeMan]

The death of the lion means the coming of jackals...

[B5C]

All that I am going to say about Gadaffi is that he was a dick to his own people. No ruler should ever treat his people like shit while he and his family are treated like kings. Yes, he may grew Libya with better living rates, jobs, and health.

Those are no excuses for what he has done to the local populous. I am glad he is removed from power, but I will not be proud or gloat his death.

[Who?]

He will be sorely missed. Libya is just another NATO colony now.

[B5C]

This is horrible. No body should be displayed like this. Just bury this man.

http://www.komonews.com/news/national/132354118.html

[aristos]

All that I am going to say about Gadaffi is that he was a dick to his own people. No ruler should ever treat his people like shit while he and his family are treated like kings.

How was he "a dick to his own people" - sources?
Plus: alternatives?

[B5C]

How was he "a dick to his own people" - sources?
Plus: alternatives?

The shooting of protesters during the start of the Libyan Arab Spring:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/world/africa/05nations.html?_r=1&ref=world
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/08/18/libya-10-protesters-apparently-executed/

Libyan Army attacks civilian targets:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/04/17/libya-indiscriminate-attacks-kill-civilians/

Ghaddafi oppressed the Berber peoples.

Ghaddafi government oppressed homosexuals:


Libya

Male/Male: Illegal
Female/Female: Illegal
Penal Code of 1953
23

Article 407: Sexual assault/rape
―(1) Any individual who has sexual intercourse with another person using violence, by means of threats or
through deception shall be punished with a term of imprisonment of a maximum of ten years.
(2) This punishment shall also be imposed on any individual who has had sexual intercourse with the consent
of a person who was not yet 14 years of age or with a person who did not resist on account of mental or
physical disability. If the victim was not yet 14 years of age or was over 14 years of age but had not yet
reached the age of 18, the maximum term of imprisonment shall be 15 years.
(3) If the offender is a relative of the victim, a guardian, a tutor or a custodian, or if the victim is his servant, or
if the victim has a special dependant relationship to the offender, a term of imprisonment of between five
and 15 years shall be imposed.
(4) If an individual has sexual intercourse with another person with their consent (outside marriage), the two
persons involved shall be punished with a term of imprisonment of five years at most.‖

Article 408: Lewd acts
―(1) Any individual who commits lewd acts with a person in accordance with one of the methods specified in
the preceding article shall be punished with a period of imprisonment of five years at most.
(2) This punishment shall also be imposed if the act has been committed in agreement with a person who
was not yet 14 years of age or with a person who did not resist on account of a mental or physical disability. If
the victim was between the ages of 14 and 18, the term of imprisonment shall be at least one year.
(3) If the offender belongs to one of the groups of offenders specified in paragraphs (2) and (3) of Article 407,
a term of imprisonment of at least seven years shall be imposed.
(4) If an individual commits a lewd act with another person with their agreement (outside marriage), both
parties shall be punished with a term of imprisonment.‖
http://old.ilga.org/Statehomophobia/ILGA_State_Sponsored_Homophobia_2010.pdf

Also he use of terrorism against innocent civilians does not help him at all.

[ComradeMan]

.....


I'm not denying that he was an oppressive ruler... but that law you quoted is from 1953 and he only came to power in 1969 so you can't say he put those laws in, maybe he didn't abolish them, but still....

[aristos]

The shooting of protesters during the start of the Libyan Arab Spring

Libyan Army attacks civilian targets:

Also he use of terrorism against innocent civilians does not help him at all.

Hm, lets see:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2011/jun/26/war-crimes-muammar-gaddafi

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/amnesty-questions-claim-that-gaddafi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TncgsS0FDWg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7KOIzIfi8E&feature=related

http://www.voltairenet.org/Lybia-Human-rights-impostors-used

http://www.timesofoman.com/viewcolumndetails.asp?.ratopic_nd=404

[aristos]

I'm not denying that he was an oppressive ruler...

He might have been an oppressive ruler, but under his rule Libyans did enjoy more economic equality than you have in Italy.

[ComradeMan]

He might have been an oppressive ruler, but under his rule Libyans did enjoy more economic equality than you have in Italy.

"Economic" equality....? Everyone equally worse off. Italy's GDP per capita is up to five times higher than Libya's. :rolleyes:

That's a pathetic argument anyway in that it leads to all kinds of conclusions, you may as well say that a lot of Africans were better off under colonial rule because healthcare improved and life-expectancy increased.

[aristos]

First of all GDP doesn't measure use-value production, so I don't know why you are dragging this in.

Secondly, yes Italy is wealthier as whole, because it has a stronger industry as well as closer association with other industrialised countries.
However, do you get free electricity in Italy? No? I thought so.
Libya was providing for the people living there quite well given their industrial capacity.

The fight for communism is not based on some abstract academic ideals, peoples lives have to improve, otherwise what's the point. Thus the argument of better living standards is not pathetic.

But then again, since you're a religious devotee it would figure that you believe in a sacred pre-ordained order and people knowing their place.

[ComradeMan]

But then again, since you're a religious devotee it would figure that you believe in a sacred pre-ordained order and people knowing their place.

So when you have finished with silly ad hominems.....

You are going to claim that life was so much better under Gheddaffi? Okay? How come they all rebelled against him given the chance?

I can't believe that some are acting so "butthurt" about this. Why, FFS, do people insist on viewing everything like a sports event in which you have to take sides and each one
whines about the unfairness of it all and how everyone else is a cheat?

[aristos]

You are going to claim that life was so much better under Gheddaffi? Okay? How come they all rebelled against him given the chance?


Who is "all"? Before NATO escalated the rebels had no chance.
Also what about the mass pro-Gaddafi rallies in Tripoli and even Benghazi?
What about those "all" defending Sirte to the very end?
or this: http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/17/bloody-spring/ ?

[ComradeMan]

Who is "all"? Before NATO escalated the rebels had no chance.
Also what about the mass pro-Gaddafi rallies in Tripoli and even Benghazi?
What about those "all" defending Sirte to the very end?
or this: http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/10/17/bloody-spring/ ?

Which came first? The rebels or NATO?

No rebels.... no NATO.... :rolleyes:

As for rallies, and I mean this in general, be very careful what you interpret about rallies that you see filmed. If you are stuck with 50 armed pro-this or pro-that guys standing around you, of course you cheer and wave the flag. This was told to me by a very, very old man who had been a student in Germany during the 1930s- he said, and I don't think he would jave lied, that there were often guys "off camera" holding placards with "cheer" or "applause" etc on them, and a few gestapo and SS behind them.... ;)

[aristos]

Or maybe:

no NATO... no rebels... ;)

[ComradeMan]

Or maybe:

no NATO... no rebels... ;)

Evidence and sources required for that.

It's possible, perhaps, but we were witnessing the so-called "Arab Spring", were we not? Do you blame NATO for Tunisia and Egypt too?

Sorry, but ask yourself this---- when was the last time there were free and fair elections in Libya?

[aristos]

We do know that NATO special operatives were in Libya almost right from the start.
But yes, there are no sources, only deduction from the way the "Arab Spring" (whta has actually sprung up?) unfolded and the way the media covered it right from the start (hint: every country was covered in a different manner. Another hint: the differences were the function of the said country's relationship to western capital). So sure, the origins remain in the dark.

As for Gaddafi and his regime - I never implied it was democratic, just that it gave the inhabitants a better life than they had previously as well as probably better than what they will have now.

For the record I do consider that Gaddafi handled the whole situation in a very dumb-assed way.

[ComradeMan]

We do know that NATO special operatives were in Libya almost right from the start.
It wouldn't surprise me, but the fact we know shows it's not much of a secret. Special ops operate everywhere, they could even operate here- that's the world we live in.

But yes, there are no sources, only deduction from the way the "Arab Spring" (whta has actually sprung up?) unfolded and the way the media covered it right from the start (hint: every country was covered in a different manner. Another hint: the differences were the function of the said country's relationship to western capital). So sure, the origins remain in the dark.
The media are the media- they sell stories at the end of the day. I defend the press and the right to a free press as a pillar of democracy, but that doesn't mean I don't take their stories with a grain of salt (a reason why I like to read lots of different newspapers online- to get a perspective).

As for Gaddafi and his regime - I never implied it was democratic, just that it gave the inhabitants a better life than they had previously as well as probably better than what they will have now..
A better life than they had previously, sure. But the trouble with "benevolent" dictators is that when it's time to go they usually don't want to and cease being benevolent. Whether Gheddaffi can be called "benevolent" is open to question. I think we should wait to see how this plays out.... my own opinion is not optimistic to be honest. At the end of the day Gheddaffi said he would go down fighting and it seems he got his wish... he who lives by the sword dies by the sword as they say.

For the record I do consider that Gaddafi handled the whole situation in a very dumb-assed way.

...

[B5C]

As for Gaddafi and his regime - I never implied it was democratic, just that it gave the inhabitants a better life than they had previously as well as probably better than what they will have now.


Should Libyans accept a dictatorship because it provided a little better life? Of course we got the censorship. Government funding of terrorism back in the 1980s. The leader and his sons get palaces with gold plated cars and weapons while the people live in small houses, small apartments, or mud brick homes with no electricity.

The people didn't like the idea that they live in poverty or a very small lifestyle while the leader and party officials live in better conditions. Also the people believed that they are not represented.

You do know what happens to dictators right? None of them really have a good track record while they live in better houses and the people don't.

What about Castro? You may say? Does Castro live in a big house with billions of the nation's money he can spend on golden guns or big cars? Castro doesn't live in that style. This is why you never saw a big revolution against Castro and never seen the government collapse after he left his job. Even with CIA trying to get rid of the government. Nothing major happen.

This is why Socialism needs to be elected like Mohammad Mosaddegh, Salvador Allende, Chavez, Mauricio Funes, Laura Chinchilla, & Daniel Ortega.

[Bud Struggle]

^^^^It's nice to see a Communist that isn't infavor of "Dictators for Life." :)

[Robert]

What about Castro? You may say? Does Castro live in a big house with billions of the nation's money he can spend on golden guns or big cars? Castro doesn't live in that style. This is why you never saw a big revolution against Castro and never seen the government collapse after he left his job. Even with CIA trying to get rid of the government. Nothing major happen.


No revolution? I can't remember so much as a public protest in Cuba.

Apparently they do happen now and then ... with predictable results:lol::

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/08/24/2373640/four-cuban-dissident-women-detained.html

[aristos]

Government funding of terrorism back in the 1980s.

I thought the sources I gave you pointed out, that there was no state funded terrorism (Lockerby, Disco bombing in Berlin, etc.)?

[aristos]

Also, what poverty? He propelled the nation to the highest living standard in Africa.

[ComradeMan]

Also, what poverty? He propelled the nation to the highest living standard in Africa.

Highest living standard in Africa. With no offense meant to African people, given the dreadful state of many African nations as far as human rights and living standards are concerned the boast is not such a big one. Sure, he improved material conditions for many Libyans... but at what cost?

To take one rudimentary example, Libya was fortunate in having oil reserves, so how come Libyans did not enjoy the same standards of living as the oil-rich Gulf states?

[RGacky3]

To take one rudimentary example, Libya was fortunate in having oil reserves, so how come Libyans did not enjoy the same standards of living as the oil-rich Gulf states?

I'm actually not sure if that is true, do you have any stats on that?

[ComradeMan]

I'm actually not sure if that is true, do you have any stats on that?


Look at the HDI rankings for Libya, and then Gulf states like the UAE. The UAE is very high. If you look at the stats for the Arab League, Libya is under the UAE, Bahrain, Qatar and Kuwait, occupying 5th position.

[RGacky3]

I wonder if that includes migrant workers, a lot of those countries rely on migrant workers almost totally, and thoes migrant workers make up the underclass.

[tir1944]

Actually an economic crisis erupted in Chad and some other countries because hundreds of thousands of workers had to escape from Libya...mind you,most of them made very nice salaries which helped their families/relatives back home a lot...

[ComradeMan]

I wonder if that includes migrant workers, a lot of those countries rely on migrant workers almost totally, and thoes migrant workers make up the underclass.

According to online stats, CIA world facts, for the UAE about 85% of the workforce is expatriot and the total population below the poverty line is 19.5%, whereas in Libya it doesn't give a stat, it gives an estimation of around a third, i.e. 33%.

[B5C]

^^^^It's nice to see a Communist that isn't infavor of "Dictators for Life." :)

I am not a Communist. I am a Socialist. I don't see a class-less utopias in my future.



I thought the sources I gave you pointed out, that there was no state funded terrorism (Lockerby, Disco bombing in Berlin, etc.)?

These were acts sponced and paid for the by the state of Libya under Ghaddafi.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7967820/Yvonne-Fletcher-killer-may-be-brought-to-justice.html

In 2008, the Ghaddafi government admited guilt and paid millions of dollars to the victems of their attacks:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7703110.stm

Libya Admits Culpability in Crash of Pan Am Plane
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/16/international/middleeast/16NATI.html

[aristos]

Fine, here you go again:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/apr/17/lockerbie

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2011/03/28/libya-s-blood-for-oil-the-vampire-war

http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/180/9515-the-israeli-deception-that-led-to-the-bombing-of-pan-american-flight-103-over-lockerbie-scotland.html

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/new-doubts-over-crucial-evidence-in-lockerbie-trial-1.1112514

http://www.rinf.com/news/oct05/disturbing-questions.html

http://www.whale.to/b/blum7.html

http://www.whale.to/b/lockerbie.html

http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/news/north-east-news/2008/08/31/lockerbie-evidence-called-into-question-79310-21640187/

http://www.whale.to/b/lockerbie7.html

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=384786&rel_no=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103_conspiracy_theories#CIA_drug_smu ggling



Oh and they recanted the responsibility some time later:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/print/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/08_august/29/lockerbie.shtml

[pastradamus]

Also, what poverty? He propelled the nation to the highest living standard in Africa.

He also invested billions in the Italian state and befriedned maybe the most reactionary,corrupt and ultimetly ignorant leader in the EU Silvio Berlusconi. Berlusconi even described his late night sex parties with models as "bunga bunga" - a term derived from Gadaffi. He seems to be the only EU president upset by the fall of Gadaffi. He even paid off Italian Serie A Football team Perugia to play his son Saadi Gadaffi against Juventus (with whom he owned a large percentage).

In my opinon if you destroy civil liberties and institute an Islamic state where Shria law is observed over human rights then you are a tyrant and also someone who ignorantly sneers at the poor from your ivory tower.

The guy was a monarchist dictator plain and simple. I shall not mourn his loss.

[ComradeMan]

...

Sic transit gloria mundi- "the things of the world are fleeting".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8775617/Tony-Blair-wrote-to-Gaddafi-to-suggest-investment-projects.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/8772418/Tony-Blair-visited-Libya-to-lobby-for-JP-Morgan.html

http://www.unita.it/mondo/sparite-dal-sito-eliseo-le-foto-sarkozy-gheddafi-1.273634

etc etc etc....

"bunga bunga" derives from an old Italian joke from the 1980s.
http://www.libero-news.it/blog.jsp?id=1383

[Geiseric]

It doesn't matter whether or not he's dead... His regime is out of power, and I don't see why anybody should shed a fucking tear, it's not like he was a socialist, or anything even near a social democrat. This shit where socialists support, (not defend against imperialism) autocratic anti-working class dictators needs to stop, seriously if we were in between him and control over libya he would kill us without a second thought.

[CommieTroll]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/08/24/2373640/four-cuban-dissident-women-detained.html[/URL]

A news report on Cuba from a Miami newspaper? Yeah, that's not biased:rolleyes:

[pastradamus]

Sic transit gloria mundi- "the things of the world are fleeting".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8775617/Tony-Blair-wrote-to-Gaddafi-to-suggest-investment-projects.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/8772418/Tony-Blair-visited-Libya-to-lobby-for-JP-Morgan.html

http://www.unita.it/mondo/sparite-dal-sito-eliseo-le-foto-sarkozy-gheddafi-1.273634

etc etc etc....

"bunga bunga" derives from an old Italian joke from the 1980s.
http://www.libero-news.it/blog.jsp?id=1383

Indeed some interesting stuff there. Yeah, they all seemed to be quite content with the Gaddafi Regime before the uprising started. When it did, they knew that they could get more from Libya then they were already getting. Interestingly enough, Blair was a huge supporter of Mubarak in Egypt, so his fall didn't seem to suit either.

Gaddafi was said to have used this term to describe the sex parties that the Italian president attended and so it was used by him.


This expression was then frequently quoted by the Italian and international press during the 2011 investigation surrounding Silvio Berlusconi's underage prostitution charges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Berlusconi_underage_prostitution_charges), acquiring a quite different meaning as "an orgy involving a powerful leader"; as such, it was allegedly taught to Silvio Berlusconi by Muammar al-Gaddafi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_al-Gaddafi).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunga_bunga#cite_note-7)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunga_bunga

Just something comical that highlights the relationship between the two.