What can the next Mexican Government do different against the Drug Cartels?

[R_P_A_S]

Hey guys! I'm looking for some different opinions on this issue.

Obviously as a marxist I have no hope in a capitalist government being able to address the issue of drug cartels and violence effectively BUT! I still will like to think that there's a way to slow down the criminals drug cartels to a certain extend. Give the people of Mexico more security. Like most civilized countries in the world have. Why should Mexico be an exception?

How come Colombia "improved?" Did government repressing, paramilitary groups and CIA help really is to credit for the sudden decline of drug cartel violence and the demise of the Medellin and Cali Cartels? Was Pablo Escobar that powerful that all it took was for him to be killed?

I also understand that the Mexican state is extremely corrupted. A lot of the top leadership of the cartels is former Mexican Military personnel and many of their partners are working inside the Mexican Police and Government.

What can the next Mexican government do different?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

(1) Legalize the production of drugs and collectivize it

(2) Try to set up a work program to mop up unemployed young men who would otherwise join gangs

(3) Go after the financial assets of mafiosos and try to starve them that way instead of engaging them directly with force

(4) Put the military and police in a defensive posture and work on increasing public accountability and transparency regarding these institutions.

(5) Offer full amnesty to drug gang members who are nonviolent and limited amnesty to drug gang members who committed or contributed to acts of violence, except for the leaders of the gangs who must serve full sentences for their crimes.

(6) to fulfill (5), the government should work on setting up a "truth and reconciliation" committees to answer people's questions about who committed what crime and to offer violent individuals reduced sentences if they confess.

Of course it is questionable how likely it is that the traditional powerful institutions in Mexico would want all of those things as policy changes.

[Os Cangaceiros]

How come Colombia "improved?" Did government repressing, paramilitary groups and CIA help really is to credit for the sudden decline of drug cartel violence and the demise of the Medellin and Cali Cartels? Was Pablo Escobar that powerful that all it took was for him to be killed?


Colombia didn't improve at all. The cartels still use DC-10's and fucking submarines to send tons of cocaine all over the world. They pack massive cargo planes with coke on one-way trips to Africa, then unload & set the planes on fire when they land.

So yeah, needless to say, business is good.

[Princess Luna]

Do the same thing the US government did in 1932 (or was it 31?) that almost instantly got rid of the violence assoicated with the illegal alcohol trade...
LEGALIZE IT!!!!
Shit like heroin and crack are bad, but prohibition takes those dangerous and multiples it by 1000, while creating criminal gangs. And it doesn't reduce consumption or availability, if I had any desire to I could to go get a bag of coke, with the same ease I could go get a bottle of wine. Easier in fact, because I am under 21 and drug dealers (unlike licensed liquor stores) don't check IDs. Simply put people want shit like drugs, prostitution, and gambeling (I am ignoring Indian casinos here), and as long as people want that stuff and are willing to pay money for it, there will be people who are willing to take the money and provide the services. As for what the Mexican government should do, tell the U.S. government to go fuck it's self. Let anybody who wants grow or transport drugs though Mexico, provided they cause no trouble and/or violence.

[R_P_A_S]

Colombia didn't improve at all. The cartels still use DC-10's and fucking submarines to send tons of cocaine all over the world. They pack massive cargo planes with coke on one-way trips to Africa, then unload & set the planes on fire when they land.

So yeah, needless to say, business is good.

ha! yes... that's why I put the word "improve" in quotations. That's all I hear on the general media.. that Colombia has improved so much. But honestly the violence isn't as bad as it was in the 80's and 90's... Or at least you don't hear about it as much in the media.. Something had to change..?

[R_P_A_S]

Legalizing hard drugs like Heroin and Cocaine? Why do we want to have this stuff available for our working class people? How can we do this to our own?

I know they can get it regardless. But I just don't see how putting this stuff at the corner store next to the beer and the lighters effective..

[tir1944]

Can't believe leftists are actually advocating the legalization of hard drugs...
What happened when suddenly there was a big influx of cheap crack in the 80s USA?
A social catastrophe,that's what happened.
If that shit got legalized,a huge epidemia of drug-abuse would explode,especially in the ghettos and such.
That's why Huey Newton,The Black Panthers and others fought against drugs.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not sure why violence has gone down in Colombia, if it indeed has (I don't know much about crime stats there), but it certainly had nothing to do with the state "winning" the war on drugs there. It's hard to wage war on an important part of your own economy. Also, I'm pretty sure that Colombia's political system is a bit on the jackboot side of the political spectrum, probably more so than any other South American state. Colombia's record with human right's and labor activists is, how shall we say, less than good...

[Princess Luna]

Can't believe leftists are actually advocating the legalization of hard drugs...
What happened when suddenly there was a big influx of cheap crack in the 80s USA?
A social catastrophe,that's what happened.
If that shit got legalized,a huge epidemia of drug-abuse would explode,especially in the ghettos and such.
That's why Huey Newton,The Black Panthers and others fought against drugs.
You do know one of the main reasons for the rise of crack in 1980's was because it was cheap right? At the same time the poor were dieing from crack, the wealthy were freebasing coke with little health side effects. Ask any economist and they will tell you that drugs (if legalized) would be far cheaper then today, meaning people in ghettos would not have to turn to dangerous drugs like meth and crack, because safer drugs would be avaible.

[tir1944]

Ask any economist and they will tell you that drugs (if legalized) would be far cheaper then today, meaning people in ghettos would not have to turn to dangerous drugs like meth and crack, because safer drugs would be avaible.
What? Crack is widely used in the ghettos even today.Imagine what would have happened if it got legalized and/or even worse drugs appeared.
This is just plain idiotic.If the price of crack comes down,the people will turn to "less dangerous drugs" (which ones btw?)!
Nonsense.

[Princess Luna]

What? Crack is widely used in the ghettos even today.Imagine what would have happened if it got legalized and/or even worse drugs appeared.
This is just plain idiotic.If the price of crack comes down,the people will turn to "less dangerous drugs" (which ones btw?)!
Nonsense.
Do you see bankers using crack? No, why? because they can afford actual cocain, and with the exception of being able to over-dose (which can be countered by labeling the potency on the bag) the long term health side-effects of cocain are around the same degree as alcohol. Its not remotely as lethal as crack.

[R_P_A_S]

I can imagine Marijuana being legalized and farmed like a tobacco crop. that just seems NATURAL to me. But imagining private factories employing people to make Heroin and Cocaine? Even Meth? really? and then package it and sell it at stores? Let's get real..

Why do people even use these hard drugs? That's that question.. there's a demand because of a bad economy, high crime, unemployment and also lack of education and funding in the inner cities.

[tir1944]

Do you see bankers using crack? No, why? because they can afford actual cocain, and with the exception of being able to over-dose (which can be countered by labeling the potency on the bag) the long term health side-effects of cocain are around the same degree as alcohol. Its not remotely as lethal as crack.
Also are you seriously suggesting that a cocaine epidemia in the ghettos (and in other places) would be a good thing?

[R_P_A_S]

hey guys but can we concentrate more on what can be done as opposed to turning this into a crack vs cocaine debate? thanks!

[Princess Luna]

Also are you seriously suggesting that a cocaine epidemia in the ghettos (and in other places) would be a good thing?
No, I am saying that the use of drugs is the same in pretty much every social strata. But because of prohibition, the price of drugs forces the poor to seek more dangerous (but cheaper) drugs. Also the war on drugs is aimed solely at the poor, so it seems like drug use is higher among them, but people in the upper echelons of society use the same amount of drugs, just different ones and the DEA wouldn't dare raid their houses because when rich white people start crying, politicians listen.

[tir1944]

No, I am saying that the use of drugs is the same in pretty much every social strata.
Since when?



But because of prohibition, the price of drugs forces the poor to seek more dangerous (but cheaper) drugs.
So if the price of drugs comes down,the poor population which is naturally inclined towards drug use will,i assume,consume even more drugs and thus have less money for things like education etc.Are you seriously advocating for this.Jeeez....



Also the war on drugs is aimed solely at the poor, so it seems like drug use is higher among them, but people in the upper echelons of society use the same amount of drugs, just different ones and the DEA wouldn't dare raid their houses because when rich white people start crying, politicians listen.
You're missing the point.The poor use drugs mainly as a "getaway" from misery and povery.The rich use it for fun.If a gram of coke would suddenly cost 1$ that wouldn't bring anything good to the poor people,on the contrary.
Everything would collapse and you'd have millions of drug abusers.
It's not like i'm making all this up,there's a historical precedent for this!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_epidemic_%28United_States%29

[RadioRaheem84]

This is of course talking about the legalization of drugs in a capitalist society, which would actually be a big mistake.

Under socialism, not so much. Heck, under healthier social democratic nations it's not epidemic bad like in the States.

[阿部高和]

I disagree with the legalization of drugs under any circumstances, I mean yes, cannabis and alcohol are socially ingrained, so cannot be done away with, but there is no place in any society for heroin, shabu, and cocaine.

[R_P_A_S]

My cousin is a doctor in Mexico. She was working in the Northern state of Durango. She got her degree in Havana. So obviously she works at a state funded clinic in a small rural area. She had to leave her clinic because of the constant drug cartels coming in there.. busting open the doors and dumping dying drug dealers on her operating table and with guns drawn demanding her to stitch them up, bandage them up and medicate them. This was becoming a lot of stress. Even though she said the drug cartels would compensate her more than enough.. they would just leave a stack of money "for her troubles" after she helped out with their wounded.. But the fact of the matter was that people stop coming to the clinic because fear of the cartels and obviously she feared for her life everytime they came in and disrupted her medical practice.. sometimes in the middle of her treating a patient they would just show up with bleeding bodies and forced her and her nurses to care for them first. shot up and stabbed..

Please keep the good suggestions coming on what the next administration should do different.

[Princess Luna]

I can't think of anything the Mexican government can do that would end the cartels, because the cartels are a result of US policy and as such its only US who can end the illegal drug trade by ending it's prohibition on drugs. The best thing that Mexican government can do is to simply leave the cartels alone, let them transport drugs though Mexico. The harder the Mexican government has attempted to crush the drug trade, the more the cartels fought back and retaliated by attacking innocent people.

[rundontwalk]

I think, from a US perspective, there is actually more the US can do to bring about the end of the drug war in Mexico. Stuff like easing out subsidies of corn, & etc., that are ruining the livlihoods of Mexican farmers - actually, on second thought, just redo/get rid of NAFTA period. Then of course drugs need to be either legalized or decriminalized.

And I'd like the US to institute some sort of Marshall Plan in Mexico/Central America.

[dubaba]

You wouldnt get rid of the mexican cartels by legalizing drugs in mexico, only legalizing drugs in the US would destroy them as we are there biggest buyers.

[Comrade-Z]

I disagree with the legalization of drugs under any circumstances, I mean yes, cannabis and alcohol are socially ingrained, so cannot be done away with, but there is no place in any society for heroin, shabu, and cocaine.

So if you had your way, you'd ideally ban cannabis and alcohol too? Now I know what to look forward to under your glorious socialist revolution...

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/wim/wyl/socdem/redstar/redstar311.html

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/wim/wyl/socdem/redstar/redstar356.html

Drug use, for better or worse, is here to stay. Get used to it. Legalize it.

[Psy]

You wouldnt get rid of the mexican cartels by legalizing drugs in mexico, only legalizing drugs in the US would destroy them as we are there biggest buyers.

Industrialization of Mexico on a massive scale would also destroy drug cartels by drawing the poor rural Mexicans into urban factories thus depriving drug cartels of labor. Of course this would make the crisis of over production in global capitalism much worse (but hey the drug problem would be solved in Mexico).

[tir1944]

Industrialization of Mexico on a massive scale would also destroy drug cartels by drawing the poor rural Mexicans into urban factories thus depriving drug cartels of labor.
Don't you worry,the border with Guatemala is quite porous...if there's one thing the cartels won't run out of it's the workforce.


Get used to it. Legalize it.
No thank you.
Pretty much every communist fought against drugs.
Especially the leaders of the poor Blacks-people like H.Newton etc.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I've seen drugs fuck up peoples lives before, so I am hesitant to say allow people to get doped up as they please. however, at the same time I don't want to be the guy that goes around saying this is bad this is good. I am very anti-drug and don't want it around me or my family, and honestly if I caught my brother getting high, I'd kick his ass and the ass of whoever gave him the substance.

Legalizing drugs in Mexico would do nothing to the cartels, since the US is where the money is at. The cartels will continue to kill and wreak havoc all over country either way. The traffickers have already started a bloodbath in the streets. Allowing it to go on is insane, however continuing the current policy is not getting them anywhere because of the corruption and the amount of power the cartels have in the society. I don't like these asshole mafioso organizations and they need to be dealt with firmly, however I doubt the forum is going to think up something that the Mexican government hasn't tried yet.

Considering the drugs go straight to the US for the most part, I say look the other way, however when dealing with violence, and whatnot from these cartels within Mexico. The government should use its full might. Hell get a plane and bomb the fuckers. If they feel like it's okay to decapitate people in the streets like it's the 12th century then it's fair game for the Mexican air force to drop a ton of ordinance on these mafioso's homes. Maybe I am being a bit harsh but the violence in Mexico from these assholes is getting out of hand.

They want to be savages? Then so be it, we can all be savages.

[Psy]

Don't you worry,the border with Guatemala is quite porous...if there's one thing the cartels won't run out of it's the workforce.

There is three solutions to that, a) even more industrialization to absorb all of Guatemala's work force right into Mexican factories as soon as they cross the border. b) use the massive industry controlled by the state to erect a massive a wall along the border. C) Use the new means of production to build a war machine and simply annex Guatemala but this is very risky as it can easily backfire and simply create a massive wave of refuges that are even more willing to work for drug cartels.

Note: option C can't be done by any socially minded government as it is highly imperialistic and oppressive of the proletariat (more so then the status-quo). Thus any government willing to go for C probably would only see drug cartels as a problem as it prevents them from exploiting workers even more (i.e they see drug cartels raising wages too high thus want to crush them to lower the average wage of Mexican workers).

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

You wouldnt get rid of the mexican cartels by legalizing drugs in mexico, only legalizing drugs in the US would destroy them as we are there biggest buyers.

However, as I tried to explain in another thread on this issue, legalising the drugs in either Mexico or the United States is not going to stop an already established criminal syndicate. Did the end of the prohibition stop the criminal syndicates that benefited from smuggling and bootlegging? No, they diversified and shifted their dealings into new sectors, eventually going into drugs as well as legitimate industrial and commercial endeavours (because they have a lot of liquid capital and are hungry for investment). Criminal syndicates cannot be separated from the day to day operations of capitalism as a whole, it is a fundamental part of it, and to some extent it is prone to being more successful precisely because it does away with the pretences of already established and the "main-stream" order of business, which likes to fancy itself the moral majority.

The criminal syndicates would, in the event of legalisations, probably use their considerable influence and force to maintain their control over distribution and production, and potentially create new chemical compounds, preferably with a production more easily controlled than something like cannabis which unfortunately can be grown readily in most places. Nevertheless, there is little reason to think that this legalisation would in any serious way dent the operations of criminal syndicates. If they were so frail as to cave in and be unable to react to changing circumstances, they would not be where they are today in the capitalist market.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Why is it unfortunate that cannabis can be grown most places?

[Princess Luna]

However, as I tried to explain in another thread on this issue, legalising the drugs in either Mexico or the United States is not going to stop an already established criminal syndicate. Did the end of the prohibition stop the criminal syndicates that benefited from smuggling and bootlegging? No, they diversified and shifted their dealings into new sectors, eventually going into drugs as well as legitimate industrial and commercial endeavours (because they have a lot of liquid capital and are hungry for investment). Criminal syndicates cannot be separated from the day to day operations of capitalism as a whole, it is a fundamental part of it, and to some extent it is prone to being more successful precisely because it does away with the pretences of already established and the "main-stream" order of business, which likes to fancy itself the moral majority.

The criminal syndicates would, in the event of legalisations, probably use their considerable influence and force to maintain their control over distribution and production, and potentially create new chemical compounds, preferably with a production more easily controlled than something like cannabis which unfortunately can be grown readily in most places. Nevertheless, there is little reason to think that this legalisation would in any serious way dent the operations of criminal syndicates. If they were so frail as to cave in and be unable to react to changing circumstances, they would not be where they are today in the capitalist market.
There are several major differences between the drug cartels and the mafia during alcohol prohibition, one is the fact the mafia existed before AP and even at the height of prohibition, the illegal alcohol trade was not the only illict activity it had it's hands into. The drug cartels on the other hand exist for the sole purpose of producing drugs, any other illict activities such as weapons smuggeling are mearly done it help secure there hold on the markets. Also the criminal gangs that operated during AP were generally local, in other words the mob in Chigaco would control production of alcohol for the surrounding regions, same for other cities. After AP ended, it was not that hard for criminals to run other things like gambeling and prostitution in the same way. The drug cartels don't have that luxury, it's not possible for the head of a drug cartel to sit in Bogota and effientally control prostitution in Los Angeles.

[ThePintsizeslasher]

However, as I tried to explain in another thread on this issue, legalising the drugs in either Mexico or the United States is not going to stop an already established criminal syndicate. Did the end of the prohibition stop the criminal syndicates that benefited from smuggling and bootlegging? No, they diversified and shifted their dealings into new sectors, eventually going into drugs as well as legitimate industrial and commercial endeavours (because they have a lot of liquid capital and are hungry for investment). Criminal syndicates cannot be separated from the day to day operations of capitalism as a whole, it is a fundamental part of it, and to some extent it is prone to being more successful precisely because it does away with the pretences of already established and the "main-stream" order of business, which likes to fancy itself the moral majority.

The criminal syndicates would, in the event of legalisations, probably use their considerable influence and force to maintain their control over distribution and production, and potentially create new chemical compounds, preferably with a production more easily controlled than something like cannabis which unfortunately can be grown readily in most places. Nevertheless, there is little reason to think that this legalisation would in any serious way dent the operations of criminal syndicates. If they were so frail as to cave in and be unable to react to changing circumstances, they would not be where they are today in the capitalist market.

Seriously? Back when I was a right-wing "libertarian" I ran into this argument a lot from right-wing drug warriors. It so facile its hurts.

Of course hardened sicarrios, mafioso, MS-13 and other gangbangers won't become squeaky clean bourgeoisie citizens if the drug war is ended. But it will severely cripple them. Marijuana alone accounts for 84% of the cartels trade. Not 84% of profits, but take away 84% of any capitalist's trade and they will be hurting. The Chicago Outfit of today, or even in the 50s is nothing compared to their heyday during Prohibition when they OWNED the city, from the police to the city aldermen to the mayor. They lost control of the alcohol industry after prohibition as did other criminal elements, and for some, such as the New Orleans crime family, it spelled their death knell.

The cartels are not quite the criminal entreprenuers that the Mafia, Camorra and the 'Ndrangheta are(who get involved in almost every business venture you can imagine). Taking away their drug business will make them irrelevant and the violence that plagues the Mexican and American working class will drop.

Prohibition creates violence inherently by creating black markets run by lumpen. But harsher enforcement of drug laws actually creates more violence(as does any disruption of trade within a black market). Google "Drug Enforcement, Gateway to Violence" for a study that links harsher enforcement of drug laws being followed by increases in violence. There are two other studies that I might be able to find.

The drug war has always been and attack on the working class and a racist attack on minorities. Working class people and minorities are(even by the cops own words as the LuLzSec Arizona cops email leak shows) arrested at higher rates, even when they don't use as high as the middle class and their neighborhoods are often turned into war zones by the police and gangsters. The revolution isn't around the corner, but 50% of Americans think marijuana should be legalized(including some conservatives I know), so if some reformism can lead to the working class becoming less persecuted by the bourgeoisie and the lumpen, as well as weakening these enemies(particularly the latter) then we should support it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The drug cartels on the other hand exist for the sole purpose of producing drugs, any other illict activities such as weapons smuggeling are mearly done it help secure there hold on the markets.

Well, they are also involved in human trafficking.

But I generally agree with the points made in regards to the crime syndicates. Whether or not criminals will stop committing crime if drugs are legalized isn't really the point. Yes, criminals existed in the 40's and 50's USA, involved in things like illegal gambling houses, prostitution, small-time rackets/fraud, but these activities were subcultural in a way that what's happening in Mexico isn't, and those activities didn't explode into civil society in the way that the cocaine wars of the 80's did, or what's happened in Mexico or Colombia.


The criminal syndicates would, in the event of legalisations, probably use their considerable influence and force to maintain their control over distribution and production, and potentially create new chemical compounds, preferably with a production more easily controlled than something like cannabis which unfortunately can be grown readily in most places.

They may have a significant influence in a legalized market, but that would only come about after they took off the machine gun and put on the business suit. That wouldn't come about as a result of the altruistic drug lord deciding that killing was wrong, either...it would be the result of him realizing that even the wealthiest drug kingpin isn't close to being as wealthy as Carlos Slim, and that using the power of the state to enforce property rights through the legal system is a far more stable way of controlling a market than paramilitary violence. As far as the belief that somehow the illegal syndicates would still control the drug trade even in a legalized environment, it's ridiculous...there are no super-violent cigarette cartels in the USA, nor alcohol cartels. Even in places of only semi-legality for marijuana, like California, illegal dealers are facing desperate times due to the plummeting market value of their product.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Of course hardened sicarrios, mafioso, MS-13 and other gangbangers won't become squeaky clean bourgeoisie citizens if the drug war is ended. But it will severely cripple them. Marijuana alone accounts for 84% of the cartels trade. Not 84% of profits, but take away 84% of any capitalist's trade and they will be hurting. The Chicago Outfit of today, or even in the 50s is nothing compared to their heyday during Prohibition when they OWNED the city, from the police to the city aldermen to the mayor. They lost control of the alcohol industry after prohibition as did other criminal elements, and for some, such as the New Orleans crime family, it spelled their death knell.

Some will undoubtedly fail and flounder and be unable to adapt to the new circumstances, who disputed that?


The cartels are not quite the criminal entreprenuers that the Mafia, Camorra and the 'Ndrangheta are(who get involved in almost every business venture you can imagine). Taking away their drug business will make them irrelevant and the violence that plagues the Mexican and American working class will drop.

They have by now accumulated significant amounts of wealth, and could use this to maintain some dominance in areas. Those of them, like all capitalist investors, will fail to adapt will indeed perish, but I think you are underestimating the ability of such operations in cases to adapt to new circumstances, just like a virus develops resistance to an antibiotic. The growth of the drug trade has bolstered them and some of the violence grows out of this over-establishment on the market which breeds further brutality where already there was no shortage thereof.


The drug war has always been and attack on the working class and a racist attack on minorities.

When have I suggested the drug-war was ever efficient at containing the cartels or that the drug war is positive? Mandatory minimums are unacceptable and the rest of the operation more or less intently serves the criminal syndicates, I never suggested otherwise. Drug users need to be treated and not stacked into prisons for absurd amounts of time for petty offences. I was simply cautioning against the naïve thought that legalisation would automatically remove all troubles.

[R_P_A_S]

I think also the fact that the cartels use prison gangs and street gangs to move their product throughout the united states it also points out that these youths have to turn to gangs because of the lack of jobs, public funding and just general infrastructure in their communities.

The for profit corrections system is pretty much a university for crime. It's pretty much a fact, at least here in California.. the fact that a black or latino suspect is more likely to do jail time over the same crime a white suspects committed.

[Comrade-Z]

No thank you.
Pretty much every communist fought against drugs.
Especially the leaders of the poor Blacks-people like H.Newton etc.

So, the same working class that isn't intelligent enough to decide to use or not use drugs responsibly and that has to be kept away from all drugs by a paternalistic government is the same working class that is supposed to take society into its own hands? Ha!