Should the Zionist State of Israel exist ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

In in my opinion no because the Land should all belong to the State of Palestine never forget that the Zionists and the Nazis had an Alliance there was one Zionist who said that one Cow in Palestine is more worth saving than all the Jews in Europe. There was a Zionist who also said that the Anti Semites will be our best friends. My point is that Zionism does not help Jews and is not in the best interest of Jews the Zionists helped the Nazis kill Jews during the Holocaust Zionism also causes and promotes Anti Semitism and helps Anti Semitism grow. Zionism is Anti Semitic.

Zionism Promotes Anti-Semitism

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”
Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/zionismpromotes.cfm
Ten questions to the Zionists
by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L
Dean of Nitra Yeshiva and author of min hametzar


(Published by the author in 1948 and reprinted many times)


http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_documents/tenquestions.cfm
THE ROLE OF ZIONISM IN THE HOLOCAUST
"Spiritually and Physically Responsible "



From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis.


http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm

[thefinalmarch]

No state should exist.

[ComradeMan]

Israel has the same right to exist as any other state does.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Fuck no!!!!!

[PaulRosenberg]

Israel has every right to exist, just like every other nation.

[Per Levy]

the real question is much more should any state exist at all? and my awnser would be, no.

besides that i dont see to treat israel better or worse than any other state in the world.

[ComradeMan]

For the sake of the argument, what would be the argument for the justification for the State of Palestine? If we are to go around justifying states?

(I don't mean the current PA State by the way).

[EvilRedGuy]

For the sake of the argument, what would be the argument for the justification for the State of Palestine? If we are to go around justifying states?

(I don't mean the current PA State by the way).


That the Palestinians were there first?

That they stole their land? Like the Spanish and English stole the Americas.

[Zealot]

Not as a Zionist state. I agree with everyone else no state should exist but for a start, they should drop the Zionist BS

[thefinalmarch]

Israel has the same right to exist as any other state does.
So nil, then?

[thefinalmarch]

Not as a Zionist state. I agree with everyone else no state should exist but for a start, they should drop the Zionist BS
Israel will always exist as a Zionist state imo. The geopolitical situation in the mid east (continuous threat of war/intensification of war, etc.) forces it to adopt a Zionist character.

[Fopeos]

Until the Isreali and Palestinian workers tear it down, it will exist. No state has a right to exist. The state is just the structure through which ALL workers are oppressed.

[RGacky3]

Does Israel have the right ot exist? Does palestine? It does'nt matter its just semantics.

Israel DOES exist, and its existance is heavily protected, while at they same time they are ACTIVELY preventing palestinians to have any type of autonomy, much less exist as a nation.

[tir1944]

Of course not.
It should be dismantled.

[Nox]

Israel, just like any other state, has no right to exist.

But the case against Israel's existence is greater than any other state. Fuck Israel.

[Devrim]

But the case against Israel's existence is greater than any other state. Fuck Israel.

On what grounds? Are the actions of Israel worse than those of other states?

Devrim

[Ocean Seal]

Israel has the same right to exist as any other state does.
Not as it currently does. Could you say that Germany had the same right to exist as any other state after the outbreak of WWII? Because while were splitting hairs here defending state-wide gentrification and genocide we might as well draw a few parallels to other states. Why do you defend Israel, after all they do? Do you stick by them when they drop white phosphorous on civilian areas or when they level whole towns--because--hey, they can.

[Robert]

Could you say that Germany had the same right to exist as any other state after the outbreak of WWII?

The German government? No. The German nation as a people free to elect a new leadership and perpetuate their borders, language, customs and values? Yes.

I know it isn't easy to separate the two. But I don't see an alternative. Certainly not a "stateless, classless society".

[Kamos]

On what grounds? Are the actions of Israel worse than those of other states?

Devrim

Yes. Yes, they are. Not that they have any less right to exist (as no nation has the right to exist at all), but their actions are worse.

[JFB.anon]

It has the right, it's just that it shouldn't.

[Devrim]

Yes. Yes, they are. Not that they have any less right to exist (as no nation has the right to exist at all), but their actions are worse.

I don't like the idea of making a hierarchy of oppression, but I would like to know in what why Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is worse than, say for example Turkey's treatment of Kurds.

Devrim

[Kamos]

I don't like the idea of making a hierarchy of oppression, but I would like to know in what why Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is worse than, say for example Turkey's treatment of Kurds.

Devrim

Well, I don't know just how much Turkey oppresses the Kurds. I'm not saying they're the worst offenders either, but there are many other countries which don't bomb their minorities into submission. (And their neighbours too, in the case of Israel.)

[Devrim]

I'm not saying they're the worst offenders either,

It seemed to be what you said to me:



Are the actions of Israel worse than those of other states?Yes. Yes, they are


but there are many other countries which don't bomb their minorities into submission.

Yes, there are, mostly because they don't have to. Turkey, however, isn't one of them, and bombs Kurds in Iraq on a regular basis.

So why is Israel worse?

Devrim

[ComradeMan]

That the Palestinians were there first?

Really? Do we use the "we were here first argument"- funny, white racists in Europe try that one too.

Also, the Jews may also claim they were there first too... it's an argument on the more religious side of things. In addition to which there has never been an homogenous, Islamic, Palestinian state in history....


That they stole their land? Like the Spanish and English stole the Americas.

Except that most of the land of Israel was bought or transferred through government... but keep going...

....

But what about now, in 2011- what do you propose?

[Seth]

Fuck zionism, fuck zionists. There's your answer.

[ComradeMan]

Well, I don't know just how much Turkey oppresses the Kurds. I'm not saying they're the worst offenders either, but there are many other countries which don't bomb their minorities into submission. (And their neighbours too, in the case of Israel.)

Bomb into submission? Like err... carpet bombing you mean- similar to the US "intervention" in Cambodia? The US of course wiped out most of its minorities and kept the other minority as slaves and then an "apartheid" state until the 1960s. Just one example... and not an exhoneration of Israel, but it does seem that Israel gets judged by standards that other nations are not subjected to.

[Bud Struggle]

Bomb into submission? Like err... carpet bombing you mean- similar to the US "intervention" in Cambodia? The US of course wiped out most of its minorities and kept the other minority as slaves and then an "apartheid" state until the 1960s. Just one example... and not an exhoneration of Israel, but it does seem that Israel gets judged by standards that other nations are not subjected to.

Hateing Israel more than any other country that does similar tactics to its minorities, etc. is just Anti Semitism. I certainly don't agree with the way Israel treats Palestinians at all, but it certainly isn't worse than 20 other countries around the world that do the same to people living in their boarders.

[Devrim]

Really? Do we use the "we were here first argument"- funny, white racists in Europe try that one too.

So, I believe, do Zionists.


Also, the Jews may also claim they were there first too...

As you yourself acknowledge.


In addition to which there has never been an homogenous, Islamic, Palestinian state in history....

Which means exactly what? All of the states of the Middle East had their borders drawn within the memory of people still alive today. There had never been a State of Israel before 1948 either.

However, does the fact that an ethnic group had never had a state justify the barbaric policies of the Israeli state?

You write that:


Israel has the same right to exist as any other state does.

I agree with you, but for me it means that no states have 'rights'. I am a communist and I don't believe in the entire concept of 'rights'. However, I am against all existing states. I get the impression that you, on the other hand, use this as an argument to justify the existence of the state of Israel, rather than to oppose it equally as one would any capitalist state.


and not an exhoneration of Israel, but it does seem that Israel gets judged by standards that other nations are not subjected to.

What do you mean by judged? In legal terms Israel is not judged at all, and despite continued violations of international law is allowed to continue in its own way. This is true of all states though until they fall foul of the machinations of bigger powers, but that is due to the nature of the world imperialist system, and not due in any way to any sort of legal or moral judgement.

When Iraq was using chemical weapons in Halajba, all of the Western powers looked the other way. They all knew that at the time Iraq had chemical weapons because they had the receipts. At the time though it was expedient to ignore it. The same is true today of the atrocities perpetrated by the Israeli state.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Hateing Israel more than any other country that does similar tactics to its minorities, etc. is just Anti Semitism.

In many cases it is worse than a few people making anti-Semitic comments on websites. Opposition to the State of Israel, and its barbaric behaviour is used to tie the working class to national capital. At the moment Egypt is experiencing a huge strike wave, and striking workers are being condemned by the state and in the press as being unpatriotic, and "aiding the Zionist enemy".

Now of course these sort of denunciations are common fair. To recall a recent example in the region, striking Telekom workers in Turkey were called traitors through out the media during their strike at the same time as the last full scale invasion of Northern Iraq. To use an example that people on here may be more familiar with, at the time of the Falklands war, striking nurses in Southampton, England, were attacked vociferously on the front page of 'The Sun', and across the rest of the UK media.

Devrim

[freepalestine]

Israel, just like any other state, has no right to exist.
...it's really about palestinian refugees returning to their towns, villages and land that was stolen from them in the nakba and naksa,rather than the state or 'no state' answer.



... but I would like to know in what why Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is worse than, say for example Turkey's treatment of Kurds.

Devrim.. i'm surprised nobody has answered that 'question

[Nox]

On what grounds? Are the actions of Israel worse than those of other states?


You serious?

Take a look at the whole Israel-Palestine conflict and see. All states are illegitimate, but some do much worse things than others.

[~Spectre]

You serious?

Take a look at the whole Israel-Palestine conflict and see. All states are illegitimate, but some do much worse things than others.

Some do, but Israel doesn't stack up to the United States. The entire operation cast lead "war", is roughly equivalent to the second battle of Fallujah, which was just one tiny part of the overall invasion and occupation of Iraq.

The point is, there's no need to exaggerate what Israel does, it's already bad enough for any reasonable person.

Moreoever, consider that what Israel does is not solely the work of Israel. They get weaponry and business from a large selection of countries. The United States and Britain sell them weapons. Israel can then sell weapons to Colombia, Turkey, and China for instance. These things are connected.

[Nox]

Israel has every right to exist, just like every other nation.

Why does it?

No nation has a right to exist, a state is just a tool that is used to oppress and exploit people.

Fuck Israel especially.

[ComradeMan]

Why does it?No nation has a right to exist, a state is just a tool that is used to oppress and exploit people.

Sure, anarchists would say that in keeping with anarchism. However in this world most states do exist in spite of atrocious human rights abuses, exploitation and hypocrisy etc.... but usually there is only one state that is called upon to abolish itself with such ferocity....


Fuck Israel especially.

and it's that "especially" part that is most revealing..... ;)
...

It seems to me that other states are rightly/wrongly depending on your viewpoint, criticised in terms of their governments' actions. This is fair enough- no government should be beyond reproach, however when the Israeli government does something, it's not the Israeli government, it's the whole nation of Israel. The ferocity is such that Israel should be "abolished", "dismantled", "wiped off the map" and so on goes the rhetoric. Even during the height of apartheid South Africa with international boycotts, embargos, constant polemics, etc etc .... no one, within South Africa or outside of South Africa called for South Africa to be "wiped off the map" and many other states have their hands dirty too.

[RGacky3]

This whole discussion of their "right" to exist or rhetoric is simply stupid and pointless.

The fact is Israel DOES exist, and its existance is not threatend at all, its not going anywhere, and the rhetoric about it does'nt threaten it any more than Al Queada's rhetoric about the US.

But Palestine's right to exist on the other hand is actively everyday being denied and sabotaged, Israel IS a threat to its existance and is day by take taking more and more of their land, and preventing their statehood, and although Anarchist are against the concept of a state, right now statehood is the ONLY thing that will allow them to have any rights (invading a sovereign country is an act of war), and Israel is not allowing that to happen.

So stop fighting about rhetoric and philosophy and look at what ACTUALLY is going on, Israel (backed by the US), is preventing palestine from existing and thretening the existance of any palestinian autonomy and dispossesing and oppressing them everyday, thats what is happening and that is what matters.

[ComradeMan]

right now statehood is the ONLY thing that will allow them to have any rights (invading a sovereign country is an act of war), and Israel is not allowing that to happen..

Except... that Abbas' appeal to the UN for recognition of statehood is not unilaterally supported by Palestinians. Some groups declaring that there only goal is for all of pre-1948 "Palestine"...

[RGacky3]

Except... that Abbas' appeal to the UN for recognition of statehood is not unilaterally supported by Palestinians. Some groups declaring that there only goal is for all of pre-1948 "Palestine"...

Does'nt change a word of what I said.

[~Spectre]

Except... that Abbas' appeal to the UN for recognition of statehood is not unilaterally supported by Palestinians. Some groups declaring that there only goal is for all of pre-1948 "Palestine"...


Some Israeli zionists (and government officials) declare the exact same thing on their side. What's your point?

[#FF0000]

For the sake of the argument, what would be the argument for the justification for the State of Palestine? If we are to go around justifying states?

(I don't mean the current PA State by the way).

Destroy all Nations.

but for what its worth Israel literally drops napalm on residential areas so.

p.s. i see you making some roundabout justifications for israel. you ain't slick

[#FF0000]

Hateing Israel more than any other country that does similar tactics to its minorities, etc. is just Anti Semitism.

Nah I don't think so.

[ComradeMan]

but for what its worth Israel literally drops napalm on residential areas so.

Napalm: "More recent uses include: by France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) during the First Indochina War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War) (1946–1954), the Algerian War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War_of_Independence) (1954–1962),[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#cite_note-12) the Portuguese Colonial War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War) (1961–1974) and the Western Sahara War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara_War) (1975–1991), in Nigeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria) (1969), India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) and Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan) (1965 and 1971), Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) used napalm bombs to depopulate entire towns and villages which were converted to military bases in Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) (1964, 1974), by Morocco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco) during the Western Sahara War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Sahara_War) (1975–1991), Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) (1980–88), Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) (1967, 1982), Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) (1972), Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) (1973), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) (1980–88, 1991, 2003–present[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]), Angola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola) (1993), and by Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) (1982).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#cite_note-globalsecurity.org-2)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#cite_note-13)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm

Or are you talking about white phosphorus, as in this incident?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-admits-using-phosphorus-bombs-during-war-in-lebanon-1.203078

In which case,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Israel-Lebanon_conflict_.282006.29

"White phosphorus was used on a number of occasions by Palestinian militants against Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel). In September, 2010, Palestinian militants fired two mortar shells containing white phosphorus into Israel from the Gaza Strip.[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-LappinKatz-60)[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-Pfeffer-61)[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-Murphy-62) Rocket attacks launched by militants out of Gaza into southern Israel have been reported to use white phosphorus as late as March 2011.[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-YaakovKatz-63)[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-GrifiN-64)Additionally mortar shells containing WP were fired by Gaza militants at Kibutz Kerem Shalom in August 2011.[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-65)[67]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-66)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Israel-Lebanon_conflict_.282006.29


Does'nt change a word of what I said.

So the fact that you name opposition to Palestinian statehood as a major obstacle in the liberation of Palestinians and yet a significant proportion of Palestinians/Palestinian groups oppose the actual bid that is being made by Abbas is completely insignificant, does not affect things whatsoever and has no bearing on the geo-politics of the region.

Sure...

[Nox]

Here's a brilliant idea: The no-state solution!

Screw the one-state and two-state solutions, this is the way forward.

[ComradeMan]

Here's a brilliant idea: The no-state solution!

Screw the one-state and two-state solutions, this is the way forward.

A sound anarchist position, but do you think the Palestinians as a whole are going to support you?

[#FF0000]

"White phosphorus was used on a number of occasions by Palestinian militants against Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel). In September, 2010, Palestinian militants fired two mortar shells containing white phosphorus into Israel from the Gaza Strip.[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-LappinKatz-60)[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-Pfeffer-61)[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-Murphy-62)Rocket attacks launched by militants out of Gaza into southern Israel have been reported to use white phosphorus as late as March 2011.[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-YaakovKatz-63)[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-GrifiN-64)Additionally mortar shells containing WP were fired by Gaza militants at Kibutz Kerem Shalom in August 2011.[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-65)[67]" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#cite_note-66)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Israel-Lebanon_conflict_.282006.29

lol oh no tiny inaccurate mortar shells full of white phosphorous compared to air bursts of 155mm artillery shells that spreads the stuff in a 150 meter circle in densely populated areas.

listen like i said: destroy all nations but do not think nobody notices you weasling your way around this issue to defend israel.

[RGacky3]

So the fact that you name opposition to Palestinian statehood as a major obstacle in the liberation of Palestinians and yet a significant proportion of Palestinians/Palestinian groups oppose the actual bid that is being made by Abbas is completely insignificant, does not affect things whatsoever and has no bearing on the geo-politics of the region.

Sure...

Are you claiming that if Israel stopped their opposition, that the little group in palestine would stop it? They arn't the one blocking any palestinian autonomy, its Isreal.

[ComradeMan]

lol oh no tiny inaccurate mortar shells full of white phosphorous compared to air bursts of 155mm artillery shells that spreads the stuff in a 150 meter circle in densely populated areas.

listen like i said: destroy all nations but do not think nobody notices you weasling your way around this issue to defend israel.

Here's a list of regimes/governments I "defend" uncritically.
....


;)

What I am saying is that moral highgrounds and painting the situation as being all good on one side and all irredeemably bad on the other is not constructive. There are innocent victims to be found on both sides- those are the people we should be concerned about.

[Devrim]

You serious?

Take a look at the whole Israel-Palestine conflict and see. All states are illegitimate, but some do much worse things than others.

Yes, I am serious. Take a look at Turkey and compare, and then tell me in what way you consider the actions of Israel to be worse.

Devrim

[tir1944]

Destroy all Nations.
Nations can't be destroyed or abolished,they have to wither away.

[progressive_lefty]

...

It seems to me that other states are rightly/wrongly depending on your viewpoint, criticised in terms of their governments' actions. This is fair enough- no government should be beyond reproach, however when the Israeli government does something, it's not the Israeli government, it's the whole nation of Israel. The ferocity is such that Israel should be "abolished", "dismantled", "wiped off the map" and so on goes the rhetoric. Even during the height of apartheid South Africa with international boycotts, embargos, constant polemics, etc etc .... no one, within South Africa or outside of South Africa called for South Africa to be "wiped off the map" and many other states have their hands dirty too.

You raise good points. These are reasons why I do not support any boycott against the State of Israel. The boycott of South Africa was quite upfront and direct to the point, a boycott of Israel is far more complex. You literally have all sorts of people boycotting for different reasons ie, they may want to stand for human rights, they may want a two-state solution or they may hate Jews or they may be Islamists.

[RGacky3]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/should-zionist-state-t162907/revleft/smilies/wink.gif

What I am saying is that moral highgrounds and painting the situation as being all good on one side and all irredeemably bad on the other is not constructive. There are innocent victims to be found on both sides- those are the people we should be concerned about.

The whole conflict is caused by palestine being denied the right to autonomy, THATs what needs to be focused on.

[Nox]

Yes, I am serious. Take a look at Turkey and compare, and then tell me in what way you consider the actions of Israel to be worse.

Devrim

Did I say Israel's actions were worse? No.

What I meant was that Israel has done some bad things and there are many other states our there that are nowhere near as bad as Israel.

[Void]

It is not Israel only... most nation-states seem to have expansionist nature. Nations should be killed from inside... Every individual has responsibility to kill own nation :) So here is a dilemma since mostly upper-classes seem to profit from the existence of nation-states, so is Israel, however Israel is also a special case since this state educates its own people including proletarians as religious expansionist fanatics... Such states are even more dangerous than some others... So in such cases there is a difference between for example state of Puerto Rico and Israel... But is there any power to stop Israel ? Who would do that ? Palestinians ? No... Iran ? No .. USA ? No... Israeli people has this responsibility but they are also tied to the fate of decision of upper-classes...

There was so many soil on earth... Such as Greenland or many inhabited places in Canada... Why was this state established in the middle east for Jews ? The situation is incredibly complicated and fate of these lands do not lie on the hands of other nations.. it lies on the hands of Jews and Palestinians.. Iran ? Does not have right to interfere with the business... as if Iran has not enough problem with itself... USA don't have the right to interfere. But military might between Palestinians and Israeli is extremely imbalanced. And it is a fact if Iran did not interfere for the defence of Lebanon through Hezbollah.. Lebanon would be lost.. Israel before trying to invade, continuously bombarded the civilians from air and even Christians supported Iran and Hezbollah.. Think about yourself... What would you do if your homeland is under attack ? You would need to support the only defending force... Unfortunately defending forces are religious as we do not wish... We wish they would be socialist but that is not the case... And this is what the expansionist/imperialist forces wish. They need to blame that a force is terrorist or fanatic... they need to forecast this in their media so that people believe the righteousness of such invasions.

If they would be socialist/communist defenders against Israel's expansionist policies Israel and other nations would not have the right to criticize religious fanaticism. Both Iran's religious regime and HAMAS in Palestine were supported by USA and Israel... They benefit from that fact that the defenders are ideologically religious based... This is where we begin to lose. Since there is no global righteousness in a war of religion. But Communism and global proletarian movement is the only righteous cause. It is also very obvious why Israel did not release the most important charismatic Fatah member but released mostly HAMAS members during prisoner exchange.. because they are always afraid of a leftist movement in Palestine.. and they rather wish religious fanatics as opponent...

Socialism/Communism is the ONLY realistic ground where both suffering classes of Jews and Palestinians can find a common cause ! Friendship of religions are bullshit... 2 states are bullshit... Israeli and Palestinian religious states are bullshit...

Workers of the World unite... The solution is so clear for the peace of whole world..

[Devrim]

Did I say Israel's actions were worse? No.

I said:


On what grounds? Are the actions of Israel worse than those of other states?

And you said:


You serious?

Take a look at the whole Israel-Palestine conflict and see. All states are illegitimate, but some do much worse things than others.

I'd take that as a yes, personally.

Devrim

[Nox]

I said:



And you said:



I'd take that as a yes, personally.

Devrim

Yes, Israel does worse things than many other states, that doesn't make it the worst...

Why are we even arguing about this?

[ComradeMan]

Yes, Israel does worse things than many other states, that doesn't make it the worst...

What then is this hierarchy of badness, according to you? Who is the worst? On what basis? Is anyone worse than Israel? How far up or down is Israel in this hierarchy?

[Ocean Seal]

listen like i said: destroy all nations but do not think nobody notices you weasling your way around this issue to defend israel.
Thank you, another sane person.

Yes, ideally all bourgeois nations should be destroyed. But the government of Israel is set up in the fashion of a racist settler state. Israel has bombed its enemies into submission and has continued that trend into today. Israel harms people in a way that say Jordan doesn't. If Israel were replaced by Palestine (supposing that Palestine was a bourgeois nation), you would still have economic oppression under capitalism, but they wouldn't be displaced from their homes on a massive basis, and they wouldn't suffer from what is essentially a forced third world situation caused by the existence of a wall and militarized action against Palestine.

[thefinalmarch]

ha now I know why comrademan is restricted

[Ocean Seal]

ha now I know why comrademan is restricted
Surprisingly, his pro-Israel stance isn't why he's restricted. I think it was something about Afghanistan with him.

[bricolage]

i mentioned turkey and it's relation with the kurds.
can you name me any resolutions brought against them?
if so did the u.s. veto .
does turkey get the same support from imperialism ,usa etc that the "isreal' state does?
This argument doesn't make much sense unless you are saying Israel is 'bad' because it ignores UN resolutions or because the US is an allie, instead of being bad because it bulldozes homes, bombs schools, practices ethnic exclusivity and so forth. The UN resolutions are a side point and only really relevant to liberal reformers.

If everything 'bad' that had happened under the name of the Israeli state had still happened but the US had spoken out against it every time would that change how 'bad' it was in any way?

[ComradeMan]

all palestinians call for an all Palestine

Except... they don't. That's a problem. The Palestinians are not united, nor is there a unanimous position- as recent events have shown us. Also there are many Arab-Israelis within Israel who are quite happy to be Israelis even though they do call for reform within Israel.


i mentioned turkey and it's relation with the kurds.can you name me any resolutions brought against them?
if so did the u.s. veto . does turkey get the same support from imperialism ,usa etc that the "isreal' state does?

It's not about UN resolution counts. A lot of those UN resolutions against Israel, albeit not all, are brought up by countries that have appalling human rights records, a lot of them Islamic nations. A far as Turkey is concerned I believe there was a whole array of UN resolutions with regards to its "occupation" of Cyprus.

"A UN member State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_member_states), is obligated to respect the United Nations Charter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Charter) and UN members are bound by its articles. Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) is the only UN member (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_member_states) that violates articles of the charter against the UN member Republic of Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Cyprus). Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) does not recognize the existence of the Republic of Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Cyprus), nor the Zürich and London Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCrich_and_London_Agreement)[1] (http://www.byegm.gov.tr/REFERENCES/cyprus-mfa.htm) which established the Republic of Cyprus. Instead Turkey refers to the Republic of Cyprus as the "Greek Cypriot administration of South Cyprus" in violation of multiple UN Resolutions [2] (http://www.mfa.gov.tr/MFA/PressInformation/PressReleasesAndStatements/pressReleases1999/June/June_4_1999.htm)[3] (http://www.mfa.gov.tr/MFA/ForeignPolicy/MainIssues/Cyprus/Statement+By+President+Denkta%C5%9F+In+Response+To +The+Call+Made+By+Greek+Cypriot+Leader+Clerides+Fo r+Tur.htm)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolution s_concerning_Cyprus

Turkey was also the first Islamic nation to recognise Israel in 1949- Turkey had very good relations with Israel up until 2006 when things started to go sour over the visit of Khaled Meshal (Hamas) to Turkey. However despite this souring both Israel and Turkey have strong military and economic links.

----
This is a situation that's "easy" if you look at in black and white terms but when you started going in "deep" it gets awkward and messy and there are no easy answers or solutions- as history has shown.

[RGacky3]

Turkey was also the first Islamic nation to recognise Israel in 1949- Turkey had very good relations with Israel up until 2006 when things started to go sour over the visit of Khaled Meshal (Hamas) to Turkey. However despite this souring both Israel and Turkey have strong military and economic links.


I think your missing something, i.e. the murder of turkish citizens in international waters.


Except... they don't. That's a problem. The Palestinians are not united, nor is there a unanimous position- as recent events have shown us. Also there are many Arab-Israelis within Israel who are quite happy to be Israelis even though they do call for reform within Israel.


So what? We are talking about the majority.

[ComradeMan]

I think your missing something, i.e. the murder of turkish citizens in international waters.

That was 2010, the Hamas controversy was in 2006 and what was what seems to have started the souring of the relationship...


So what? We are talking about the majority.

And what are the figures for this majority?

[RGacky3]

That was 2010, the Hamas controversy was in 2006 and what was what seems to have started the souring of the relationship...


It was in 2010 that they pulled their ambassadors and really got in Israels face.


And what are the figures for this majority?

Are you asking me that because you actually believe that a majority of palestinians DON'T want any type of autonomy? I'm not gonna look up self evident stuff for no reason.

[Joseph S.]

I as a jew denounce israel, its written in our scriptures only the messiah can give jews the promised land.
Jewish Autonomous Oblast is my solution.
This is part why i'm such a big Stalin fan.
Birobidzhan the capitol of Jewish Autonomous Oblast
:thumbup1:

[ComradeMan]

Are you asking me that because you actually believe that a majority of palestinians DON'T want any type of autonomy? I'm not gonna look up self evident stuff for no reason.

Strawman- I said it isn't unanimous and there are various groups who want differing things, which is undeniably part of the problem. I'm sorry but your "it's self-evident" is not a reliable source nor is it a statistic.

[DarkPast]

I as a jew denounce israel, its written in our scriptures only the messiah can give jews the promised land.
Jewish Autonomous Oblast is my solution.
This is part why i'm such a big Stalin fan.
Birobidzhan the capitol of Jewish Autonomous Oblast
:thumbup1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot

[RGacky3]

Strawman- I said it isn't unanimous and there are various groups who want differing things, which is undeniably part of the problem. I'm sorry but your "it's self-evident" is not a reliable source nor is it a statistic.

Do you not agree that most palestinians want autonomy?

Also if thats your first point, then its meaningless, nothing is EVER unanimous, and there are always different groups wanting different things, whats the point?

[ComradeMan]

Do you not agree that most palestinians want autonomy? Also if thats your first point, then its meaningless, nothing is EVER unanimous, and there are always different groups wanting different things, whats the point?

Your point is completely meaningless and vague because it's such an horrendous oversimplification of the situation that it is worthless unless you believe someone can just wave a magic wand and say "autonomy" and everything will be okay.:rolleyes:

[RGacky3]

No you don't SAY autonomy, you GIVE them autonomy ... and that will be ok, which is the reason for the conflict.

[Joseph S.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot
Omfg Capitalist propaganda @ its best
Capitalist Zionists diden't like the idea's of not being able to make huge amount's of money over the backs of the working class.
Thats why it never became the intendet given home land as it was ment to bee

[RGacky3]

Really? Its sourced ... And universally accepted, you sound like Holocaust deniers.

[Joseph S.]

Really? Its sourced ... And universally accepted, you sound like Holocaust deniers.
I'm not denying any thing plz dont put words in my mouth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYRz6FARbfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vhaM58ohU

[RedGrunt]

Fuck no!!!!!

This. And someone had a revleft members quote in their sig that I saw awhile ago, forget whos signature and whos quote.. but.. "Israel is just a U.S. base with a civilian population and economy." lol

[RGacky3]

I'm not denying any thing plz dont put words in my mouth.


You said it was capitalist propeganda, which implies its not true.

[Joseph S.]

You said it was capitalist propeganda, which implies its not true.So you'r saying Stalin killed 6000000 jews in auswitz???
Geus i'v missed that class in school
:rolleyes:

[alegab]

Here's a brilliant idea: The no-state solution!

Screw the one-state and two-state solutions, this is the way forward.


Yeaaaah, you mean as in the close future? It doesn't seem to be a good idea to insert an officialy no man's land in one of the most conflictive areas ever

I certainly don't support zionism, islamic fundamentalism (both of which fomment extreme nationalism), but this sounds a lot worse

[ComradeMan]

So you'r saying Stalin killed 6000000 jews in auswitz???
Geus i'v missed that class in school
:rolleyes:

Err... did you miss reading what people actually say class at school too? He isn't saying Stalin killed 6 million Jews in Auschwitz at all. What he's saying is that you are acting as obtusely and stubbornly as Holocaust Deniers in refusing to accept awkward little things like facts based on sources, witnesses, documents and evidence in general. ;)

[RGacky3]

So you'r saying Stalin killed 6000000 jews in auswitz???
Geus i'v missed that class in school
http://www.revleft.com/vb/should-zionist-state-t162907/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

No moron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors'_plot, is not that.

[Devrim]

Yes, Israel does worse things than many other states, that doesn't make it the worst...

Why are we even arguing about this?

Because there is an important point here. Once you start saying that certain states are worse than others, it is one small step to taking sides between different states.

Yes, most states don't behave as badly as Israel on a day-to day basis, but virtually all of them are capable of it.

Even in recent history Britain, the mother of democracies has been involved in car bombs in shopping areas of the capitals of friendly neighbouring states.

The danger that people will take sides is even more evident. The events in the Arab world have seen much of the left arguing for a more strident policy against Israel.

Our country, Turkey, has recently taken a more oppositional attitude towards ısrael, and, as with all of its foreign policy adventures, this a deep effect upon the mood within the working class. The government here is not 'OK' because it has taken a stance against Israel. It is still the same government which was previously attacking the working class.

The idea that some states are 'worse' than others can quite easily end up with people backing their own states, which is anathema to revolutionaries.


Yes, ideally all bourgeois nations should be destroyed. But the government of Israel is set up in the fashion of a racist settler state.

As were numerous other states, including the USA.


Israel harms people in a way that say Jordan doesn't.

Jordan did its fair bit of murdering Palestinians when they had to it 1970.


If Israel were replaced by Palestine (supposing that Palestine was a bourgeois nation),

And how do you suppose this is to happen?


i mentioned turkey and it's relation with the kurds.
can you name me any resolutions brought against them?
if so did the u.s. veto .
does turkey get the same support from imperialism ,usa etc that the "isreal' state does?

I think that you have t think about why there are UN resolutions against ısrael on the Palestinian question, but not against Turkey on the Kurdish question.

There are many Arab states, who can raise resolutions in the UN. On the other hand almost nobody in the region wants to raise Kurdish demands, as they go against their own interests.


The US of course supports Turkey as it is a member of NATO, though in recent years the relationship has been more strained.

That the Turkish state is on at least an equal level of barbarity with Israel is beyond doubt. More than twice the number of Kurds have been murdered by the Turkish state since the beginning of the present conflict in 1984 than the Israelis have murdered Palestinians since the foundation of their state.

If we go back to the foundation of the Turkish state in 1923, it is based on genocide and ethnic cleansing. In 1915 and 1916 alone, the people who would go on to found this state murdered 2,500,000 Armenians, not to mention Kurds, Pontus greeks and various other minorities who they massacred in the early years of the Republic.

The Turkish state is based on a genocide, which is in similar orders of magnitude to the Jewish holocaust during the Second World War.

Devrim

[MustCrushCapitalism]

It has a right to exist, simply because revivalism can only go so far... however, a Palestinian state should exist as well. Perhaps, better yet, a binational, non-religious state with Arab and Jewish community governments. (Like Belgium, although that doesn't work so well...)

[freepalestine]

I think that you have t think about why there are UN resolutions against ısrael on the Palestinian question, but not against Turkey on the Kurdish question.

There are many Arab states, who can raise resolutions in the UN. On the other hand almost nobody in the region wants to raise Kurdish demands, as they go against their own interests.


;)The US of course supports ..etecetec
Devrim
why is the west so supportive of isreal?
what would the icc do if it had a branch in palestine ,kurdistan or apartheid rsa ?

[B5C]

Israel has every right as a state like any state in the world. It has a government which supports the state, it has a populus that wants the states, and has a military to protect it's borders.

Should be it a Zionist State or a "Jewish" State? I don't believe so because a majority of the population is not even religious Jewish. A lot of them a secularists. I believe any laws to promote the Jewish religion or Jewish culture above another culture is wrong. A state should always be secular in my opinion.

[Judicator]

No the British should have kept all of their Middle East territories.

[Libertador]

No state should exist; neither should Palestine.

The only reason why we argue for the right of Palestinians to a state is so that they can properly defend themselves against affronts to their personal liberty. Once Israel ceases their offensive actions against the Palestinians and vice-versa, both states can wither and then both worker-communities can rise up.

[B5C]

No state should exist; neither should Palestine.

The only reason why we argue for the right of Palestinians to a state is so that they can properly defend themselves against affronts to their personal liberty. Once Israel ceases their offensive actions against the Palestinians and vice-versa, both states can wither and then both worker-communities can rise up.

I would love to see a stateless society as well, but this will never happen. Humans always divided themselves into many different groups, tribes, cities, and nation-states.

[Libertador]

I would love to see a stateless society as well, but this will never happen. Humans always divided themselves into many different groups, tribes, cities, and nation-states. Family, tribe, group =/= state. The modern concept of a state is actually a rather recent invention on the human scene. Immediately before you had states there existed nominal city-states with very little interference into the daily lives of its inhabitants where the modern state is heavily involved in the internal affairs of its citizens.

[B5C]

Family, tribe, group =/= state. The modern concept of a state is actually a rather recent invention on the human scene. Immediately before you had states there existed nominal city-states with very little interference into the daily lives of its inhabitants where the modern state is heavily involved in the internal affairs of its citizens.

Nations and states came out of them old city states of the past.

[Libertador]

Nations and states came out of them old city states of the past. I don't know what you're arguing at this point.