Political corectness?

[tir1944]

What exactly is Political corectness and what do leftists think about it?

[The Jay]

It's just what's polite at the time. That's really it.

[rednordman]

At very worst its a necersary evil. One that there is no way around it, despite what most conservatives think.

[Ose]

A lot of the time it doesn't get to the root of the issue, only addressing the symptoms of a deeper malaise. For example (so I have heard), in schools in the UK teachers no longer write on blackboards or whiteboards, but rather chalkboards and wipeboards, due to the supposed racial implications of the former names. The problem is not that these terms have any inherent racial meaning. If there were not an underlying culture of racism, no one would think anything of them. In this case at least, political correctness does nothing to address the real issue, which is what we should be focusing on.

It is sometimes necessary though.

[Red Rosa]

I think it's a bourgeois liberal way of policeing people how they should think about certain social issues. Political correctness means you shouldn't talk bad about Muslims, (sometimes) LGBT people, people of different ethnic and national background, etc. It's a tricky and sneaky liberal way of telling people they shouldn't fight about their differences but still telling them that they are different one from another. It's all about distracting people from complaining about capitalism and organize against it.

[Belleraphone]

At very worst its a necersary evil. One that there is no way around it, despite what most conservatives think.
Ironically, both the far left and the far right are undermined by it.

[ericksolvi]

Political correctness is idiotic reaction to fear.
People who worry about getting in trouble for what they say create a list of words to avoid. It's an anti intellectual, anti analytical, way for people to stupid to know weather or not what they're saying can be viewed as offensive to get through life. They're so desperate to avoid conflict that they rob themselves, and others, of freedom of speech.
They resent that some people can speak without sticking their foot in their mouth, so they try and hold everyone to the same ill conceived standard.

[#FF0000]

It's all about distracting people from complaining about capitalism and organize against it.

wrong

it is at worst a sorta flawed way of dealin with people being bigots.

i honestly don't care about political correctness because somehow I manage to talk about all sorts of controversial issues without saying things that are sexist/racist/bigoted and don't make a big dumb deal out of it like I'm being oppressed if someone is offended by something I said even if I didn't intend to offend anyone.

[hatzel]

People who worry about getting in trouble for what they say create a list of words to avoid. It's an anti intellectual, anti analytical, way for people to stupid to know weather or not what they're saying can be viewed as offensive to get through life.

It's a good job we're not posting on a forum with a list of words to avoid, then!

Oh...wait...

[ericksolvi]

It's a good job we're not posting on a forum with a list of words to avoid, then!

Oh...wait...

I realize this site has it's own version of political correctness. It is a flaw I will seek to correct through reason.

[Chairman Wow]

It's going to make me sing Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep isn't it?

Broken Britain.

[Scarlet Fever]

Let's not forget that it should never be too difficult to use language that is sensitive toward and inclusive of people--not as word policing, just as courtesy. It certainly doesn't mean we don't have to confront the underlying issues; as LiquidState says, it just comes down to politeness--avoiding language/behavior that makes assumptions and alienates people.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What exactly is Political corectness and what do leftists think about it?
In my personal experience, when I've called out reactionaries for their views, they've accused me of being "PC".

[ZeroNowhere]

It's the reason why you can't insult people reasonably on Revleft.

[Oswy]

What exactly is Political corectness and what do leftists think about it?

The term 'political correctness' is primarily used as an attack word by reactionaries to rubbish anything they see as challenging their freedom to exercise their prejudices. The irony is that all positions on what is 'correct' behaviour is politically positioned. Hence those who condemn the enforced removal of sexist calendars from the workplace (as one, albeit oldfashioned, example) are themselves imlying that it is 'politically correct' to display such calendars in the workplace.

Any movement which is genuinely progressive is to be defended, whether or not some reactionary retard (ahem) condems it as 'political correctness'.

[Red Rosa]

wrong

it is at worst a sorta flawed way of dealin with people being bigots.

It is, but you gotta admit, it helps the ruling class to distract people from thinking about how capitalism affects their lives.
Liberalism cares primarily about maintaining the capitalist system. All the talking about human rights, about how homophobia is bad, about muslim fundamentalists etc. is just to maintain a false picture of current system being moral, caring about people etc. It's clear to some liberals (some which are educated and aware of what capitalism does to society) that many of the bad things occur because of capitalism and that many (not all though) bad things would disappear if we organized a social revolution. of course, we shouldn't hesitate to deal with certain social issues before revolution, but it's all basically fun and games for people. I mean, liberals don't talk about horrible working conditions and people getting poorer and poorer, but they talk about the dangers of racism, islamophobia, homobhobia (i mention islamophobia all the time because that's been a hit issue since 2001. Ayaan Hirsi Ali did what she did and Theo van Gogh being killed and all that stuff); a man that has trouble paying bills and feeding their children won't care much about these social issues. Liberals know that and they do this to keep people occupied. I think it's the same thing like giving people stupid entertainment shows, big brothers, shopping, etc. keep people stupid and occupied. only this appears to be less stupid than shopping, which is even more dangerous because it tricks people into thinking that capitalism isn't all that bad, look, you have people caring about people, caring about social issues, when you compare it to nazism or fascism it's better, etc.

[Oswy]

It's going to make me sing Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep isn't it?

Broken Britain.

"Baa Baa" is a longstanding simplification, and thus misrepresentation, of the many and varied sheep utterances to be found across the world of sheep. You should be ashamed Comrade.

:laugh:

[rednordman]

Ironically, both the far left and the far right are undermined by it.

So true, but i used the term conservative, as in, someone who supports old right wing ideals and national traditions. That doesnt always make them far-right. In other words, i think pcness, is just a kneejerk slur word, for anybody who is progressive, and or isnt proud of the nations past or traditions.

[Tjis]

The term 'political correctness' is primarily used as an attack word by reactionaries to rubbish anything they see as challenging their freedom to exercise their prejudices. The irony is that all positions on what is 'correct' behaviour is politically positioned. Hence those who condemn the enforced removal of sexist calendars from the workplace (as one, albeit oldfashioned, example) are themselves imlying that it is 'politically correct' to display such calendars in the workplace.

Any movement which is genuinely progressive is to be defended, whether or not some reactionary retard (ahem) condems it as 'political correctness'.
This.

Also, the accusation of political correctness has another implication: that a person avoiding offense is only doing so for political gain. In other words, that prejudiced language and expression is normal, and that people who do not partake in it and call out others on their use of prejudiced language are being insincere.
Of course, there actually is a lot of 'political correctness' that is very much insincere, such as when politicians and high police officers try to justify racist policy without sounding racist. But what is at fault there is not their words, it is their actions. In such a case, we shouldn't be calling them out on their use of political correct terms, but on the blatant racism in the policy itself.

Our society is very much prejudiced, in both words and in actions. It is important that revolutionary leftists keep challenging this, despite potential accusations of political correctness. Not doing so would be dishonest to everything we stand for.

[Scarlet Fever]

...it's all basically fun and games for people. ...a man that has trouble paying bills and feeding their children won't care much about these social issues. Liberals know that and they do this to keep people occupied. I think it's the same thing like giving people stupid entertainment shows, big brothers, shopping, etc. keep people stupid and occupied.

What if the man in your scenario was a trans man who couldn't find work specifically due to transphobic discrimination? It would be quite misinformed to say that people facing economic problems don't care about social problems; most of the time, they're inseparable. As another example of the "triviality" of social issues, can I point out that currently queer kids are four times more likely than straight kids to commit suicide? We can talk about how capitalism ties in to these and other forms of oppression, but something has to be done about these problems immediately. That's not "fun and games" or simply keeping people occupied, that's saving actual lives--and I speak from very personal experience on the subject.

Please don't assume that all social divisions will fall away the day after revolution. In fact it's the other way around; as I've said on another thread, the "workers and oppressed peoples of the world" will only be able to unite once the (social) divisions between them are overcome. If these bourgeoisie-imposed divisions are not first removed, then, even if the institutional manifestations of sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, etc. are eliminated, the underlying sentiments to which we have become unfortunately accustomed will remain with us like a phantom limb the amputee "feels" long after surgery is over.

[Ocean Seal]

Political correctness is to be honest a decent way of handling open bigotry sure it's flawed, but ask yourself the following. Do you tend to have bigger problems with people who are politically correct, or with those who aren't? Generally those who are most against political correctness tend to be extremely sexist, homophobic or racist. Be careful when thinking about joining the anti-pc crusade. Recall Grady Warren and his objections to the PC movement, and recall also that the man is a terrible racist.

[tir1944]

What is ableism?

[Red Rosa]

What if the man in your scenario was a trans man who couldn't find work specifically due to transphobic discrimination? It would be quite misinformed to say that people facing economic problems don't care about social problems; most of the time, they're inseparable. As another example of the "triviality" of social issues, can I point out that currently queer kids are four times more likely than straight kids to commit suicide? We can talk about how capitalism ties in to these and other forms of oppression, but something has to be done about these problems immediately. That's not "fun and games" or simply keeping people occupied, that's saving actual lives--and I speak from very personal experience on the subject.

Please don't assume that all social divisions will fall away the day after revolution. In fact it's the other way around; as I've said on another thread, the "workers and oppressed peoples of the world" will only be able to unite once the (social) divisions between them are overcome. If these bourgeoisie-imposed divisions are not first removed, then, even if the institutional manifestations of sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, etc. are eliminated, the underlying sentiments to which we have become unfortunately accustomed will remain with us like a phantom limb the amputee "feels" long after surgery is over.


Thank you for this post. Of course, what you are saying makes a lot of sense and I am very well aware of LGBTQ teen suicide rate. I am not saying that these issues are trivial, of course they are not, and as I said, it is wrong to wait until after revolution to start dealing with them, I'm just saying that it's hypocritical to talk about these issues and defend human right and still be liberal and not defend workers rights.
I repeat, yes, sometimes they are inseparable and yes, we should try to solve them, but there is this thing called an instinct for survival. You will first take care of your need for food and then the other things. It's just a natural hierarchy of needs, I don't think I have to explain that.
I am a woman and queer, so it's not like I don't have anything to do with the subjects I talk about. If during the revolution i would experience homophobia or misoginy from my comrades, I surely wouldn't just stand and smile. But, as you said, these issues, all of them, are interchangeable and I agree, only I will say it from another angle; It is impossible to expect disappearance of hopmophobia, transphobia, etc. by mantaining capitalist system because capitalism also generates and contributes to them. When people are being exploited and constantly stupified, of course they won't develop a sense of social awareness. This of course, and I repeat again, means that we should ignore these problems and concentrate of educating people about socialism so that we could have more people on our side and organize a revolution. Of course not. It's not hypocritical when you are talking about these social issues or when I am, because we want for all the opressed to be free, we want to abolish capitalism (i assume you do :) ). But it's very hypocritical when liberals are saying it because they don't want that. Especially those well informed and aware liberals. Coming from them, dealing with these social issues is a way to show capitalism as a moral system caring about people's rights. I'm not saying all liberals are like that, especially not those uninformed who would maybe become leftist if they read a little bit more. I am saying that ignoring the alarmingly difficult position of workers in capitalist societies, especially as capitalism progresses in them and talking about these issues alone is bullshit to me and knowing how capitalist system works, you can't really blame me for considering that "they are talking about those stuff to distract people from thinking about capitalism" might be real.

I didn't say that all social divisions would fall away. I'm aware that these mindsets and mentalities are much more complex and that revolution alone isn't nearly enough to erase them. But social society is based on solidarity and helping other person in order for you to succeed, I mean, that's it's structure, it can't work differently. We all work for the community, for each other to help ourselves as well. So that are good basis for solving some pre- revolution problems. Of course all of them won't dissapear and of course special attention and work would be required in order to solve them, but capitalist system is not a healthy basis to work on approvement of human rights. especially not long term.

[Red Rosa]

What is ableism?

It's discrimination against people with disabilities.

[Искра]

Political correctnes is not for me
With your words of wisdom I don't agree
Political correctnes, oh what a lie
PC wanker why don't you just die?!

[Kamos]

What is ableism?

A simple Google search would have solved that. Ableism is discrimination against the disabled, whether mentally or physically.

[Belleraphone]

So true, but i used the term conservative, as in, someone who supports old right wing ideals and national traditions. That doesnt always make them far-right. In other words, i think pcness, is just a kneejerk slur word, for anybody who is progressive, and or isnt proud of the nations past or traditions.
When I say far-right I mean our good friends from Stormfront, not the GOP/Paulbots/Moderate conservatives. It undermines the far right because they always scream about race. It undermines the far left because we use rhetoric like "class warfare" and "proletariat" and such. (Imagine if Obama said proletariat and bourgeois, FOX would jump all over him.)

[Scarlet Fever]

Thank you for this post. Of course, what you are saying makes a lot of sense and I am very well aware of LGBTQ teen suicide rate. I am not saying that these issues are trivial, of course they are not, and as I said, it is wrong to wait until after revolution to start dealing with them, I'm just saying that it's hypocritical to talk about these issues and defend human right and still be liberal and not defend workers rights.

Ok, I see what you mean, and you're right, it's very hypocritical(!).


I repeat, yes, sometimes they are inseparable and yes, we should try to solve them, but there is this thing called an instinct for survival. You will first take care of your need for food and then the other things. It's just a natural hierarchy of needs, I don't think I have to explain that.
I am a woman and queer, so it's not like I don't have anything to do with the subjects I talk about. If during the revolution i would experience homophobia or misoginy from my comrades, I surely wouldn't just stand and smile. But, as you said, these issues, all of them, are interchangeable and I agree, only I will say it from another angle; It is impossible to expect disappearance of hopmophobia, transphobia, etc. by mantaining capitalist system because capitalism also generates and contributes to them. When people are being exploited and constantly stupified, of course they won't develop a sense of social awareness. This of course, and I repeat again, means that we should ignore these problems and concentrate of educating people about socialism so that we could have more people on our side and organize a revolution. Of course not. It's not hypocritical when you are talking about these social issues or when I am, because we want for all the opressed to be free, we want to abolish capitalism (i assume you do :) ). But it's very hypocritical when liberals are saying it because they don't want that. Especially those well informed and aware liberals. Coming from them, dealing with these social issues is a way to show capitalism as a moral system caring about people's rights. I'm not saying all liberals are like that, especially not those uninformed who would maybe become leftist if they read a little bit more. I am saying that ignoring the alarmingly difficult position of workers in capitalist societies, especially as capitalism progresses in them and talking about these issues alone is bullshit to me and knowing how capitalist system works, you can't really blame me for considering that "they are talking about those stuff to distract people from thinking about capitalism" might be real.

Yes, I definitely see what you mean. Working/considering working with some (bourgeois) NGOs on poverty, immigration rights, human rights, etc. has been quite frustrating for me for this reason.


I didn't say that all social divisions would fall away. I'm aware that these mindsets and mentalities are much more complex and that revolution alone isn't nearly enough to erase them. But social society is based on solidarity and helping other person in order for you to succeed, I mean, that's it's structure, it can't work differently. We all work for the community, for each other to help ourselves as well. So that are good basis for solving some pre- revolution problems. Of course all of them won't dissapear and of course special attention and work would be required in order to solve them, but capitalist system is not a healthy basis to work on approvement of human rights. especially not long term.

Couldn't agree more! :thumbup: