Israel: prisoner exchange 2011

[ComradeMan]

Israel has agreed to release 1027 prisoners in an exchange deal for the hostage soldier Gilad Shalit.

However apprximately 280 of these prisoners are on murder convictions according to the wiki source.

What would you say to the families of the victims?

It's a difficult choice, but Israel is also trying to save the life of an Israeli soldier too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israel-Hamas_prisoner_exchange

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/mess-report/israel-and-hamas-are-both-winners-and-losers-in-shalit-swap-deal-1.389472

Among those to be relased there are those who were found guilty of being involved with the attack on the No.37 Haifa bus killing 17 people, mostly kids and teenagers, and injuring 53 other people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israel-Hamas_prisoner_exchange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=241857

[RGacky3]

40% of palestinian adult males have been inprisoned by Israel, I doubt 40% of palestian adult males are criminals.

Also the terminology, when Palestinian terrorists kill civilians they are arrested and inprisoned as criminals (as they should be), but when an Isreali soldier murders civilians ... its nothing, and if he is detained he's a hostage.

As for what I would say to the families of the victims? Nothing, I would first talk to the thousands apon thousands of family members of victims of Isreali terrorism, because there are a lot more of them and their terror is ongoing.

[ComradeMan]

As for what I would say to the families of the victims? Nothing, I would first talk to the thousands apon thousands of family members of victims of Isreali terrorism, because there are a lot more of them and their terror is ongoing.

Tu quoque argument.... nothing to say, shift the blame, "what about them" blah, blah, blah. How would you feel if your teenage daughter or son were innocently on the bus, in a disco or going to a pizzeria and were killed in an attack? Talk is cheap...

[Sasha]

in response to the OP, i think it speaks volumes about how much the israeli politicians actually care about the lives of their citizens compared to their unhindered continuation of the occupation when they rather release a few hundred nihilistic potential suicide bombers than one person, Marwan Barghouti, who could very possibly become the palestinian Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouti) a man that publically statet
"I, and the Fatah movement to which I belong, strongly oppose attacks and the targeting of civilians inside Israel, our future neighbor, I reserve the right to protect myself, to resist the Israeli occupation of my country and to fight for my freedom" "I still seek peaceful coexistence between the equal and independent countries of Israel and Palestine based on full withdrawal from Palestinian territories occupied in 1967.".
and the leader of the one organisation that until his arrest and the liquidation of his predecessor never got involved in suicide missions and preferred attacking military and political targets, Ahmad Sa'adat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Sa%27adat)

why does the israeli goverment rather release hundreds of militants who probably upon release jump back in to continue the pointless (but understandable) killing of civilians than release the two that could help stop it? thats the question the israeli population should get very angry about...

[RGacky3]

How would you feel if your teenage daughter or son were innocently on the bus, in a disco or going to a pizzeria and were killed in an attack? Talk is cheap...

I would feel terrible and indignant, but if you are going to look at the major problem in palestine, its the systemic persicution and terror put on the palestinian people.

Its like instead of focusing on the indigenous people and workers in colombia being murdered and abused every day you focus on the one or 2 capitalist innocent people that are killed by leftist terrorists.

I'm not shifting blame at all, I'm saying your focusing entirely on 5% of the problem and ignoring 95% of it.

[ComradeMan]

in response to the OP...

That's not answering the question I was asking....

[Sasha]

it is, as that is what i would say to the families of the victims "i understand that you are hurt but this is the question you should ask your government; why is the occupation so much more important to you than the lives of my loved ones?", that is the question they should demand answers too and they have every right to have that answered, anything else is meaningless.
the palistinans have very understandable reasons to turn to terrorism, the israeli government have shown they value over a 1000 Palestinians for one Israeli and only those who have a invested interest in continuing the path of terrorism and counter terrorism will benefit from a exchange that releases hundreds of streetlevel militants who want to kill more israeli civilians but that doesnt include the exact leaders who could keep these militants in check and could help bring peace about.
Perez promised to pardon Barghouti if ellected, yet now he is he not only refused to pardon, he even refuses to exchange him.
What would you say to the families? and then not only the families of the israeli civilians killed by the militants to be released but also to the family of Gilad Shalit and all of them that are family of those that will be killed in consequence of the refusal to release these two leaders. What would you say to to them?

[ComradeMan]

it is, as that is what i would say to the families of the victims "i understand that you are hurt but this is the question you should ask your government; why is the occupation so much more important to you than the lives of my loved ones?"

How would you feel?

Why should someone who is responsible for an attack that leaves children and teenagers killed walk free? Those children and teenagers are not occupiers, soldiers, politicians.... they do not make the decisions...


the palistinans have very understandable reasons to turn to terrorism, the israeli government have shown they value over a 1000 Palestinians for one

Does it help their cause in the long run?

I thought marxists et al, ideologically do not support terrorism.

[Sasha]

Why should someone who is responsible for an attack that leaves children and teenagers killed walk free? Those children and teenagers are not occupiers, soldiers, politicians.... they do not make the decisions...

you believe that the only people responsible for the death of those children and teenagers are the people who directly organized the attack?
would your blame be just be so narrow if would be talking here about civilian victims of an irgun or partisan attack?
refusing to engage the root cause of Palestinian terrorism, the occupation, is adding insult to injury for the victims families.



Does it help their cause in the long run?not directly, did the armed campaing of the ANC bring them victory? also not but it was an necessary cog in the process that brought the apartheid regime to the negotiation table and as such i understand why they took up arms even at times crossing into terrorism.



I thought marxists et al, ideologically do not support terrorism.i dont, understanding is not the same as supporting, a materialist analysis shows us why it happens, and give us a understanding of the root causes that need to be removed to stop the terrorism.
lets face it, if Martin McGuiness was in jail instead of the northen irish deputy prime minister a lot more people would still be killed daily in NI and a lot of lives have been saved by the good friday agreements he helped broker, but also a lot of "killers" have been released under that same agreement.
individual personal revenge feelings have often no place in deciding what is right to do.

[~Spectre]

Q:


why does the israeli goverment rather release hundreds of militants who probably upon release jump back in to continue the pointless (but understandable) killing of civilians than release the two that could help stop it? thats the question the israeli population should get very angry about...


A:Because this accomplishes three things.

1) Strengthening Hamas at this stage undermines Abbas. Hamas opposed the latest UN campaign, and making them seem like they can get things done, undermines Abbas domestically.

2) Can help remove pressure on Israel internationally. "Oh look, they released a LOT of people, they're serious about peace."

3) Because if one of these people attacks Israel (or if Hamas is emboldened to try to get another soldier), then Israel can use the attack to end domestic unrest by getting Israelis to rally around the flag. They're facing a lot of domestic unrest. Can also help with international PR.

[danyboy27]

Israel has agreed to release 1027 prisoners in an exchange deal for the hostage soldier Gilad Shalit.

However apprximately 280 of these prisoners are on murder convictions according to the wiki source.

What would you say to the families of the victims?

It's a difficult choice, but Israel is also trying to save the life of an Israeli soldier too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israel-Hamas_prisoner_exchange

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/mess-report/israel-and-hamas-are-both-winners-and-losers-in-shalit-swap-deal-1.389472

Among those to be relased there are those who were found guilty of being involved with the attack on the No.37 Haifa bus killing 17 people, mostly kids and teenagers, and injuring 53 other people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israel-Hamas_prisoner_exchange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=241857

This exchange is pure opportunistic bullshit, The israeli governement is feeling the heat with all those protests and now they want to distract the population.

Think about it, its not like the israeli prisons are in shortage of palestinian they can trade for this guy.

Personally, i dont think its really that serious that members of terror organisations are to be released in the palestinian territories, the palestinians didnt ran out of desesperate angry people willing to sacrifice their lives beccause a verry small sample of these peoples where jailed in israel, it didnt changed much anyway.

And the cycle will continue, israeli forces will keep on arresting a shitload of people, and palestinian will keep on abducting israeli soldier.

[Sasha]

1) Strengthening Hamas at this stage undermines Abbas. Hamas opposed the latest UN campaign, and making them seem like they can get things done, undermines Abbas domestically.


i know thats in a way one of the the reasons, i dont think they really want to strengthen hamas but they sure as hell do not want to be maneuvered in a position where they have to make real concessions in equal negotiations with an Palestinian mandela.
hence:
only those who have a invested interest in continuing the path of terrorism and counter terrorism will benefit from a exchange that releases hundreds of streetlevel militants who want to kill more israeli civilians but that doesnt include the exact leaders who could keep these militants in check and could help bring peace about.

releasing Barghouti will also undermine Abbas but than not in favor of continuing inter Palestinian strive, the path of terrorism and corruption but instead towards an united viable independent palestinian state.

a more interesting question than why the israeli government refuses to release these people (to which the answers are painfully obvious)but to why the Hamas leadership included the release of Barghouti and Sa'adat as part of their demands.
it seems that contrary to what israel likes to proclaim an significant part of the Hamas leadership is still ready to embrace the P.P.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Prisoners%27_Document) and step away from their "destruction of israel" charter

[ComradeMan]

This exchange is pure opportunistic bullshit, The israeli governement is feeling the heat with all those protests and now they want to distract the population.
Over the last 30 years, Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) has released about 7,000 Palestinian prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners) to secure freedom for 19 Israelis and to retrieve the bodies of eight others. A number of diplomatic efforts have been made to secure the release of Israeli IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces) personnel following their capture by enemy forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_prisoner_exchanges

...refusing to engage the root cause of Palestinian terrorism, the occupation, is adding insult to injury for the victims families.
It still doesn't exhonerate the perpetrators. I am sure the victims' families are fully aware of the geo-political conflict in the region.
We're not talking about Northern Ireland or South Africa- so let's now start destracting ourselves from this issue. Intellectualising and talking in abstraction is a good way to avoid the issue.

How would you feel if your child had been killed in a terrorist attack and the perpetrator walked free?

[Sasha]

feel like responding to our posts in earnest or was this just a flame thread by an increasingly more painfully philo-semite? because then we can just close it already...

[ComradeMan]

feel like responding to my arguments or was this just a flame thread by an increasingly more painfully philo-semite because then we can just close it already...

Feel like responding directly to my question in the OP that considering the actual, real, human cost on the ground of human beings in a conflict?

The question was simple enough.

What's philo-semite got to do with anything? Or do you have to resort to veiled ad hominems because you haven't got an argument? :)

[~Spectre]

Intellectualising and talking in abstraction is a good way to avoid the issue.


"In every bit of honest writing in the world there is a base theme. Try to understand men, if you understand each other you will be kind to each other. Knowing a man well never leads to hate and nearly always leads to love. There are shorter means, many of them. There is writing promoting social change, writing punishing injustice, writing in celebration of heroism, but always that base theme. Try to understand each other."
— John Steinbeck

[ComradeMan]

"In every bit of honest writing in the world there is a base theme. Try to understand men, if you understand each other you will be kind to each other. Knowing a man well never leads to hate and nearly always leads to love. There are shorter means, many of them. There is writing promoting social change, writing punishing injustice, writing in celebration of heroism, but always that base theme. Try to understand each other."
— John Steinbeck

And the best way to understand each other is to answer straight questions with straight answers.

[Sasha]

individual personal revenge feelings have often no place in deciding what is right to do.

missed that?

[~Spectre]

And the best way to understand each other is to answer straight questions with straight answers.

You were complaining about the argument being "intellectualized". That's seems like a silly complaint. Understanding things involves thinking about things, not just rushing back to an appeal to emotions (THINK OF TEH FAMILIES!!!).

Your question isn't really answerable, nor relevant. How would someone feel? How the fuck should he know? Not all families of murder victims react the same way. It's low and pathetic of you to hide behind these families and use their pain for political cheap shots.

Finally, it's irrelevant. Legal systems don't treat murder as a crime against the family, they treat it as a crime against the state. It's one of the big signs of progress back from medival and tribal society. In some countries, they still have a "what does the family think" justice system. You might know them by names such as "Saudi Arabia". Not quite what you want to aspire to.

[Robert]

CM, I admire you for persisting in the hope that a leftist anywhere on this board will have anything but hatred of everything Israeli.

[~Spectre]

CM, I admire you for persisting in the hope that a leftist anywhere on this board will have anything but hatred of everything Israeli.

He's the one saying Israel was wrong to release people.

[Sasha]

We're not talking about Northern Ireland or South Africa- so let's now start destracting ourselves from this issue

o.k. like i already asked in a way, should the british not have negotiated with the Palestinian jews based on the Lehi and Irgun terrorism?

[Zealot]

Why do you feel the need to completely bypass the material conditions of the attacks and jump straight to an emotional appeal? We condemn it, but we understand why it happened, whereas you seem to skip over decades of history and scream "Think of the families!". Like a slave killing his slave master, just because it was an atrocity doesn't mean we get to skip over historical facts. But that's what is happening here. People in desperation will turn to terrorism and if you don't understand that then you're an idealist of the highest order.

[~Spectre]

Why do you feel the need to completely bypass the material conditions of the attacks and jump straight to an emotional appeal?

American war mongers react the same way with 9/11. "FUCK FACTS!! JUST FEEL ENRAGED AND VENGEFUL!!"

[ComradeMan]

He's the one saying Israel was wrong to release people.
Where did I say that? Did you read the OP? I said it was a difficult choice for Israel. My question, is what about the victims' families? And for general information I would say the same if it were the other way round too.

However in my own opinion, someone who deliberately kills innocent people, especially children, is not a political prisoner, they're just criminals- it's never justified.

Why do you feel the need to completely bypass the material conditions of the attacks and jump straight to an emotional appeal? We condemn it, but we understand why it happened, whereas you seem to skip over decades of history and scream "Think of the families!".
I haven't seen much condemning going on to be honest but anyway. Why do you feel you need to bypass the outcomes completely to avoid dealing with the consequences?

Like a slave killing his slave master, just because it was an atrocity doesn't mean we get to skip over historical facts. But that's what is happening here. People in desperation will turn to terrorism and if you don't understand that then you're an idealist of the highest order.
Now, were those victims directly responsible for oppression of Palestinians? So were the victims the "masters" in your analogy?

o.k. like i already asked in a way, should the british not have negotiated with the Palestinian jews based on the Lehi and Irgun terrorism?
No. I am not against Israel negotiating with the Palestinians- especially if that negotiation can bring a long-lasting peace and stability- but at the same time are these people true representatives of the Palestinians in any way shape or form the Irgun and Lehi were also condemned by the mainstream Palestinian Jews of the time.

Grand-politics and the great game etc are fine... it doesn't bring back the innocent victims.

[danyboy27]

Over the last 30 years, Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) has released about 7,000 Palestinian prisoners (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners) to secure freedom for 19 Israelis and to retrieve the bodies of eight others. A number of diplomatic efforts have been made to secure the release of Israeli IDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces) personnel following their capture by enemy forces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_prisoner_exchanges

Yes, they do that verry often, so?

also why are you not responding to the rest of my last post?

[~Spectre]

Where did I say that? Did you read the OP? I said it was a difficult choice for Israel.

it's never justified.


Those are your own words. Either it's never justified, or its grey. It can't be both.


My question, is what about the victims' families?

Unless the victims families post on revleft, the question is again silly.

[tir1944]

Among those exchanged prisoners was a Pal. woman who seduced/lured some Jew to come to the Palestinian "area" so that Hamas could kindnap him and slit his throat...

[ComradeMan]

Those are your own words. Either it's never justified, or its grey. It can't be both.

Did you read the OP? FFS!


It's a difficult choice,

"Amnesties" are not necessarily justifications- if you can even call this an amnesty, but anyway....


Unless the victims families post on revleft, the question is again silly.

Well you could say that about probably 90% of most of what is posted on RevLeft- the point is to discuss.

[~Spectre]

Among those exchanged prisoners was a Pal. woman who seduced/lured some Jew to come to the Palestinian "area" so that Hamas could kindnap him and slit his throat...

Why do you put quotation marks around the word area, and why do you say Jew instead of Israeli? Also what's your verification for what this woman allegedly did?

[~Spectre]

Did you read the OP? FFS!

I did. Apparently you didn't. You said it's a tough choice. But then you said it's never justifiable. Are you Jekyll or are you Hyde at the moment?



Well you could say that about probably 90% of most of what is posted on RevLeft- the point is to discuss.
And I repeat:
"Your question isn't really answerable, nor relevant. How would someone feel? How the fuck should he know? Not all families of murder victims react the same way. It's low and pathetic of you to hide behind these families and use their pain for political cheap shots.

Finally, it's irrelevant. Legal systems don't treat murder as a crime against the family, they treat it as a crime against the state. It's one of the big signs of progress back from medival and tribal society. In some countries, they still have a "what does the family think" justice system. You might know them by names such as "Saudi Arabia". Not quite what you want to aspire to."

[ComradeMan]

I did. Apparently you didn't. You said it's a tough choice. But then you said it's never justifiable. Are you Jekyll or are you Hyde at the moment?

Can you read? I said it was a difficult choice for Israel. I said deliberately killing innocent people, especially children was never justified. The prisoners that are being released are hardly being given a pat on the back are they?


Finally, it's irrelevant. Legal systems don't treat murder as a crime against the family, they treat it as a crime against the state. It's one of the big signs of progress back from medival and tribal society. In some countries, they still have a "what does the family think" justice system. You might know them by names such as "Saudi Arabia". Not quite what you want to aspire to."

And....err.... wtf has that got to do with anything? There was no legal definition of genocide until 1948, so I suppose all of those previous acts of genocide don't count anymore.... Seriously, wtf are you blabbing about?

Do you deny that these kinds of things have not the slightest influence on people, might affect the way they vote, who they choose to govern and what their political attitude might be? :rolleyes:

[~Spectre]

Can you read? I said it was a difficult choice for Israel. I said deliberately killing innocent people, especially children was never justified. The prisoners that are being released are hardly being given a pat on the back are they?



And....err.... wtf has that got to do with anything? There was no legal definition of genocide until 1948, so I suppose all of those previous acts of genocide don't count anymore.... Seriously, wtf are you blabbing about?

Do you deny that these kinds of things have not the slightest influence on people, might affect the way they vote, who they choose to govern and what their political attitude might be? :rolleyes:

I've stared at this post for over a minute and I still can't decide whether I'm being trolled or not.

[tir1944]

Why do you put quotation marks around the word area
I don't know the official name.



and why do you say Jew instead of Israeli?

Because he was Jewish and not all Israelis are Jews.

[~Spectre]

I don't know the official name.


Because he was Jewish and not all Israelis are Jews.

And not all Jews are Israelis, in fact most aren't.

When an American gets killed by an insurgent group in Iraq, we don't say that they "lured the christian into their area and killed him", despite the fact that he might be christian, and not all Americans are christian.

[Dean]

Israel has agreed to release 1027 prisoners in an exchange deal for the hostage soldier Gilad Shalit.

However apprximately 280 of these prisoners are on murder convictions according to the wiki source.

What would you say to the families of the victims?

It's a difficult choice, but Israel is also trying to save the life of an Israeli soldier too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israel-Hamas_prisoner_exchange

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/mess-report/israel-and-hamas-are-both-winners-and-losers-in-shalit-swap-deal-1.389472

Among those to be relased there are those who were found guilty of being involved with the attack on the No.37 Haifa bus killing 17 people, mostly kids and teenagers, and injuring 53 other people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Israel-Hamas_prisoner_exchange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=241857

How many of these "murder charges" stem from attempted conviction of military personnel or militants?

How many Israelis are imprisoned by the PA for murders? Israeli attacks on civilians account for far more deaths, and possibly suspects, than Palestinian attacks on civilians.

The Pal/Israel conflict of power has nothing to do with a regard for civilian life. Attempting to make it such will only work when it benefits the ruling class, which means that your argument is only viable against Palestinian suspects. The fact that you describe an Israeli military captive as a "hostage" only betrays your purchase into this race-warrior paradigm.

[tir1944]

When an American gets killed by an insurgent group in Iraq, we don't say that they "lured the christian into their area and killed him", despite the fact that he might be christian, and not all Americans are christian.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ofir_Rahum

[Dean]

And....err.... wtf has that got to do with anything? There was no legal definition of genocide until 1948, so I suppose all of those previous acts of genocide don't count anymore.... Seriously, wtf are you blabbing about?

Ah, yes, and apartheid didn't exist until the UN acknowledged it, either.

[~Spectre]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ofir_Rahum

What was the point of that link? They refer to him as an Israeli, not a Jew.

[JFB.anon]

I am a leftist who has nothing but hatred of everything Israeli, I am stupid and completely unfounded in my opinions.

[ComradeMan]

Ah, yes, and apartheid didn't exist until the UN acknowledged it, either.
Not really true. "Apartheid" was the official segregation policy/policies of the South African government post-1948- who also acknowledged these as their policies. :rolleyes: I believe the word was first used politically circa 1943 whereas the UN GA only "defined" it in 1973.

How many of these "murder charges" stem from attempted conviction of military personnel or militants?
How many don't though- especially the more "notorious" ones involving suicide attacks?

How many Israelis are imprisoned by the PA for murders? Israeli attacks on civilians account for far more deaths, and possibly suspects, than Palestinian attacks on civilians.
Tu quoque arguments here. Does Israel deliberately attack civilians? Or do organisations such as Hamas also use people as human shields too?

The Pal/Israel conflict of power has nothing to do with a regard for civilian life.
Does any conflict? That's why I am not a big supporter of conflicts to be honest.

Attempting to make it such will only work when it benefits the ruling class, which means that your argument is only viable against Palestinian suspects.
Err on that basis when settlers do something violent to Palestinians the people who would be morally outraged should say nothing?

The fact that you describe an Israeli military captive as a "hostage" only betrays your purchase into this race-warrior paradigm.
A hostage is usually a person who is held captive in a conflict pending negotiated terms with the other side in the conflict and usually against their will, i.e. by force. In what way is the person in question not a hostage?

Nice strawman attempt and brilliiant unspeak.... ;)

[RGacky3]

I am a leftist who has nothing but hatred of everything Israeli, I am stupid and completely unfounded in my opinions.


Your obviously someone that does'nt actually read, you kind of have to read to understand what people are talking about here.

BTW, leftists in Israel are some of the strongest supporters of palestinian liberation, but you would'nt know that would you, because you don't read, and you don't understand arugments.

[Che a chara]

It was interesting to hear Gilad Shalit say in his interview that he supports the release of all Palestinian prisoners when asked if he would campaign for their release considering he has experience of what it was like to be held.

[Wanted Man]

ComradeMan's big question is kind of pointless. You can ask it in just about any situation: how would YOU feel if...? It only matters to some extent. Clearly, in Israel they decided that the feelings surrounding Gilad Shalit's return were more important than the feelings of the families of their war casualties. It is quite difficult to consider everyone's feelings, doubly so when you have a system that thrives on exploitation, and within that, you have an occupation that depends on oppressing another population while maintaining a constant siege mentality within your own. Within that context, apparently they preferred the propaganda value of Israel "always recovering their POWs".

So asking "how would you feel" is pretty useless. To quote some internet crackpot, "How would you feel if a million Soviet troops stormed your Reich capital?" In all forms of policymaking (and again, doubly so in the context of capitalism, and even worse in a situation like Israel/Palestine), politicians routinely disregard feelings of individuals for some perceived greater good. I'm sure it would cause the bosses considerable personal distress to be expropriated, and I'm sure that there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis who have nightmares about the idea that Palestinians can live as their neighbours with equal rights, and yet both have to be done.

And it's even 10 times as pointless here because this is just ComradeMan wanting to draw attention to his shitty Zionist politics, but that's no big news.

[ComradeMan]

ComradeMan's big question is kind of pointless. You can ask it in just about any situation: how would YOU feel if...? It only matters to some extent.

Why is it pointless to take how people on the ground feel into consideration? Conflicts are not just statistics, facts, percentages or propaganda posters and slogans- there are human issues at stake. By your argument we could equally ignore the way Palestinians and/or some Arab-Israelis feel and concentrate only on the harsh reality that Arab-Israelis, in material terms, are better off in Israel- but we don't.

The secondary point was also to look at what and who people feel to be a "poltical prisoner" constitutes.


So asking "how would you feel" is pretty useless. To quote some internet crackpot, "How would you feel if a million Soviet troops stormed your Reich capital?"

Strawman. On your basis all the talk of the proletariat being exploited and discontent and the unfairness of capitalism flies out of the door too...


In all forms of policymaking (and again, doubly so in the context of capitalism, and even worse in a situation like Israel/Palestine), politicians routinely disregard feelings of individuals for some perceived greater good.

And that's something you support? :confused:


Iand it's even 10 times as pointless here because this is just ComradeMan wanting to draw attention to his shitty Zionist politics, but that's no big news.

You're being pathetic.

[RGacky3]

Strawman. On your basis all the talk of the proletariat being exploited and discontent and the unfairness of capitalism flies out of the door too...


No, becaues its in context.