Debate and argue about everything!

[Threetune]

The slogan, program and demand is:

Hide nothing! Debate and argue about everything!


‘DEBATE ABSOLUTLY EVERYTHING OUT IN THE OPEN IN FULL VIEW OF US, THE WORKING CLASSES.’


Dire economic signals confirm the “credit crunch” of 2008 was just the beginning of the greatest meltdown crisis in capitalist history. The world is facing a catastrophe of unprecedented proportions leading inexorably to fascist dictatorship and world war chaos in EVERY country as the ruling class fights vicious class war to hold its power. The only answer is revolution demanding the greatest struggle foe Marxist Leninist clarity against class colluding reformism, anti-communist Trotskyism and Stalinist pacifism.

Repeated confirmation of the catastrophic failure of capitalism are coming so thick and fast that the world is dizzy. The grasp that the private profit system is heading for terrifying slump chaos and inevitable inter-imperialist war upheaval can no longer be mocked as “exaggerated catastrophist” and “hysterical overstatement.”

The ruling class is shattered by fear of potential uprisings and turmoil that its epochal failure and incompetence is producing, already breaking out throughout the world from Chile to Thailand, Cairo to Riyadh and right into the major capitalist heartland, in athens Madrid London and New York’s Wall street.

But while spontaneous rebellion is bubbling and a mass of doubts, uncertainties and confused fears are being voiced from all sides by disquieted petty bourgeois commentators, the ranks of fake-“lefts” Still have come nowhere near to giving the working class the lead it requires, and even more urgently than ever now.

Part one end.

[Spets]

WOKIMNG CLASSES.

Go on...

[Threetune]

Part two.

All-out class war to the end, to destroy the old society and rebuild a new world is precisely what the fake-"left" is not preparing the working class for.

But it is the only possible way out of an historic meltdown which daily threatens all mankind with deadly destruction one hundred times greater than ever seen before.

Revolution is confronting everyone, to end capitalism and establish planned socialist production, using the world's resources sanely, reasonably and cooperatively to provide a rich fulfilling and rational life for all seven billion humans on the planet (easily achievable and the more so as the genius and strength of those billions is unlocked from the imposed ignorance, poverty and deprivation of endless imperialist exploitation).


But instead of making this issue central, everything from bemused “transitional programs”, class collaboration and outright opportunist arse-licking are pumped out in giant slabs of yet more "democracy" illusions (voiced by anarchism as shallow "anti-dictator" philistinism and anti-communist anti-workers state hatred from the petty bourgeois "peaceful road" and "containment of capitalism", "Stop the War" "peace-struggle" from the old revisionists, be they "Euro-style" or allegedly "hard" Stalinists, the Greek CP or revisionist workers states like Beijing, Cuba and Vietnam).

Not a scrap of decades of mighty posturing "revolutionism" from all shades of the "left" swamp has translated into any kind of understanding of what is now happening, let alone guidance for the working class on the historic revolutionary challenges they are confronted with, to end this foul and degenerate capitalist order which cannot but accelerate in to the greatest whirlpool failure ever.
When even the governor of the Bank of England – the absolute heart of "moneybags" finance capitalism and power – says that the economic crisis is not just as bad as the 1930s but possibly the worst in history it is surely time to draw revolutionary conclusions.

It was not supposed to be like this according to the reformist perspectives, constantly bolstered by the whole gamut of "lefts", which the Leninist understanding has constantly challenged and exposed.
There is no "steady improvement" in conditions and living standards as more than one hundred years of fake-"left" "democratic-way" reformism has misled the working class.

Instead the Marxist science of complete economic and societal breakdown is being confirmed and re-confirmed hourly as the economies of entire countries are wiped out, giant banks and whole groups of banks teeter on the edge of disaster, world currencies implode and the dealings on the Stock Exchanges look ever more like a rodeo ride on an untamed bronco, shaking the world trading system violently towards complete disintegration.
And how did the world recover from the devastating and desperate Slump of the 1930s??
Through the most dread-filled and destructive world war aggression and chaos ever witnessed in history, the only means the profit system knows as a way out, while hanging onto its sweet power and luxury.

That is to destroy the vast "over-capacity" and "excess production" that had inexorably clogged the entire profit-making production system solid, as Marx long ago explained was inevitable (see economics box page 6).
Whole countries were wiped out in the process, with nearly 100 million people killed amid the utmost fascist depravity and terror, scarring and bereaving many times more than that and leaving them destitute, distraught and damaged for a lifetime.

The world was so shocked and stunned by the horrors of the two great wars (1914-18 and 1939-45) that it had to be fed the illusions that it "must never happen again".
But the deliberate path towards just such devastating war once more is now 15 years down the line, from the disgusting, bullying, blitzing of once-communist Yugoslavia, through the scorched and blasted civilian slaughter of Iraq and the ten-year Afghanistan destruction to the latest foul devastation and civilian slaughter in Libya.

It is culminating in the current NATO atrocities against Sirte where an entire city of 100 000 people is being killed, starved, besieged or driven from their bombed and blasted homes by the fascist counter-revolutionary "rebel" scum, backed by NATO "sorties" and all under the laughable pretence of "protecting civilians" (and doing exactly what the lying Goebbels propaganda had falsely alleged against Gaddafi as an ostensibly war crime monstrosity).

Fascist onslaught by "our boys" (be they US marines or British, French, or other squaddies) abroad and escalating police state viciousness at home to impose the Slump (by kettling Wall street protesters, rendering and torturing in Guantánamo or secret bases worldwide, beating demonstrators or imposing savage prison sentences for "disobedience", "riot" and protest on students and deprived youth) are the twin faces of a slide into a new Nazi "normality" to get the ruling class through this greatest ever crisis.

The sheer chutzpah of the open cynicism of this depraved mayhem in Libya currently, gravely and ponderously reported as a "fight for freedom" by the major media outlets without cracking their faces at all, would have shamed the Nazi propaganda department in Berlin for not going far enough.

But not one iota of this terrifying plunge of the world into complete fascist disaster and bloody mayhem informs the fake-"lefts" and their analyses, speeches and stories.

Of course they fill their papers with talk of Marx's "crisis" and economic meltdown or have done since it became glaringly obvious in 2008, though even then such reports are nitpickingly academic, agnostic (is it really a crisis?, the Weekly Worker still asks) and "theoretical" in the worst, "not-really-for-the-day-to-day" sense that British backward pragmatism has always sunk to.

But they are always disconnected from other stories like Syria, Libya, or the Slump cuts with not the slightest grasp present that all these events are part of the greatest and most overwhelming contradiction of all human history, reaching explosion point and demanding the greatest transformation of all time.

The old world is rotten ripe for change.

End of part two

[tir1944]

Well thank god for Revleft,we debate and argue about everything every day...
:tt2:

[Agent Equality]

THE WOKIMNG CLASSES.

I'm sorry but I can't get passed this. 3 lines in and I don't even care to read the rest. All I can read is this

[Threetune]

Well thank god for Revleft,we debate and argue about everything every day...
:tt2:

Yes you do argue about everything and you argue about everything separately, disconnectedly and for the most part confusedly without any perspective or mention of the need for workers to discuss building workers states as the ONLY answer to the vicious chaos of capitalist dictatorship.

[Threetune]

I'm sorry but I can't get passed this. 3 lines in and I don't even care to read the rest. All I can read is this

Sorry you are so offended, would you read the rest if I corrected the spelling? Would it make any difference to the political argument ?

[Blackscare]

IMO, it's too long and rambly, filled with self-referential remarks about "fake" lefts that nobody has fucking heard of anyway, obscure and outdated marxist jargon like "petite-bourgeois", and generally just far too much too soon. A class consciousness among parts of the working class is just beginning to really take shape and you're already talking about class war and assume people will know the nuances of tired and obscure sectarian infighting (which is especially unhelpful because it seems to just be generalized venom which can only really encourage a hostile atmosphere for no good reason).


It's like you're trying to encapsulate the last 100 years of Marxist analysis in a pamphlet and it doesn't across as something that would be of particular interest or use to someone reading it on the street. Contemporary, relevant examples of the most basic Marxist theories would probably work better. This pamphlet to me is an example of the typically ham-handed approach to "agitation" many modern leftists take. I'm sorry, but just because a bunch of people got together does not mean that people are going to be immediately receptive to the idea of the forceful and complete overthrow of their government. That's not how it has ever happened in history and this won't be the first time. Struggle builds and gains focus incrementally (sometimes faster or slower). Try to rush it and I feel you'll probably just alienate people. Thinking that simply because you are a communist you cannot possibly tailor your message to your audience is silly. Acknowledging that at a certain point you need to focus your message on the core principles so that later, as your ideas gain traction, you can expand to suit a more receptive audience is not selling out, it's the intelligent thing to do.

[Blackscare]

Oh god, I skimmed over it a bit but it seems that your sectarian shit is directed at some particular groups. Listen man this shit is not going to accomplish anything, I'm sorry but in the first paragraph you're talking about world war and fascism and how much trots suck. They're going to get as far as fascism/world war bit and be like "oh look at this, I got a crazy person pamphlet", and if not they'll get to the end of the first paragraph and say "who the fuck cares about why this guy hates some people I've never heard of" and throw it away.


Condensing your entire ideology into two pamphlets is just dumb, sorry.


[EDIT]

There's also a lot of superfluous and tiresome vocabulary that should go, it doesn't make it sound more intelligent or poignant if you overdo it that much. Not trying to be a dick here, but I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time handing out crap that people won't take seriously, which in all honesty is what I think this is. I'd make it shorter, more to the point, and drop the historical baggage.

Sectarianism of this magnitude, just trotted out on a whim (as opposed to the airing of differences when they become an issue) has been the hobby on the left (seemingly more so in the US) for decades, mostly because we've had nothing else to do. Wasting your breath and ink on this sort of crap is, if anything, a disservice to the working class who simply don't have the time or patience to "finally" weigh in on your decades-long squabbles and validate your particular sect's position. Nobody gives a fuck.

[Threetune]

Oh god, I skimmed over it a bit but it seems that your sectarian shit is directed at some particular groups. Listen man this shit is not going to accomplish anything, I'm sorry but in the first paragraph you're talking about world war and fascism and how much trots suck. They're going to get as far as fascism/world war bit and be like "oh look at this, I got a crazy person pamphlet", and if not they'll get to the end of the first paragraph and say "who the fuck cares about why this guy hates some people I've never heard of" and throw it away.


Condensing your entire ideology into two pamphlets is just dumb, sorry.


[EDIT]

There's also a lot of superfluous and tiresome vocabulary that should go, it doesn't make it sound more intelligent or poignant if you overdo it that much. Not trying to be a dick here, but I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time handing out crap that people won't take seriously, which in all honesty is what I think this is. I'd make it shorter, more to the point, and drop the historical baggage.

Sectarianism of this magnitude, just trotted out on a whim (as opposed to the airing of differences when they become an issue) has been the hobby on the left (seemingly more so in the US) for decades, mostly because we've had nothing else to do. Wasting your breath and ink on this sort of crap is, if anything, a disservice to the working class who simply don't have the time or patience to "finally" weigh in on your decades-long squabbles and validate your particular sect's position. Nobody gives a fuck.

Your advice on editing and claiming to know what workers think and understand is in fact a cover for having zero revolutionary perspectives. You hide behind criticisms of ‘form’ and ‘style’ to avoid discussion of the ‘content’ which is what you really can’t cope with. Pathetic.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Blackscare makes an important point when he says that you cannot simply take a group of people who have come together to protest, and presume that immediately they will be receptive to the idea of the overthrow of their government.

I despise Mao, but one can paraphrase him and correctly say that class war - true class war - is not a dinner party. It doesn't happen after one, two or ten protests, it doesn't happen in 6, 12 or 24 months. Revolution in itself is a process, not an event, and that is something that the 'intellectual' wing of the movement should understand, before trying to force its own thought-out views onto people who are really protesting about issues of bread and water.

In short, one must come back to Luxemburg's classic pamphlet, The Mass Strike, and take away the still-valid lesson that the political struggle will grow out of the economic struggle, and vice versa. One cannot win revolution only by political struggles alone. We have to interact with those taking part in economic struggles and educate them, not preach to them about some bullshit tendency sectarianism that has its roots in some obscure crap that happened decades ago.

If we really want to see movements like 'we are the 99%' and its offspring grow into genuine mass, radical, self-led processes that have revolutionary energy, then we have to be willing to educate, educate, educate, rather than (attempt to) agitate and organise the working class in the way we personally envision it should be done.

[Threetune]

Blackscare makes an important point when he says that you cannot simply take a group of people who have come together to protest, and presume that immediately they will be receptive to the idea of the overthrow of their government.

I despise Mao, but one can paraphrase him and correctly say that class war - true class war - is not a dinner party. It doesn't happen after one, two or ten protests, it doesn't happen in 6, 12 or 24 months. Revolution in itself is a process, not an event, and that is something that the 'intellectual' wing of the movement should understand, before trying to force its own thought-out views onto people who are really protesting about issues of bread and water.

In short, one must come back to Luxemburg's classic pamphlet, The Mass Strike, and take away the still-valid lesson that the political struggle will grow out of the economic struggle, and vice versa. One cannot win revolution only by political struggles alone. We have to interact with those taking part in economic struggles and educate them, not preach to them about some bullshit tendency sectarianism that has its roots in some obscure crap that happened decades ago.

If we really want to see movements like 'we are the 99%' and its offspring grow into genuine mass, radical, self-led processes that have revolutionary energy, then we have to be willing to educate, educate, educate, rather than (attempt to) agitate and organise the working class in the way we personally envision it should be done.

“educate, educate, educate”, about what? The only thing you are educating about is ‘DON’ T TALK ABOUT REVOLUTION’ and ‘SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT WORKING CLASS POWER!

That is the job of the fake ‘lefts’.

Just when the economic crisis conditions of capitalism start to provoke spontainious internationally coordinated protest against almost every aspect of the system, the banks, governments, unemployment, war, health care, corruption, pensions robbery, education discrimination etc, etc, up pop the ‘lefts’ telling everyone that they must 'back off' because they are allegedly not “educated” enough . Patronising condescending shite.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's not patronising or condescending to talk to people at their own level of class consciousness. That doesn't suggest that we are more intellectual than them, it merely suggests that we are already converts to Socialism, whereas many protesters, even in political struggles (as I experienced in the tuition fee protests) are not converts to revolutionary Socialism, so you cannot expect those participating in economic struggles to be wholly receptive to a torrent of new revolutionary ideas.

I don't really know what you mean by 'fake lefts'. If you want to talk about the left-right scale then I, as a non-Leninist, am technically farther left than you, as a Leninist, are. And if that sounds ridiculous and petty then it is, but that is the level you stoop to when you declare Leninism to be the only true ideology and invoke this crass 'fake left' sectarianism.

[Threetune]

Oh god, I skimmed over it a bit but it seems that your sectarian shit is directed at some particular groups. Listen man this shit is not going to accomplish anything, I'm sorry but in the first paragraph you're talking about world war and fascism and how much trots suck. They're going to get as far as fascism/world war bit and be like "oh look at this, I got a crazy person pamphlet", and if not they'll get to the end of the first paragraph and say "who the fuck cares about why this guy hates some people I've never heard of" and throw it away.


Condensing your entire ideology into two pamphlets is just dumb, sorry.


[EDIT]

There's also a lot of superfluous and tiresome vocabulary that should go, it doesn't make it sound more intelligent or poignant if you overdo it that much. Not trying to be a dick here, but I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time handing out crap that people won't take seriously, which in all honesty is what I think this is. I'd make it shorter, more to the point, and drop the historical baggage.

Sectarianism of this magnitude, just trotted out on a whim (as opposed to the airing of differences when they become an issue) has been the hobby on the left (seemingly more so in the US) for decades, mostly because we've had nothing else to do. Wasting your breath and ink on this sort of crap is, if anything, a disservice to the working class who simply don't have the time or patience to "finally" weigh in on your decades-long squabbles and validate your particular sect's position. Nobody gives a fuck.

In other words, ‘let’s tell lies because we don’t want to talk about working class power’, in front of the working class.
Or as Lenin brilliantly explained:

“It is often said and written that the main point in Marx's teachings is the class struggle; but this is not true.

And from this untruth very often springs the opportunist distortion of Marxism, its falsification in such a way as to make it acceptable to the bourgeoisie. For the doctrine of the class struggle was created not by Marx, but by the bourgeoisie before Marx, and generally speaking it is acceptable to the bourgeoisie.

Those who recognise only the class struggle are not yet Marxists; they may be found to be still within the boundaries of bourgeois thinking and bourgeois politics. To confine Marxism to the doctrine of the class struggle means curtailing Marxism, distorting it, reducing it to something which is acceptable to the bourgeoisie.

Only he is a Marxist who extends the recognition of the class struggle to the recognition of the dictatorship of the proletariat. This is what constitutes the most profound difference between the Marxist and the ordinary petty (as well as big) bourgeois. This is the touchstone on which the real understanding and recognition of Marxism is to be tested.

And it is not surprising that when the history of Europe brought the working class face to face with this question as a practical issue, not only all the opportunists and reformists, but all the "Kautskyites" (people who vacillate between reformism and Marxism) proved to be miserable philistines and petty-bourgeois democrats who repudiate the dictatorship of the proletariat.”
V I Lenin.


The working class will have to “face this question as a practical issue” in order to ‘solve its problem. The problem is capitalism, and the ‘lefts’ want to keep hanging on to their cosy perches within capitalism and that is why they want no talk about workers power in front of the working class. That is why Blackscare tells us “I wouldn't want anyone to waste their time handing out crap that people won't take seriously,” . What’s his problem? Doesn’t he trust workers to make up their own minds?

[Threetune]

It's not patronising or condescending to talk to people at their own level of class consciousness. That doesn't suggest that we are more intellectual than them, it merely suggests that we are already converts to Socialism, whereas many protesters, even in political struggles (as I experienced in the tuition fee protests) are not converts to revolutionary Socialism, so you cannot expect those participating in economic struggles to be wholly receptive to a torrent of new revolutionary ideas.

I don't really know what you mean by 'fake lefts'. If you want to talk about the left-right scale then I, as a non-Leninist, am technically farther left than you, as a Leninist, are. And if that sounds ridiculous and petty then it is, but that is the level you stoop to when you declare Leninism to be the only true ideology and invoke this crass 'fake left' sectarianism.

How the hell do you know what “their own level of class consciousness” is or isn’t?


Go on explain. How do you go on a demonstration peppered with ‘lefts’ deliberately not saying anything about revolution or workers power and make an assessment about the class consciousness of the participants when that consciousness is being infected with non-revolutionary propaganda from the ’lefts’?


All you are saying is that workers are backward because you won’t tell them of the reason for your own claimed “conversion”. And what “torrent of new revolutionary ideas” will they get if you and the rest of the ‘left’ refuse to talk about it. Are you going to hang about until workers spontaneously demand the dictatorship of the proletariat and then courageously reveal that you were a true “convert” and a believer all along? Ridiculous.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I never said workers are backward. I explicitly said I was not saying this. I said that it is obviously the case that most workers currently engaged in economic struggles have a lower level of class consciousness than the organised left. If this was not true, then we would be at a revolutionary epoch, given the number of people who have been protesting in the past 12-18 months.

The key is a word I used above - protesting. People are protesting about job cuts, about bankers, about corrupt politicians. They are not staging extended mass strikes, nor wildcat strikes, nor setting up workers' councils to fight against Capitalism as a whole. You cannot simply hope to connect economic struggles and political struggles by preaching Lenin (or whatever you/I/we believe) at workers and expect them to be totally receptive and agreeable to your ideas. Indeed, as I said earlier, revolution is not a dinner party, nor a game, nor even an event. It's a process whose peak can be the result of years or even decades of revolutionary work. Of this revolutionary work, agitation is but one part of the process. A lot of time has to be invested with patience, in education, in setting up the right processes and groups - workers' councils, political sub-structures etc. - before a revolution can successfully culminate in the overthrow of Capitalism.

I've never said we should 'refuse to talk about revolution'. I just don't want to get to a stage (and i've been there before and it was embarassing, shameful and counter-productive, not to mention irrelevant) where we end up turning a mass of protesting energy that is potentially revolutionary, into an introverted group of irrelevant Socialists making demands that get ignored by all and sundry.

The Dictatorship of the Proletariat will be carried out by the working class, not by a special group of Lenin-fetishisers.

[Threetune]

I never said workers are backward. I explicitly said I was not saying this. I said that it is obviously the case that most workers currently engaged in economic struggles have a lower level of class consciousness than the organised left.

But you are even now saying precisely that workers are backward, politically consciously backward; at “a lower level” is what you say like every other ‘left’ snob who’s been “converted to socialism” as you describe yourself.


If this was not true, then we would be at a revolutionary epoch, given the number of people who have been protesting in the past 12-18 months.

We are in the greatest economic crisis that the capitalist system has ever experienced ever (official) and you say we are not in a “revolutionary epoch” because of the “low level of class consciousness as compared with the ‘lefts’. This is a clear case of blaming the working class for the idiocies and betrayals and of all the ‘lefts’ Labour, Trot, Stalinist, Maoist, and Anarchist


The key is a word I used above - protesting. People are protesting about job cuts, about bankers, about corrupt politicians. They are not staging extended mass strikes, nor wildcat strikes, nor setting up workers' councils to fight against Capitalism as a whole..


There will always be something that the workers aren’t doing that will give you an excuse not to talk about revolution and workers power. When the workers do anything you will always say they are ill prepared and always at a “lower level” than you ‘lefts’.



You cannot simply hope to connect economic struggles and political struggles by preaching Lenin (or whatever you/I/we believe) at workers and expect them to be totally receptive and agreeable to your ideas.

That’s just your nervousness and hesitation on display.


Indeed, as I said earlier, revolution is not a dinner party, nor a game, nor even an event. It's a process whose peak can be the result of years or even decades of revolutionary work. Of this revolutionary work, agitation is but one part of the process. A lot of time has to be invested with patience, in education, in setting up the right processes and groups - workers' councils, political sub-structures etc. - before a revolution can successfully culminate in the overthrow of Capitalism.

You can academically, abstractly say that revolutionary agitation is only part of the process, but you can’t tell us what kind of agitation we should engage in if it’s not about workers power and the destruction of the dictatorship of capitalism.


I've never said we should 'refuse to talk about revolution'. I just don't want to get to a stage (and i've been there before and it was embarassing, shameful and counter-productive, not to mention irrelevant) where we end up turning a mass of protesting energy that is potentially revolutionary, into an introverted group of irrelevant Socialists making demands that get ignored by all and sundry.

You are 'refusing to talk about revolution' because you say its “(…embarassing, shameful and counter-productive, not to mention irrelevant) ...”
How is it that in all human endeavour, plans are made and spoken about for years in advance? Even young children are given sex education long before they would be expected to engage in sexual activity. Young students plan and talk about their careers long before they have the requisite qualifications for the job. Modest engineering and building projects are planned decades before the land, money or other recourses are in place. How much more important and urgent then, that that the revolutionary seizure of power be discussed openly in the working class at a time when the capitalist system is now in its greatest crisis ever?



The Dictatorship of the Proletariat will be carried out by the working class, not by a special group of Lenin-fetishisers.
__________________
But socialist democracy is not something which begins only in the promised land after the foundations of socialist economy are created... Socialist democracy begins simultaneously with the beginnings of the destruction of class rule and of the construction of socialism. It begins at the very moment of the seizure of power by the socialist party. It is the same thing as the dictatorship of the proletariat.

- Rosa Luxemburg.

Ha, what a cheap hypocritical flourish, playing to the Revleft anti-communist gallery.
In the same breath your own ‘signature’ gives away your true elitist ambitions for your “special group” of ‘socialist party fetishists’ who would “seize power”, and not the workers, who you say have “lower level” of consciousness than you.
But you won’t say that in your “agitational” work will you? Why don’t you just ‘Debate and argue about everything in front of the working class’? We’ll make up their own minds without your censorship.

.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

So you think that by membership of the working class, one is automatically politically conscious (the highest level of class consciousness). I'm afraid that is plainly not true, you only need to get out there amongst members of the class to realise that. It's not their fault, it's not my fault. It's just how things are at this stage.

We are in a serious crisis of Capitalism, and the key word to use is that we are potentially at a revolutionary epoch, but clearly at this time we are not, else much of Europe would be on the cusp of revolution, right? It clearly is not, but there is certainly potential to build on.

I don't think you actually understand the nature of revolution. I've been part of a group that made the mistakes you are making now, and yes it made the group shameful, irrelevant and out of touch. You cannot insert a high-end political struggle into an economic struggle (the latter taking form in the majority of protests at the moment) simply by 'agitating, agitating, agitating' with your Lenin in hand. I imagine if you went round to various members of the working class tomorrow and quoted Lenin at them they'd think you're a complete bell-end who didn't understand their day-to-day struggles.

In order to connect economic struggles (against welfare cuts, job losses, privatisations etc.) with political struggles you need to build a mass movement, and only when you reach a critical mass of support and of revolutionary consciousness can you then talk about setting up workers' councils, replacing 'economist aims' with 'political demands' and so on. It really is pointless to talk of revolution coming tomorrow, on the back of a couple of small protests.

Revolution, as a process, is all about sustained pressure, not sensationalism. I don't think you understand that at all, and I don't think you're gonna get very far amongst the class by preaching, and then denouncing everyone who disagrees with you as 'fake'.

You're actually right about that Luxemburg quote, I don't really believe the bit about the vanguard party any more, so i'll take that down ;)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also, i've clearly never said that revolution itself is embarassing, irrelevant etc. Stop putting words in my mouth you cretin.

Your example is silly, too. People who plan their careers years in advance are conscious of their want to pursue that career. Right now, it is doubtful that the average worker, being pilloried as 'lazy public sector workers', struggling to hold down a job, pay the bills, are thinking of Marx, Lenin or anysuch similar person in their minds right now. It's our job to keep up the class struggle in the form of protests, demos, strikes, sit-ins and educate workers in the process. It's not our job to simply preach and expect workers to be receptive to some abstract ideas from 100-200 years ago.

[Pretty Flaco]

Your advice on editing and claiming to know what workers think and understand is in fact a cover for having zero revolutionary perspectives. You hide behind criticisms of ‘form’ and ‘style’ to avoid discussion of the ‘content’ which is what you really can’t cope with. Pathetic.

Obviously he needs to read more Lenin.

[Blackscare]

Haha, oh boy. Threetune nevermind what I said before man, I think you've struck gold. Take that shit to the nearest event, fuck even a crowded starbucks, and hand it out. Then please, please come back here and tell the tales of your success. We could learn a lot from you, why you're not being followed around by anthropologists already is a mystery to me.

I am totally serious though, if -somehow- you were for once starting to shed your mind-boggling arrogance for just a tiny moment and beginning to allow things like self-awareness or humility to creep into your consciousness please, stop it and think things through dude. It goes without question that the secret of the historic failure of the left in this country can be traced back to one fundamental flaw; severe threetune deficiency. Now go out there and show us all what you're made of. Really dude, go hand that out. BUT YOU HAVE TO, YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO, come back here and accurately relay your results back to us. Sadly, I severely doubt your integrity and I think that if any does exist it will be overridden by your drive to be "right" and you'll lie, but here's hope'n bro.

[Threetune]

Part three

There is no stopping the crisis.
It is not a "bad patch" which the fake-"lefts essentially see it as, or imply in their pacifist solutions.
Most of them deep down see "crisis" as nothing but a bit of a swing in the constant tug-of-war between the overweening power and influence of the tiny arrogant ruling class, and the working class, with financial difficulties driving the ruling class to impose harsher conditions.

As the perspectives of the "lefts" go "crisis" only means a bit more "tug" is needed in this constant tussle between the classes, to "defend" living standards and jobs.
With enough "heave ho" and "properly organised picket lines" it is supposed, the "burdens of the crisis" can be forced onto the ruling class.

It is a sick joke.

The devastation unfolding now is a qualitative failure of an entire system that cannotbe stopped, by "making it fairer".

There is no possible reverse, upturn, suspension, amelioration, cut-reduction, "Stopping" of war, or "fighting the cuts" except by the struggle to end capitalist class rule domination forever, everywhere.

That cannot be done through "voting" and "democracy" which is a total lie and manipulation to disguise the hidden rule of the bourgeoisie, but by revolutionary communism, establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat to end for good the monstrous destructive, wasteful, poisonous, depraved, torturing, callous, intolerable arrogance and greed of the tiny boss and owner class, appropriating the hard-sweated output of billions of humans for their own private and pointless pleasure and power.

No new way doing things, "better" capitalism, better regulated capitalism without "greedy bankers" (a nonsensical impossibility), "small business" capitalism (another impossibility in a world which always produces bigger and bigger monopolies), re-industtrialised capitalism (another nonsense – parasitic finance will always win out as Lenin analysed in Imperialism -the highest stage of capitalism), – no "sensitive capitalism", capitalism "with compassion", nationalised capitalism, controlled capitalism, reformed capitalism, "democratic" capitalism, limited capitalism, trade unionised capitalism, "pacifist" capitalism, European capitalism, internationalised capitalism, "freedom" capitalism, socialised capitalism or "Big Society" capitalism, is going to change anything.

The demands of capital to make profit, and drive out all competition by whatever means necessary are relentless, insatiable, irreversible, unchangeable and inarguable, even if the odd (and it is usually very odd) nice, philanthropic, generous, or reasonable boss should attempt to swim in the other direction.

Utopians are always swept aside by the unrelenting profit-hunger (or will go under) and the more so as the overall crisis breaks, taking down entire countries and even continents (as in World War Two).

Capitalism is out of time, a social and economic order which has dragged mankind from the torpor of agricultural serfdom into technological and scientific progress but which is tangled in its own even deepening contradictions which besides being inhumanly unfair, alienating, damaging, wasteful, and vicious, can only bring the world repeatedly back to ever greater disaster.

Such gains as have been achieved have only ever been granted because of the underlying class threat of revolution, and always to be taken back when the ruling class feels it can (after the idiot and pointless liquidation of the still viable and growing USSR by Gorbachevism for example) – or when it is so desperate it has no choice but to turn to direct intimidatory dictatorship (fascism), tearing up the expensive pretences of parliament and Congress.

The ruling class know very well what they have to do – and the Tory ruling party has been accelerating its preparations behind the pretence of "rebuilding the economy", which has just been a means of buying time for the class war savagery that it knows it must impose.

That was the meaning of Cameron's speech declaring that the "foundations were being laid". It means preparing to impose penury and poverty to intimidate and "discipline" the working class into accepting massively increased exploitation.

The latest revelations about Tory "defence" minister Liam Fox and the secret, behind-the-scenes wheeler dealing with various paid but undeclared assistants confirm the more general conspiratorial conclusions of a ruling class that is constantly manoeuvring to push its class was domination.

The key part of that story is not an extension of the MP corruption scandal, (telling enough in itself as another tiny facet of the overall network of connections and manipulation by which the ruling class maintains its dictatorship while pretending "democracy" has some meaning) but the fact that the mysterious "assistant" to Fox was running a sinister right-wing network out of the minister's office as a charity".

The dictatorship of capital will become a lot more vicious yet as the crisis drives a panicked ruling class to the most desperate measures of open fascist dictatorship.

An interesting Internet piece hints out how the neocon "New American Century" agenda for intimidating the whole world via shock and awe blitzkrieg (to allow dominant American imperialism to ride out the slump but ruthlessly facing down all challenges, from Third World upheaval and rival capitalism alike) is readying itself to impose domestic dictatorship.

While specific details may or may not be right, the thrust of its allegations is not only credible but exactly in line with Marxist understanding:
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/09/warning-corporate-fascist-military-coup.html (http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/09/warning-corporate-fascist-military-coup.html)
byTony Cartalucci September 30, 2011- The US intelligence community, in conjunction with Wall Street corporate-financier interests, have spent an inordinate amount of time positioning themselves for a possible military coup and martial law take over of the United States. This is being done under the guise of the fraudulent "War on Terror" but in preparation for a very real and inevitable economic collapse. In particular, one personality above all others is being groomed by intelligence operatives and policy wonks, while built-up by the corporate media [1][2] in the eyes of the public to intercede in America's accelerating political, economic, and even global tactical decline.


The "restore the American republic" conclusions this piece comes to are a long way from the Marxist communist necessities which alone can solve capitalist collapse, (though the original bourgeois colonialist fight against British imperialism has a proud enough revolutionary tradition still detectable in American democratic ideology).
Capitalism has not been "subverted and taken over" by corporations, it inevitably spawned this monopoly form.

It is changeable only by revolutionary overthrow.
But to get there means rebuilding class understanding in communism – against all the brainwashing "it doesn't work" Goebbels lies holding back workers.

To clarify that means a hard look at all the mistakes and difficulties made in the first titanically great experiments to build working class rule – not writing it off in the foul petty bourgeois sneering of Trotskyism or covering up the difficulties as the Stalinists do, but through open polemical struggle for scientific understanding of the enormous achievements of the USSR and other workers states and the philosophical retreats from revolutionism which eventually liquidated them.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Do you honestly think you will win ordinary workers over by attacking absolutely everything but your own confessional views on the left, attacking bourgeois democracy and voting, attacking Tory ministers and connecting their idiocy to some conspirational crisis of Capitalism's ruling class?

I'm not saying that your views on bourgeois democracy and teh Tories aren't correct, but your part 3 section really does come across as a mish-mash of angry, ill-thought out ideas.

You should separate the sections into the economic, the political and then connect the two in a third section. It just sounds like ranting at the moment. But good luck. I hope you see that, actually, the rest of us are good souls working for revolution, not for imperialism/Capitalism/fascism/Japan.

[Threetune]

“The English have at their disposal all necessary material preconditions for a social revolution. What they lack is the spirit of generalization and revolutionary passion. Marx.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

With all respect, an out-of-context quote from 150 years ago really isn't relevant to the discussion.

Don't get butthurt by my criticisms, i've actually tried to be constructive despite you haranguing my earlier in the thread. Maybe you should try and engage in a constructive debate with me, eh?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Stammer and Tickle you just don't get this brilliant faith! Clearly only 3tune knows what the Angel Gabriel meant when YHWH had the nature of class struggle dictated to Lenin word for word on the Mountain of Proles.

Praise be to Lenin! Now we will all read "Lenin's Prayer" from the Book of 3tune

"Guide them my lord
To the true Proletarianism
And from idolatrous Fake Lefts
That Trotsky is vanquished
That Luxemburg is forgotten
And guud speling is no longer needed
Now go forth and spread the word
Let the pamphlets flow
And the workers rabble
Amen"


Friendly advise to 3-tune if you are going to go off on some bullshit sectarianism the least you could do is spell properly. Getting a serious ideological criticism is one thing, but getting insulted by someone without the good sense to correct obvious errors is just irritating. And as Blackscare/S&T are saying don't try to preach your theology/mythology to people who don't believe it anyways, you're not going to win over a single soul to the class struggle that way. To be quite frank few people really give a shit about some nearly-100 year old ideological disputes that were mainly relevant to the material conditions of 1920s/30s Russia, not the modern world. Talking about "fake lefts" and "isms" is a waste of their time, talk instead about discrete policy proposals and alternatives. To be quite frank all socialists have to work together for the better tomorrow, and running around like a "Leninist" version of a Mormon missionary, with all the certainty that you know the absolute truth about reality, won't make you a useful person to the movement.



Don't get butthurt by my criticisms, i've actually tried to be constructive despite you haranguing my earlier in the thread. Maybe you should try and engage in a constructive debate with me, eh?

you haven't read enough Lenin to be taken seriously by 3tune :P . Then again I doubt Lenin read enough Lenin to be taken seriously by 3tune :D

[Comrade-Z]

I'm against opportunistically humoring incorrect liberal or apolitical approaches to the movement, but I don't think strident rhetoric helps our cause right now. It just comes across as desperate and outlandish. What we need to do is patiently explain why capitalism as a system, and not the corporate greed of a cabal of particularly greedy capitalists, is the cause of our current problems. Some people will say that people in the movement are not prepared to hear this yet, but if not now, then when? If we patiently and soberly explain, without wild rhetoric, our views, it can't hurt.

[Threetune]

Bank of England governor argues that time is running out to beat the problems of solvency – in banks and countries

“King said that the recapitalisation of banks in continental Europe in October 2008 had been inadequate, noting that the underlying problems of excessive debt had not gone away. "As a result, markets are now posing new questions about the solvency of banks, and indeed of governments themselves."

“The governor said that creditor countries such as Germany and Japan had to expand domestic demand so that debtor countries such as Britain could export more. "Each country can put itself in a position to rebalance, as we have done in the UK. But in the absence of rebalancing, globally and especially in the euro area, we could be facing a recovery that is not
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/18/mervyn-king-speaks-on-british-economy?newsfeed=truemerely reluctant but recalcitrant.


Meanwhile the state flexes its muscle in advance of the widespread resistance to come.

"Officers who have been trained how to deal with riots have been called in from forces across the country to be on standby."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8834927/Bailiffs-finally-prepare-to-evict-Dale-Farm-traveller-site.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8834927/Bailiffs-finally-prepare-to-evict-Dale-Farm-traveller-site.html)

[Comrade-Z]

Bank of England governor argues that time is running out to beat the problems of solvency – in banks and countries

“King said that the recapitalisation of banks in continental Europe in October 2008 had been inadequate, noting that the underlying problems of excessive debt had not gone away. "As a result, markets are now posing new questions about the solvency of banks, and indeed of governments themselves."

“The governor said that creditor countries such as Germany and Japan had to expand domestic demand so that debtor countries such as Britain could export more. "Each country can put itself in a position to rebalance, as we have done in the UK. But in the absence of rebalancing, globally and especially in the euro area, we could be facing a recovery that is not
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/18/mervyn-king-speaks-on-british-economy?newsfeed=truemerely reluctant but recalcitrant.


Meanwhile the state flexes its muscle in advance of the widespread resistance to come.

"Officers who have been trained how to deal with riots have been called in from forces across the country to be on standby."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8834927/Bailiffs-finally-prepare-to-evict-Dale-Farm-traveller-site.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8834927/Bailiffs-finally-prepare-to-evict-Dale-Farm-traveller-site.html)

Sometimes part of me almost suspects that part of the capitalist class unconsciously pumps up talk of crisis in their own system in order to sort of "cry wolf" and make people, over time, cycnical about the whole idea of crisis, such that when there really is a severe crisis situation, people are cynical and uninterested and don't get politicized.

I mean, for all of the crisis talk over the last 3 years since the 2008 financial crisis, people (at least in the U.S.) are still remarkably depoliticized. OWS is just a drop in the bucket in terms of changing this...especially in my neck of the woods (Springfield, MO). Most people around here have no clue what OWS is about and don't care (which is corroborated by a recent Gallup poll):
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx
(If people were really interested in OWS, they would have had plenty of time by now to look into it and come to a position on it. The fact that so many have not indicates still vast depoliticization).

So I'm not always sure that it serves our interests to always play into the crisis rhetoric that some of the bourgeois media throws out there. You get into a habit of implying that the revolution is always "just around the corner," and after a while this sort of talk discredits itself and discredits you when nothing materializes.

So, if anything, I'd rather see radical leftists remain more sober and analytical in their rhetoric and not be phased by the passing fads of talking about this or that crisis--since, after all, the real problem is not any particular crisis, but capitalism in general.

[Threetune]

That’s it? You have absolutely nothing to say except “don’t talk about the crisis and its revolutionary communist solution.” ‘Empty vessels make much noise’!

[Blackscare]

Dude just go out and hand those out. Then come back to us and tell us if you were on the mark at all.

[Threetune]

Dude just go out and hand those out. Then come back to us and tell us if you were on the mark at all.

Just to see what more blithering nonsense we can draw out of you, what is meant by being “on the mark” as you put it? Does it mean pandering to prevailing prejudices and not confronting the anti-communist culture for example, the way the ‘lefts’ have been doing for decades?