Is the DPRK pimpimg wage-slaves for money around Asia?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9612939.stm


Garments labelled "Designed in Scotland" and sold by a UK high street chain are being made by North Korean labour in Mongolian factories, the BBC's Newsnight programme has found.
Newsnight discovered that some cashmere jumpers sold by Edinburgh Woollen Mill (EWM) are made in a factory where 80 of the workers are from North Korea.
Edinburgh Woollen Mill said the labels are "factually correct" and they do not discriminate about who they employ, but there are questions about what happens to North Korean workers' wages.
Edinburgh Woollen Mill has 500 outlets around the UK which sell garments including cashmere jumpers, labelled James Pringle and "Designed in Scotland", which are produced by a company based in Mongolia called Eermel.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif They are looked after by Eermel. They have a dormitory, they have food, they have showers, they have a television http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Former Eermel manager David Woods on conditions for the North Korean workers

The North Korean workers in the Eermel factory in Mongolia are given food and a place to sleep, but according to Eermel's export director, Bayar, their wages are paid to the North Korean government.
"We are transferring the money to the account of the light industry of North Korea," Bayar told Newsnight.
He said he did not know how much of the wages were given to the workers: "How they split - divide the salary - we don't know."
Contradictory statements
David Woods, a manager at the Eermel factory who has recently left the company, told Newsnight:
"We're very proud to be working with Edinburgh Woollen Mill, they joined us about five years ago."
Mr Woods said the North Koreans are "hard workers, they don't complain", and that "they are looked after by Eermel. They have a dormitory, they have food, they have showers, they have a television".
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56041000/jpg/_56041776_bbcworkers.jpg
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Read statement from Edinburgh Woollen Mill (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/9614949.stm)

But when Newsnight contacted Edinburgh Woollen Mill about the arrangement the company told us they had been given a different explanation of the set up by Eermel
"No funds are paid to North Korea or any North Korean agency," they said.
The statement was in stark contradiction to what Newsnight's reporters were told on the ground, which was "the North Korean government is getting money from here".
For decades North Korea has been one of the world's most secretive societies. It is one of the few countries still under nominally communist rule.
Following North Korea's nuclear test in October 2006, the United Nations Security Council imposed sanctions on Pyongyang. The "targeted" sanctions include an embargo on military and technological materials and luxury goods, as well as a set of financial sanctions.
Labelling regulations
The US State Department estimates that around 100,000 North Koreans are employed in work brigades in Russia, China and Mongolia, generating hundreds of millions of pounds a year for leader Kim Jong-il's regime.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/55979000/jpg/_55979744_122107975.jpg Kim Jong-il leads North Korea's totalitarian regime

The labour brigades are usually overseen by North Korean officials who maintain similar tight controls to those faced by the workers back in their totalitarian homeland.
At the Eermel factory in Mongolia, the-then manager Mr Woods showed Newsnight factory workers, including those from North Korea, making James Pringle cashmere jumpers.
Mr Woods also showed us the finished product, ready to be sent to Scotland, complete with "Designed in Scotland" labels.
Newsnight purchased an identical jumper in one of Edinburgh Woollen Mill's stores in the Scottish capital Edinburgh.
There is no legal requirement to label clothes with their country of origin, but it is an offence to mislead customers about where a product is made.
The Trading Standards Institute told Newsnight that "on the face of it" labelling a jumper as "Designed in Scotland" and not saying where and how it had been made "could be in breach of the regulations" to protect consumers from unfair trading.
Watch the report in full on Newsnight on Thursday 13 October 2011 at 2230 on BBC Two and then afterwards on the BBC iPlayer and Newsnight website.


Is this what they call "Socialism" in North Korea?

[00000000000]

Doesn't surprise me. Fucking hate Kim and his ugly regime (wish they'd stop calling it 'Communist')

[Zealot]

Sounds like bs, why would the DPRK want to extract a small amount of money from what would obviously be a small wage from Koreans in a different country. Makes no sense.

[Geiseric]

What do you mean ig makes no sense? it said right there, gets tens of millions of pounds a year... They're desperate for cash too, kim spent it all on jack daniels

[W1N5T0N]

FUCK the DPRK.
more reactionary governments are hard to find these days...

and i mean that. :mad:

[Zealot]

Hundreds of millions of pounds a year from only 100,000 workers seems a bit over the top for wage-slaves.

[Rooster]

Hundreds of millions of pounds a year from only 100,000 workers seems a bit over the top for wage-slaves.

That clothes company is a top end brand, as far as I'm aware, so it's not surprising that that amount of money is generated. And 100,000 people is a lot of labour power.

[Zealot]

That clothes company is a top end brand, as far as I'm aware, so it's not surprising that that amount of money is generated. And 100,000 people is a lot of labour power.
This company is only employing 80 North Koreans who are probably working in horrid conditions and minimum wage, as is the norm for most overseas capitalist companies.

[Nuvem]

I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.

You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.
Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK. Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economy, they still adhere to democratic centralism (not some crazy, off the wall "totalitarian dictatorship", [a meaningless term to begin with]) and the issue of nepotism in their leadership is gradually being solved. It seems as if the Party may not take to Kim Jong Un the way they did Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un doesn't seem that enthusiastic about executive power to begin with. ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be. Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist. Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.

[Per Levy]

And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK. You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.

insults are great arguments...


Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK.

i pity you. tell me then, do you belive that the military is the "revolutionary class"?


Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economy

didnt i read in the dprk news thread that coca cola and other companys invest in north korea(because of the cheap wages and stuff)?


ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be.

i have my doubts about that tbh, i mean in south korea at least there are free unions that organize workers and so on. show me free worker unions in the north. also there are many many other issues(labour camps and other fun stuff) that makes north korea quite authoritarian.


Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist. Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.

you might should take your own advice to heart and read more then fucking propaganda of the kims. you're really cute btw, all leftists who dont like north korea are of course not really leftists and watch glenn beck and fox 24/7, and every analysis of north korea that wont fit in your view must be bourgeois propaganda. great analysis really...

[tir1944]

didnt i read in the dprk news thread that coca cola and other companys invest in north korea(because of the cheap wages and stuff)?
So? What's your point?

[piet11111]

Hundreds of millions of pounds a year from only 100,000 workers seems a bit over the top for wage-slaves.

Say they make 2500 dollar a year 2500x 100.000 = 250.000.000 or 250 million dollar.

Does not seem so outlandish to me.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.


So what about the official DPRK websites advertising the "cheapest labour in Asia" and how there's no risk of labour unrest whatsoever? The DPRK is not exactly covert about offering cheap labour supply to Chinese and other foreign investment groups in Sinji and the city on the border with Russia, as well as South Korean industry utilising the industrial park outside of Kaesong.

[tir1944]

Mongolia has like 2,6 mil people.Almost half of the pop. lives in the capital Ulan Bator.
Importing 100k immigrants simply couldn't have been possible wihthout either huge disruptions or huge infrastructural investments-like building a whole new city for these immigrants,even if 4 of them shared the same room.
So this article is most likely bullshit.
100k workers...:laugh:

Also,does DPRK not have "special economic zones" too?
WTF would they export their workers to Mongolia(!) of all places,i don't understand.
This just doesn't make sense...
Mongolia has like 2 railways and is landlocked.It would have been smarter to "export" them to Shenzhen or some other coastal Chinese industrial center...

I call this story bullshit.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Mongolia has like 2,6 mil people.Almost half of the pop. lives in the capital Ulan Bator.
Importing 100k immigrants simply couldn't have been possible wihthout either huge disruptions or huge infrastructural investments-like building a whole new city for these immigrants,even if 4 of them shared the same room.
So this article is most likely bullshit.
100k workers...:laugh:

Also,does DPRK not have "special economic zones" too?
WTF would they export their workers to Mongolia(!) of all places,i don't understand.
This just doesn't make sense...
Mongolia has like 2 railways and is landlocked.It would have been smarter to "export" them to Shenzhen or some other coastal Chinese industrial center...

I call this story bullshit.

The DPRK already has numerous temporary and seasonal workers that work in the Russian logging industry in the Russian Far East and Siberia, which also provide some cross-border trade (mostly smuggling). That they would have further in Mongolia is hardly surprising. A lot of the industry in the DPRK itself are mothballed due to lack of resources, operational expertise or other political complications, so in a striving to bring in foreign exchange (hard currency), they encourage external employment.

[piet11111]

Sending out workers is a good way to get hard currency and to avoid sanctions.

And then you have giant corporations that love the cheapest labor possible but find actually investing in North Korea too risky so the next best thing is making a deal with the government for x amount of workers for y amount of money.

Also the 100k workers if you read the article it clearly says

The US State Department estimates that around 100,000 North Koreans are employed in work brigades in Russia, China and Mongolia

[tir1944]

The DPRK already has numerous temporary and seasonal workers that work in the Russian logging industry in the Russian Far East and Siberia, which also provide some cross-border trade (mostly smuggling)
I know.
People living in logging camps in Siberia,a few thousands.

That is quite different than a 100k(!) people imported into Mongolia(!) to sew pants and t-shirts.
:laugh:

[Zealot]

Say they make 2500 dollar a year 2500x 100.000 = 250.000.000 - expenses for them and their families subsistence and other expenses = no where near "hundreds of millions"

Fixed.

[robbo203]

I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.

You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.
Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK. Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economy, they still adhere to democratic centralism (not some crazy, off the wall "totalitarian dictatorship", [a meaningless term to begin with]) and the issue of nepotism in their leadership is gradually being solved. It seems as if the Party may not take to Kim Jong Un the way they did Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un doesn't seem that enthusiastic about executive power to begin with. ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be. Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist. Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.



And what pray would such a socialist analysis reveal other than the fact the the DPRK is nothing more than a nasty little state capitalist shithole whose regime thinks nothing of pimping its wage slaves for a juicy profit in those special economic zones amomngst other things. And dont talk to us about poor little DPRK valiantly taking on the might of imperialism. Without the aid of Chinese imperialism which the DPRK desparately needs and actively solicits, the DPRK would be completely stuffed.

You are worse than liberals and the "coffee shop" leftists you scorn. An utterly deluded authoritarian leftist in complete denial about the fundamentally capitalist nature of the DPRK and willing to support this disgusting anti working class regime on that most flimsy of premisses - that the enemy of an enemy must be friend. Western capitalism might not look upon the DPRK with favour but that does not mean we should

[Rafiq]

Oh, so now the United States is talking about pushing labor laws in Asia. Fucking hypocrites. There isn't a country that is responsible for more exploitation than the United States.

[Per Levy]

So? What's your point?

my point is, how can you have "a planned and socialist economy" if private capital/ownership and special economic zones operate in your country?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Mongolia has like 2,6 mil people.Almost half of the pop. lives in the capital Ulan Bator.
Importing 100k immigrants simply couldn't have been possible wihthout either huge disruptions or huge infrastructural investments-like building a whole new city for these immigrants,even if 4 of them shared the same room.
So this article is most likely bullshit.
100k workers...:laugh:



The US State Department estimates that around 100,000 North Koreans are employed in work brigades in Russia, China and Mongolia, generating hundreds of millions of pounds a year for leader Kim Jong-il's regime. Some people are so quick to assume ANYTHING bad about the DPRK is propaganda that they let their reading skills slide it seems. They are very clearly saying there are 100,000 North Koreans in Mongolia but spread all over Siberia, parts of China and Mongolia combined.



Also,does DPRK not have "special economic zones" too?
WTF would they export their workers to Mongolia(!) of all places,i don't understand.
This just doesn't make sense...
Mongolia has like 2 railways and is landlocked.It would have been smarter to "export" them to Shenzhen or some other coastal Chinese industrial center...

I call this story bullshit.

How do you explain factories with North Korean workers in Mongolia then?

They obviously are bringing the NKorean workers because they are using Mongolian Cashmere (in other words because the raw materials are most efficiently gathered where the Cashmere goats can graze, ie the steppes of Mongolia/Northern China) and costs are going to be lower in Mongolia despite its isolation due to the fact that it has a fairly underdeveloped economy. Just because there are economic zones in Shenzen it doesn't mean that there isn't also demand for cheap labor in Mongolia too.


I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.

You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.

Shitbirds? Anarkids? Whatever ...



Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK. Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economy, they still adhere to democratic centralism (not some crazy, off the wall "totalitarian dictatorship", [a meaningless term to begin with]) Right, so BBC is all teh propagandazz but the writings of Kim jong Il are obviously an accurate representation of the principles of their government. Great, you can "bust your ass" reading 50-year old writings by a monarch-in-all-but-name but they are not at all relevant to the DPRK exploiting labor in 2011.


and the issue of nepotism in their leadership is gradually being solved. It seems as if the Party may not take to Kim Jong Un the way they did Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un doesn't seem that enthusiastic about executive power to begin with. :laugh::laugh: ... wow ... no real Communist Party in the world would ever have such a massive nepotism problem to begin with! And that is not convincing evidence that they are solving nepotism in the DPRK at all.


ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be. Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist. Straw man, we're not talking about the RoK we're talking about the DPRK pimping wage slaves to international Capital while it calls itself a "Worker's Democracy".


Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.So the BBC=Glenn Beck now?

What "Socialist analysis"? Your Kim-loving diatribe? I don't consider calling people "anarkids" and "shitbirds" to be good analysis.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I know.
People living in logging camps in Siberia,a few thousands.

That is quite different than a 100k(!) people imported into Mongolia(!) to sew pants and t-shirts.
:laugh:

As piet said, the total number is 100,000, this includes all foreign work-brigades. All of them are not in the same city, nor are all in Mongolia.

(This attack on the DPRK is obviously hypocritical and as nonsensical as it is irrelevant judging from its originators; but nevertheless it is very much a reality that the DPRK is, like all capitalist states, degenerate or not, pandering its work-force for its own benefit.)

[piet11111]

Fixed.

Wages earned might already have expenses calculated into the total.
Either way having them work for ~200 per month is very cheap and feeding them is a matter of a few dollars a day and having them sleep on the factory grounds in shacks does not cost much either heck they probably have a factory shop on their grounds making a bit of profit.
Also i have no reason to assume they only work for 8 hours a day making them even more profitable.

Either way 100.000 workers can generate a huge profit for the North korean state and hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue is not a figure that is at all unlikely.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.

You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.
Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK. Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economy, they still adhere to democratic centralism (not some crazy, off the wall "totalitarian dictatorship", [a meaningless term to begin with]) and the issue of nepotism in their leadership is gradually being solved. It seems as if the Party may not take to Kim Jong Un the way they did Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un doesn't seem that enthusiastic about executive power to begin with. ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be. Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist. Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.

Sorry to hear you wasted your time...

[Magdalen]

Mongolia has like 2,6 mil people.Almost half of the pop. lives in the capital Ulan Bator.
Importing 100k immigrants simply couldn't have been possible wihthout either huge disruptions or huge infrastructural investments-like building a whole new city for these immigrants,even if 4 of them shared the same room.
So this article is most likely bullshit.
100k workers...:laugh:

Also,does DPRK not have "special economic zones" too?
WTF would they export their workers to Mongolia(!) of all places,i don't understand.
This just doesn't make sense...
Mongolia has like 2 railways and is landlocked.It would have been smarter to "export" them to Shenzhen or some other coastal Chinese industrial center...

I call this story bullshit.

Around 200,000 Polish and Eastern European immigrants arrived in Ireland, a state of slightly less than 4 million people, in the years immediately following 2004. Although their arrival was certainly noticeable, it certainly didn't give cause for any new cities to be built!

As for this story, I saw it earlier on the Scottish News, but I think we should refrain from commenting until it's clarified somewhat. However, I do recall that about a year or so ago there was definite proof that large numbers of North Koreans were working on vast forestry operations in Siberia (there was even an entire village constructed with everything down to a statue of Kim Il Sung!).

However, I will say that I severely doubt the North Koreans were working in conditions anywhere near as bad as those of many workers employed by Western corporations in the oppressed world - perhaps we can concern ourselves with that first!

[black magick hustla]

Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK.

boy you have some problems

[Rooster]

So? What's your point?

That north Korea is capitalist? How is a socialist society, one without private property, able to function with capitalists and a capitalist mode of production?

[Jose Gracchus]

Oh, so now the United States is talking about pushing labor laws in Asia. Fucking hypocrites. There isn't a country that is responsible for more exploitation than the United States.

I think part of the problem with the left is the search for 'parties' 'responsible' for exploitation, which leads people quite quickly to class-collaborationist or other opportunist conclusions. Exploitation is intrinsic to capital; which particular capitals predominate at any given time is immaterial to the condition of exploitation and its propagation.


That north Korea is capitalist? How is a socialist society, one without private property, able to function with capitalists and a capitalist mode of production?

Do you really believe none of the higher-ups in the DPRK appropriate wealth from these deals off the books or unofficially? At least the case could be made for some real austerity in the conditions of the Brezhnev-era Soviet ruling class, but modern Stalinisms are notoriously corrupt, and many party officials and military men have ample access to Western luxury goods, leaving the country, etc., etc. What do you think pays for that, besides surplus value extracted from the productive labor of proletarians?

What makes the DPRK "socialist"? Your say-so? It certainly bears none of the qualities Marx and Engels assigned to it, and I do not really care what Stalin's revisionism redefined it to.

[Rodrigo]

insults are great arguments...

What you said in the last sentences shouldn't be regarded as arguments too.


i pity you. tell me then, do you belive that the military is the "revolutionary class"?Who ever said the military is a class? That's not an idea from Juche.


didnt i read in the dprk news thread that coca cola and other companys invest in north korea(because of the cheap wages and stuff)?Proofs? Evidences? Why would Coca-Cola want to "invest in North Korea"?


show me free worker unions in the north.

"The General Federation of Trade Unions of Korea is a mass political organization of the working masses founded on November 30, Juche 34 (1945).


It conducts ideological education to make its members fully understand the Juche idea and gets them to take part in socialist construction and the management of the socialist economy with the attitude befitting masters.



It has its organizations in different branches of industry."


Source: http://175.45.176.14/en/great/political.php?6


also there are many many other issues(labour camps and other fun stuff) that makes north korea quite authoritarian.I don't know if there's still labor camps in DPRK, since it's made for criminals; what's the crime rate in North Korea? Every country is authoritarian; but if it's not capitalist it's automatically regarded as “more authoritarian than anything”, “cruel dictatorship”, “regime”, etc. And you say to the other guy he should read more than “propaganda” "of the Kims”?


Opposing positions aside, it's the duty of every revolutionary leftist to be pro-DPRK, considering its struggle against imperialism and capitalism. I'm not saying we should support Juche or anything else; we don't support Islamic theocracy because of pro-Palestinian stance, am I right? This stance is much better than common sense anticommunist bullshit you guys are ranting against DPRK.


Saying “DPRK is authoritarian” and “I fucking hate the Kims regime” is not really different from acting like Glenn Back or Fox idiots. The North Korean State is proletarian. No State in the world is a "one-man (or few people) State"; that's a wrong and bourgeois analysis of the State.




my point is, how can you have "a planned and socialist economy" if private capital/ownership and special economic zones operate in your country?
OK so that works as follows . . .




If a country's economy is fully controlled by the [proletarian] State (no example of that in the real world): OMG THEY'RE TOTALITARIAN(sic) BASTARDS!



If it's not: OMG THEY'RE NOT(sic) COMMUNISTS!


:bored:



boy you have some problems


Why? Because he's not stupid in criticizing something without knowledge and repeating stupid capitalist propaganda against North Korea? If that's “problem” for you then you shouldn't even be in a discussion board.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

Certainly doesn't look very good for the Kims.

[thefinalmarch]

What makes the DPRK "socialist"? Your say-so? It certainly bears none of the qualities Marx and Engels assigned to it, and I do not really care what Stalin's revisionism redefined it to.
Uh... rooster is not calling the DPRK socialist. Not at all.

[black magick hustla]

Why? Because he's not stupid in criticizing something without knowledge and repeating stupid capitalist propaganda against North Korea? If that's “problem” for you then you shouldn't even be in a discussion board.

no because only someone who is mentally ill and with weird obsessions and compulsions would read "thousands of pages" of kim jung il. anyhow, social relationships are not established by one personality, so whatever he has to say about the issue is as meaningless as obama talking about the social reality of america. but w/e man, the deadweight of maoism is the deadweight of a group of people who believe in a bourgeois romantic revolutionary in an "era where bourgeois revolutions are impossible".

[VILemon]

Who ever said the military is a class? That's not an idea from Juche.

Read up on the Songun policy, which was a major addition to the Juche ideology in the 1990s.


Proofs? Evidences? Why would Coca-Cola want to "invest in North Korea"?
They would want to do this to extract surplus capital in a cheap labor market where the workers are well-disciplined and not likely to make demands.



"The General Federation of Trade Unions of Korea is a mass political organization of the working masses founded on November 30, Juche 34 (1945).


It conducts ideological education to make its members fully understand the Juche idea and gets them to take part in socialist construction and the management of the socialist economy with the attitude befitting masters.



It has its organizations in different branches of industry."

The US declaration of independence says that all humans have an unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So what?

[tir1944]

I see...i stand corrected about the numbers.
On a side note,Tito did basically the same thing and sent more than hald a million workers to West Germany...
Also i don't see the problem with a planned economy allowing SEZs or similar.
As long as these are kept on a tight leash of course...

[black magick hustla]

As long as these are kept on a tight leash of course...

you are scum

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I see...i stand corrected about the numbers.
On a side note,Tito did basically the same thing and sent more than hald a million workers to West Germany...
Also i don't see the problem with a planned economy allowing SEZs or similar.
As long as these are kept on a tight leash of course...

It was just as wrong when Yugoslavian capitalism couldn't provide jobs for its population and forced them to run into Western Europe and pluck fruits in orchards.

You don't see the problem with a - supposedly - planned economy allowing a zone that is essentially a free-for-all exploitation heaven for foreign capitalists? You don't see the contradiction there, between the "planned" and the chaos of the market? You think worker exploitation is all right because it's "on a leash"?

[thefinalmarch]

On a side note,Tito did basically the same thing and sent more than hald a million workers to West Germany...
Precisely. Capitalism plain and simple.

[Rooster]

What makes the DPRK "socialist"? Your say-so? It certainly bears none of the qualities Marx and Engels assigned to it, and I do not really care what Stalin's revisionism redefined it to.

Comrade, I'm saying that north korea is a capitalist regime. One point of evidence for that is that capitalists are able to invest in the country (mobile phone companies) and other capitalists are able to trade with the country (hired out labour, special economic zones).

[tir1944]

you are scum
Thanks bro.



It was just as wrong when Yugoslavian capitalism couldn't provide jobs for its population and forced them to run into Western Europe and pluck fruits in orchards.
Precisely.But Tito was/and is praised for "allowing more freedoms".At leasts by so called "libsocs".



You don't see the problem with a - supposedly - planned economy allowing a zone that is essentially a free-for-all exploitation heaven for foreign capitalists? You don't see the contradiction there, between the "planned" and the chaos of the market? You think worker exploitation is all right because it's "on a leash"?
Of course there's a contradiction,but the question is "who will get who",if you know what i mean.Socialism is a TRANSITIONAL period.
If SEZs could bring the much needed hard currency i don't see what's the issue.
FYI,the workers at these foreign factories probably make more than 2-3 times the average N.Korean worker makes.So from their point of view,it's better.


Precisely. Capitalism plain and simple.
The Yugoslav "system" wasn't that "plain and simple".;)


I'm saying that north korea is a capitalist regime. One point of evidence for that is that capitalists are able to invest in the country (mobile phone companies) and other capitalists are able to trade with the country (hired out labour, special economic zones).
No,that's not what makes a country capitalist.
Is Cuba "capitalist" because it allows small private businesses?
Also what people here have to understand is that NK doesn't really have much of a choice.It's a small country cornered by worldwide imperialism.

[EvilRedGuy]

FUCK the DPRK.
more reactionary governments are hard to find these days...

and i mean that. :mad:

They are all capitalist nations, so they are equally reactionary.

ALSO LOL @ all Stalinist shit using pseudo-arguments.

[tir1944]

They are all capitalist nations, so they are equally reactionary.No,DPRK isn't bombing countries around the world.You got that,right?
Nor is it workign against communist parties worldwide etc...


ALSO LOL @ all Stalinist shit using pseudo-arguments.
Cool story bro.:cool:

[Thirsty Crow]

No,DPRK isn't bombing countries around the world.You got that,right?
Nor is it workign against communist parties worldwide etc...

So, let me get it straight, you think one cannot talk about a "capitalist nation" (in other words, a society based on the capitalist social relations, however modified and "distorted", by standards common to "normal" functioning of capitalist social relations, i.e. the "West") if its military is not enagaged in direct aggressive ventures? Wow, that's interesting.

And with regard to your second point, you pretty much sumed it up yourself: the state apparatus of the DPRK is not working against "comunist parties" worldwide, but it also does not engage them and support them in any meaningful way - it is, more or less totally disconnected from global class struggle except in that it also functions as the market that is slowly opening up (especially in relation to Chinese capital) and also providing labour power for exploitation (which is the basic point of this thread).

So, it would be really interesting to hear an explanation of just how does the DPRK function as a beacon for the international working class and, consequently, for socialism.

[Искра]

Don't forget the Russian capital.

[tir1944]

So, let me get it straight, you think one cannot talk about a "capitalist nation" (in other words, a society based on the capitalist social relations, however modified and "distorted", by standards common to "normal" functioning of capitalist social relations, i.e. the "West") if its military is not enagaged in direct aggressive ventures? Wow, that's interesting. No,my point was that DPRK isn't imperialist.
It was a metaphor so to speak,for all (other) things imperialism implies:export of capital,etc...


And with regard to your second point, you pretty much sumed it up yourself: the state apparatus of the DPRK is not working against "comunist parties" worldwide, but it also does not engage them and support them in any meaningful way - it is, more or less totally disconnected from global class struggle except in that it also functions as the market that is slowly opening up (especially in relation to Chinese capital) and also providing labour power for exploitation (which is the basic point of this thread). As if you don't know what stance have most comparties took regarding the DPRK.


So, it would be really interesting to hear an explanation of just how does the DPRK function as a beacon for the international working class and, consequently, for socialism. Who said that?

[Thirsty Crow]

Who said that?
It's my hyperbolic and ironic way of addressing "communists" who put forward the idea that DPRK represents a functioning socialist society, or even a "deformed workers' state", which shows utter political bankruptcy (though I would be more lenient with DWS propagandists, in fact).

[Искра]

DPRK is nothing but a far-eastern militarist "monarchy" in a way of pre-WW2 Japan.

[EvilRedGuy]

DPRK is nothing but a far-eastern militarist "monarchy" in a way of pre-WW2 Japan.

Basically this. It can be compared to Thailand.

[tir1944]

DPRK is nothing but a far-eastern militarist "monarchy" in a way of pre-WW2 Japan.
Why and how?
Also,got any sources/articles?

[Demogorgon]

I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK.
The unintentional hilarity in this is off the scales. You think reading the propaganda of the dictators is the best way of understanding the dictatorship? I suppose Goebbels' speeches were the best way to understand Nazi Germany for instance?

ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945
Of course, "imperialism" forced it not to trade with the various countries that were happy to trade with it. "Imperialism" forced it to waste vast amounts of resources on prestige projects and so on.


- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be.Even under the military dictatorship, it would be suspect to argue that the South Korean Government was "far more authoritarian" though we need not split hairs on that. Are you seriously going to claim that the modern South Korean Government is like that? It still isn't exactly a shining example of liberty, but to claim it is anything like in the league of North Korea would be a complete denial of reality. Unlike North Korea South Koreans can freely come and go from their country and information freely flows in and out. We know what goes on there and your wild claims don't exactly bare up to it.

[tir1944]

Of course, "imperialism" forced it not to trade with the various countries that were happy to trade with it.
What are you talking about?



"Imperialism" forced it to waste vast amounts of resources on prestige projects and so on.
These projects were done while the USSR was still there.

[RED DAVE]

I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.Typical tactic of trying to turn the tables. Sorry Comrade but when it comes to the DPRK THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU.


You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.That's about right.


Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK.You truly have my sympathy. To have to read THOUSANDS of pages of Kim Il Sung is kind of like listening to THOUSANDS of teachers scratching their fingernails on a blackboard.


Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economyA country without workers control of the economy from the bottom up is not socialism.


they still adhere to democratic centralismDemocratic centralism is designed for the functioning of a party. Under democratic centralism, the party reaches a democratic decision, and members are obliged to carry it out. This has nothing to do with the vile dictatorship of the DPRK.


(not some crazy, off the wall "totalitarian dictatorship", [a meaningless term to begin with])It's a bit vague but far from meaningless. And it applies to the DPRK quite well.


and the issue of nepotism in their leadership is gradually being solved.Why the fuck in a so-called socialist country would it exist in the first place? Even the succession of George Bush I and George Bush II pales in comparison.


It seems as if the Party may not take to Kim Jong Un the way they did Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un doesn't seem that enthusiastic about executive power to begin with.Ohh, isn't dat sweet. Do you actually read the crap you write? We're talking about a country that is allegedly socialist, you're passively accepting a family dictatorship.


ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945All the problems. Every one of them. Each one. Does that include Kim Jun Il's ingrown toenails?


the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be.By now, trade should have been restored decades ago. And the government of South Korea is a bourgeois democratic republic as others have pointed out. South Koreans have, basically, all the rights of, say, Americans, including the right to organize unions and the right to strike, Internet access, the right to travel to foreign countries, etc.


Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist.Who ever said the RoK is the "legitimate power." But the DPRK is just as illegitimate. And you need to drop your stereotypes about "leftists." It's an old Stalinist trick frequently copied by the Right.


Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.You need to take a chill pill. Maybe a nice vacation in the DPRK. Let us know what it's like when you get back.

Let us know about the Free Enterprise Zones and wage-slave pimping while you're there.

RED DAVE

[Iron Felix]

They don't.

[Rooster]

No,that's not what makes a country capitalist.
Is Cuba "capitalist" because it allows small private businesses?

Yes, but we're talking about North Korea. Has North Korea a command or a planned economy? Does it have private business?


Also what people here have to understand is that NK doesn't really have much of a choice.It's a small country cornered by worldwide imperialism.

Sounds more like an excuse for state capitalism.

[tir1944]

Sounds more like an excuse for state capitalism.
What is that anyway,and how/in what way is North Korea "state capitalist"?

[thefinalmarch]

Is Cuba "capitalist" because it allows small private businesses?
That in itself does not make Cuba entirely capitalist. However the very existence of the capitalist mode of production in a "socialist state" ought to raise a few eyebrows.


Also what people here have to understand is that NK doesn't really have much of a choice.It's a small country cornered by worldwide imperialism.
No-one here is denying that it's being "cornered by worldwide imperialism" or whatever excuse the North Korea bourgeoisie has at its disposal -- you just can't accept our analysis that the DPRK is anything but socialist. Although if you'd like to demonstrate to me just how the workers hold political power and participate in a socialist mode of production whereby they have full control over production and distribution, I'd be happy to withdraw my claims.

[robbo203]

No-one here is denying that it's being "cornered by worldwide imperialism" or whatever excuse the North Korea bourgeoisie has at its disposal -- you just can't accept our analysis that the DPRK is anything but socialist. Although if you'd like to demonstrate to me just how the workers hold political power and participate in a socialist mode of production, I'd be happy to withdraw my claims.

I think it is important to again point out that North Korean state capitalism is not simply "cornered by worldwide imperialism" but actually depends upon imperialism and actively solicits its support in the form of Chinese imperialism. Without the aid of Chinese state capitalism the North Korean economy would go down the pan completely. China provides a very large percentage of the development capital for the North Korean economy (see http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1845558&postcount=64 )and it is not out of the goodness of its heart that it does so. It expects a return and it needs a degree of stability to thwart a possible flood of economic refugees from across its border.

That aside, imperialism is the logical expression of capital's expansionist dynamic. Since every country on the face of the planet is essentially capitalist it follows that every country is likewise intrinsically imperialist, whether latently or manifestly including North Korea. Its just that some countries are more successful at being imperialist powers than others for obvious reasons. But given the means and the opportunity to do so the latter would be no different from the former in that respect

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I'm going to have to demand more than a BB fucking C article to prove this kind of accusation. And fuck all you anarkids who spew bourgeois liberal shit about the DPRK.

You shitbirds read an article by a bourgeois paper or watch some awful CNN documentary about the DPRK and decide it's some kind of insane, reactionary shithole.
Meanwhile, I bust my ass reading THOUSANDS of pages of the writings of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il and M.V. Singh in an attempt to gain a legitimate and founded stance in regards to the DPRK. Despite all the nation's problems, they still maintain a planned and socialist economy, they still adhere to democratic centralism (not some crazy, off the wall "totalitarian dictatorship", [a meaningless term to begin with]) and the issue of nepotism in their leadership is gradually being solved. It seems as if the Party may not take to Kim Jong Un the way they did Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un doesn't seem that enthusiastic about executive power to begin with. ALL of the problems of the DPRK are a result of being under ceaseless pressure from Imperialism since 1945- the food shortages and economic problems are a result of having the southern half of their country, formerly Korea's breadbasket, occupied and transformed into a US colony with a government FAR more authoritarian than the DPRK's ever could be. Nothing in the whole world could ever convince me that the RoK is the legitimate power in Korea and you coffee shop "leftists" need to get your heads out of your asses and into a fucking book that wasn't written by Robert Conquest or some other bourgeois propagandist. Put down the bourgeois press, turn off the Glenn Beck show, and read words from the pen of people who have a socialist analysis and are actually related to the struggle concerned.

Ah, well as long as the issue of nepotism is gradually being solved. America have been solving their nepotism issue recently too. Didn't you hear about Hillary's Presidential demise? :rolleyes:

I can't believe any self-proclaimed 'Socialist' would dare to defend this piece of shit, militaristic, anti-worker, nepotistic style of government and rule. Yeah sure, the USA and RoK are arseholes as well but we all know that quite clearly, and they aren't pretending to be on the side of Socialism.

The DPRK are a massive fucking problem because loons like you make the rest of us look idiotic by associating our movement of peace, equality and freedom with a jingoistic, unequal and barbaric regime.

Why can't people leave the DPRK freely?
Why can't people change ruler freely in the DPRK?
Why do they even have a fucking ruler?

The DPRK is the land of the rulers and the ruled just as much as any other Capitalist regime out there. If you can't see that then what the fuck are you doing in the Socialist movement, comrade?

[tir1944]

However the very existence of the capitalist mode of production in a "socialist state" ought to raise a few eyebrows.
Impossible to liquidate.
Small "capitalist" production existed even in Stalin's USSR.
The real question in,what is the DOMINANT mode of production.



No-one here is denying that it's being "cornered by worldwide imperialism" or whatever excuse the North Korea bourgeoisie has at its disposal -- you just can't accept our analysis that the DPRK is anything but socialist.
North Korea is a very weird country.I'm not a fan of Juche or KIS/KJI but i do think that it is indeed socialist.Some very fucked up socialism,but still.
It ain't capitalist,from what i know.



Although if you'd like to demonstrate to me just how the workers hold political power and participate in a socialist mode of production whereby they have full control over production and distribution, I'd be happy to withdraw my claims.
I don't have the sources.Maybe someone else has.
However,i'd also really like to see sources for why it's "state capitalist".


That aside, imperialism is the logical expression of capital's expansionist dynamic. Since every country on the face of the planet is essentially capitalist it follows that every country is likewise intrinsically imperialist
No.Just,no.
Read about what Lenin wrote on imperialism.
How the hell is,let's say,Congo or Moldova imperialist?


But given the means and the opportunity to do so the latter would be no different from the former in that respect.
Most likely but not necessarily.
For example,Chinese imperialism in Africa is different in many ways than American or French.

[thefinalmarch]

Small "capitalist" production existed even in Stalin's USSR.
I won't be awarding you any points for guessing why.


The real question in,what is the DOMINANT mode of production.
This is an ignorant oversimplification. The class nature of a state is not determined by whichever mode of production is dominant, but rather by which class is the ruling class (i.e. which class holds political power), and to determine this we need to observe which class' interests are represented by the state overall.


Some very fucked up socialism,but still.
So state control of the economy with little to no workers' control and political power is socialism to you? Haha, holy shit.

Question: are state-owned enterprises in capitalist societies an example of socialism to you? If not, why not?

[robbo203]

No.Just,no.
Read about what Lenin wrote on imperialism.
How the hell is,let's say,Congo or Moldova imperialist?.

Read what I wrote. I spelt it out clearly enough. Imperialism may not be manifest in the case of countries like Congo or Moldova but it is latent. It is latent because every country in the world is essentially capitalist - whether this takes the form of state administered capitalism or a so called mixed economy and it is the very nature of capital - its self expanding dynamic - that provides the essential driving force behind imperialism.

There is no such thing as the "non imperialist" part of the world. That is a load of incoherent bollocks dreamed up by romantic leftists with a cockeyed view of the world and a poor grasp of Marxian economics

[~Spectre]

I can't believe any self-proclaimed 'Socialist' would dare to defend this piece of shit, militaristic, anti-worker, nepotistic style of government and rule.

When the Soviet and American propaganda system collaborated, they had jedi mind trick type power.

[Per Levy]

Impossible to liquidate.
Small "capitalist" production existed even in Stalin's USSR.
The real question in,what is the DOMINANT mode of production.

the real question is, does the working class rule over the means of production and the state or is a militaristic state, that allows special economic zones and private capital to exploit said workers, in power?


North Korea is a very weird country.I'm not a fan of Juche or KIS/KJI but i do think that it is indeed socialist.Some very fucked up socialism,but still.
It ain't capitalist,from what i know.

north korea is most defenetly not socialist, in name maybe but a lot of groups, partys and countries were/are socialist in name only.


Most likely but not necessarily.
For example,Chinese imperialism in Africa is different in many ways than American or French.

but its still imperialism aint it?

[~Spectre]

My favorite part of the "it's propaganda!!" defense, is that it never seems to apply to the part where capitalist news source calls North Korea "communist".

[robbo203]

My favorite part of the "it's propaganda!!" defense, is that it never seems to apply to the part where capitalist news source calls North Korea "communist".

How true. If the western capitalist media is to be distrusted as an information source then presumably also the western characterisation of North Korea as communist must also be distrusted. But the loyal defenders of North Korean state capitalism never think to mention this. One wonders why. Point is that both sides have a mutual interest in maintaining this illusion.

[Ravachol]

Christ, this bullshit again? :rolleyes:
Here, let the official DPRK website settle the issue for you:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/business.htm:



IKBC The International Korean Business Centre is a comprehensive one-stop service for worldwide companies and individuals interested to trade and explore opportunities with the DPR of Korea.

The DPR of Korea (North Korea) will become in the next years the most important hub for trading in North-East Asia.

Lowest labour cost in Asia.

Highly qualified, loyal and motivated personnel. Education, housing and health service is provided free to all citizens. As opposed to other Asian countries, worker's will not abandon their positions for higher salaries once they are trained.

Lowest taxes scheme in Asia. Especially for high-tech factories. Typical tax exemption for the first two years.

No middle agents. All business made directly with the government, state-owned companies. No middle agents.

Stable. A government with solid security and very stable political system, without corruption.

Full diplomatic relations with most EU members and rest of countries.

New market. Many areas of business and exclusive distribution of products (sole-distribution).

Transparant legal work. Legal procedures, intellectual rights, patents and warranties for investors settled.


Look how our workers ask for nothing, do as they are told, complain little! Look how we provide new markets for Capital to expand! Look how we guarantee the smoothing functioning of the gears of your particular enterprise through our stable government and guaranteed protection of intellectual property! Look how we are, in fact, a more efficient surplus-extraction machine than common liberal democracies.

That's basically what it says, that's basically how it functions and anyone paying lip service to that kind of bullshit in the name of "Look it's just like Red Alert with marching people and shouting dictators in aviator glasses fighting amerikkkan imperialism" is out of their minds and immediately disqualifies him or herself as a 'communist'.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

^And so we see, that the dictatorship is not a political one, but a personal one. The military bureaucracy and the KWP are determined to hold onto power and trample democracy, be it whether they fly the red flag, green flag or blue flag, they don't care.

[Revy]

Mongolia has like 2,6 mil people.Almost half of the pop. lives in the capital Ulan Bator.
Importing 100k immigrants simply couldn't have been possible wihthout either huge disruptions or huge infrastructural investments-like building a whole new city for these immigrants,even if 4 of them shared the same room.
So this article is most likely bullshit.
100k workers...:laugh:

Also,does DPRK not have "special economic zones" too?
WTF would they export their workers to Mongolia(!) of all places,i don't understand.
This just doesn't make sense...
Mongolia has like 2 railways and is landlocked.It would have been smarter to "export" them to Shenzhen or some other coastal Chinese industrial center...

I call this story bullshit.

You misread the article or didn't read it at all. It said 100,000 North Koreans are employed in Russia, China and Mongolia, not in Mongolia alone. Most of those might be in China, so you really have no argument by saying "It would be smarter to move them to China". They did. And they moved them to Mongolia as well.

[Demogorgon]

What are you talking about?
I am referring to its disastrous policy of autarky. That wasn't imposed on it be "imperialism". Large numbers of states were happy to trade with North Korea. Whenever it allows limited trade there is always a scramble to get in on it. America and its allies aren't stopping them from doing that. It was the North Korean Governments own choice to cut itself off from the outside world and its people are suffering for it.


These projects were done while the USSR was still there.
And how exactly did the existence of the USSR excuse the wasting of vast amounts of resources?

[tir1944]

I won't be awarding you any points for guessing why.
Why?



The class nature of a state is not determined by whichever mode of production is dominant, but rather by which class is the ruling class (i.e. which class holds political power), and to determine this we need to observe which class' interests are represented by the state overall.
This is nonsense.There can't be a country where the dominant MoP is socialist,with a capitalist ruling class.There are of course only 2 main classes.



So state control of the economy with little to no workers' control and political power is socialism to you? Haha, holy shit.
Question A:How do you know that worker's have no control and political power.
Also yes,i did say that it's a rather "fucked up" socialism.
If it ain't socialism,what is it then?


are state-owned enterprises in capitalist societies an example of socialism to you? If not, why not?
No, because they "operate" in the market system and produce for profit.


Imperialism may not be manifest in the case of countries like Congo or Moldova but it is latent.
This is bullshit.Mumbo-jumbo fortune telling and guessing,not a Marxist analysis.
How,pray tell,is there latent(!) imperialism in Moldova? Imperialism,for fuck's sake,is not Hepatitis C,but a natural result of capitalist development.
Moldova can never become imperialist and never will.
Latent imperialism...:rolleyes:



It is latent because every country in the world is essentially capitalist - whether this takes the form of state administered capitalism or a so called mixed economy and it is the very nature of capital - its self expanding dynamic - that provides the essential driving force behind imperialism.
This also doesn't make sense because Moldovan capital won't and can't "expand" singificantly.Moldova or Somalia won't be imperialist-they can't be.


There is no such thing as the "non imperialist" part of the world.
Correct,because the whole world (or almost the whole world) is caught in the pawn of worldwide imperialism.



That is a load of incoherent bollocks dreamed up by romantic leftists with a cockeyed view of the world and a poor grasp of Marxian economics
Whatever...


I am referring to its disastrous policy of autarky.
What autarky?


Large numbers of states were happy to trade with North Korea.
Name some of them and tell us the timeframe.



And how exactly did the existence of the USSR excuse the wasting of vast amounts of resources?
What wasting? Explain to me with concrete examples some of these alleged instances of "wasting"?



Anyway,point is.The average NK workers are probably yearning to go to work to such foreign factories because the pay is most likely much better.

[Thirsty Crow]

Anyway,point is.The average NK workers are probably yearning to go to work to such foreign factories because the pay is most likely much better.
Then it must be that such policies on behalf of the ruling elite of DPRK are indeed progressive. I mean, providing cheap labour for foreign capital, hello, it's socialism we're talking about here.

[Revy]

I'm guessing the workers are prevented from quitting and applying for citizenship in Mongolia. To force someone to work for you, is that not slavery?



The North Korean workers in the Eermel factory in Mongolia are given food and a place to sleep, but according to Eermel's export director, Bayar, their wages are paid to the North Korean government.
"We are transferring the money to the account of the light industry of North Korea," Bayar told Newsnight.
He said he did not know how much of the wages were given to the workers: "How they split - divide the salary - we don't know."Oh, food and a place to sleep is payment enough? While THEIR wages are given to the North Korean regime. This is just terrible.

[tir1944]

I mean, providing cheap labour for foreign capital, hello, it's socialism we're talking about here.
So when Ford opened up a factory in USSR in the 20s,did the country stop being socialist?



To force someone to work for you, is that not slavery?
How do you know that they're forced to work in Mongolia?


While THEIR wages are given to the parasitic capitalist DPRK regime. This is just terrible.
It's their "regime" too and that money will be used to pay for,among other things,imported foodstuffs which the country is short of.

[Per Levy]

It's their "regime" too and that money will be used to pay for,among other things,imported foodstuffs which the country is short of.

its not their regime, its not a proletarian regime, they have nothing to say in this regime, the regime rules over them.

[RED DAVE]

I mean, providing cheap labour for foreign capital, hello, it's socialism we're talking about here.
So when Ford opened up a factory in USSR in the 20s,did the country stop being socialist?That was far from the USSR's finest moment. It was done in order to gain technical know-how from the West. And, yes, by the late 1920s, the country was no longer a workers state.


To force someone to work for you, is that not slavery?
How do you know that they're forced to work in Mongolia?The article basically says so. Do you have counter-evidence? Do you really believe that the people who are doing this work volunteered?


While THEIR wages are given to the parasitic capitalist DPRK regime. This is just terrible
It's their "regime" tooOh really. Did the working class of the DPRK vote to put that pudgy little dictato – who just happens to be the son of the previous dictator (who was not pudgy), and who is trying to be the father of the next dictator (who is pudgy) – into office?


and that money will be used to pay for,among other things,imported foodstuffs which the country is short ofSo, again, did these workers volunteer to go to Mongolia and work in factories and permit their wages to be expropriated by the state and used according to a plan they didn't vote for?

RED DAVE

[tir1944]

And, yes, by the late 1920s, the country was no longer a workers state.
But during the NEP it was?


The article basically says so. Do you have counter-evidence?
Capitalist agitprop.:laugh:
Capitalist media has produced literally thousands of lies about the DPRK.
And no,unless the NK Government suddendly starts refuting capitalist mass-media lies about their country,i don't have "counter-evidence".


So, again, did these workers volunteer to go to Mongolia and work in factories and permit their wages to be expropriated by the state and used according to a plan they didn't vote for?
I'm certainly suspicious about their WHOLE wage being "expropriated" because that IIRC isn't the case in some other DPRK SEZs by the border with ROK.
Also the fact that they get food might actually be the only motivation for people who come from North Korean regions recently hit by flooding and food-shortages.

[RED DAVE]

I'm certainly suspicious about their WHOLE wage being "expropriated" because that IIRC isn't the case in some other DPRK SEZs by the border with ROK.The SEZ's are bad enough: capitalist infections invited into North Korea by its benevolent government, which is pimping it own workers on its own territory. Is it unlikely that it's doing it by "exporting" workers to Mongolia?


Also the fact that they get food might actually be the only motivation for people who come from North Korean regions recently hit by flooding and food-shortages.Do you read what you are writing? The DPRK is condemned in your own writing.

RED DAVE

[tir1944]

The SEZ's are bad enough: capitalist infections invited into North Korea by its benevolent government, which is pimping it own workers on its own territory.
But where's the "tech. know-how" part now?:laugh:
Also yeah,hard currency is needed.


Do you read what you are writing? The DPRK is condemned in your own writing.
No,how? It's not their fault that they're under siege and blockade by imperialism.The floods and the shitty general conditions of the arable land on the North is also not their fault.

[Thirsty Crow]

So when Ford opened up a factory in USSR in the 20s,did the country stop being socialist?The country was never socialist in any meaningful sense of the term (and by "meaningful" I refer to socialism being an entirely different mode of production from capitalism - devoid of wage labour and the existence of capital as a social relation). It's altogether a different problem that some "Marxists" babble about a transitional society, consequently a transitional mode of production, entirely different from both communism and capitalism while being achievable in one county alone, or in one regional bloc.



It's their "regime" too and that money will be used to pay for,among other things,imported foodstuffs which the country is short of.
I'm sorry, maybe I'm not getting you right, but are you prepared to defend such utter exploitation by which wage labourers do not even have control over the produce which they earn by their labour?

[eric922]

You know the defenders of North Korea are part of the reason the workers are so wary of us. I mean would you support someone if they were going around talking about how wonderful North Korea was?

[tir1944]

The country was never socialist in any meaningful sense of the term (and by "meaningful" I refer to socialism being an entirely different mode of production from capitalism - devoid of wage labour and the existence of capital as a social relation).
But it did have a dominant mode of production that wasn't capitalist,right?


It's altogether a different problem that some "Marxists" babble about a transitional society, consequently a transitional mode of production, entirely different from both communism and capitalism while being achievable in one county alone, or in one regional bloc.
If i'm not mistaken,"Marxists" such as Lenin spoke and wrote about this.
Socialism,as one comrade said,is a transitional "who will get who" time.


I'm sorry, maybe I'm not getting you right, but are you prepared to defend such utter exploitation by which wage labourers do not even have control over the produce which they earn by their labour?
That's not something nice,but it's how it is.
Hard currency is needly badly ,even for the most basic goods like oil for tractors etc.



I mean would you support someone if they were going around talking about how wonderful North Korea was?
One needs to be pretty crazy to talk about how wonderful NK is,but that doesn't mean communists should spit on it and mock it all the time.
Also,communists have to stand up for DPRK in the situation of imperialist enroachment.

[Thirsty Crow]

But it did have a dominant mode of production that wasn't capitalist,right?
No, it didn't. That's the whole point. There's more to capitalism than individual owners of the means of production. Apparently, that's too hard to grasp for some communists.



If i'm not mistaken,"Marxists" such as Lenin spoke and wrote about this.
Socialism,as one comrade said,is a transitional "who will get who" time.Yes, Lenin did speak about this in fact, and made an utter mess. Really, to talk about a transitional society, is to misunderstand some of the basic points of Marxism as developed in Marx's own works.



That's not something nice,but it's how it is.
Hard currency is needly badly ,even for the most basic goods like oil for tractors etc.So, then you'd be ready to admit that to talk about a workers' state in this case would amount to a farce, right?

[tir1944]

There's more to capitalism than individual owners of the means of production.
Ok.
What exactly?



Really, to talk about a transitional society, is to misunderstand some of the basic points of Marxism as developed in Marx's own works.
I'd appreciate if you could expand a bit on this...



So, then you'd be ready to admit that to talk about a workers' state in this case would amount to a farce, right?
Depends on what you mean by a "worker's state" i guess.
There isn't a clear definition of the term...

[RED DAVE]

You know the defenders of North Korea are part of the reason the workers are so wary of us. I mean would you support someone if they were going around talking about how wonderful North Korea was?Yeah. I'm sure it would really go over well at an Occupation.

RED DAVE

[Demogorgon]

What autarky?
In case you don't know autarky means pursuing a policy of "self reliance", utilising domestic resources and avoiding trade. Do you know what Juche is?


Name some of them and tell us the timeframe.Most countries were willing to trade with it, just as they were perfectly prepared to trade with the other "communist" countries.

If you want current examples, they could trade with China readily now and indeed with South Korea as they do to the limited extent the North Korean Government allows. Indeed given how reliant it is on South Korean aid rebalancing the relationship on slightly less one-sided terms might be a good idea.


What wasting? Explain to me with concrete examples some of these alleged instances of "wasting"?

The Ryugyong Hotel springs to mind. 2% of GDP blown on a single building. Apparently construction has resumed again at further expense using Egyptian contractors. Even presuming they fix the structural flaws, what precisely is the building going to be good for? Perhaps you think it wasn't a waste of resources though. Tell us what good it will do?

[Demogorgon]

Capitalist agitprop.:laugh:
Capitalist media has produced literally thousands of lies about the DPRK.
And no,unless the NK Government suddendly starts refuting capitalist mass-media lies about their country,i don't have "counter-evidence".

"I don't have any counter evidence at all, and cannot come up with a reason to disregard the source other than name calling, but I am still convinced I am right because the only truthful source about North Korea is the North Korean Government."

My goodness, I am conviced!

[thefinalmarch]

Why?
Surely you could have answered that question yourself by now.


This is nonsense.There can't be a country where the dominant MoP is socialist,with a capitalist ruling class.There are of course only 2 main classes.
You're confusing correlation with causality. Belgium for example is a bourgeois state because the state acts in the interests of the bourgeoisie, not simply because the vast majority of production is achieved through the capitalist mode of production. Although the capitalist mode of production is dominant and this does influence to some extent which class the state acts in the interests of, this fact is not the ultimate reason for the Belgian state acting in bourgeois interests.


Question A:How do you know that worker's have no control and political power.
It's pretty fucking obvious. I can't believe you're actually asking me this.


Also yes,i did say that it's a rather "fucked up" socialism.
It's not socialism at all.


If it ain't socialism,what is it then?
Capitalism, for the reasons outlined here and in your "State capitalism" thread.


No, because they "operate" in the market system and produce for profit.
North Korean state enterprises buy labour from workers, don't they?

[Sheepy]

Doesn't surprise me. Fucking hate Kim and his ugly regime (wish they'd stop calling it 'Communist')
They don't, they dropped the monicker and openly rejects the idea of Communism since the 2009 Constitution. The ideology they follow is "Juche" which is pretty much State Capitalist Autarky.

[阿部高和]

They don't, they dropped the monicker and openly rejects the idea of Communism since the 2009 Constitution. The ideology they follow is "Juche" which is pretty much State Capitalist Autarky.

Precisely, Juche is military centered society where those who control the military control society, not one based on the authority of workers or proletarians.