Moses and Monotheism

[elijahcraig]

Has anyone read this? do you agree? disagree?

Here is a short summary I found on the internet:


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Moses and Monotheism > Customer Review #1: Religion as the manifestation of the collective unconscious

This is the last book written by Freud. Moses and Monotheism was published in totum in 1939, the year Freud died in London, where he got residence along with his family to scape the Nazi persecution against Jews in Austria, where he thought he was safe.

The hypotheses raised in the book are polemical, and this seems to be a kind of a Freudian trademark, and they are nothing less than:

1- Moses was in fact Egyptian and worked as a general in the staff of the Egyptian pharaoh Ikhenaton, who urged the untill then polytheists Egyptians to adore Aton as only God and to adopt monotheism. When the pharaoh died, Moses tried to convince the Jews working at the northeast region of Egypt that they were the chosen people and to follow him. Many of the theories present in this book are in fact development of a hypothesis already raised by Freud in his earlier book "Totem and Taboo" and represents a serious attempt at demolishing the foundations of both the Mosaic religion as Christianity. The idea is that a band of brothers opressed by the father in fact killed him, and out of a guilty feeling payed tribute to him in a series of disguised primitive rituals to honor him in group.

2 - The circuncisiom was already practise at Egypt and was not something invented by Jeovah as a sign of the alliance (covenant)between Him and the Jewish people. Also, in Freuds hypothesis, Jeovah was a demi-god of the Volcanoes and many of his later carachteristics were later adoptions of Egyptian religious tendencies by means of the Levites, who, again in Freuds view, were not the son of Levi (one of the ten tribes of Israel) but rather were also of Egyptian origin and followers of Moses, who in fact was killed by the Egyptian jews, etc...

[Pete]

Point #2 is irrelevant, as the Hebrew (Judaism came later) in Egypt where not circumsized until they wandered around aimlessly for awhile in Sinai.

There are later theories that Yhwh was the combination of a Medonite (with whom Moses supposively took refuge) and a Caanite god. There was Yhwh from the Medonite's, and Elohim from the Caanites, which combine to be Yhwh (pronounced Jehovah in German, Yahweh in English) Elohim, or the LORD God.

I think we must remember that Deutoronomy, which is the light that the Hebrew Bible is written in, was only created at the earliest during Hezikah's rule in Israel, and at the latest during Josaih's. This means that all of the "history" that we read in the Hebrew Bible is baised towards the reforms of Josaih, that they are good, and all of the traditions enshrined in the book are those present right before the Babylonian Exile (except Genius was most likely redacted during the Exile, which is when Judaism came into being).

-Pete

[BuyOurEverything]

Elohim from the Caanites

I thought that elohim just meant 'king' in hebrew and was kind of a nickname for god like hashem. I don't think it was the name of a Canaanite god, although I could be wrong.

[elijahcraig]

El is the preceding word of the gods Abraham worshipped in Beersheeba, and other places.

Abraham was very much a polytheist.

[Pete]

Of course Abraham was, and he was from the heart of Sumer, on the other side of the Euphrates. It was, infact, up until the days of Josiah that the Hebrew where, in pratice, polythesists. Of course from time to time they where strict monothesists, but even a casual reading of Exodus or Deutoronmy shows that God is "a jealous god." He fights against the Egyptian gods in Exodus, and is quite a bastard if you ask me.

Elohim may not have been Caanite, but from Caanan (which I should have said). El does mean "god" in general, and the "im" is a plural ending, which is rather wierd, but consider how kings called themselves "we" instead of "I" it makes basic sense, and I wouldn't be suprised if Christians used this to represent their godhead.

Another point of interest, the Hebrews had, even in the Temple at Jerusalem, pillars with breasts called Asheras (spellings may differ) which were God's (I am not religious, but in respect to those who are I tend not to blasphem much) consort. Interesting eh?

[Pro-MyIdeals]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 11:58 PM

Elohim from the Caanites

I thought that elohim just meant 'king' in hebrew and was kind of a nickname for god like hashem. I don't think it was the name of a Canaanite god, although I could be wrong.
melech is king in hebrew...(the ch is pronounced with the chhhh, kinda like you have cream cheese stuck in your throat)

[elijahcraig]

Another point of interest, the Hebrews had, even in the Temple at Jerusalem, pillars with breasts called Asheras (spellings may differ) which were God's (I am not religious, but in respect to those who are I tend not to blasphem much) consort. Interesting eh?

I'd like to hear more about this, do you know of a link which describes this further? Or do you know more about it?

[Pete]

It came to me through a very knowledgable professor at my university. Deut refers to them in passing (something about "You must destroy all pillars"), but as I said before it was either "discovered" or written during the days of Josiah's reforms, and reflected that time period.

[redstar2000]

Since it's pretty clear that the Jews were not monotheists until after their return from the Babylonian exile, Freud's hypothesis is just more of his usual nonsense.

As I understand the matter, it is now thought that the Jews were always an indigenous people to Palestine--no Abraham, no Moses, no "conquest of the promised land", no "empire" of David and Solomon, etc.

The motive for those myths was to "legitimize" the presence of the Jews in Palestine because, in those days, "legitimacy" was only conferred by conquest.

Kind of like now.

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[BuyOurEverything]

QUOTE (BuyOurEverything @ Nov 2 2003, 11:58 PM)
QUOTE
Elohim from the Caanites


I thought that elohim just meant 'king' in hebrew and was kind of a nickname for god like hashem. I don't think it was the name of a Canaanite god, although I could be wrong.

melech is king in hebrew...(the ch is pronounced with the chhhh, kinda like you have cream cheese stuck in your throat)

Oh never mind. I was thinking of elochenu, another one of the many names for god.

[elijahcraig]

Since it's pretty clear that the Jews were not monotheists until after their return from the Babylonian exile, Freud's hypothesis is just more of his usual nonsense.

How is this clear?

Have you read this RS?

[redstar2000]

If you look at the early books of the Bible, it's obvious that Yahweh was a tribal god, one of many. The Jews worshiped him preferentially but not exclusively.

It was, most likely, during the Babylonian exile that some unknown Jewish theologians invented a single, universal god.

After the return, the first "major" book of the Bible was actually written down--probably Deuteronomy--by the restored priesthood.

Of course, there was no "exodus" from Egypt and consequently no "Moses" and no evidence at all that the Jews were ever even aware of the rather odd monotheistic king of Egypt, much less picked up any of his ideas. Indeed, that strange king had been dead for seven centuries before the Jews became exclusively monotheistic.

Like I say, Freud was an even worse historian than he was a psychologist.

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[elijahcraig]

If you look at the early books of the Bible, it's obvious that Yahweh was a tribal god, one of many. The Jews worshiped him preferentially but not exclusively.

I would say he was a national god, yes. He represented the one tribe--as many religions at the time used... But he was not "one of many". That is what makes Judaism so unique is that it is the starting point of Monotheism (along with Freud's theory of course)--the third stage of the religious spectrum.


It was, most likely, during the Babylonian exile that some unknown Jewish theologians invented a single, universal god.

"Invented"? How? Why does such an idea arise?

Akenaten was the first to utilize monotheism, not the jews.


Of course, there was no "exodus" from Egypt

That's a bold claim. Can you prove this?


and consequently no "Moses" and no evidence at all that the Jews were ever even aware of the rather odd monotheistic king of Egypt, much less picked up any of his ideas. Indeed, that strange king had been dead for seven centuries before the Jews became exclusively monotheistic.

HAVE YOU READ FREUD"S WORK??? Because it SOUNDS like you are completely unaware of his essays.

[redstar2000]

But he was not "one of many".

He certainly was. Several of the Jewish kings are specifically criticized for allowing temples to other gods in Jerusalem and even worshiping at those temples.


"Invented"? How? Why does such an idea arise?

Akenaten was the first to utilize monotheism, not the Jews.

Yes, Ikhanaton did it first...but his monotheism (and his capital city) were abandoned shortly after his death (1358BCE). This was around 700 years before the Jews returned from their Babylonian exile.

There's nothing to say that the idea of monotheism couldn't be independently invented any number of times.


That's a bold claim. Can you prove this?

It's rather the other way around; there's no independent evidence--not even a fragment of pottery--to indicate that anyone spent any significant time in the Sinai Peninsula within 500 years of the supposed "date" of the "exodus".

There are no Egyptian records of an "exodus" or any significant presence of "Hebrews" in Egypt at all. No records have been discovered in other advanced empires of the time to suggest that any such event took place...the "Hebrews" are barely mentioned at all.

Only the "northern kingdom"--known as the "land of Omri" after its most famous king--actually makes a significant appearance in the Assyrian records. It lasted perhaps a century or two at most before being conquered and destroyed by Assyria.

The real history of the ancient near East is an interesting subject, elijah, but you can pretty much forget the Bible as being of any use.


HAVE YOU READ FREUD"S WORK??? Because it SOUNDS like you are completely unaware of his essays.

Why does that matter? You posted a summary of his hypothesis...and I saw immediately that it was nonsense. To be fair, it may have looked more plausible at the time he wrote it...even as late as 1940, many "events" in the Bible were still thought to be "historical". But we know better now.

There is no reason to read the original work...unless you are writing a study of Freud's mistakes.

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[Pete]

Since it's pretty clear that the Jews were not monotheists until after their return from the Babylonian exile, Freud's hypothesis is just more of his usual nonsense.

Actually that is incorrect. They where monothesists formally before the Exile, and off an on in reality in the days since the conquest (which has some architecural evidence to back it up...pillaged cities around the time, but of course that was also the time of the infamous "sea peoples").

I can agree with you on Freud though.


The motive for those myths was to "legitimize" the presence of the Jews in Palestine because, in those days, "legitimacy" was only conferred by conquest.

Their are theories stating that David had the story of Abraham created to legitmize his conquests, and Deut was "found" by Josiah in the decades preceeding the Babylonian Exile, although Judaism is different than the tribal worships of the Israelites, it sprouts from there as Christianity comes from Judaism.

Some of your other points, RedStar, are not valid, just as the Bible's account is not valid, but what is the point of arguing them? Judaism is centred around a vassal treaty between mortals and some jealous, bloodthirsty god, which is a creation of their imagination (which could be explained by a slightly Freudian theory if you cut out the sexual bullshit ^_^)

-Pete

[Hawker]

So basically to sum it all up,Freud theory say's that there is absolutely no God.

[elijahcraig]

You might want to read Totem and Taboo or Illusion for that^, but in essence, yes: this is just a continuation of that theme.