Vacations under communism?

[rundontwalk]

This might seem like a silly question, but under a communist system how would recreational travel work? For instance, would people get a certain amount of vacation time per year? And, if they do, how would they travel to say India (or wherever) for a few weeks?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Let's achieve a communist system first, and then the matter of vacations can be taken up by the people living in that system.

[thefinalmarch]

This might seem like a silly question, but under a communist system how would recreational travel work? For instance, would people get a certain amount of vacation time per year?
We aren't here to make blueprints for society. However, considering that workplaces in such a society would be organised along more-or-less purely democratic lines by their workers, I doubt they would ever vote to implement a cap on the amount of time they can take off, unless there was some sort of crisis at hand which necessitated a drastic increase in productivity.

Who really cares if workers take months or years off at a time, for example? Workers presently spend approx. 50-75% of the labour-time they sell to the boss in return for their means of subsistence (wages) creating value to be extracted as surplus-value, aka profits. Taking off what would be considered a lot of time today would simply not matter in an economy not directed at ensuring the realisation of the profits of our exploiters.

And then just what is to stop workers from just not performing labour entirely?

The objection is known. "If the existence of each is guaranteed, and if the necessity of earning wages does not compel men to work, nobody will work. Every man will lay the burden of his work on another if he is not forced to do it himself." Let us first remark the incredible levity with which this objection is raised, without taking into consideration that the question is in reality merely to know, on the one hand, whether you effectively obtain by wage-work the results you aim at; and, on the other hand, whether voluntary work is not already more productive to-day than work stimulated by wages....

What is most striking in this levity is that even in capitalist Political Economy you already find a few writers compelled by facts to doubt the axiom put forth by the founders of their science, that the threat of hunger is man's best stimulant for productive work. ....

They fear that without compulsion the masses will not work.

But during our own lifetime have we not heard the same fears expressed twice? By the anti-abolitionists in America before Negro emancipation, and by the Russian nobility before the liberation of the serfs? "Without the whip the Negro will not work," said the anti-abolitionist. "Free from their master's supervision the serfs will leave the fields uncultivated," said the Russian serf-owners. It was the refrain of the French noblemen in 1789, the refrain of the Middle Ages, a refrain as old as the world, and we shall hear it every time there is a question of sweeping away an injustice. And each time actual facts give it the lie. The liberated peasant of 1792 ploughed with a wild energy unknown to his ancestors, the emancipated Negro works more than his fathers, and the Russian peasant, after having honoured the honeymoon of his emancipation by celebrating Fridays as well as Sundays, has taken up work with as much eagerness as his liberation was the more complete. There, where the soil is his, he works desperately; that is the exact word for it. The anti-abolitionist refrain can be of value to slave-owners; as to the slaves themselves, they know what it is worth, as they know its motive.

Moreover, Who but economists taught us that if a wage-earner's work is but indifferent, an intense and productive work is only obtained from a man who sees his wealth increase in proportion to his efforts? All hymns sung in honour of private property can be reduced to this axiom.

For it is remarkable that when economists, wishing to celebrate the blessings of property, show us how an unproductive, marshy, or stony soil is clothed with rich harvests when cultivated by the peasant proprietor, they in nowise prove their thesis in favour of private property. By admitting: that the only guarantee not to be robbed of the fruits of your labour is to possess the instruments of labour--which is true--the economists only prove that man really produces most when he works in freedom, when he has a certain choice in his occupations, when he has no overseer to impede him, and lastly, when he sees his work bringing in a profit to him and to others who work like him, but bringing in nothing to idlers. This is all we can deduct from their argumentation, and we maintain the same ourselves.


And, if they do, how would they travel to say India (or wherever) for a few weeks?
They presumably would drive, or travel by public transport or taxi to the airport. They would then check in, and board the plane shortly after that.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I am not intended to offend you,but man I've seen tons of threads about _____ under communism.IT IS COMMUNISM!!Not Fascism!What's next? Toilet's style on communism?:DEverything on communism would be perfect,believe me.

[00000000000]

Despite the authoritarian nature of some old 'communist' rulers (something of a contradiction in terms, I know), I doubt that a truly communist society would have rigid restrictions and guidelines on leisure time.
But then who knows, we'll see when it gets here

[thriller]

If your fellow workers are cool people, whenever you feel like it! I also think there would not be "vacations". To me, vacations now are times when someone takes off work to spend needed time with family, travel the world, and get away from a shitty job. Considering people will not be tied to wage slavery under communism, people would not have to take time off to make up for lost time while working. The only reason "vacations" are so valuable is because the bosses use it as a carrot.

[Commissar Rykov]

The whole point of achieving a stateless, classless society is so that Humanity can pursue the things it enjoys and actually enjoy activities that will develop a complete humanbeing. In a capitalist system it is completely impossible to pursue the things you want because it is an economic impossibility most of the time thus I see no problems with vacations as it will once again fall into the category that we are working to provide for the collective whole not working ludicrous hours to provide profit for our Bourgeoisie Masters. When we discuss communism it is simply more than just a massive economic shift it is a complete paradigm shift of society as a whole because of the change in material conditions.

[tir1944]

Can we even say that Communism is a "system"?

[Le Rouge]

everything on communism would be perfect,believe me.

warning warning utopist detected!!

[ColonelCossack]

How can you have holidays when there isn't really any concept of jobs in the first place?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think we can easily say that "coach" seating in planes would be abolished. The idea that without capitalism you might be able to fly on a 17 hour trip without developing bed-sores on your ass and bloodclots in your legs, that you wouldn't have to go through a bunch of security checkpoints and you wouldn't be shown the movie "Zookeeper"... is enough to convince anyone whose made a long international flight of ending capitalism.

Did I mention I just took my first long international trip:lol:

First class passengers had what looked like personal saunas to sit in, whereas I had a kid kicking tha back of my seat and the person in front of me leaning back so that the back of her head was 6 inches from my face for 17 hours.

[Nox]

First class passengers had what looked like personal saunas to sit in, whereas I had a kid kicking tha back of my seat and the person in front of me leaning back so that the back of her head was 6 inches from my face for 17 hours.

Tut tut, should have got first class tickets!

[Commissar Rykov]

I think we can easily say that "coach" seating in planes would be abolished. The idea that without capitalism you might be able to fly on a 17 hour trip without developing bed-sores on your ass and bloodclots in your legs, that you wouldn't have to go through a bunch of security checkpoints and you wouldn't be shown the movie "Zookeeper"... is enough to convince anyone whose made a long international flight of ending capitalism.

Did I mention I just took my first long international trip:lol:

First class passengers had what looked like personal saunas to sit in, whereas I had a kid kicking tha back of my seat and the person in front of me leaning back so that the back of her head was 6 inches from my face for 17 hours.
That will teach you for being poor. If you weren't so lazy you wouldn't have to reside with the rabble in the back.:lol:

[EvilRedGuy]

warning warning utopist detected!!


All communists are Utopians, idiot. Utopian is a good thing.

Anyways people will talk with each other and decide when to get vacation/how long/etc. No restrictions, restrictions in a communist society is like freedom in a fascist/capitalist society, it doesn't work together.

[tir1944]

Lol no.
:laugh:
Read Marx and his critique of Utopian Socialism.
Be careful who you're calling an idiot,because it can make you look really stupid sometimes.Just sayin':laugh:

[Kornilios Sunshine]

warning warning utopist detected!!
Warning warning, idiot detected!!

[EvilRedGuy]

Lol no.
:laugh:
Read Marx and his critique of Utopian Socialism.
Be careful who you're calling an idiot,because it can make you look really stupid sometimes.Just sayin':laugh:

Say that to the ancient utopian capitalists.

Utopian just means you have a idea to build upon.

[tfb]

I think that the question of whether there would be vacations under communism is distracting us from answering a more burning question: will there still be winter under communism?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I think that the question of whether there would be vacations under communism is distracting us from answering a more burning question: will there still be winter under communism?
ROFL. :laugh:

[Psy]

This might seem like a silly question, but under a communist system how would recreational travel work? For instance, would people get a certain amount of vacation time per year? And, if they do, how would they travel to say India (or wherever) for a few weeks?
In a leisure society probably the other way, the productive collective wants so much labor and the workers collectively creates a work schedule, outside that schedule would be what we would call vacation this would most likely be far longer then currently.

To travel to India you'd simply go there, there would be no barrier stopping travel. The workers at the airport would not care why you are going to India, to them you are just a person to transport to India because you have booked a flight to India.

[thefinalmarch]

Utopian just means you have a idea to build upon.
It appears both you and tir1944 are confused as to what each other is referring to when you say 'utopian'.

'Utopian socialism' is a specific term used to describe the many socialist theories that arose before the "scientific socialism" of Marx and Engels became predominant. Utopian socialist theories are those that "do not concern themselves with how to get there, presuming that the power of their own vision is sufficient, or with who the agent of the struggle for socialism may be, and, instead of deriving their ideal from criticism of existing conditions, they pluck their vision ready-made from the creator’s own mind." (http://marxists.org/subject/utopian/index.htm)

'Utopian' in general refers to an idea which is considered ideal or visionary, but is actually impractical. A better term to describe yourself would be 'idealistic' (not in the Marxist sense; 'idealistic' simply states you seek the most optimal conditions for humanity), which doesn't come with the associated extra baggage of having your ideas considered impractical.

[thefinalmarch]

Read Marx and his critique of Utopian Socialism.
Actually I believe you're referring to Engels' critique of utopian socialism.

[∞]

Everyday is a holiday. It will rain gumdrops and skittles. Unicorns everywhere.

[Decommissioner]

This might seem like a silly question, but under a communist system how would recreational travel work? For instance, would people get a certain amount of vacation time per year? And, if they do, how would they travel to say India (or wherever) for a few weeks?

The average person under communism will not waste their lives laboring. With all employed and without having to produce profit for capitalists, we will work far less. It's feasible one can complete a lifetimes worth of their socially necessary labor within just years, spending the rest of their life to whatever their passion is (or just not working)

Living under communism is basically like on big vacation is what I am trying to say. Even under the worst of circumstances, if you feel overworked you have democratic say, you actually will have a say when asserting you need a vacation. It wont be like you will starve and lose everything if say for example you leave your workplace because you didn't get vacations, because you will still be provided for.

[Zav]

We aren't here to make blueprints for society.
This is true, however if we did, we would get a lot farther.

[thefinalmarch]

This is true, however if we did, we would get a lot farther.
Allow me to quote myself in another thread:

...we are not and should not be architects for a new society. In our capacity as revolutionaries, all we can do is theorise and "educate, agitate, organise". We are not here to draw up blueprints. We can speculate, but ultimately it will be the workers for themselves who decide the fate of society.


...the fate of our political project and indeed that of the world does not depend on the actions of leftist militants today. Only the material circumstances in a future society will determine whether or not certain proposals we make today ever materialise. Even then, many of our proposals today will, in the future, be made independently of us.

[thriller]

I think that the question of whether there would be vacations under communism is distracting us from answering a more burning question: will there still be winter under communism?

I hope so! Tis my favorite season.