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Comrade-Z
13th October 2011, 08:38
"The message is that there is no message": Countering apolitical hogwash in OWS

Many people participating in Occupy Wall Street and elsewhere have said, "We don't want demands." There are also people (some of them even self-described "anarchists") participating in Occupy Wall Street who are saying things like, "the message is that there's no message."

We're not writing a Seinfeld skit here people! Either these "no message, no demands" people are intentionally staging a self-mocking theater of the absurd, or they have unfortunately overshot an important lesson of the revolutionary left in the 20th century.

They are correct in suspecting that posing demands often corrupts movements and organizations, but they clearly do not understand why, or what to do about it.

The Ghost of Anarchism Past

It's a pity that "anarchists" are behaving this way, really. Once upon a time, anarchists knew how to win demands. Here's a small passage from Franz Borkenau's "The Spanish Cockpit," page 35:

"...the CNT rejected all sorts of agreements with the employers. Strikes ought to lead, in their conception of trade unionism, to the de facto application of better wages and shorter hours by the employers, but without any obligation, on the side of the workers, to keep to a settlement for a given time. The state of war between employers and wage-earners must be continual...With the creation of the CNT...Spanish anarchism transformed itself into 'anarcho-syndicalism'. The strangest thing about it is that it [anarchism] continued to exist successfully under these conditions. Other labour movements, such as that of Norway, have lived through the same attempts to create a trade-union movement based on syndicalist ideas; but invariably, after a time, the trade unions reverted to the typical trade-unionist mentality, to regular settlements with the employers, to the keeping of strike funds and social insurance funds, to completely pacific methods of action. Only Spain makes an exception. The Spanish CNT is perhaps the one genuinely revolutionary trade-union movement of large size in the world."

The lesson I draw from this is that you can make "demands," but it very much matters about the way that you go about doing it.

If you wish to avoid reformist corruption, as the CNT successfully managed to do, you cannot formulate your demands as proposed agreements with employers/the State/etc., not even implicitly, and, as shocking as it sounds, you must voice your demands in the language of extortion rather than "fairness" or justice."

The Pitfalls of Demands

If your demands are essentially proposed agreements with the class enemy, then what do you do if you win some of your demands, at least partially? Then you've got to hold your part of the bargain. What the capitalists and their State giveth, they can take away. That is the constant reminder. Time after time again, this dynamic tends to lead to reformism and degeneration into bread-&-butter unionism and tepid social democracy.

You can deny that you owe the class enemy any part of any bargain, as the CNT did (and thus avoid becoming reformist), but it only rings true insofar as you have formulated your "demands" in the language of extortion, not justice.

Opportunistic Appeals to Bourgeois Morality

We all know perfectly well that any compromise with the capitalist class or its State is still going to be unfair. True "justice" will only be possible when the working class directs its own future. Yet, we understandably feel the temptation to opportunistically appeal to the persisting bourgeois sensibilities of the majority of the population and say that they should support this or that demand because it is "fair" or "just." No, it is not fair or just. It marginally improves the position of the working class and weakens the capitalist class. That is why we demand X, Y, and Z. But we don't want to say that for fear of alienating supporters with bourgeois sensibilities (the vast majority still), who won't support the demand if it is about unabashedly strengthening the working class rather than about some moral idea of "justice."

If we have formulated demands in the language of justice, and then we turn around like the CNT and say to the class enemy, "We owe you nothing. The class war goes on," we appear to be dishonest and unjust. Bourgeois commentators get to take the "justice" discourse that we have promoted and rub it back in our face, charging us as "unjust extortionists."

Very well. Since this is the response we will be met with anyways, why don't we openly proclaim ourselves as extortionists for the working class?

Doing Demands The Right Way

When advocating demands among the OWS movement, our language should explicitly be, "We, the working class, are realistically not yet united and class conscious enough to take power ourselves, but the working class is strong enough right now to extort X and Y from the capitalist class and its political servants in the State. Tomorrow, if we are stronger, we shall try to extort Z as well, and so on. We will give the capitalist class and its State nothing in return, ever—not even a promise of social peace that we know, and they know, we have no intention of keeping insofar as it suits us to not do so."

This suggestion is hardly novel. I do not wish to appeal to the Communist Manifesto as holy writ, but merely to establish a precedent. The Communist Manifesto had basically the same approach with its list of 10 immediate demands in chapter II. The last thing Marx would have done would have been to opportunistically appeal to bourgeois concepts of morality and justice. No, the demands expressed in this portion of the Communist Manifesto are formulated clearly in the spirit of giving the working class a position of greater strength to work from. That's it. No talk of "justice." Marx even says that the demands "cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production." Marx acknowledges that, from the standpoint of bourgeois morality, we communists will always be despotic extortionists. So be it!

Similarly, "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions." Enough stealth politics!

You might object that the working class in the U.S. right now is not strong enough to win such demands on its own in this way, and that it can only win demands by appealing to the moral sensibilities of bourgeois sympathizers. (Much the same argument could have been voiced in 1848 when Marx wrote the Manifesto).

Very well, you might win demands if you are willing to opportunistically appeal to (and strengthen) bourgeois ideas of moral justice (and concomitantly weaken support for the idea that there is a distinctly class nature to morality, and that morality does not just Platonically float up in the air free from class interests), but you have not made the working class stronger. You have only made the working class dependent on bourgeois sympathizers rather than the capitalist class directly. What the bourgeois sympathizers giveth, they can take away. Now you cannot offend the bourgeois sympathizers in your movement, or you will lose the critical support for your reforms, and the capitalist class will repeal those reforms. Now you must de-radicalize your organization. You must follow the signpost pointing to the putrid cemetery that says, "Here lies Tony Blair's Labour...(and too many other erstwhile revolutionary political organizations to count)."

Conclusion

The people in the "Occupy..." movement who refuse to pose demands to the existing order, and who enjoin others to refuse to do likewise, are not entirely off the mark. There are obvious historical reasons to be wary of the dynamics of making demands to those in power; it has corrupted movement after movement.

However, a movement must obviously have goals and a message, and understandably many people will not be satisfied with "the political and economic rule of the working class" as an immediate goal. Very well, then. Let us formulate goals and make demands on the capitalist class and its State, but let it be clear that we do so not from the standpoint of pleading with powers possessing the moral authority to dispense "justice" in the form of compromises with our class enemy, but rather from the standpoint of extorting whatever we think we are strong enough to attain from this class enemy for the meantime, in preparation for greater extortions from the capitalist class and its State in the future...and eventually the wholesale overthrow of this obsolete class and the establishment of the political and economic rule of the working class.

black magick hustla
13th October 2011, 09:44
so pray and tell, what are some demands that could be done?

Le Socialiste
13th October 2011, 10:01
While I agree with a lot of what you've posted here, I must take issue with your statement concerning the role of anarchists in the movement:


Many people participating in Occupy Wall Street and elsewhere have said, "We don't want demands." There are also people (some of them even self-described "anarchists") participating in Occupy Wall Street who are saying things like, "the message is that there's no message."


It's a pity that "anarchists" are behaving this way, really. Once upon a time, anarchists knew how to win demands

What exactly do you base this on? You point out that many self-described "anarchists" have taken up the slogan "the message is that there is no message", but here it seems like something you mention in passing. With little to no contextual evidence to support this, you come across as taking a jab at a particular camp of the revolutionary left without the necessary proof. I realize this is a rather minor point to make, but your focus on these "anarchists" doesn't entirely line up with the rest of the post, which goes on to detail what the stance and manner of the OWS movement should be. You praise the "no compromise" stance of the CNT, but this still fails to justify what exactly you meant by "It's a pity that 'anarchists' are behaving this way, really." Unless you can provide the evidence needed to prove there is a significant or sizable anarchist presence that has taken on this message of no demands, you end up coming across as attacking a belief - not the people inside the OWS movement themselves.

Comrade-Z
13th October 2011, 10:37
so pray and tell, what are some demands that could be done?

I leave that deliberately open-ended because it will vary from situation to situation and group to group. It will depend on how strong the group realistically judges itself and how much it thinks it can get away with extorting from the class enemy. (In many cases, unfortunately nothing, seeing how weak the left is right now). My article was mainly addressing how one should go about making demands in a way that avoids the risk of reformist corruption that I think some OWS people are reacting against, while still allowing for clear goals and messages to be enunciated.


What exactly do you base this on? You point out that many self-described "anarchists" have taken up the slogan "the message is that there is no message", but here it seems like something you mention in passing. With little to no contextual evidence to support this, you come across as taking a jab at a particular camp of the revolutionary left without the necessary proof. I realize this is a rather minor point to make, but your focus on these "anarchists" doesn't entirely line up with the rest of the post, which goes on to detail what the stance and manner of the OWS movement should be. You praise the "no compromise" stance of the CNT, but this still fails to justify what exactly you meant by "It's a pity that 'anarchists' are behaving this way, really." Unless you can provide the evidence needed to prove there is a significant or sizable anarchist presence that has taken on this message of no demands, you end up coming across as attacking a belief - not the people inside the OWS movement themselves.

I base this on what comrades involved in Occupy Boston and Occupy Wall Street have said to me in e-mails and discussion groups. I'm living in Springfield, MO right now, so I have no way of knowing, really, not being there, but I think these comrades are credible (we're all sympathetic to anarchism...we don't have an axe to grind against it), and it fits with what I've witnessed in my own involvement in radical politics, which is that the anarchist label tends to a attract a diverse crowd...and sometimes (oftentimes?) this includes people who have arrived at their anarchism from a confused liberal/moral perspective rather than a class-conscious one, and along with that sometimes comes a lot of weird, confused, post-modern, faux-clever garbage like, "the message is that there is no message."

If I am being particularly hard on these "anarchists," it is out of particular respect for the anarchist tradition, and I don't like to see it get a bad name.

To be clear, it is not just confused anarchist-wannabes who are touting the whole "no demands" thing, it is almost everyone in the "Occupy..." movement. I even have some Trotskyist friends who have fallen into it. This article is addressed to everyone in the movement...but c'mon, you know that this movement is intellectually indebted to a greater extent to lifestyle anarchism than to Leninism (which I otherwise disdain, except for its usually clear commitment to programmatic clarity), and so this whole "no demands" thing is just as much a problem of modern anarchism as it is of the OWS.

So my article, even if it is concretely addressing OWS, is hinting at this broader point of which direction modern anarchism should take (posing "demands" in a similar way to how the CNT did, rather than eschewing demands altogether and falling into lifestyle politics/building alternative ghettos of anti-capitalist culture...which I see OWS exhibiting a lot of, what with all of the self-enamoured dancing and hippie stuff going on (which is great...insofar as it doesn't overshadow serious ideological struggle, which I fear it is). Most readers won't pick up on this undercurrent in the article, but people versed in the radical left will.

Die Neue Zeit
13th October 2011, 13:35
We're not writing a Seinfeld skit here people! Either these "no message, no demands" people are intentionally staging a self-mocking theater of the absurd, or they have unfortunately overshot an important lesson of the revolutionary left in the 20th century.

They are correct in suspecting that posing demands often corrupts movements and organizations, but they clearly do not understand why, or what to do about it.

The corruption occurs because the demands posed aren't numerous enough. Single-issue campaigns tend to get co-opted, for example.


It's a pity that "anarchists" are behaving this way, really. Once upon a time, anarchists knew how to win demands.

That was the original anti-political nature of anarchism, though.


"...the CNT rejected all sorts of agreements with the employers. Strikes ought to lead, in their conception of trade unionism, to the de facto application of better wages and shorter hours by the employers, but without any obligation, on the side of the workers, to keep to a settlement for a given time. The state of war between employers and wage-earners must be continual...With the creation of the CNT...Spanish anarchism transformed itself into 'anarcho-syndicalism'. The strangest thing about it is that it [anarchism] continued to exist successfully under these conditions. Other labour movements, such as that of Norway, have lived through the same attempts to create a trade-union movement based on syndicalist ideas; but invariably, after a time, the trade unions reverted to the typical trade-unionist mentality, to regular settlements with the employers, to the keeping of strike funds and social insurance funds, to completely pacific methods of action. Only Spain makes an exception. The Spanish CNT is perhaps the one genuinely revolutionary trade-union movement of large size in the world."

Most anarcho-syndicalism falls into the trap of economism, limiting demands to those aimed at the direct employer or a clustered group of them, and not at the level of society as a whole.


When advocating demands among the OWS movement, our language should explicitly be, "We, the working class, are realistically not yet united and class conscious enough to take power ourselves, but the working class is strong enough right now to extort X and Y from the capitalist class and its political servants in the State. Tomorrow, if we are stronger, we shall try to extort Z as well, and so on. We will give the capitalist class and its State nothing in return, ever—not even a promise of social peace that we know, and they know, we have no intention of keeping insofar as it suits us to not do so."

All well and good, but again demands levelled at the state should be prioritized over and above those aimed at the direct employer.

Comrade-Z
13th October 2011, 14:46
Most anarcho-syndicalism falls into the trap of economism, limiting demands to those aimed at the direct employer or a clustered group of them, and not at the level of society as a whole.

I'm curious about what you base this conclusion on because it's a highly novel criticism of anarchism. If anything, anarchism usually gets criticized for directing its criticism too much at the political system as a whole and not focusing enough on "practical" or "realistic" economic struggles. There are many things I'd think to criticize anarchism for before "economism" came to mind. Actually, the more I think about it, this point of yours strikes me as really bizarre, but I'm honestly intrigued by it.

I suppose that, insofar as anarcho-syndicalism is a variant of trade unionism, it shares the potential dangers of all trade unionism (falling into bread-&-butter demands), but I've always had the impression that anarcho-syndicalism had been the most resistant to this trend of any type of trade unionism.

Die Neue Zeit
13th October 2011, 14:52
I'm curious about what you base this conclusion on because it's a highly novel criticism of anarchism.

It's not novel. It goes way back to the time of the Kautskyan Marxist Center in the original Socialist International, the Second International.


If anything, anarchism usually gets criticized for directing its criticism too much at the political system as a whole and not focusing enough on "practical" or "realistic" economic struggles.

Anarchism might have criticisms of the political setup as a whole, but most of the time there are scant few demands dealing with that same setup. Even the "struggle for socialism" itself is economic and not really political.


There are many things I'd think to criticize anarchism for before "economism" came to mind. Actually, the more I think about it, this point of yours strikes me as really bizarre, but I'm honestly intrigued by it.

I suppose that, insofar as anarcho-syndicalism is a variant of trade unionism, it shares the potential dangers of all trade unionism (falling into bread-&-butter demands), but I've always had the impression that anarcho-syndicalism had been the most resistant to this trend of any type of trade unionism.

What I'm saying is, again, not bizarre.

Tred-iunionizm is merely the crudest form of economism on the block.

Comrade-Z
13th October 2011, 15:01
It's not novel. It goes way back to the time of the Kautskyan Marxist Center in the original Socialist International, the Second International.

I'll admit, my knowledge of the Kautskyan Marxist Center in the original Socialist International is rather scant. :rolleyes: But good to know nonetheless.


Anarchism might have criticisms of the political setup as a whole, but most of the time there are scant few demands dealing with that same setup.

Anarchists have tended to view reformist collaboration with the State as corrupting...and who can blame them? So what I tried to articulate was a way of posing demands to the State in a way that did not tread on the usual dangers of reformist collaboration that have taken down untold number of radical leftist movements.

Comrade-Z
13th October 2011, 15:05
What I'm saying is, again, not bizarre.

Tred-iunionizm is merely the crudest form of economism on the block.

Okay, reading this article helped me understand a bit where you are coming from:
http://www.marx.org/archive/hallas/works/1973/03/economism.htm

I'd advise us to not get hung up on the fact that anarchists refuse to call for the creation of a "revolutionary party" and that they refuse to tell the working class to implement a "dictatorship of the proletariat." These were, from the beginning, terminological differences that got way overblown. My sense is that anarchists foolishly rejected the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" because it had the evil word "dictatorship" in it. Whatever. That was a mistake made 150 years ago. I think modern anarchists and Marxists of other stripes can agree that, whatever we call it, the working class will rule politically and economically after capitalism, and that we need to create working class organizations to achieve those ends. You can call these organizations "parties," "leagues," "associations," whatever...the really important question is, what are these organizations going to do? Are they going to run for office? Different types of anarchists and communists have differed on that question at times. Etc. That's the sort of thing that we should argue over.

If you could convince anarchists to run for office, or demand nationalization of X industry, or whatever, the terminological different of them operating in an "association" rather than a "party" would not prevent them from being able to do that.

In any case, my sense is that there is some economist "mere militancy" in modern anarchism, especially in anarchist activism on college campuses around issues like campus union campaigns, but on the whole anarchists tend to have very specific ideas about changing or affecting the political order, even if some are not the best at articulating it.

Mr. Natural
13th October 2011, 17:13
The left in the US currently lacks people, power, and a revolutionary organizing strategy, and so making "demands" would be delusional self-satire.

However, as Comrade-Z assesses, a movement must have "goals and a message." Otherwise, there will be fragmentation, passivity, and political-philosophical degeneration--the present state of the American left.

So what might be the "goals and message" of the left at OWS and related actions? It seems clear to me that our intitial, doable goal is to confront the reality of capitalism's mental and physical capture of humanity. All of the major problems and issues being raised at OWS can be traced to roots in The System, and it can be further shown that capitalism will oppose their resolution.

I'm saying that the minimum initial goal of the left at OWS is to educate to the root nature of the problem (capitalism), and that delivering this message would generate energy, creativity, fun, communication and cooperation among left groups, and some much-needed success to grow from.

I'm stuck in the sticks, but I'd love to sit at a table at OWS with a big sign: "What's Your Problem? Analyses And Solutions Here!" Then, in response to problems presented, I'd look into the big red crystal ball I'd have and gleefully analyze and destroy capitalism. What fun!

But exposing capitalism in all its ugliness in many creative, effective ways is a minimal "let's get started" goal. What really needs to happen is that weak, dogmatic, sectarian American left groups must find ways to work together against capitalism, and a "capitalism exposed" campaign is one way to begin such a process.

Then we can begin to make demands.

bcbm
13th October 2011, 17:47
i'm just gonna leave this (http://zinelibrary.info/files/wedamandnothing-read.pdf) here

RHIZOMES
14th October 2011, 13:25
The Occupy movement is a message in-and-of-itself. it is reclaiming public space that is used to openly discuss revolutionary ideas. It is about organisation of people as an economic class, articulated by the terminology of "the 99 percent". There are a whole host of intellectual inspirations that guide the movement.

What would they mean by demands? Does it mean demands within the prevailing social structure, supporting x bill or y senator? Does it mean abolishing the social structure, a unilateral smash capitalism approach with no clear goal as how to do it? As soon as you create concrete demands, you supress dialogue among a movement that has only just formed. The Occupy movement is about the masses realising the political weight they can muster as a collective class, this has many dizzying implications that have got to be drawn out through the continual development and emerging contradictions of this movement before top-down institutional demands are made. Open dialogue to its fullest extent is a revolutionary act, and we need dialogue at this decisive juncture. Dogmatically ascribing to the holy books of Marx will not help.

Making too many institutionalised demands can weaken the democratic base of people's organisations. Setting up people with official power to enforce the consistency of those demands would be replicating an aspect of class society within the movement. It's dodgy as fuck, man.

Also lol @ at the article blaming the "no demands" outlook on "anarchists". Typical dogmatic leftists having to narrate every political event from the vantage point of their own petty irrelevant quibbles.

Jimmie Higgins
23rd October 2011, 13:56
The Occupy movement is a message in-and-of-itself. it is reclaiming public space that is used to openly discuss revolutionary ideas. It is about organisation of people as an economic class, articulated by the terminology of "the 99 percent". There are a whole host of intellectual inspirations that guide the movement.To anticapitalists this is true, but not for the liberals who've come out (not that there's anything wrong with that - people taking action outside of the establishment is a big step forward). To the progressives, the 99% is not class - specifically not working class, but populist.


What would they mean by demands? Does it mean demands within the prevailing social structure, supporting x bill or y senator? Does it mean abolishing the social structure, a unilateral smash capitalism approach with no clear goal as how to do it? As soon as you create concrete demands, you supress dialogue among a movement that has only just formed.The occupy movement itself IS a demand, so all this talk about "demanding nothing" is just pomo semantics. IMO the basis behind "no demands" is actually out of a fear that political debate connected to action will tear apart what people have managed to pull together. This is a new movement and riding on momentum and the pure joy of people no longer feeling isolated and frustrated so there's nothing all that terrible about some political murkiness at this point. But for us as radicals who have looked at history, we should have no illusions in some of the liberal ideas being put forward right now as if "politics" are one separate world of official bureaucratic parliamentarian and "regular life" is non-political. Taking over a space is inherently political and inherently a challenge and a demand. If our fellow campers get arrested what does the movement do, let them fend for themselves or make demands?


The Occupy movement is about the masses realizing the political weight they can muster as a collective class, this has many dizzying implications that have got to be drawn out through the continual development and emerging contradictions of this movement before top-down institutional demands are made. Open dialogue to its fullest extent is a revolutionary act, and we need dialogue at this decisive juncture. Dogmatically ascribing to the holy books of Marx will not help.

Making too many institutionalised demands can weaken the democratic base of people's organisations. Setting up people with official power to enforce the consistency of those demands would be replicating an aspect of class society within the movement. It's dodgy as fuck, man.I think this is a straw-man - how are demands inherently top-down and dogmatic? Why can't demands be bottom up and decided democratically? Having a series of popular debates and figuring out some broad demands through the existing general assemblies seems perfectly reasonable.

"enforcing the constancy" of the demands - in other words if people vote majority/consensus on a particular action and then having that carried through is dodgy? I think it's more dodgy to institutionalize a lack of transparent decision-making and lack of popular accountability into a movement in the name of abstractions. Any movement has leadership - this could be some unelected body, or it could be elected representatives, it could be an informal clique who don't consider or call themselves leaders, or it can be full direct democracy. The important question for me is how can this movement be helped to maintain the good aspects of the ideas: to make sure that democracy and a open political space for debate remain, to make sure it is an independent space not co-opted by NGOs or Democrats.

khad
23rd October 2011, 14:39
This has certainly been an informative discussion. But while people from NZ can wax poetically about the glory of public gathering, maybe I can help extend this discussion into what's been happening on the ground.

In the context of Occupy Wall Street, they just denounced a Demands Working Group that was expected to a jobs proposal as part of its platform (which would have given a real working class character to the goals of the protest).

http://lbo-news.com/2011/10/21/those-demands-forget-about-them/
http://lbo-news.com/2011/10/20/ows-demands-working-group-jobs-for-all/

This debate is interesting and useful intellectually, but things are turning south rapidly for the capacity of the left to push a more radical agenda through the occupy movement.

One practical suggestion, from a friend of mine who was at OWS, is that "we should racebait the fuck out of them," as there's a perception that the general assembly at OWS is nothing more than a front for middle class white college grads preening before the media.

It's that desperate, folks.

Ele'ill
24th October 2011, 21:16
This debate is interesting and useful intellectually, but things are turning south rapidly for the capacity of the left to push a more radical agenda through the occupy movement.

I see things turning around where I'm at despite the constructive pessimism I sometimes express (although this is very much a rollercoaster) We started with people saying that our local occupy together was not only non-political but also non-class. That was a heavy talking point throughout the first three days or so. Obviously that makes no sense at all. That eventually was discussed outside of the GAs enough so that it dropped and all that remained was the empty 'non-political' sloganeering. Fast forward briefly- I heard that at a GA two days ago (?) someone said 'this is non-political' as a rebuttal to something and the majority of the people at the GA booed and did NOT like it.

There was the battle of Main street that ended with GA consensus to hold Main street- people were arrested. Leading up to that there was very much a 'let the radicals get brutalized' mentality but with enough discussion and with radicals practicing in action their beliefs there was a shift. There were people at the jail solidarity action who had previously been arguing against the whole main street thing.

Last night there was a call out to expand the occupation into other areas. That what we're doing now isn't sustainable and it isn't moving forward. That was given to the GA as a proposal. Nobody involved with this proposal is involved with radical organizing. This proposal was given to the GA for consideration (to be brought up the following day- which will be tonight) right after a labor outreach committee proposal (which has quite a few solid organizations backing it). We're the second largest occupation camp and my opinion is that radical agitation is anything but dead- it's very much alive and this camp has the opportunity to set the tempo. What I'm interested in is how the camp works in relation to unions in relation to organizing in general. Where is the exchange? It seems like this is a flirtation with the general strike. Agitate towards a general strike. Global.