Happy Jesusween!

[Zostrianos]

Fundamentalist Christians have come up with an alternative for the evil, Pagan holiday that Halloween is. Say hello to Jesusween!

Y52CN1_z0tw

[$lim_$weezy]

Jesusween? Really? Are they even trying?

EDIT: Just heard the "Jesusweener" part. XD

[ComradeMan]

Fundamentalist Christians have come up with an alternative for the evil, Pagan holiday that Halloween is. Say hello to Jesusween!



Well people can come up with their own festivals if they want, but I find this curious.

Halloween, i.e. All Hallows Eve is a Christian festival that precedes All Saints Day. Halloween itself is only attested in the records in the mid 16th century and most of the "ancient" pagan traditions have been reconstructed by folklorists and neo-pagans. :crying: Obviously they were folk customs and superstitions but really... it's all a bit over the top these days.

[Veovis]

I smell a Poe...

[Tablo]

I'm a Jesus Weener.

[The Jay]

If I dress up as jesus for halloween, does that meant that I'm celebrating Jesusween? Oh yeah, and I'm a jesus-weener.

[WeAreReborn]

I would be pissed if I got bibles and literature for Halloween instead of candy.

[Susurrus]

"on knees for jesus"? That sounds like some S&M to me.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I love how Christians think that Halloween is evil without offering up any real evidence for their claim while also completely ignoring history.

lol...but what was I expecting? :lol:

[Zostrianos]

Here's an even better one. This is an actual article written by a US minister a couple of years back, on the dangers of Halloween. Again, this is a real article. It must be read to be believed:
http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/prophetic-insight/23723-the-danger-of-celebrating-halloween?showall=1

Halloween—October 31—is considered a holiday in the United States. In fact, it rivals Christmas with regard to how widely celebrated it is. Stores that sell only Halloween-related paraphernalia open up a few months before the day and close shortly after it ends. But is Halloween a holiday that Christians should be observing?
The word "holiday" means "holy day." But there is nothing holy about Halloween. The root word of Halloween is "hallow," which means "holy, consecrated and set apart for service." If this holiday is hallowed, whose service is it set apart for? The answer to that question is very easy—Lucifer's!
Lucifer is a part of the demonic godhead. Remember, everything God has, the devil has a counterfeit. Halloween is a counterfeit holy day that is dedicated to celebrating the demonic trinity of : the Luciferian Spirit (the false father); the Antichrist Spirit (the false holy spirit); and the Spirit of Belial (the false son).
The key word in discussing Halloween is "dedicated." It is dedicated to darkness and is an accursed season. During Halloween, time-released curses are always loosed. A time-released curse is a period that has been set aside to release demonic activity and to ensnare souls in great measure.
You may ask, "Doesn't God have more power than the devil?" Yes, but He has given that power to us. If we do not walk in it, we will become the devil's prey. Witchcraft works through dirty hearts and wrong spirits.
During this period demons are assigned against those who participate in the rituals and festivities. These demons are automatically drawn to the fetishes that open doors for them to come into the lives of human beings. For example, most of the candy sold during this season has been dedicated and prayed over by witches.
I do not buy candy during the Halloween season. Curses are sent through the tricks and treats of the innocent whether they get it by going door to door or by purchasing it from the local grocery store. The demons cannot tell the difference.
Even the colors of Halloween (orange, brown and dark red) are dedicated. These colors are connected to the fall equinox, which is around the 20th or 21st of September each year and is sometimes called "Mabon." During this season witches are celebrating the changing of the seasons from summer to fall. They give praise to the gods for the demonic harvest. They pray to the gods of the elements (air, fire, water and earth).
Mother earth is highly celebrated during the fall demonic harvest. Witches praise mother earth by bringing her fruits, nuts and herbs. Demons are loosed during these acts of worship. When nice church folk lay out their pumpkins on the church lawn, fill their baskets with nuts and herbs, and fire up their bonfires, the demons get busy. They have no respect for the church grounds. They respect only the sacrifice and do not care if it comes from believers or non-believers.
Gathering around bonfires is a common practice in pagan worship. As I remember, the bonfires that I attended during homecoming week when I was in high school were always in the fall. I am amazed at how we ignorantly participate in pagan, occult rituals.
The gods of harvest that the witches worship during their fall festivals are the Corn King and the Harvest Lord. The devil is too stupid to understand that Jesus is the Lord of the Harvest 365 days a year. But we cannot be ignorant of the devices of the enemy. When we pray, we bind the powers of the strong men that people involved in the occult worship.

Halloween is much more than a holiday filled with fun and tricks or treats. It is a time for the gathering of evil that masquerades behind the fictitious characters of Dracula, werewolves, mummies and witches on brooms. The truth is that these demons that have been presented as scary cartoons actually exist. I have prayed for witches who are addicted to drinking blood and howling at the moon.
While the lukewarm and ignorant think of these customs as "just harmless fun," the vortexes of hell are releasing new assignments against souls. Witches take pride in laughing at the ignorance of natural men (those who ignore the spirit realm).
Decorating buildings with Halloween scenes, dressing up for parties, going door-to-door for candy, standing around bonfires and highlighting pumpkin patches are all acts rooted in entertaining familiar spirits. All these activities are demonic and have occult roots.
The word "occult" means "secret." The danger of Halloween is not in the scary things we see but in the secret, wicked, cruel activities that go on behind the scenes. These activities include:


Sex with demons
Orgies between animals and humans
Animal and human sacrifices
Sacrificing babies to shed innocent blood
Rape and molestation of adults, children and babies
Revel nights
Conjuring of demons and casting of spells
Release of "time-released" curses against the innocent and the ignorant.

Another abomination that goes on behind the scenes of Halloween is necromancy, or communication with the dead. Séances and contacting spirit guides are very popular on Halloween, so there is a lot of darkness lurking in the air.
However, Ephesians 1:19-21 speaks of the authority of the believer and the exceeding greatness of God's power in us (the same power that raised Christ from the dead). It goes on to say that that Jesus is seated in heavenly places far above all principalities, power, might, dominions and every name that is named. The good news is that because we are seated in heavenly places with Jesus, the same demonic activity that is under His feet is under our feet, too!

People who worship the devil continue to attempt to lift him up. But he has already been cast out and down! Many are blinded to this fact, but the day will come when all will know he has been defeated once and for all.

When we accept Jesus but refuse to renounce Satan and his practices, we are neither hot nor cold but lukewarm—and the Word says that God will spit us out of His mouth. The problem with lukewarm is that it attempts to mix the things of the devil with the things of God. It is God's desire that we serve Him alone.

Second Corinthians 6:15 asks the question, "And what agreement has Christ with Belial?" As believers, we need to answer that question in our hearts. We must avoid the very appearance of evil. I would not want a demon spirit to mistake me for an occult worshiper.

There is no doubt in my heart that God is not calling us to replace fall festivals and Halloween activities; rather, He wants us to utterly destroy the deeds of this season. If you or your family members have opened the door to any curses that are released during the demonic fall festivals, renounce them and repent. I already have. Then declare with me: "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!"

About the author: Kimberly Daniels is a sought-after conference speaker and preacher. She is the founder of Kimberly Daniels Ministries International (kimberlydaniels.com (http://www.kimberlydaniels.com/)), Spoken Word Ministries—the church she pastors in Jacksonville, Florida, with her husband, Ardell—A Child of the King Learning Center and Word Bible College. Kim is a recognized prophetic voice as well as the author of several books, including her most recent, Prayers that Bring Change (Charisma House).

[TheGodlessUtopian]

^hahaha...the guy doesn't even offer up any analysis for his claims (as usual);funny,or at least it would be if it wasn't so sad.

[Zostrianos]

What's even more sad is that millions of people (chiefly Americans) are taught absurdities like this on Sunday mornings by their preachers, and most of them probably believe it.

[ComradeMan]

What's even more sad is that millions of people (chiefly Americans) are taught absurdities like this on Sunday mornings by their preachers, and most of them probably believe it.

What is the figure for regular Sunday attendance of Churches that would be considered "fundamentalist" as opposed to the "mainstream" in the US?

[Zostrianos]

What is the figure for regular Sunday attendance of Churches that would be considered "fundamentalist" as opposed to the "mainstream" in the US?

I don't know, but it appears the Bible belt is entirely controlled by fundamentalist denominations. There are some places where there is a church on every street, there are Christian billboards everywhere, and it's actually dangerous to come out openly as an atheist or non christian. And most Protestant and evangelical churches in the US appear to be fundamentalists.

[ComradeMan]

I don't know, but it appears the Bible belt is entirely controlled by fundamentalist denominations. There are some places where there is a church on every street, there are Christian billboards everywhere, and it's actually dangerous to come out openly as an atheist or non christian. And most Protestant and evangelical churches in the US appear to be fundamentalists.

Proverbs 19:1-2: "Better is a poor person who walks in his integrity than one who is crooked in speech and is a fool. Desire without knowledge is not good, and whoever makes haste with his feet misses his way."

What worries me, in my opinion at least, is their astonishing lack of "Christian" culture or civilisation and their bizarre interpretations and/or literalism of scripture.

It reminds me of Alexander Pope (now irony intended)

"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again."

or...

Hosea 4:6: "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

Ephesians 4:18: "They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart."

Matthew 7:21-23: " Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

And even if these groups are "right" by their own scriptures, by their own scriptures it is their duty to FORGIVE and NOT to judge, lest they be judged... Matthew 7:1 (Aramaic): "You shall not judge, lest you be judged."

[#FF0000]

Giving a kid an apple will earn you a firecracker in your mailbox. I can't wait to see what happens when these folks try and give them bibles.

[Zostrianos]

You could always burn the Bibles they give out :laugh::laugh:. They probably have an infinite supply of them anyway.
I think burning books is a crime, but in this case one could make an exception

[ComradeMan]

Giving a kid an apple will earn you a firecracker in your mailbox. I can't wait to see what happens when these folks try and give them bibles.

So what was basically a fun and folkloristic festival has (in America) been commercialised by big business, politicised and "religousised" by religious groups, and turned into something nasty by the kids themselves....

Yay America!!! :(

Halloween is not particularly Italian at all, but every year it's being celebrated more and more... three cheers for globalisation and making a buck...

[Zostrianos]

What worries me, in my opinion at least, is their astonishing lack of "Christian" culture or civilisation and their bizarre interpretations and/or literalism of scripture..........

And even if these groups are "right" by their own scriptures, by their own scriptures it is their duty to FORGIVE and NOT to judge, lest they be judged... Matthew 7:1 (Aramaic): "You shall not judge, lest you be judged."

What I love most is when fundies have big public prayer rallies, or demand to pray before football games, at graduations and big public events (which is happening more and more in the US:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il8Iwmurzxc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bXm_ox6Tp4).

That's when I like to quote some scripture to them:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

[ComradeMan]

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full."

(David) Psalm 26:4 "I do not sit with the deceitful, nor do I associate with hypocrites."

[00000000000]

Never been a fan of Halloween, like this idea even less.

(My gf bought a load of sweets and put them in a bowl ready for when the local free loading pipsqueaks come a-calling...makes me sad)

[ComradeMan]

Never been a fan of Halloween, like this idea even less.

(My gf bought a load of sweets and put them in a bowl ready for when the local free loading pipsqueaks come a-calling...makes me sad)

Well with that generous spirit and humanity the left has a great future....:lol:

[Astarte]

I always thought Halloween traced its roots back to Samhain, which was the traditional midpoint, astrologically speaking, of the sun's course between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstice.


Samhain (sow-een or sow'-inn)
Traditional date: October 31 to November 1
Actual astrological date: Nov 6 in 2008
Midpoint between Autumn Equinox and Winter Solstice
http://www.packrat-pro.com/celts/celtholidays.htm

[Zostrianos]

And there's also the catholic All Saints Day on November 1st, which was meant to replace the Pagan holiday. However, I don't think Protestants celebrate that (or are even aware of it), hence the stupidity behind this campaign.

[ComradeMan]

I always thought Halloween traced its roots back to Samhain, which was the traditional midpoint, astrologically speaking, of the sun's course between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstice.

I would be very careful with accepting as "authentic" or based on "historical fact" anything that has to do with "Celtic" neo-paganism, reconstructionism and/or druidism. People are free to believe what they want, but very often an analysis of the actual evidence and historical "facts" presented by these groups reveal them to be false or mistaken or based on wild speculation of what may or may not have been the case from a modern perspective.

There's very little evidence to suggest it was celebrated as some modern reconstructionists try to make out. I don't think there's any evidence that the Celtic peoples celebrated the equinoxes either. The earliest records seem to associate it with All Saints Day, and given that ancient Christians kept the Jewish way of starting days from sunset the "day before" this would mean All Saints Day, started at sunset on 31st October. Later it became "All Hallows Eve".

"according to the Oxford Dictionary of English folk lore: "Certainly Samhain was a time for festive gatherings, and medieval Irish texts and later Irish, Welsh, and Scottish folklore use it as a setting for supernatural encounters, but there is no evidence that it was connected with the dead in pre-Christian times, or that pagan religious ceremonies were held."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween#UNICEF
HUTTON, RONALD, The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996)

Whether or not the modern Samhain is connected to Gaulish Samonios is also debated.

[Zostrianos]

I go to a Samhain ritual almost every year, and it's essentially a Wiccan ritual followed by a partaking of bread and wine in remembrance of one's ancestors.

[ComradeMan]

I go to a Samhain ritual almost every year, and it's essentially a Wiccan ritual followed by a partaking of bread and wine in remembrance of one's ancestors.

Cool--- but did you know the association with the dead is actually of Christian origin?

All of this ridiculous nonsense about an "evil, pagan, occult festival" is based on a lot of fundie ignorance stemming from Protestant anti-Catholicism. This is in turn seems to have been picked up by neo-pagans who erroneously think they are celebrating an ancient Celtic/druidic/pagan festival when in actual fact it has its roots in Medieval Irish and Scottish (Gaelic) Catholicism.

[Zostrianos]

That I had no idea

[Zostrianos]

All of this ridiculous nonsense about an "evil, pagan, occult festival" is based on a lot of fundie ignorance stemming from Protestant anti-Catholicism. This is in turn seems to have been picked up by neo-pagans who erroneously think they are celebrating an ancient Celtic/druidic/pagan festival when in actual fact it has its roots in Medieval Irish and Scottish (Gaelic) Catholicism.

The same Protestant attitude that says that Catholics are Pagan idol worshippers:thumbdown:
What's interesting about Protestantism is it started out as a movement of liberation from the tyranny of the Church, but just a few decades after its inception it had become even worse than Catholicism. And so it still is today.

In terms of the Neopagan Samhain, it does make sense regardless of its non Pagan origins, because when else would Neopagans honour their dead?

[ComradeMan]

The same Protestant attitude that says that Catholics are Pagan idol worshippers.

Most of the original protestant objections were based on things that I doubt many believers would even know about these days too.


What's interesting about Protestantism is it started out as a movement of liberation from the tyranny of the Church, but just a few decades after its inception it had become even worse than Catholicism. And so it still is today.

Well certainly, N.American fundamentalism is not very pleasant- I'd be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush.


In terms of the Neopagan Samhain, it does make sense regardless of its non Pagan origins, because when else would Neopagans going to honour their dead?

Unfortunately a lot of neo-pagan/Wiccan stuff etc was just made up or based on very bad historical analysis- this has since turned into "historical fact".

Another one that people forget is that in Europe, the first "witch burning/execution" incident we find is when the Romans executed 170 witches in 331 BCE, then 2000 "witches" in 184 BCE followed by another 3000 in 182 BCE. The crime of "witchcraft" or veneficium was established under the most ancient of Roman laws. Ironically the persecution of witchcraft in Rome abated with the onset of Christianity in the Empire. :crying::confused:

Many practices today that wiccans and neo-pagans do would have been illegal under "pagan" Rome and could have seen them burnt alive for it.

[GatesofLenin]

I'm wearing a red shirt to celebrate my far left leanings. :D

[ComradeMan]

I'm wearing a red shirt to celebrate my far left leanings. :D

The red blood of the workers as a symbol for the left, the workers, the downtrodden and so on, may well pick up on earlier Christian themes of the blood of Christ spilt during the passion and the blood of the martyrs in Christ.

[Zostrianos]

Well certainly, N.American fundamentalism is not very pleasant- I'd be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush.


Not at all, actually the most liberal Christian denominations are Protestant (Lutheran, and Unitarians). Unfortunately, they're not as prominent or influential as the fundies: Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc...



Another one that people forget is that in Europe, the first "witch burning" incident we find is when the Romans burned 170 witches in 331 BCE, then 2000 "witches" in 184 BCE followed by another 3000 in 182 BCE. The crime of "witchcraft" or veneficium was established under the most ancient of Roman laws. Ironically the persecution of witchcraft in Rome abated with the onset of Christianity in the Empire. :crying::confused:
Many practices today that wiccans and neo-pagans do would have been illegal under "pagan" Rome and could have seen them burnt alive for it.

I'm usually pretty unforgiving when it comes to organized Christianity, but I haven't researched the medieval witch burnings enough to give a proper opinion. Given the relatively tolerant nature of Roman society, I am baffled by the attitude of some Pagan emperors towards magic and divination, that they would crack down so harshly on them. I think it was a matter of witches and magicians subverting the authority of official cults, and I also saw a reference somewhere to soothsayers being persecuted, because their prophecies could have undesired political influence.

[ComradeMan]

Given the relatively tolerant nature of Roman society, I am baffled by the attitude of some Pagan emperors towards magic and divination, that they would crack down so harshly on them.

Well, perhaps as I have been trying to demonstrate, the Romans weren't as tolerant as they were made out to be. Since the Renaissance, Enlightenment and during the period of European Imperial Expansion the Romans were glorified and their image reworked a lot. Look how European empires, from Napoleon to Mussolini borrowed symbolism from Rome and so on. We have been taught in Europe that European history is about Greeks and Romans until the nasty "barbarians" came and spoiled it all etc...

Another thing that people miss is in analysis a lot of so-called Roman tolerance, the Romans were encountering a lot of people with belief systems so "genetically" similar to their own that it was easy to apply the interpretatio romana- Zeus = Jove, Hera = Juno and so on. Even the Germanic religions and perhaps to some extent later Gallic religions would all have had similarities with "Latin" religion because of their common origin. When the Romans encountered decidedly un-Roman stuff they couldn't relate to the story changed somewhat- although we are dealing with a long timeframe here and attitudes changed over time.


I think it was a matter of witches and magicians subverting the authority of official cults, and I also saw a reference somewhere to soothsayers being persecuted, because their prophecies could have undesired political influence.

Well that could be a factor, but I think it's a combination of people who were perhaps exploiting the ignorant and superstitious, quacks and also the genuine "fear" some may have had of such things given the times.

[Astarte]

I would be very careful with accepting as "authentic" or based on "historical fact" anything that has to do with "Celtic" neo-paganism, reconstructionism and/or druidism. People are free to believe what they want, but very often an analysis of the actual evidence and historical "facts" presented by these groups reveal them to be false or mistaken or based on wild speculation of what may or may not have been the case from a modern perspective.

There's very little evidence to suggest it was celebrated as some modern reconstructionists try to make out. I don't think there's any evidence that the Celtic peoples celebrated the equinoxes either. The earliest records seem to associate it with All Saints Day, and given that ancient Christians kept the Jewish way of starting days from sunset the "day before" this would mean All Saints Day, started at sunset on 31st October. Later it became "All Hallows Eve".

"according to the Oxford Dictionary of English folk lore: "Certainly Samhain was a time for festive gatherings, and medieval Irish texts and later Irish, Welsh, and Scottish folklore use it as a setting for supernatural encounters, but there is no evidence that it was connected with the dead in pre-Christian times, or that pagan religious ceremonies were held."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween#UNICEF
HUTTON, RONALD, The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996)

Whether or not the modern Samhain is connected to Gaulish Samonios is also debated.

Haha, wait, so because Abrahamism destroyed pagan spirituality we should throw out the midpoint between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstic as some kind of farce, even though the Sun really is just about at the midpoint... I usually respect your opinions Comrademan, but I think your argument that there is no record is a little lacking, seeing as though writing really didn't begin among Celts and Gauls until after Christianity, or at least the Romans arrived.

On the other hand, if I received a Bible trick-or-treating when i was a kid I would probably be like "ok, cool, ... I got a Bible..." I've never been one for burning Bibles...

EDIT: And also, six months later, there is Beltaine, or Walpurgisnacht, which is kind of a pan-European holiday, taking place night of April 30 to May 1 - midpoint between Vernal Equinox and Summer Solstice. Stoker in his "Dracula", even talks about Walpurgisnacht ... so this "neo-pagan revivalism" has been going on since at least the 19th century, I believe I've read about the midpoint holidays in the "Golden Bough" as well. What makes May 1 associated with the working class for that matter then? Probably the association with working people and folk religion.

[ComradeMan]

Haha, wait, so because Abrahamism destroyed pagan spirituality we should throw out the midpoint between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstic as some kind of farce, even though the Sun really is just about at the midpoint...

Sorry, but this is nothing about celebrating the autumnal equinox at all. People are free to celebrate whatever they want and "Abrahamism" is not attempting to destroy "pagan" spirituality at all, in fact when it comes to the British Isles and Ireland there was indeed a great deal of syncretism.

"Christ is my Druid, the Son of God, Christ, Son of Mary, the Great Abbot, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Saint Columba. (521-597 CE)

- but the fact remains that Halloween is not originally a pagan festival at all and there is no evidence that ancient pagans celebrated Samhain as such, nor that Samhain is connected to Halloween other than a possible calendrical coincidence- that is not even found throughout the entire "Celtic" world either. However there is plenty of evidence that supports that the whole idea of Halloween, especially the association with the dead, has its roots in Medieval Catholicism.

If you dispute this then show us the historical evidence.


I usually respect your opinions Comrademan, but I think your argument that there is no record is a little lacking, seeing as though writing really didn't begin among Celts and Gauls until after Christianity, or at least the Romans arrived.

That's not true either. The Celtic peoples, because we can't speak of one homogenous group, did have forms of writing going back to the 5th century BCE and the Romans record the Gauls as having used Greek letters to write. There are also the Celt-Iberian scripts and inscriptions from Spain/Portugal too. What seems to be true is that there was reputedly some kind of "taboo" against writing sacred things down.

We also have the Coligny Calendar that notably contains the month "Samonios" but does not indicate that there was any kind of special festival. Furthermore this ancient Celtic calendar does not even base the seasons on the solstices or the equinoxes. The earliest records we have of Samhain are from 10th century Ireland and they do not indicate anything to do with pagan ideas of the festival of the dead ancestors.


EDIT: And also, six months later, there is Beltaine, or Walpurgisnacht,

Beltaine is not a pan-European festival in its form as Beltaine, the name is Gaelic and the festival relates to Irish and Scottish Gaels. Walpurgisnacht is so named after Saint Walburga.

...

No one is suggesting throwing anything out- but at the same time historical fact remains historical fact. Halloween is basically a Christian/Catholic festival and there is little to no evidence of it having been celebrated as a pagan festival. The idea of this "pagan" festival is largely the result of Protestant anti-Catholic polemics.

The trouble with a lot of neo-pagan/reconstructionist stuff is that it is not very authentic in terms of historicity yet instead of being just a spiritual tradition it tries to pass itself off as "ancient" and "traditional" despite plenty of secular evidence against the said traditions.

But... when all is said and done- does it really make a difference to you?

[GatesofLenin]

The red blood of the workers as a symbol for the left, the workers, the downtrodden and so on, may well pick up on earlier Christian themes of the blood of Christ spilt during the passion and the blood of the martyrs in Christ.

Not when there's a pic of Lenin on the shirt. :tt2:

[Astarte]

Sorry, but this is nothing about celebrating the autumnal equinox at all. People are free to celebrate whatever they want and "Abrahamism" is not attempting to destroy "pagan" spirituality at all, in fact when it comes to the British Isles and Ireland there was indeed a great deal of syncretism.

"Christ is my Druid, the Son of God, Christ, Son of Mary, the Great Abbot, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Saint Columba. (521-597 CE)

- but the fact remains that Halloween is not originally a pagan festival at all and there is no evidence that ancient pagans celebrated Samhain as such, nor that Samhain is connected to Halloween other than a possible calendrical coincidence- that is not even found throughout the entire "Celtic" world either. However there is plenty of evidence that supports that the whole idea of Halloween, especially the association with the dead, has its roots in Medieval Catholicism.

If you dispute this then show us the historical evidence.



That's not true either. The Celtic peoples, because we can't speak of one homogenous group, did have forms of writing going back to the 5th century BCE and the Romans record the Gauls as having used Greek letters to write. There are also the Celt-Iberian scripts and inscriptions from Spain/Portugal too. What seems to be true is that there was reputedly some kind of "taboo" against writing sacred things down.

We also have the Coligny Calendar that notably contains the month "Samonios" but does not indicate that there was any kind of special festival. Furthermore this ancient Celtic calendar does not even base the seasons on the solstices or the equinoxes. The earliest records we have of Samhain are from 10th century Ireland and they do not indicate anything to do with pagan ideas of the festival of the dead ancestors.



Beltaine is not a pan-European festival in its form as Beltaine, the name is Gaelic and the festival relates to Irish and Scottish Gaels. Walpurgisnacht is so named after Saint Walburga.

...

No one is suggesting throwing anything out- but at the same time historical fact remains historical fact. Halloween is basically a Christian/Catholic festival and there is little to no evidence of it having been celebrated as a pagan festival. The idea of this "pagan" festival is largely the result of Protestant anti-Catholic polemics.

The trouble with a lot of neo-pagan/reconstructionist stuff is that it is not very authentic in terms of historicity yet instead of being just a spiritual tradition it tries to pass itself off as "ancient" and "traditional" despite plenty of secular evidence against the said traditions.

But... when all is said and done- does it really make a difference to you?

Last thing I will say is, I feel it is hard to believe Pagan illiterate or at best, proto-literate peoples of Europe did not celebrate the midpoints between the equinoxes/solstices... I suppose when the Spanish went to Mexico and "introduced" Catholicism it was a case of "syncretism" as well thanks to people like Diego Duran who tried to extract elements of Aztec theology and fit them into the Procrustean bed of their Catholic theology.

I would argue that in Britain, in the early centuries after Rome fell in the 500's-600's there was actually religious warfare between pagan tribes and Romanized Britains. The Anglo-Saxon gold horde found last year (or maybe it was 2009?) shows many golden Christian hold objects, like crosses, folded up and stripped up their useful metals - apparently thrown away. Armies can make evidence disappear, and I suppose their scribes and mouth pieces can also impose syncretic social developments.

[ComradeMan]

Last thing I will say is, I feel it is hard to believe Pagan illiterate or at best, proto-literate peoples of Europe did not celebrate the midpoints between the equinoxes/solstices...

But we have at least one calendar from those peoples that suggests nothing of the sort. Secondly, you can't generalise paganism in Europe- there were different versions of some proto-Indo-European religion related to Vedic religion, but there were probably countless other local beliefs and also a hint of monotheism (non-Abrahamic).

It may be hard to believe- but you can't pass speculation off as historical fact. I have looked but I can find little to no evidence of equinox celebrations as a norm, the Romans had Pomona and Cybele and the hilaria but the dates seem to vary a little and they weren't really connected to neo-pagan/reconstructionalist concepts of today. The Norse also had a spring celebration dedicated to Odin/Wotan. That still does not connect it much to so-called "Celtic" religion either- from which claims of ancient descent are often made by modern individuals and groups.


I suppose when the Spanish went to Mexico and "introduced" Catholicism it was a case of "syncretism" as well thanks to people like Diego Duran who tried to extract elements of Aztec theology and fit them into the Procrustean bed of their Catholic theology.

I'm not sure where you are coming with that one. Diego Duran was a Domincan friar who was criticised in his time for "preserving" heathen ways and beliefs. He wrote an entire history of the Aztecs up until La Conquista- but I am not sure if he was responsbibe for syncretim as such.


I would argue that in Britain, in the early centuries after Rome fell in the 500's-600's there was actually religious warfare between pagan tribes and Romanized Britains.

Sure, but those Romanised Britons were the very people through whose writings a lot of neo-pagan reconstructionalists derive their inspiration. The Celtic monks actually preserved a lot of that culture and many of these so-called "pagan" traditions originated in precisely that period with those people. The Celtic Roman Britons did not care much for the "heathen" barbarian Anglo-Saxons at all, so here we have not only religion but "tribe/ethnicity" being involved. You've got to admit that the poor Britons first had the Romans and no sooner had they gone than the Anglo-Saxons arrive, followed shortly after by Norsemen and then Normans... :crying:

Furthermore, in non-Romanised Ireland, the Celtic traditions remained and by-and-large fused with Christianity, preserving a lot of tradition and folklore. Things like the Ogham alphabet (now used by neo-pagans) and the Irish cycles of myths were all preserved by Christian monks. Ogham may have even been a Christian innovation- although we can't be sure.


The Anglo-Saxon gold horde found last year (or maybe it was 2009?) shows many golden Christian hold objects, like crosses, folded up and stripped up their useful metals - apparently thrown away. Armies can make evidence disappear, and I suppose their scribes and mouth pieces can also impose syncretic social developments.

Evidence please. What you want to believe and what actually happened may not be the same.

Like I have said before, people are free to base their spirituality and symbolism on whatever they want, however and unfortunately too, a lot of so-called "ancient wisdom" and "religion" as professed by neo-pagans, neo-druids, wiccans and so on is actually based on very modern interpretations, wishful thinking and speculation- as well as some blatant fraud and forgery- and often some attempt to pass off some kind of authenticity that just isn't found in the historical record. It's a shame, because it also clouds a real understanding of those ancient peoples and cultures too.

[Revolution starts with U]

When I was in Salem (Mass) last year I seen a bumper sticker that said "Wicca has never went to war over religion."

"Ya, if my religion were so fringe as to have at most 10k members, it probably wouldnt have gone to war either... because everyone would have died :laugh:" is what I originally said.

But now Im thinking... these people base themselves off pagan european rites (or at least think they do)... those people went to war A LOT. Im sure some of it was over religion :lol:

:End thread derail:

[ComradeMan]

When I was in Salem (Mass) last year I seen a bumper sticker that said "Wicca has never went to war over religion."

Yeah, because it was invented circa 1954... :rolleyes:

[#FF0000]

Halloween is not particularly Italian at all, but every year it's being celebrated more and more... three cheers for globalisation and making a buck...

Actually Halloween is the most revolutionary of holidays, given that its yearly ritual is kids donning masks and going house to house threatening people for candy.

[Zostrianos]

There are 2 main types of Neopaganism: Wiccan and reconstructionist.

The first and oldest is based on the work of Gerald Gardner (1884-1964) who was initiated into a celtic coven claiming to be the descendants of an ancient witch cult. Gardner condensed its teachings into his Book of Shadows (http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm). It's mainly based on western occultism, medieval magic, and Aleister Crowley's teachings, and has very little genuine Pagan content aside from numerous deities that are named, chiefly Celtic and nordic. Most Neopagans belong to the Wiccan branch, and use Gardner's rituals, usually adding or modifying parts to conform to their own Pagan beliefs, or using specific pantheons.

The reconstructionist branch is very different, and aims to reinstate polytheistic traditions as close to how they were originally practiced. It's more recent, but more genuine. The most famous one is Nova Roma (http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/rites_and_rituals.html), which revolves around Roman Paganism.

[ComradeMan]

reconstructionist...

Reconstructionist groups strive for authenticity and historical accuracy, perhaps in repsonse to the "New Age" type stuff and things like "wicca" etc.

I suppose for Roman and Greek reconstructionists it would be easy. I have never met any in Italy though and don't know how they would get around the animal cruelty regulations when it comes to sacrifices. I can't see the municipality of Rome being very keen on the idea!!! Some elements of pre-Christian belief survive in the various folklores of the country too and/or were incorporated a little in Catholicism.

The Celtic reconstructionist stuff is what I find the most problematic. As far as I know the modern Celtic areas are quite traditionalist Christian in the main, especially in the few remaining areas where the languages are used at home and also when it comes to what pre-Christian "Celtic" peoples believed no one really knows as they left no sacred writings. I also notice that this word "Celtic" gets attached to just about everything!!! It seems like a lot of Celtic scholarship suffers from the speculation of non-historians creating factoids about things like druids and, as we have seen, Samhain and Halloween. It's similar to some of the nonsense people used to speculate about all the time with the "mysterious" Etruscans. :crying:

I sometimes ask myself though- why do people feel this need to make everything ancient and desperately create "authenticity". The latest one is the Italian "witch cult" religion... "The Old Religion" that no one had ever heard of- in my experience at least.... :rolleyes:

[Zostrianos]

The reconstructionists have adapted to modern laws; as far as I know, animal sacrifice is no longer practiced. And apparently Italy is still a bastion of Catholicism, and Pagans have a hard time there, as well as in some parts of eastern Europe (like Ukraine as I had posted before). The worst is in Greece though, where the Orthodox Church is the state religion and there's active discrimination against non Christians by the government.

Paganism is growing very fast here in Canada (I have several friends who are Pagans) and England as well. Here's an interesting BBC report on Paganism in England:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8425694.stm



The Celtic reconstructionist stuff is what I find the most problematic. As far as I know the modern Celtic areas are quite traditionalist Christian in the main, especially in the few remaining areas where the languages are used at home and also when it comes to what pre-Christian "Celtic" peoples believed no one really knows as they left no sacred writings.


I think Druidism is the most problematic, because practically nothing is known about their rituals or religion, and modern Druidism seems to be based almost entirely on speculation. For many Pagans it doesn't matter if there's no documentation: as long as they know the names of deities, it's enough. Wiccans do that a lot.

[ComradeMan]

And apparently Italy is still a bastion of Catholicism, and Pagans have a hard time there....

I've never heard of pagans/wiccans/druids etc being persecuted in modern Italy at all to be honest. There are plenty of new age shops, bookstores and such like. Turin in particular has a lot of occult associations and history. There are also plenty of Eastern/Dharmic religious groups and I really, really, have never heard of any problems unless someone was doing something illegal. I'd be interested if you were referring to a specific case or something...???

The only thing is that Italy does have very strict laws against defrauding people, so some things like fortune telling and magical cures etc could put people on the wrong side of the law. There have been, sadly, quite a few high profile cases of charlatans who have preyed on innocent, naive and perhaps emotionally disturbed people in order to fleece them.

[Zostrianos]

What I remember seeing a few years back in a documentary, was a small Pagan group that was performing a ritual among some ruins in the center of Rome, and passersby would hurl insults at them. There was also a case a few years ago (not Pagan related, but regarding the church) where an italian comedian, Sabina Guzzani, was arrested for insulting the pope.

[ComradeMan]

What I remember seeing a few years back in a documentary, was a small Pagan group that was performing a ritual among some ruins in the center of Rome, and passersby would hurl insults at them. There was also a case a few years ago (not Pagan related, but regarding the church) where an italian comedian, Sabina Guzzani, was arrested for insulting the pope.

Hmmm.... archaeological sites are very, very strictly protected under law so I am not sure what was going on there. Perhaps you could get more information? But isolated incidents of bigotry, sad as they are, are not evidence of widespread persecution either.

The accusation was of "vilipendio"- this law basically says you can't insult/attack/harass a religous group or leader however the case wasn't taken up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabina_Guzzanti

Vilipendio laws also cover the President of the Republic, the Republic itself and its officials, the nation of Italy, the flag of Italy, the flag or device of foreign nations, tombs and dead bodies.

[ClearlyChrist]

Well, I Doubt The Kids'll Approve Of Fucking Bibles In Their Trick-Or-Treat Bags, Rather Than Candy..

[Astarte]

It may be hard to believe- but you can't pass speculation off as historical fact. I have looked but I can find little to no evidence of equinox celebrations as a norm, the Romans had Pomona and Cybele and the hilaria but the dates seem to vary a little and they weren't really connected to neo-pagan/reconstructionalist concepts of today. The Norse also had a spring celebration dedicated to Odin/Wotan. That still does not connect it much to so-called "Celtic" religion either- from which claims of ancient descent are often made by modern individuals and groups.

Well, we're not talking about the equinox, we're talking about the time when the sun is 45 degrees past the autumnal equninox, or roughly 45 days after. I'm going to look into it, though, if I was to bet you're probably right and there is no actual evidence.



I'm not sure where you are coming with that one. Diego Duran was a Domincan friar who was criticised in his time for "preserving" heathen ways and beliefs. He wrote an entire history of the Aztecs up until La Conquista- but I am not sure if he was responsbibe for syncretim as such.

Actually, I did a paper when I was in university on Duran and his attempts to cull pagan beliefs in Mexico and fit them into Christian theology - it was an undergraduate class, but 400 level "Europe and the World 1400-1800". I can't remember the name of the source I took out, which heavily drew from Duran's writings as a primary source, and the paper has disappeared since then, but I did get an A on the paper, either because I did so well at writing revisionist history :lol: or excerpts from Duran actually do make him seem open to the syncretism between Christianity and the Aztecs.

Duran was an interesting figure - he was not your average 16th century Catholic Friar - he was very much fascinated by and respectful of the indigenous people and their culture, even though he would write harsh words about the stamping out of idol worship, and reverence of the pagan deities, he was also well aware of the many parallels, and probably secretly worked towards syncretism of the two while openly stating to the authorities he was out to smash the old pagan system - this would make sense as, if i remember correctly, he may have been on the verge of getting in trouble a time or two.


But punishment usually results in compliance, and because the friars meted out punishment for noncompliance and rewarded compliance, the behavior of the indigenous peoples gradually changed. But a "change of behavior does not [necessarily] involve acceptance of new values,"[17] and many of the conversions to the new religion were superficial.
That those superficial conversions took place is due in some measure to the numerous coincidences of belief and practice between the two religious systems. Durán, in fact, saw so many parallels that
― 157 ―
he was convinced an evangelist had been there before the Spanish. But he was hardly pleased, as he also observed that "all of this was mixed with their idolatry, bloody and abominable, and it tarnished the good."[18] Some went even further.
Fray Servando Teresa de Mier, a Dominican friar from northern Mexico, was to create a furor such as had never before shaken the religious life of New Spain with his memorable sermon of December 12, 1794. In the Shrine of Guadalupe he revealed to his astonished listeners that the Aztecs had actually been a Christian people, though their Christianity had been deformed. They had worshipped God the Father under the name of Tezcatlipoca, the Son as Huizilopochtli, and venerated the Virgin Mary as Coatlicue.[19]
The existence of such striking coincidences of belief and practice contributed greatly to the syncretic adaptation of Christian forms to indigenous beliefs by allowing the basically different underlying assumptions to dictate practice that seemed Christian but was motivated by essentially indigenous beliefs. Thus, one must proceed cautiously in attempting to determine what the church was finally able to accomplish.
A striking example of this coincidence is the resemblance between Ometeotl, the supreme and abstract creator god of the Aztecs of whom no idols existed and to whom no ritual was specifically dedicated, and the Christian conception of God the Father, the relatively remote creator aspect of the tripartite Christian godhead. Similarly, Quetzalcóatl, the white Tezcatlipoca who died, rose to the heavens, but would return, could be, and was, compared to Christ in addition to more commonly being likened to Saint Thomas and sometimes Saint James. Both Christ and Quetzalcóatl had been sacrificed, both were sonlike aspects of the creator god, both existed in opposition to a dark aspect of the creative force, and both were seen as particularly representative of mankind.

...

In pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, ritual confession was related both to Tezcatlipoca, whose omnipresence enabled him to see all, and to Tlazolteotl, a manifestation of the female earth goddess known as the "filth eater" since the earth received everything. Confession could take place only once in a lifetime, and therefore the moment for it was carefully chosen. The penitent confessed his sins to a priest who was bound to secrecy; the confession was solely for the deity for whom the priest acted as agent. Then the priest, according to the severity of the sin, set a penance that, once accomplished, provided immunity from further temporal punishment. Durán explains that the confession was "not [always] oral as some have claimed,"[45] which he deduced from the fact that when he heard the Catholic confessions of Indians, they often brought pictures of their sins, evidently in the style of the codices. Although the modes of pre-Columbian confession varied somewhat from area to area—among the Zapotecs, for example, there were annual public confessions while the Maya might confess to family members in the absence of a priest[46] —the correspondence of all these practices to those of the Christian confessional was remarkable. It is little wonder that Durán was led to conclude that "in many cases the Christian religion and the heathen ways found a common ground."[47]
He was amazed as well by similarities in the rite of communion fundamental to both religions as each prescribed the ritual consumption of a sacrificed god. While "the Catholics drank wine and swallowed a wafer to symbolize their contact with the divine blood and body of Christ, the Mexica consumed images of the gods made of amaranth and liberally annointed with sacrificial blood."[48] The dough that formed those images was known by the Aztecs as "the flesh of god,"[49] a ritual substitute for the flesh of sacrificial victims who
― 160 ―
had become gods but a substitute paralleling remarkably the Christian idea of transubstantiation. Other similarities in ritual practice existed as well: both religions accompanied ritual by the burning of incense in sacred places, and the priests who conducted that ritual in both cases "chanted, wore elaborate robes, made vows of celibacy, lived in communities ... and wore their hair in a tonsure."[50] Pilgrimages to especially sacred places played a major part in both. In fact, pre-Conquest pilgrimage centers, such as the one at Chalma, soon became, and remain even today, Catholic pilgrimage centers. But while these similarities helped to make the superficial transition between the two religious systems relatively easy, beneath the surface they had the opposite effect. They allowed indigenous meanings to remain attached to apparently Christian ritual behavior. Coupled with the deep resentment generated by the displacement of indigenous priests and ritual practice, this retention of indigenous belief did much to counteract the superficial success of the syncretizing process.
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft7x0nb536&chunk.id=d0e6024&brand=ucpress;query=aztec&set.anchor=230


This is not my paper. It is well known Duran thought there were many parallels between Mexican pagan theology and Christianity... He was absolutely a force towards the syncretism of Aztec paganism with Christianity, even if his goal was officially full conversion, rather than syncretism.