Antisemitism on the Left?

[tir1944]

Why is there so much Antisemitism on Left(at least in E.Europe/ex-USSR)?
How widespread this problem is among the Western Parties?

[Kamos]

Well, if there is antisemitism in the left, I'd imagine it's more like the Nazbol phenomenon. People acting like they're leftists when they aren't. I think it's because the fall of socialism in Eastern Europe also stomped living conditions into the ground which led many to shift radically to the other side (fascism), with some "communist" (personality cult-ish) elements in it. Just look at Stalin and Lenin, many rightists idolise them as they were strong leaders who really made the Soviet Union powerful. Small-time communist leaders in the European socialist governments certainly aren't thought of in the same way. So, I would say it's not even the left, but a pseudo-leftish right that has antisemitism, and a lot of it.

[piet11111]

Do you mean the anti Israel position many on the left hold Tir ?

[tir1944]

No,i'm not talking about Antizionism (every real leftists is also an Antizionist),i'm talking about antisemitism.

[piet11111]

No,i'm not talking about Antizionism (every real leftists is also an Antizionist),i'm talking about antisemitism.

Can't say i noticed any antisemitism on the left outside of some very confused individuals.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think some people on the left do have a problem with distinguishing Zionism as it is practised by the Israeli government, and all symbols of Jewish-Israeli culture, though i'm not sure that this always transfers into blatant antisemitism necessarily.

One of the main problems I have with the left on the Zionism question is the never-ending nation-based, imperial analysis, which often leads to slogans of the 'Viva Palestina' type getting mis-used.

The two-state solution is clearly never going to be a long-term one, though I do support an interim statehood for the Palestinians. Thus, we must recognise that a nation-based (down with the Israelis, I support Palestine-type) analysis will only prolong the conflict, which ultimately plays into the hands of the Zionists.

I'm rambling. Fuck it. But my point stands. The left needs to change tack in terms of its long-run strategy towards the question of Zionism.

[piet11111]

So what do you support stammer and tickle ?

What i get from your post is that while zionism is bad opposing it will accomplish nothing.
So how would you go from there ?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

If I had an exact, thought-out answer i'd probably be winning a nobel peace prize, wouldn't I? Or more likely taking a hit from an Israeli spy. But anyway.

My main beef is that some activists - often the less theoretically-empowered ones, though not always - give a bad impression of the left because their anti-Zionism can often come off different to how it is intended. My other problem is that many on the left have pitted the problem of Zionism as one of Palestine vs Israel, when essentially as Socialists, it is not.

Our beef should be with the Zionist state in all its vulgar forms, against its racism, imperialism, WMDs and disgusting treatment of Israel-Arabs, Druze etc. But often the left misses this quite delicate point, and instead ends up bashing anything Israeli, and cheerleading anything pro-Palestinian, whether it is pro-working class, theocratic, dictatorial, terrorism against ordinary workers etc.

[piet11111]

So what you want is a principled position against both Israel and hamas & fatah and instead a internationalist proletarian solution to this decade long problem ?

I support that.

[Seth]

Why is there so much Antisemitism on Left(at least in E.Europe/ex-USSR)?
How widespread this problem is among the Western Parties?

Of course the resident Zionist would thank a post like that because they have a massive persecution complex.

If there is any real anti-semitism on the left, it's in movements that are aesthetically related to the left but are essentially not leftist movements. Such as the nazbols, who have left and right factions. Zyuganov's national communists are full of shitty nationalists and probably anti-semites as well.

As in serious communist parties and organizations, anti-semitism is non-existent. That is not to say that many if not most leftists engage in irresponsible anti-zionism, which is lending our sympathies to ultra-reactionaries and anti-semites solely because they're anti-Israel and pro-Palestine. Like Hamas or Iran. Ultimately those two are as bad if not worse than Zionism. Right now Zionism is just the one with the bloodiest hands.

[The Idler]

So what you want is a principled position against both Israel and hamas & fatah and instead a internationalist proletarian solution to this decade long problem ?

I support that.
Its called a no-state solution.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Its called a no-state solution.
Which isn't likely to occur. A one-state solution would be best.

It would undermine the nationalism from both the Israelis and Palestinians. Which undermines both the far right and the bourgeois of both nations, promotes proletariat unity, and will ultimately end Israeli imperialism.

[Devrim]

Which isn't likely to occur. A one-state solution would be best.

It would undermine the nationalism from both the Israelis and Palestinians. Which undermines both the far right and the bourgeois of both nations, promotes proletariat unity, and will ultimately end Israeli imperialism.

I am quite amazed by the way people constantly talk about their differing 'solutions' as if there actually is a solution, one state, two state, or otherwise.

Devrim

[Martin Blank]

Why is there so much Antisemitism on Left (at least in E.Europe/ex-USSR)?

I think a lot of it is due to the red-brown character of the various so-called "Communist" parties that emerged after the collapse of the USSR and the "people's democracies". However, anti-Semitism was already a major problem in those countries before and after WWII.


How widespread this problem is among the Western Parties?

Not so much, officially. However, my own experience has taught me that a lot of self-described socialists and communists cannot figure out where the line is between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. A bigger problem is that many of the "left" organizations and parties are willing to turn a blind eye to and forgive anti-Semitic comments, slogans, etc., in the name of "anti-imperialism".

[thefinalmarch]

It would undermine the nationalism from both the Israelis and Palestinians. Which undermines both the far right and the bourgeois of both nations, promotes proletariat unity, and will ultimately end Israeli imperialism.
You talk as if this new state wouldn't conjure up some nationalism of its own - something to the tune of "Levantine" nationalism.

[Kamos]

You talk as if this new state wouldn't conjure up some nationalism of its own - something to the tune of "Levantine" nationalism.

Every state can do that. What's your point? We've got to distinguish between what's relatively realistic (i.e. a one-state solution before the world revolution) and what's not (everyone will just get along in peace straight away). I mean, we all know that eventually communism is gonna appear and make the world as good as it'll ever be, but constantly citing it as the solution for everything is not helping.

[thefinalmarch]

Every state can do that. What's your point?
My point was that it would do little for "proletariat [sic] unity".

There was a time when nationalism was progressive - nowadays this is very rarely the case.

[Kamos]

My point was that it would do little for "proletariat [sic] unity".

It'd help peace in the Middle East. Baby steps.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You talk as if this new state wouldn't conjure up some nationalism of its own - something to the tune of "Levantine" nationalism.

I imagine a one-state solution could only come into existence after Zionism has been toppled and the worst of the Palestinian side (Hamas' ridiculous rocket campaigns, mainly [though I do understand the reasoning behind fighting back]) no longer exists.

[freepalestine]

I think some people on the left do have a problem with distinguishing Zionism as it is practised by the Israeli government, and all symbols of Jewish-Israeli culture, though i'm not sure that this always transfers into blatant antisemitism necessarily.

One of the main problems I have with the left on the Zionism question is the never-ending nation-based, imperial analysis, which often leads to slogans of the 'Viva Palestina' type getting mis-used.

The two-state solution is clearly never going to be a long-term one, though I do support an interim statehood for the Palestinians. Thus, we must recognise that a nation-based (down with the Israelis, I support Palestine-type) analysis will only prolong the conflict, which ultimately plays into the hands of the Zionists.

I'm rambling. Fuck it. But my point stands. The left needs to change tack in terms of its long-run strategy towards the question of Zionism.how would the left do that?
If I had an exact, thought-out answer i'd probably be winning a nobel peace prize, wouldn't I? Or more likely taking a hit from an Israeli spy. But anyway.

My main beef is that some activists - often the less theoretically-empowered ones, though not always - give a bad impression of the left because their anti-Zionism can often come off different to how it is intended. My other problem is that many on the left have pitted the problem of Zionism as one of Palestine vs Israel, when essentially as Socialists, it is not.

Our beef should be with the Zionist state in all its vulgar forms, against its racism, imperialism, WMDs and disgusting treatment of Israel-Arabs, Druze etc. But often the left misses this quite delicate point, and instead ends up bashing anything Israeli, and cheerleading anything pro-Palestinian, whether it is pro-working class, theocratic, dictatorial, terrorism against ordinary workers etcive heard liberal zionists say similar things






Not so much, officially. However, my own experience has taught me that a lot of self-described socialists and communists cannot figure out where the line is between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. A bigger problem is that many of the "left" organizations and parties are willing to turn a blind eye to and forgive anti-Semitic comments, slogans, etc., in the name of "anti-imperialism".such as?... ive never heard socialists use racist comments or slogans ...why would socialists be racist...
or even zionist?

[thefinalmarch]

I imagine a one-state solution could only come into existence after Zionism has been toppled and the worst of the Palestinian side (Hamas' ridiculous rocket campaigns, mainly [though I do understand the reasoning behind fighting back]) no longer exists.
Zionism as an ideology certainly won't be toppled soon given the current (geo)political climate. I don't see neo-colonialist or what-have-you expansion grinding to a halt soon, either.

[thefinalmarch]

It'd help peace in the Middle East. Baby steps.
A one-state "solution" won't materialise without war.

Which side do you expect to win such a war anyway? Palestine has no chance of it tbh and Israel's looking pretty aggressive right 'bout now. If in the foreseeable future there's a single state existing in the territory now occupied by Israel and Palestine, it will be Israeli.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

ive heard liberal zionists say similar things



Brilliant. Well done. That's exactly how the mid-east conflict will be solved: call every opposing opinion that of a 'liberal zionist'.

Why don't you tag my post again and come back with something a bit more constructive?

Re: my first point, i've already stated that I, like everyone else, struggle to foresee how the current conflict can be solved, given that there is obviously one side (the Zionists) in whose interest it is to perpetuate the struggle so they can continue their imperialist domination of the region, continue to receive massive amounts of aid and weapons from the US etc.

[molotovcocktail]

The reason to the left`s antisemitic label, is because of leftists are traditionally against Zionism. It is just a label the left have gotten because the pro-Israel movement got no arguments. They just call everyone who question Israel antisemitic.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I am quite amazed by the way people constantly talk about their differing 'solutions' as if there actually is a solution, one state, two state, or otherwise.

Devrim

So basically you are taking a nihilistic approach of "there is no solution so fuck it"?

Why exactly is their no solution?

[Devrim]

So basically you are taking a nihilistic approach of "there is no solution so fuck it"?

Why exactly is their no solution?

I don't think that it is in any way nihilistic to try to understand what the balance of forces both in the region and internationally is as opposed to constructing abstract 'solutions' based upon political desires rather than what is actually happening in reality.

How do you imagine that this one state solution is going to come about? Do you think that those who run the Israeli state are about to sit down and give it all up in order to construct a state based upon equality and social justice? Or perhaps you think that some so-called 'international community' will suddenly decide that it has had the wrong approach for all of these years and force Israel to do the decent thing? Or even the Palestinian national movement, after 63 years of defeat, will suddenly win a comprehensive victory?

To be honest I am not sure which of them is more naive.

The most likely scenario is that the status quo continues. Within this possibility is a faint chance that negotiations will come up with some sort of 'two state solution'. However, any two state solution will only see the 'state' of Palestine turned into some sort of 'bantustan', which is effectively what it is now.

A second possibility is what the Israeli far-right sees as its 'final solution'. The expulsion of the Palestinians to Jordan.

The third possibility would be a Palestinian victory. Another poster pointed out what that would mean:


A one-state "solution" won't materialise without war.

Which side do you expect to win such a war anyway? Palestine has no chance of it tbh and Israel's looking pretty aggressive right 'bout now. If in the foreseeable future there's a single state existing in the territory now occupied by Israel and Palestine, it will be Israeli.

Currently there is no possibility whatsoever of a Palestinian military victory. It is something that I believe could not be achieved without a major change in the international balance of terror, and full scale regional war.

As I see it the options open are continuation of the horror we have today, mass ethnic cleansing or a full scale regional war, none of which look particularly attractive.

I don't believe that there can be a solution which any sort of socialist could support within capitalism. A real solution to the issue can only be found in the emergence of a massive working class movement across the region and ultimately across the world.

Devrim

[Martin Blank]

such as?... ive never heard socialists use racist comments or slogans ...why would socialists be racist... or even zionist?

And I never said it was organized socialists who were using anti-Semitic slogans or making anti-Semitic comments. Individuals, yes. But not the organizations. What the organizations do is turn a blind eye to anti-Semitic slogans or comments made by those individuals, because they believe that "anti-imperialism" means the same as uncritical cheerleading.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

such as?... ive never heard socialists use racist comments or slogans ...why would socialists be racist...
or even zionist?

The problem is with Socialists who blame pretty much any problem anywhere in the world on Zionists, as if Israel is somehow responsible for events on the other side of the globe. The problem, obviously, is that it plays into the "Jews control the world" stereotype and has nothing to do with opposing colonialism in the Middle East.


how would the left do that?ive heard liberal zionists say similar things
What S&T said has nothing to do with liberal zionists. There are groups like Hamas which are racist organizations and should be called as such, that's not a "liberal zionist" position that's a position based on evidence. Any group which believes in the protocols of the elders of zion and cites it in its charter is full of shit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Modern_era). But there are some leftist groups which overlook those dirty facts in favor of some "anti-Imperialism" nonsense. You can oppose Zionism without resorting to crude racism.

[freepalestine]

The problem is with Socialists who blame pretty much any problem anywhere in the world on Zionists, as if Israel is somehow responsible for events on the other side of the globe. The problem, obviously, is that it plays into the "Jews control the world" stereotype and has nothing to do with opposing colonialism in the Middle East.

What S&T said has nothing to do with liberal zionists. There are groups like Hamas which are racist organizations and should be called as such, that's not a "liberal zionist" position that's a position based on evidence. Any group which believes in the protocols of the elders of zion and cites it in its charter is full of shit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Modern_era). But there are some leftist groups which overlook those dirty facts in favor of some "anti-Imperialism" nonsense. You can oppose Zionism without resorting to crude racism.well ,ive never heard 'socialists' say anything like what you just said.where have you heard them say anything like that?on the internet?
as for the post you mentioned it seemed very much like what i would hear left zionists say(,rather than liberal zionists).also the question of how "The left needs to change tack in terms of its long-run strategy towards the question of Zionism." ,was never answered.

ok ,thanks for your info on hamas,i'm kind of aware of them,as my family background is/was from Palestine.
and i'm fully aware of zionism.

[Rafiq]

The Palestinian workers are stuck with either the PLO & Fateh, who are basically conformists to colonialism, or they have Hamas, which is at best an extremely anti-proletarian and reactionary organization.

I see the only way for the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a genuine proletarian uprising inside Israel itself. And by the looks of it, it looks somewhat realistic, at the way things are going.

[genstrike]

Honestly, I think this whole idea of anti-semitism on the left is seriously overblown. I my experience, the tiny amount of what could be describes as "anti-semitism on the left" out there comes not from serious leftists, but from the batfuck insane conspiracy theorists who are like fleas on our movements, and looney tunes internet people who spend their free time masturbating to Ron Paul.

I've been heavily involved with the Palestinian solidarity movement, and I can count on the tip of my penis the number of times I've seen someone say or do something that was seriously anti-semitic (and the person who said it was one of those nutty truthers). And on the rare occasion when there has been something questionable, it was immediately confronted and taken care of.

Honestly, I think a lot of this talk of "anti-semitism on the left" is just repeating the bullshit slander against the left, the Palestinian solidarity movement, and the BDS campaign.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I've never heard of racist socialism at all. Why someone would believe in racial or national inequality but not socio-economic hierarchy I don't know.

[OHumanista]

Never met a leftist anti-semite personally. (I've had quite a bit of involvement here in Brazil at least). Can't say about Europe though.
Plus nowadays zionists call anyone an anti-semite.:rolleyes:

[BE_]

I don't know why anyone on the left would be antisemitic because allot of key people in the left were of Jewish decent.

[انتفاضة الأقصى‎]

For the most part 'antisemitism' is exaggerated. The screaming of antisemitism has been used by the Zionist state and international proxy communities supporting the Zionist state to down talk all works questioning historical invents involving the Jewish community and Jewish identity politics in general. Antisemitism instead of being hatred of the Jewish people is now being classed as anything that the illegitimate Zionist state is against. Even Jews have been the targets of these claims in an attempt to silence their academic work. The Hebrew speaking Gilad Atzmon is a perfect example of this since he has released his works questioning Jewish identity politics he has been the subject of attack by Zionism due to his works being determined as risky to the Zionist state.

[freepalestine]

I don't know why anyone on the left would be antisemitic because allot of key people in the left were of Jewish decent.were?there still is.many are at the forefront of bds movements and against zionism/apartheid etc.

[BE_]

were?there still is.many are at the forefront of bds movements and against zionism/apartheid etc.

I didn't word that right, but yeah, there still is.

[انتفاضة الأقصى‎]

The Palestinian workers are stuck with either the PLO & Fateh, who are basically conformists to colonialism, or they have Hamas, which is at best an extremely anti-proletarian and reactionary organization.

I see the only way for the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a genuine proletarian uprising inside Israel itself. And by the looks of it, it looks somewhat realistic, at the way things are going.
"The Palestinian workers are stuck with either the PLO"
Not every faction in the PLO is a reformist faction there are still many good parties struggling for what was set as a destiny during the first and second intifadas. Parties such as the PFLP and the PFLP-GC offer the Palestinian people a future of socialist liberation and the right to return to the lands of their fathers that was taken from them by the occupier during nakba and afterward the 1967 war. The DFLP and PRC too are friends of the proletariat that reject the lies of negotiations with a party that only wants to concrete its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in a legitimate form.
"Fateh"
The young guard in Fatah is the only section of the party that truly represents the old views that Fatah promised during the intifada and even before that after the tragedy of Black September in Jordan. The young guard have made many gains in the past few years against the old guard that chooses to work with the occupational forces as security. Unfortunately so much of the struggle of the young guard has been overshadowed by the sectarianism of the old guard with the democratically elected Hamas that took away many seats from the old guard after the people of Palestine were won over by the Islamic Resistance Movement's ability to give charity, resist and give promises of a future that doesn't involve a legitimized occupation.
"they have Hamas, which is at best an extremely anti-proletarian and reactionary organization."
Hamas is a revolutionary nationalist organization. Hamas is at its core an Islamic resistance movement of the Sunni variety that has been able to provide to the people of Palestine in ways that other parties following Oslo were not able to. 90 percent of Hamas's annual budget goes to the people of Palestine in the form of charity which is hardly anti-proletarian. Hamas while not a socialist organization is hardly an organization that some Americans and Europeans have described it as. It is an organization that has won the respect of the Palestinian people through justified everyday struggle and promising never to give up until the intifada is complete. This is one of the reasons that parties like the PFLP which is apart of the PLO want to work with the Hamas because they know that Hamas is a genuine organization that means what they say unlike other organizations in the area.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I don't think that it is in any way nihilistic to try to understand what the balance of forces both in the region and internationally is as opposed to constructing abstract 'solutions' based upon political desires rather than what is actually happening in reality.It isn't, however, the wilful refusal to support a solution, to push for one, whether it's new or old, that reeks of nihilistic thought.


How do you imagine that this one state solution is going to come about? Do you think that those who run the Israeli state are about to sit down and give it all up in order to construct a state based upon equality and social justice? Or perhaps you think that some so-called 'international community' will suddenly decide that it has had the wrong approach for all of these years and force Israel to do the decent thing? Or even the Palestinian national movement, after 63 years of defeat, will suddenly win a comprehensive victory?
It will come about, most likely as the result of socialist revolution, or if prior to that, as a result of a regional war.


To be honest I am not sure which of them is more naive.

The most likely scenario is that the status quo continues. Within this possibility is a faint chance that negotiations will come up with some sort of 'two state solution'. However, any two state solution will only see the 'state' of Palestine turned into some sort of 'bantustan', which is effectively what it is now.

A second possibility is what the Israeli far-right sees as its 'final solution'. The expulsion of the Palestinians to Jordan.

The third possibility would be a Palestinian victory. Another poster pointed out what that would mean:



Currently there is no possibility whatsoever of a Palestinian military victory. It is something that I believe could not be achieved without a major change in the international balance of terror, and full scale regional war.

As I see it the options open are continuation of the horror we have today, mass ethnic cleansing or a full scale regional war, none of which look particularly attractive.

I don't believe that there can be a solution which any sort of socialist could support within capitalism. A real solution to the issue can only be found in the emergence of a massive working class movement across the region and ultimately across the world.

DevrimYes, and in instances, certain "solutions" need to be supported. In this case, a one state solution which will unify the Israeli and Palestinian proletariat against their reactionary current governments and "front-men".

I do not seek a Palestinian or an Israeli victory, but a working class victory, over the imperialist Israeli government and Zionists, and over the reactionary Islamist and the bourgeoisie of the regions. Is it likely to occur under capitalism, or any time soon? No. Though, I support it, because there is no way the current status quo will be sustainable, a complete Israeli takeover acceptable, or a two-state solution feasible. We must oppose the ideas that are counter to the international struggle, and support those that benefit it.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Post-Zionism, then? It seeks unity between Jews, Druze, Israeli non-Palestinian Arabs, Palestinians, etc. in a single multi-ethnic state. Some post-Zionists go so far as the suggest ongoing cultural interaction between them, as opposed to multicultural ghettoes. [Of course, many post-Zionists prefer a social-democratic rather than a socialist outcome.]

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The Palestinian workers are stuck with either the PLO & Fateh, who are basically conformists to colonialism, or they have Hamas, which is at best an extremely anti-proletarian and reactionary organization.
What about the PFLP?

[Rafiq]

What about the PFLP?



The PFLP is extremely small, anyway.

[freepalestine]

"The Palestinian workers are stuck with either the PLO"
Not every faction in the PLO is a reformist faction there are still many good parties struggling for what was set as a destiny during the first and second intifadas. Parties such as the PFLP and the PFLP-GC offer the Palestinian people a future of socialist liberation and the right to return to the lands of their fathers that was taken from them by the occupier during nakba and afterward the 1967 war. The DFLP and PRC too are friends of the proletariat that reject the lies of negotiations with a party that only wants to concrete its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in a legitimate form.
"Fateh"
The young guard in Fatah ..
you could mention all groups in PLO except maybe fateh , are leftist.FIDA,ALF,PLF,PPSF,PPP communist party,and maybe PNI..to name what i remember


The PFLP is extremely small, anyway.oh,are they?



انتفاضة الأقصى@
i hope with the unity agreement,that a better unified voting system,p.r. or something is used.and allow all Palestinians the vote.considering that over half of Palestinians are outside All Palestine

[Rafiq]

oh,are they?


Yes, they are actually. Which means that if you are a supporter of the PFLP than I would advise to "Step up your game", as they say.

[Rodrigo]

Antisemitism and left-wing can't be combined.

[~Spectre]

These meta-debate threads are always fruitless.

If you think a leftist is using anti-semitic rhetoric, then call that person out. Asking
"Why is the left anti-semitic?" and all other variants of that same loaded question, isn't really productive, nor accurate.

Finally, out of all other parts of the political "spectrum", the left probably has the lowest number of anti-semites. I doubt it even comes close to what you see from "the center" and certainly "the right".

[freepalestine]

Yes, they are actually. ....
no theyre not:tt2:

[The Idler]

For the most part 'antisemitism' is exaggerated. The screaming of antisemitism has been used by the Zionist state and international proxy communities supporting the Zionist state to down talk all works questioning historical invents involving the Jewish community and Jewish identity politics in general. Antisemitism instead of being hatred of the Jewish people is now being classed as anything that the illegitimate Zionist state is against. Even Jews have been the targets of these claims in an attempt to silence their academic work. The Hebrew speaking Gilad Atzmon is a perfect example of this since he has released his works questioning Jewish identity politics he has been the subject of attack by Zionism due to his works being determined as risky to the Zionist state.


Atzmon is a perfect example of anti-semitism which is condemned by supporters and critics of Zionism alike.

[Devrim]

It will come about, most likely as the result of socialist revolution, or if prior to that, as a result of a regional war.

Certainly a regional war would be a terrible prospect for the working class, resulting in mass ethnic cleansing, and workers in the belligerent states becoming more tired to their own national bourgeoisie

I don't think that there is any prospect at all for a socialist revolution to develop from the situation in Palestine. The Palestinian working class is the most defeated in the entire region, and even when it does embark on struggles in its own interests, they invariable get dragged into faction fights between different nationalist factions. Indeed the last big strike in Palestine, the teachers/public sector strike a few years ago, ended up with demonstrations being transformed into battles between HAMAS and Fateh supporters.

To be honest, I think that the only real perspective for change can come form outside of Palestine itself, and from a massive working class movement across the entire region, which is the only thing that I can see that would be able to play a part in the emergence of a real class movement in Palestine.

But then if everything is up for question, what the relevance of the idea of a 'one state solution' would be in a genuine working class movement, which would be against all states and national boundaries is highly doubtful. Particularly more so when we remember that the present borders in the Middle East were all created in within the lifetimes of people still living today.

Devrim

[Die Rote Fahne]

Certainly a regional war would be a terrible prospect for the working class, resulting in mass ethnic cleansing, and workers in the belligerent states becoming more tired to their own national bourgeoisieI agree. It would be the worst way for it to come about, and would certainly render the single state obsolete.


I don't think that there is any prospect at all for a socialist revolution to develop from the situation in Palestine. The Palestinian working class is the most defeated in the entire region, and even when it does embark on struggles in its own interests, they invariable get dragged into faction fights between different nationalist factions. Indeed the last big strike in Palestine, the teachers/public sector strike a few years ago, ended up with demonstrations being transformed into battles between HAMAS and Fateh supporters. What better way to push for one than the unity of Palestinian and Israeli workers?

Now, of course I don't expect this to happen right away, and it would be a much better thing to see it occur without some devastating event. However, in terms of internationalism and worker unity, a single, multi-ethnic state would be the best solution.


To be honest, I think that the only real perspective for change can come form outside of Palestine itself, and from a massive working class movement across the entire region, which is the only thing that I can see that would be able to play a part in the emergence of a real class movement in Palestine.I think you are quite right.


But then if everything is up for question, what the relevance of the idea of a 'one state solution' would be in a genuine working class movement, which would be against all states and national boundaries is highly doubtful. Particularly more so when we remember that the present borders in the Middle East were all created in within the lifetimes of people still living today.

Devrim
It's relevance in a post-revolutionary society is in question, indeed. Which is why I think it is beneficial to the struggle, if the single state were to emerge to create unity amongst the working classes there, that can then push for revolution.

[Belleraphone]

Historically speaking, Bakunin hated Jews, Marx was suspicious of them.


For modern leftists? Remember that many heads of corporations are Jewish, Jews are the richest ethnic group in America, Israel isn't helping either. Some leftists probably see them as barriers to progress, in many cases they are. Only the elite Jews of course, the majority of them, just like any other race, are good people.

[~Spectre]

Historically speaking, Bakunin hated Jews, Marx was suspicious of them.

Bakunin was a crackpot. Marx was a Jew.



Israel isn't helping either. Some leftists probably see them as barriers to progress, in many cases they are. Only the elite Jews of course, the majority of them, just like any other race, are good people.

There is no "them". Race is a construct. "Elite Jews" aren't a problem. "Elites" are a problem.

[tir1944]

Marx was a Jew.
Maybe by Ben-Gurion's criteria...:rolleyes:
Also what kind of an argument is that?
There are antisemites who are also 100% Jewish by ethnicity.

[~Spectre]

Maybe by Ben-Gurion's criteria...:rolleyes:
Also what kind of an argument is that?
There are antisemites who are also 100% Jewish by ethnicity.

That I doubt Marx was "suspicious" of himself.

And yes there are ethnically Jewish anti-semites, but we identify them as such because they do things like deny the holocaust, or preach a global Jewish conspiracy, etc.

Marx did no such things, and in fact was a life long victim of anti-semitism. The only people that try to smear him with the charge of anti-semitism are those that butcher certain passages of "On the Jewish Question" as a means of propaganda.

Finally, if you reject a criteria of "ethnic Judaism", and identify Jewishness only by fervent religiosity (a favorite tactic of the extreme right zionists), then you run the risk of debasing the charge of anti-semitism. Dislike of a religious practice isn't a prejudice, it's a judgement. All religion is silly.

To be honest, I'm starting to detect hints of Anti-semitism in how you slander a lifelong victim of anti-semitic prejudice as "not Jewish enough". What's really going on here Tir1944? Perhaps I should start a thread about this.

[tir1944]

To be honest, I'm starting to detect hints of Anti-semitism in how you slander a lifelong victim of anti-semitic prejudice as "not Jewish enough". What's really going on here Tir1944?
What? Who is doing that...i don't understand.:confused:
Please explain.

[Void]

Nothing against Jews but would like to see end of Judaism as well as any other religion... Three Monotheist religions of middle east Christianity, Islam, Judaism have caused the most harm on earth indirectly (Actions made in the name of religion, fanaticism, being drug, numerous negative sides...) And both Islam and Christianity have roots from Judaism...

Judaism is the special case because this is a religion which is overidentified with a certain group of people, most of the time they both can't be thought differently. however any person from a group of people may become Christian or Muslim easily.

So removal of Christianity and Islam will be relatively easier in time in the future. But each action taken against Judaism may offend some Jews.. They like it or not, they should solve this problem themselves for the good. God's chosen people myth is way disturbing, even some Christians and Muslims believe in this or they must believe that way since almost all prophets they believe are Jewish.

I believe that end of antisemitism can only find place on an earth which is totally freed of any religion.

A true communist should have no religion and try to cleanse all the subconscious metaphysic dirt maybe he/she was imposed in childhood as religious teaching and keep the same distance to each religion.

There is even no need to mention about Zionism. A communist is against every community/idea which does not desire a leftist future for any group of people or whole world. So this can be Zionism or X or Y... All should be opposed.

[阿部高和]

Using the argument that there is antisemitism on the left is an apparent device meant to draw away criticism from Israel based on the assumption that one is discriminating against jews for doing so, when in fact most of us from Asia and such see it as white western occupation not Jewish occupation.

[A Marxist Historian]

That I doubt Marx was "suspicious" of himself.

And yes there are ethnically Jewish anti-semites, but we identify them as such because they do things like deny the holocaust, or preach a global Jewish conspiracy, etc.

Marx did no such things, and in fact was a life long victim of anti-semitism. The only people that try to smear him with the charge of anti-semitism are those that butcher certain passages of "On the Jewish Question" as a means of propaganda.

Finally, if you reject a criteria of "ethnic Judaism", and identify Jewishness only by fervent religiosity (a favorite tactic of the extreme right zionists), then you run the risk of debasing the charge of anti-semitism. Dislike of a religious practice isn't a prejudice, it's a judgement. All religion is silly.

To be honest, I'm starting to detect hints of Anti-semitism in how you slander a lifelong victim of anti-semitic prejudice as "not Jewish enough". What's really going on here Tir1944? Perhaps I should start a thread about this.

m hm.

During Marx's lifetime, there was very little of a Jewish working class in the world, and especially in Germany. So no, Marx didn't get involved in Jewish affairs much at all, and did not shirk from saying unpleasant things about Jewish petty-bourgeois and bourgeois reactionaries. And didn't *emphasize* his strong stand for Jewish rights.

But it certainly existed. The original Rheinische Zeitung edited by Marx in the early 1840s was funded by Jewish businessmen in the Rhineland, and naturally emphasized defending Jewish rights vs. German anti-Semitism.

What's more, all those allegedly "anti-Jewish" lines in "On the Jewish Question" were taken right from his then close political ally, Moses Hess, the founder of "socialist Zionism." Here's a partially accurate Wikipedia entry about Hess, off on some details as usual with Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Hess

And when the first major Jewish working class developed, in the East End of London around about when Marx died, his daughter Jenny got highly involved in organizing them.

-M.H.-

[Belleraphone]

Bakunin was a crackpot. Marx was a Jew.



There is no "them". Race is a construct. "Elite Jews" aren't a problem. "Elites" are a problem.
You've never read Bakunin, have you? Also, I was answering the OP's question, which is why some on the left are anti-semetic. I answered his question, please try to pay attention.

Marx was suspicious of Jews, even if he was Jewish himself. Read Marx.

[Die Rote Fahne]

"Why do you come to me with your special Jewish sorrows? I feel just as sorry for the wretched Indian victims in Putamayo, the Negroes in Africa.... I cannot find a special corner in my heart for the ghetto. I feel at home in the entire world wherever there are clouds and birds and human tears." - Rosa Luxemburg

I'm surprised she hasn't been called an anti-Semite by the Zionists. I'll await it if one sees the quote.

[Seth]

You've never read Bakunin, have you? Also, I was answering the OP's question, which is why some on the left are anti-semetic. I answered his question, please try to pay attention.

Marx was suspicious of Jews, even if he was Jewish himself. Read Marx.

Yeah, totally.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EFtNhvRZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Belleraphone]

Yeah, totally.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EFtNhvRZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

"What is the object of the Jew's worship in this world? Usury. What is his worldly god? Money.
Karl Marx

[Ismail]

Karl MarxYeah, and? He was making a point that the Jews must be freed from Judaism as it was understood in medieval times. His work was a ringing defense of the Jews against anti-semitism.


One thing to remember about this time period in which Marx was writing is that most Christians actually adhered to the axiom, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be". The old version of the Lord's Prayer included the line, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those who are indebted to us"; it would take the further advance of both capitalism and Protestantism before this was changed to, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us". "Money changing" -- banking, commerce, etc. -- was considered an almost exclusively Jewish activity, done on behalf of Christians, in medieval and even early capitalist Europe (primarily in Catholic-dominant areas).

The "practical need" and importance of "self-interest" for European Jews was understandable. "Huckstering" (commerce; trading) was a way to have to place in the economic and political life of Europe at that time. And, of course, all of that was tied to "money", which drove the burgeoning capitalist system.

A little further down in the text, Marx writes: "The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews."

In other words, because of the growth of capitalism, the old Christian concept of commerce and money-handling being against the teachings of Jesus became a relic. Christians began handling their own commercial and trading activity alongside Jews. Thus, insofar as commerce was seen as the embodiment of being Jewish hitherto, you saw with the rise of capitalism the end of this embodiment and relative exclusivity. "The Christians have become Jews".

(It should also be noted here that the entire intent of Marx's document was to argue for the full citizenship rights of Jews as Jews, as opposed to the view of his interlocutor, Bruno Bauer, who argued that Jews could only become citizens by abandoning their religion.)A work (http://laroucheplanet.info/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Library.PalimpsestWorld) on the political travels of Lyndon LaRouche also mentions the early socialists on Judaism:

LaRouche clearly glossed some of his arguments from Karl Kautsky and other "assimilationist" Marxists from both the 19th and 20th centuries. These theorists claimed that Judaism was so linked to European medieval society that the disappearance of medieval feudal society with the growth of capitalism also heralded the end of Judaism. As Kautsky put it in Rasse und Judentum -- a work that strongly argued against "racial" pseudo-science theory -- "We will not have completely emerged from the Middle Ages as long as Judaism still remains among us. The more quickly it disappears, the better it will be for society and for the Jews themselves." Or to quote the Austrian Socialist leader Victor Adler, the elimination of both private property and the power of money "would finally lead the Wandering Jew to his tomb."

Neither Kautsky nor Adler were "political anti-Semites" and as leading Social Democrats they strongly opposed the anti-Semitic political parties of their time. Yet their crude economic reductionist interpretation of Judaism led both of them to dismiss demands for cultural and political autonomy that emerged from the Yiddish Renaissance movement in places like Austrian Galicia and Bukovina even as the Austrian Social Democrats supported the creation of Czech language schools in Vienna. Because Jews were a "caste" and not a "historical nation," theoreticians like Kautsky and Adler said they had no right to demand any kind of political or cultural autonomy unlike the Catholic Czechs of "Bohemia."

The Western Left's view of the actual anti-Semitic parties was surprisingly cavalier particularly when one recalls that this also was the time of renewed violent pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. The expression of anti-Semitic views even was written off as just a "first naïve form of anti-capitalism" in the words of Austrian Socialist Otto Bauer. Nor, of course, was the reduction of Jews and Judaism to narrow economic categories unique to the Socialists. Max Weber, for example, defined "the Jews as a 'caste' or a 'pariah people' (Pariavolk) rooted in a form of "capitalism oriented toward speculation, a capitalism of pariahs' (Pariakapitalismus)." Neither Kautsky nor Weber could ever imagine the coming of the Holocaust since they viewed both Judaism and anti-Semitism as relics of a medieval past rooted in pre-capitalist agrarian society. The fact that the worst pogroms took place in the most backward parts of Europe only seemed to prove the point.

[Belleraphone]

Yeah, and? He was making a point that the Jews must be freed from Judaism as it was understood in medieval times. His work was a ringing defense of the Jews against anti-semitism.

Karl Marx was suspicious of Jews, I am not saying this totally makes all of his work irrelevant (it dosen't.) But it's there. Marx was concerned with liberating the proleteriat, not those of a different skin color.

[Ismail]

Marx was concerned with liberating the proleteriat, not those of a different skin color."A nation that enslaves another forges its own chains."

You've provided no evidence that Marx was "suspicious" of Jews. Was he suspicious of Moses Hess and other early socialists who influenced him?

[Belleraphone]

"A nation that enslaves another forges its own chains."

You've provided no evidence that Marx was "suspicious" of Jews. Was he suspicious of Moses Hess and other early socialists who influenced him?

The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races." Neue Rheinische Zeitung

[Ismail]

The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races." Neue Rheinische ZeitungIn reference to the terrible conditions of Jewish ghettos.

From a 1984 work (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/02-ruszion.htm) by a Jewish Trotskyist:

... the old Jewish slums were notoriously filthy: “Two Jews and one cheese make three smells” was an old Polish proverb. Karl Marx was only being matter-of-fact when he remarked that “The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races.” The early Jewish labour movement had to instill a desire for cleanliness into their members and insist that they clean and paint their homes and give their children clean clothing. Jabotinsky himself later referred to “the grime of the ghetto”.

[Seth]

The Jews of Poland are the smeariest of all races." Neue Rheinische Zeitung

Why don't you just save us the trouble and divulge the list of Marx quotes you just googled, so they can be addressed.

[Belleraphone]

Those are the only two quotes I had, but to me stereotyping the Jews (criticizing them for being money-loving) is anti-semetic.

[Ismail]

Those are the only two quotes I had, but to me stereotyping the Jews (criticizing them for being money-loving) is anti-semetic.It wasn't a stereotype. Jews were literally forced into conducting usury in the medieval ages and were thus the subject of pogroms and literal demonization. They largely occupied a definite economic category.

[Belleraphone]

It wasn't a stereotype. Jews were literally forced into conducting usury in the medieval ages and were thus the subject of pogroms and literal demonization. They largely occupied a definite economic category.
But were they still being forced when Marx wrote them? A stereotype is a stereotype, even if there's a reason to believe that stereotype is true.

[Ismail]

But were they still being forced when Marx wrote them?Of course they were, why else did Marx write what he did? He wasn't talking about stereotypes, he was talking about definite economic conditions.

Read it yourself, it's pretty obvious that his subject is economic in nature and not "ho-ho-ho, those Jews sure like money": http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/

[Belleraphone]

Really, I thought the policy of forcing Jews to bank ended after the Middle Ages. Well, I guess that would put it into context. I've been proven wrong twice now today :(

[RED DAVE]

Perhaps the finest Marxist work on the Jews, by a Belgian Jewish Trotskyist mudered by the nazis.

The Jewish Question - by Abram Leon (http://www.marxists.de/religion/leon/)

RED DAVE

[NewLeft]

There is also a problem of 'left' fundamentalists who blindingly support Palestine. Why support Palestine when they have nothing to offer to our struggle? I do not support zionism or the Palestinian right to self-determination.

[Belleraphone]

There is also a problem of 'left' fundamentalists who blindingly support Palestine. Why support Palestine when they have nothing to offer to our struggle?
Leftists support Human Rights and are opposed to Zionism since it is a racist ideology.

[Geiseric]

There is also a problem of 'left' fundamentalists who blindingly support Palestine. Why support Palestine when they have nothing to offer to our struggle? I do not support zionism or the Palestinian right to self-determination.

All oppressed nations should have the right to self determination, HAMAS doesn't really represent all palestinians... How could you not support that? They're being genocided by the zionists. Would you rather have it as they exist as an oppressed nationality in Israel?

What does any nation have to offer in "our struggle" (whatever that means.) The working classes of all nations have their power as a class to offer the socialist struggle.

[blake 3:17]

There is also a problem of 'left' fundamentalists who blindingly support Palestine. Why support Palestine when they have nothing to offer to our struggle? I do not support zionism or the Palestinian right to self-determination.


The difference is that we are witness to the physical destruction of the Palestinian people as Israel continues with its expansionist policies.

[Wanted Man]

So after 4 pages of distraction and misrepresentation, does anyone have anything concrete to say about "antisemitism on the left"? Didn't think so.

[A Marxist Historian]

Yeah, totally.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EFtNhvRZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Um, has it occurred to you that the title of that book comes not from Marx but from that Dogbert fellow, who is either an anti-Semite or just a Marx basher?

A marvelous example of how advertising is used to deceive, which you have bought into.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Karl Marx was suspicious of Jews, I am not saying this totally makes all of his work irrelevant (it dosen't.) But it's there. Marx was concerned with liberating the proleteriat, not those of a different skin color.

This is just nonsense. an old totally false capitalist slander vs. Marx, it's sad to see people here buying into it.

For those who want to know the real story about Marx and the Jews, there was a brilliant piece by Hal Draper that should have put this myth to bed once and for all.

And here's the link.

http://marxists.org/archive/draper/1977/kmtr1/app1.htm

-M.H.-