US interventions.

[Susurrus]

I'm speaking mostly of the Iraq and Afghan wars. Although the US's motives are quite obviously foul, it seems to me that, objectively, the invasion has made life better for the people in those countries, EDIT: in terms of removing tyrannical dictatorships . I'm not saying we should thank the US or anything, but the fact is, the invasion happened, and if the US et al were to pull out immediately, the country would descend into civil war between factions that do not care about the people of those countries any more than the US. We should try to show solidarity with the people of those countries, and help them to establish a greater leftist movement if we can.

Thoughts?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

A million people were killed in Iraq as a result of the invasion...along with all those millions who fled and those who stayed but lived without water,electricity,or jobs.I wouldn't call this "better."

[RedHal]

I'm speaking mostly of the Iraq and Afghan wars. Although the US's motives are quite obviously foul, it seems to me that, objectively, the invasion has made life better for the people in those countries. I'm not saying we should thank the US or anything, but the fact is, the invasion happened, and if the US et al were to pull out immediately, the country would descend into civil war between factions that do not care about the people of those countries any more than the US. We should try to show solidarity with the people of those countries, and help them to establish a greater leftist movement if we can.

Thoughts?

Go fuck yourself!

[MustCrushCapitalism]

I really think asking about people's opinions on the American interventions in the middle east on any non-neoconservative forum should get you some very obvious answers.

The war in Iraq wasn't about freeing the Iraqi people, it was about the price of oil.

[/URL][URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_A_2XPLN4M (http://%3Ca%20href=%22http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_A_2XPLN4M%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3Ehtt p://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_A_2XPLN4M%3C/a%3E) (good song on the topic)

[Susurrus]

Go fuck yourself!

Such a helpful comment.

[Susurrus]

The war in Iraq wasn't about freeing the Iraqi people, it was about the price of oil.



I said that. I'm not justifying the US's reasoning, nor their idiotic and torturous methods, I'm simply saying that the people of those countries are slightly more free, and that is a good thing, and allows for criticism and protest without being shot on the street with official sanction by the government, or being stoned for idiotic religious cruelty.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I said that. I'm not justifying the US's reasoning, nor their idiotic and torturous methods, I'm simply saying that the people of those countries are slightly more free, and that is a good thing, and allows for criticism and protest without being shot on the street with official sanction by the government, or being stoned for idiotic religious cruelty.

I think if Saddam were still ruling today the "Arab Spring" protests would be sweeping Iraq.

Sooner or later the people will free themselves.

[Susurrus]

I think if Saddam were still ruling today the "Arab Spring" protests would be sweeping Iraq.

Sooner or later the people will free themselves.

By all reports his regime was quite a bit more willing and able to kill people. If such a thing did happen, it would probably turn into a civil war much like the one in Libya, except for a great deal more use of chemical weapons. Plus, the US would almost certainly intervene then as well, for the oil.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I'm speaking mostly of the Iraq and Afghan wars. Although the US's motives are quite obviously foul, it seems to me that, objectively, the invasion has made life better for the people in those countries, EDIT: in terms of removing tyrannical dictatorships . I'm not saying we should thank the US or anything, but the fact is, the invasion happened, and if the US et al were to pull out immediately, the country would descend into civil war between factions that do not care about the people of those countries any more than the US. We should try to show solidarity with the people of those countries, and help them to establish a greater leftist movement if we can.

Thoughts?

In Iraq the US invasion triggered a civil war in which close to a million people were killed.There are also close to 4 million refugees-2 million who left the country, 2 million who were forced to leave their homes inside Iraq. The US invasion and the civil war it triggered utterly devastated the country.It will take generations for Iraq to recover.

In Afghanistan the Taliban had been created by the US and its Pakistani ally. The Karzai regime is a weak, very corrupt puppet government which is utterly despised by the Afghan people.The "Afghan government" really only controls an area around Kabul. The rest of the country is either controlled by warlords or the Taliban. Karzai's brother (killed recently) was a gangster and major drug gang leader. The US occupation directly or indirectly is creating a new generation of warlords who will rapidly take over once the US leaves.

The condition of women was horrible under the Taliban (and this has gotten much publicity in the media) but things are not much different in most of the country today.

The US is playing the "Great Game" for geopolitical influence in Asia and to encircle China, the capitalist state that is the US's biggest rival.As part of this Obama is basically trying to work out a deal with the Taliban so the US can leave. The US wants to keep permanent bases in Afghanistan which the Taliban won't accept. That's why the US is still there.

Its important to understand Afghan history. Google the Sauer Revolution or look up Afghanistan threads on RevLeft.

[DaringMehring]

US interventions ---- should be opposed, period.

Pulling out? Immediately. You say it'd cause civil war... how is staying in any better? With us in, it is a civil war (loosely interpreted) except we're backing one side. Whenever we leave, it will be some sort of civil war (loosely interpreted) with us continuing to back one side.

If you say, stay in for their sake, you are essentially saying our bourgeois government cares about "their sake." Unlike you, I have no trust in those mass murderers. They only make things worse.

The only way out is socialist revolution, here, there, and all over the world.

[eyeheartlenin]

Anyone who actually, really, truly, believes that phreaking "Shock and Awe," the immoral and appalling US attack on Baghdad, a major civilian center, "made life better" for Iraqis, should definitely visit Iraq, so that he can see, with his own eyes, whether the unprovoked war, unleashed by the US government, against the unfortunate Iraqis, "made life better" in that defenseless country.

[tfb]

Thank God that America saved Iraq from a dictator! Imagine what could have happened to Iraqis under a dictator like that: a million of them could have been killed, millions of them could have been displaced... !

Thank you, Lord, for sending us George W. Bush.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think if Saddam were still ruling today the "Arab Spring" protests would be sweeping Iraq.

Sooner or later the people will free themselves.

The "Arab Spring" protests did hit Iraq, incidentally, back when protests outside of Tunisia and Egypt were starting to pick up steam, and the protestors faced some pretty harsh repression. Which was conveniently ignored (for the most part) in US media.


The first months of this year have been grim for free speech in Iraq.

As revolts swept across the Middle East and North Africa, they spread to Iraqi cities and towns, but took on a very different cast.

In February, in places like Baghdad, Fallujah, Mosul and Tikrit, protesters took to the streets, intent on reform - focused on ending corruption and the chronic shortages of food, water, electricity and jobs - but not toppling the government of prime minister Nuri al-Maliki.

The response by government security forces, who have arrested, beaten, and shot protesters, leaving hundreds dead or wounded, however, was similar to that of other autocratic rulers around the region.

Attacks by Iraqi forces on freedom of the press, in the form of harassment, detention, and assaults on individual journalists, raids of radio stations, the offices of newspapers and press freedom groups have also shown the dark side of Maliki's regime.

Many journalists have been prevented from covering protests or have curtailed their reporting in response to brutality, raising the spectre of a return to the days of Saddam Hussein's regime when press freedom was a fiction.

Maliki's US allies, however, have turned a blind eye to the violence and repression, with the top spokesman for the US military in Iraq praising the same Iraqi units which eyewitnesses have identified as key players in the crackdown while ignoring the outrages attributed to them.

In addition to providing training to these units, the US military is currently focused on upgrading the capabilities of the Iraqi security forces, including the creation a national intelligence and operations centre and more sophisticated use and understanding of social media, which some fear may further increase state repression.

No matter how pretty the democratic decorations are, when power gets threatened it all gets ripped down, revealing just a grim brick wall. :rolleyes:

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Iraq is in a worse state than before the intervention. What are you even talking about?

It was reported in 2006 over 600,000 Iraqi's had been killed as a result of the invasion. There are some studies that suggest that number is over a million now, as of 2011.
All that, plus mass migration to other countries due to the violence.
Plus mass plundering of natural resources and historical artifacts, both things that are highly valuable in Iraq.

Yup, sure sounds better off!
Saddam would of been taken out of power sooner or later, they didn't need our "help."
We only added to the body count, along with capitalist profits.

[Sendo]

I think if Saddam were still ruling today the "Arab Spring" protests would be sweeping Iraq.

Sooner or later the people will free themselves.

Know how many Americans doubt that logic? Paternalism is a pervasive disorder. I know that ending slavery in 1865 (as opposed to 1895) was good, but I know slavery would have ended anyway. Yet there are still people who think if the Civil War never happened there would be slavery today.

As if the Haitian revolution never happened or chattel slavery was sill legal in any part of the world.

Every country that is free now has always been free, has copied the US, or has become free through the help of the US. South Korea went from the most dictatorial capitalist "republic" in East Asia (can't say if Taiwan was worse or not in the 1960s and 1970s) to being more progressive than Japan (they actually have more than one party here).

Of course, that's never taught to Americans. America freed Korea from the Japanese and our influence has kept them a perfect democracy from 1945 to the present. North Korea has always been a communist dictatorship. We need to start a second Korean War if Korea is to be free of hunger and poverty. Also, keep ignoring the fact that most presidents from Truman to Obama have done it all from planning assassinations and using UN troops to help coups d'etat to ramming illegal treaties through. Also, ignore the various uprisings from 1945 to 1988. Also in Asia, ignore the Tibetan theocracy and the British division of South Asia.

The French revolution should never be emulated.Not only were Americans not a part of it, but the Terror under the leftists resulted in a non-zero number of deaths!

So-called progressive friends have decried the Iraq and Afghanistan debacles but cheered NATO intervention in Libya. "We have to do something!" There's always this implicit expectation that the Western World alone is the beacon of hope and progress, and no matter how track record "this time, it's different."

Sussurus strikes me as exactly the same. Like we have the ability to help them through the arm of the greatest imperialist power in the world. The implicit thought that intervention is always an option. I never hear non-Westerners even treat intervention as an option. How would you react, Sussurus, if China dropped bombs on New York, LA, Washington and Chicago and said "Hey, at least we got rid of Obama. No more Patriot Act!"

[thefinalmarch]

"Making life better by removing tyrannical dictatorships" is precisely the same narrative the US uses to justify its actions abroad. At the end of the day, Afghan and Iraqi workers were able to elect new bourgeois rulers from a handful of bourgeois candidates.

Of course, we should always struggle to attain democratic rights where we are deprived of them, but in this particular case the new rights gained were negligible in that the new governments are still very much puppet regimes submissive to all US demands - it's not as if Afghan and Iraqi workers voting in recent elections would have been able to elect "progressive" candidates which would have evicted US troops or otherwise improved the conditions of the working class (e.g. by enacting significant labor reforms).

Negligible good came out of the invasions and ensuing wars.
A shitload of bad came out instead.