Wtf?

[Joseph S.]

Is the stuf mentioned in this clip tru???
9wCtvMS2XjA
Was having a discussion with a bonehead about equality of men on school wen he show'd me this (it kind of freeks me out if this is tru)

[Art Vandelay]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1050535&postcount=3

[Stork]

I've heard that Engel's expressed some, controversial things about the Irish. But even if that's true calling them racists for that is stupid, neither of them believe any of the tenants of racism, ie. Racial character and race-soul, though if these are taken out of context it could seem that way. That naz-bol calling Marx an anti-semite really has made my day though, his grandad was a Rabbi

[Joseph S.]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1050535&postcount=3
So it is tru?
:confused:

[PhoenixAsh]

So it is tru?
:confused:


no

[Zukunftsmusik]

I wouldn't say they were racist, not at all. But keep in mind that they lived in the 1800s. Some "mainstream" views were slightly different then. And don't take anything coming from Nazbols seriously.

[Joseph S.]

Marx an anti-semite really has made my day though, his grandad was a Rabbi
Your point being?
Some Jews even deny the holocaust like that guy from France (forgot his name)
and David Cole.

Hitler was a unofficial grand son of a Rothschild so according to his own laws also a part Jewish.

Doe any of these things discredit the things they have done ore say'd?

[Joseph S.]

And don't take anything coming from Nazbols seriously.
Wat are nazbols any way haven't heard of that term before tbh.

[Nox]

Wat are nazbols any way haven't heard of that term before tbh.

People who take the term 'Socialism in One Country' literally and replace 'Country' with 'Ethnicity'

[Joseph S.]

People who take the term 'Socialism in One Country' literally and replace 'Country' with 'Ethnicity'
I see
Kind of like the nsdap left wing wat's the 2 death guy's name again.
Thank you for the clarification on the subject

[Commissar Rykov]

Your point being?
Some Jews even deny the holocaust like that guy from France (forgot his name)
and David Cole.

Hitler was a unofficial grand son of a Rothschild so according to his own laws also a part Jewish.

Doe any of these things discredit the things they have done ore say'd?
Hitler wasn't a Rothschild. Fuckin' A lay off the crack and stop listening to Conspiracy Theorists and Anti-Semites.

[Stork]

I see
Kind of like the nsdap left wing wat's the 2 death guy's name again.
Thank you for the clarification on the subject
Strasser.
But nazbols are just people with aesthetic appreciation of both Nazi Germany and the USSR and form a half-baked ideology full of contradiction upon this fascination. Then they go deep into the pits quotemining to find ways of justifying this position.

[Ismail]

Marx and Engels were not racists, it's as simple as that. Just as they also weren't anti-semites.

They used language which today would only be used by racists (e.g. "nigger") but at the time was common, and they never believed that one race was "superior" to the other.

The most offensive thing they said was when Engels claimed that certain cultures were basically affixed to feudalism, could not really surmount it, their national struggles were thus reactionary, and that they would die out in struggle with capitalism. That's not racist, just incorrect.

[Commissar Rykov]

Strasser.
But nazbols are just people with aesthetic appreciation of both Nazi Germany and the USSR and form a half-baked ideology full of contradiction upon this fascination. Then they go deep into the pits quotemining to find ways of justifying this position.
I find most people using the Nazbol term online are typically German Nationals trying to find a way around using the term National Socialist so it is also something to keep in mind. Most of the Nazbols on youtube are not even Russian typically Americans and Germans from the run ins I have had with them.

[Ismail]

Don't forget that Karl Marx praised Abraham Lincoln to the skies, openly backed the Union in the American Civil War, and heralded the abolition of slavery as the death-blow of the remnants of feudalism in the USA. Not to mention one of the very first American Communists (Joseph Weydemeyer) was a Prussian officer who served in the Union Army.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Marx and Engels were not racists, it's as simple as that. Just as they also weren't anti-semites.

They used language which today would only be used by racists (e.g. "nigger") but at the time was common, and they never believed that one race was "superior" to the other.

The most offensive thing they said was when Engels claimed that certain cultures were basically affixed to feudalism, could not really surmount it, their national struggles were thus reactionary, and that they would die out in struggle with capitalism. That's not racist, just incorrect.

Just because it was common doesn't mean it was right of them to slander with abusive words.

[Ismail]

Just because it was common doesn't mean it was right of them to slander with abusive words.Calling Lassalle a "Jewish nigger," to give one example, is obviously offensive, but I doubt it was "slander" considering Lassalle was overall a very bad personality who collaborated with Bismarck. It was just used as an insult. It also wasn't used to mean that Lassalle was an inferior human being.

[piet11111]

Nazbol is short for national bolshevik so you can see why the mostly eastern bloc nazi's chose that name compared to the original german national socialists.

When i first heard about them i thought they where a parody.

[Martin Blank]

So it is tru?
:confused:

Technically, the words are Marx and Engels. However, as rosario's link pointed out, they are out-of-context quotes. For example, the "quote" from Marx's The Jewish Question is ripped from its overall context, which provides the meaning to his comments on the "everyday Jew".

One thing to remember about this time period in which Marx was writing is that most Christians actually adhered to the axiom, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be". The old version of the Lord's Prayer included the line, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those who are indebted to us"; it would take the further advance of both capitalism and Protestantism before this was changed to, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us". "Money changing" -- banking, commerce, etc. -- was considered an almost exclusively Jewish activity, done on behalf of Christians, in medieval and even early capitalist Europe (primarily in Catholic-dominant areas).

The "practical need" and importance of "self-interest" for European Jews was understandable. "Huckstering" (commerce; trading) was a way to have to place in the economic and political life of Europe at that time. And, of course, all of that was tied to "money", which drove the burgeoning capitalist system.

A little further down in the text, Marx writes: "The Jew has emancipated himself in a Jewish manner, not only because he has acquired financial power, but also because, through him and also apart from him, money has become a world power and the practical Jewish spirit has become the practical spirit of the Christian nations. The Jews have emancipated themselves insofar as the Christians have become Jews."

In other words, because of the growth of capitalism, the old Christian concept of commerce and money-handling being against the teachings of Jesus became a relic. Christians began handling their own commercial and trading activity alongside Jews. Thus, insofar as commerce was seen as the embodiment of being Jewish hitherto, you saw with the rise of capitalism the end of this embodiment and relative exclusivity. "The Christians have become Jews".

(It should also be noted here that the entire intent of Marx's document was to argue for the full citizenship rights of Jews as Jews, as opposed to the view of his interlocutor, Bruno Bauer, who argued that Jews could only become citizens by abandoning their religion.)

As for Marx and Engels dropping N-bombs, two things are important to note: 1) 99 percent of their use of the term was in private correspondence, and 2) the term had yet to become the charged term it is today.

The Nazbols used two quotes to prove their point: one about Ferdinand Lassalle and one about Paul Lafargue. I could not find the Lafargue quote anywhere, so I question whether it's even real. However, I was able to find the Lassalle quote. Never let it be said that Marx didn't have a terrible temper.

If you read the whole letter, you can see that Marx was more than a little upset with Lassalle's visit: "Had I not been in this appalling position [being broke and in debt] and vexed by the way this parvenu flaunted his money bags, he’d have amused me tremendously. Since I last saw him a year ago, he’s gone quite mad. His head has been completely turned by his stay in Zurich (with Rüstow, Herwegh, etc.) and the subsequent trip to Italy and, after that, by his Herr Julian Schmidt, etc. He is now indisputably, not only the greatest scholar, the profoundest thinker, the most brilliant man of science, and so forth, but also and in addition, Don Juan cum revolutionary Cardinal Richelieu. Add to this, the incessant chatter in a high, falsetto voice, the unaesthetic, histrionic gestures, the dogmatic tone!"

Put in this context, Marx's use of the N-bomb becomes clearer: In a fit of anger, he let those base elements of social backwardness come through as he ranted to Engels. And vice versa. Engels often did the same in correspondence to Marx.

As for the rest of the crap the Nazbols have in that video, such as about the International, they're pulling it out of their own asses.

[Martin Blank]

Don't forget that Karl Marx praised Abraham Lincoln to the skies, openly backed the Union in the American Civil War, and heralded the abolition of slavery as the death-blow of the remnants of feudalism in the USA. Not to mention one of the very first American Communists (Joseph Weydemeyer) was a Prussian officer who served in the Union Army.

You say those things like you're accusing Marx of being unprincipled.

[pax et aequalitas]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/10/11/35cff553-c8cd-4ad1-9439-b4c5e0543f89.jpg

[Ismail]

You say those things like you're accusing Marx of being unprincipled.I'm not. It's one of the things about Marx I love mentioning to everyone and is a good example of demonstrating his materialist analysis of events. I've actually seen a few internet "Marxists" argue that the Confederacy deserved to be defended against "Northern imperialism."

[thälmann]

it hink there are two different things in this whole point:
1. it is right that marx uses racist words in private insult against lasalle. thats wrong, but he wasnt a racist.
2. regarding the whole colonialism thing somebody can only understand, when the dialectic is clear. marx and engels of course thought that colonialism, like every oppression and exploitation was bad. but on the other side it brought a certain development to less developed areas. and marx/engels had to learn from reality by themselves. they always mentioned that colonialism brought some kind of development, but later they gave more attention to the fact that on the other side colonialism itself was a barrier against real development and of course liberation.

"The Indians will not reap the fruits of the new elements of society scattered among them by the British bourgeoisie, till in Great Britain itself the now ruling classes have been supplanted by the industrial proletariat, or till the Hindus themselves shall have grown strong enough to throw off the English all together."

"At home, in the mother country, the smug deceitfulness of the political economist can turn this relation of absolute dependence [between the capitalist and the worker] into a free contract between buyer and seller…But in the colonies this beautiful illusion is torn aside."



http://www.goodreads.com/story/show/27339-marx-on-colonialism here you can find some quotes of them.

[Martin Blank]

I'm not. It's one of the things about Marx I love mentioning to everyone and is a good example of demonstrating his materialist analysis of events. I've actually seen a few internet "Marxists" argue that the Confederacy deserved to be defended against "Northern imperialism."

Yeah, I've seen that, too. It's absolutely disgusting. I mean, I might expect it from some Bakuninists (he supported the Confederacy during the Civil War), but not from self-described Marxists.

[Joseph S.]

One thing to remember about this time period in which Marx was writing is that most Christians actually adhered to the axiom, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be". The old version of the Lord's Prayer included the line, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those who are indebted to us"; it would take the further advance of both capitalism and Protestantism before this was changed to, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us". "Money changing" -- banking, commerce, etc. -- was considered an almost exclusively Jewish activity, done on behalf of Christians, in medieval and even early capitalist Europe (primarily in Catholic-dominant areas).


It is forgive us our sin ,as we forgive others they'r sins(tranclation out of the dutch prayer like i had to say quite alot while going to church with my familie.)
Not really shure wat you are trying to say with the rest of the stuf i quoted.,Jews run the financial world?

[Commissar Rykov]

It is forgive us our sin ,as we forgive others they'r sins(tranclation out of the dutch prayer like i had to say quite alot while going to church with my familie.)
Not really shure wat you are trying to say with the rest of the stuf i quoted.,Jews run the financial world?
Err no Miles is quite correct. It was against not only laws of the State but Religious Laws to lend money for the longest time in Europe.

[GatesofLenin]

I've heard that Engel's expressed some, controversial things about the Irish. But even if that's true calling them racists for that is stupid, neither of them believe any of the tenants of racism, ie. Racial character and race-soul, though if these are taken out of context it could seem that way. That naz-bol calling Marx an anti-semite really has made my day though, his grandad was a Rabbi

Karl Marx came from a jewish family, it's in all the textbooks.

[OHumanista]

I hate it when people accuse someone of anti-semitism because they criticize jewish religion. I for one criticize all religions(and pretty much everything else) but that doesn't mean I hold a grudge against them and want them dead.
It means I will not stand by it's abuses silently. And I believe that was Marx take on it as well.

[tir1944]

Yeah they were racists.That of course doesn't have anything to do with the validity of Marxism and Marx's thought.

[thefinalmarch]

he supported the Confederacy during the Civil War
On exactly what grounds?

[The Idler]

Even if Marx was racist, it doesn't invalidate the analysis of class society and capitalism that he is best known for.

[Экс-фашистских]

Do not pay any attention to those National Bolshevik idiots. I've dealt with them before and they know nothing of fascism or communism.

[Martin Blank]

On exactly what grounds?

The centralized power of the American state, IIRC. Bakunin didn't see the Civil War the same way Marx did -- that it would become a war for emancipation, whether the Lincoln administration wanted it to or not. He more or less made the same mistake a lot of people did and took the early proclamations of Lincoln as the entire reality. He did not see how the material conditions were compelling the White House to go farther than it originally intended: Butler's "contraband" order; the Fremont affair; Sumner's "Best Weapon" speech; the iconic-mythical status of John Brown; the rise of "internal expansionism"; and so on.