Did the Exodus Story really happen ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

My question is do you think the Children of Israel the Israelites the Hebrews were really enslaved by the Egyptians in Egypt for 400 years or is this Story just a myth ? You may not be aware of this but Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam believes that the Hebrews being Slaves in Egypt for 400 years is a myth. When the Bible says the Israelites would be Slaves in a foreign land or in a foreign nation it is talking about Black People being Slaves in the United States of America for 400 years does anyone have any opinion on this subject thanks ?

Archaeology
The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-autogenerated99-20) For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."[21] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-autogenerated99-20) A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus narrative of an Egyptian captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[18] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-HEwXDb5oC_2005_p.5-17) and it has become increasingly clear that Iron Age Israel - the kingdoms of Judah and Israel - has its origins in Canaan, not Egypt:[22] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-Finkelstein_1994-21)[23] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-22) the culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite. Almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[24] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-23)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

Black experience of slavery was Bible prophecy
The NOI teaches that Black people constitute a nation and that through the institution of the Atlantic slave trade (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade) they were systematically denied knowledge of their past history, language, culture, and religion and, in effect, lost control of their lives[citation needed (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. Central to this doctrine, NOI theology asserts that Black people’s experience of slavery was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and therefore, black people are the seed of Abraham (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Abraham) referred to in the Bible, in Genesis (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Book_of_Genesis) 15:13–14:
Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge and afterward shall they come out with great substance.And Acts (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Acts_of_the_Apostles) 7:6:
And God spoke on this wise, that his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs_and_theology_of_the_Nation_of_Islam

Religion -- Tool of Bosses, Enemy of Workers


The Hebrew God

The Hebrews originated as one of many nomadic peoples. Little is known for sure about their origins. The stories in the Old Testament are certainly not accurate history, like bourgeois theologians and misguided religious people think they are. The ancestors of the Jews may have come from Egypt at some time between 1600 - 1300 B.C.; the name of the legendary founder of Judaism, Moses, is Egyptian. Or the story of Egyptian slavery may be a much later reflection of a struggle between a Jewish temple in Egypt and another in Jerusalem, and have never happened at all!
The Old Testament myths relates that the Jewish upper classes, the landed aristocracy and royal house, were constantly oppressing and exploiting the peasants and city population. They naturally intermarried with aristocratic women from surrounding kingdoms, who brought their gods and goddesses with them. Even in the book of Genesis, stories like that of the "Sons of God" lying with the "daughters of men" show that Judaism was at first poly-theistic.
The Hebrews had until recently been a nomadic, hunting, gathering, and herding people. The stories about Abraham and his descendants in Genesis show that memories about the more-or-less egalitarian past were valued highly by the common people. They told of better times in the past, when there were tribal leaders but no kings or aristocrats, before the appearance of agriculture with the attendant exploitation of the peasantry.
The Hebrews lived "between the hammer and the anvil" -- right between the huge Egyptian empire and a series of other empires: Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Syrian. As a result the Hebrew kings suffered catastrophic defeats. It was easy for the "prophets," the religious spokespersons of the exploited classes, to lay the blame for the Jewish kings' defeats on their polytheism, and tie this to their oppression of the poor. They were "unfaithful to the true god."
In this way monotheism became, among the Jews, the watchword of the social critics who opposed exploitation. The Pentateuch, or first five books, were written up from older stories so as to date the origins of the Hebrews to a time when there were no kings, no private property in land, and no priesthood. This was a standing contradiction and reproach to the contemporary state of affairs, with exploitation and injustice abounding, and with a temple cult presided over by aristocratic priests who were essential for the major religious rituals.
After the death of Alexander the Great in 323 B.C. the Jewish upper classes adopted Greek language, culture, and many philosophical and religious ideas. Meanwhile, among the exploited classes of town and village, the center of Jewish religion moved away from the temple and priestly cult, presided over by these increasingly foreign-seeming aristocrats, and towards smaller, decentralized "synagogues" or meetings.
Christianity, therefore, drew on both traditions of monotheism -- that of the Greek world, where it was a mainstay of a horribly oppressive, slave empire; and that of the Jewish world, where it was the symbol of resistance to ruling-class decadence in a world where materialism had never really developed.

Why Communists Must Fight Religion

We communists fight for the working class. Workers cannot be free of exploitation and the miseries of capitalism until they have overthrown the ruling classes and run society by themselves. Communists have always studied the class struggles of the past, and this study shows that workers must organize under a party that fights for their interests and that will never sell out to the bosses -- a communist party. Violent revolution is necessary, since no ruling class yields power without a violent struggle.
Communists must oppose religion, because religion is always and everywhere a tool of the rulers to dominate and dupe the workers. Religion is essentially elitist and undemocratic. Communists are materialists. We must use science to unmask false ideas.
Throughout the ages, nothing has held back the struggle of the exploited for justice, nothing has caused as much passivity, as religion. We encourage all comrades and friends to criticize this article and write further articles exposing how religion keeps oppresses us all and serves the bosses

http://www.plp.org/leaflets-pamphlets/pamphlets/religion.html

[tradeunionsupporter]

What do you think ? I think the story is a myth.

[ComradeMan]

I don't where to begin with this as the OP covers a lot of different areas, so I'll focus on "Exodus".

The "book" of Exodus actually comprised these "portions". In the Tanakh they are divided as follows.


Shemot, "Names": (Exodus 1-5)
Va'eira, "I appeared": (Exodus 6-9)
Bo, "To (1)come or (2)go": (Exodus 10-13)
Beshalach, "When he let go": (Exodus 13-17)
Yitro, "Jethro- from Hebrew "His Excellency": (Exodus 18-20)
Mishpatim, "Law": (Exodus 21-24)
Terumah, "Gift/Offering": (Exodus 25-27)
Tetzaveh, "You command": (Exodus 27-30)
Ki Tisa, "When you take" : (Exodus 30-34)
Vayakhel, "and He assembled": (Exodus 35-38)
Pekudei, "Amounts of": (Exodus 38-40)

As far as I know there is no real consensus on the order of the portions in Exodus. Furthermore there is no archaeological evidence to support the Biblical narrative, or at least the traditional narrative with which most people are probably familiar.

On the other hand, I did read an interesting book that tackled this from the perspective of Egyptology and presented an argument that connected the origins of the Mosaic religion and the Exodus with Ancient Egypt and especially the 18th dynasty- which was also the period of the so-called heretic Pharaoh Akhenaten. The arguments were based on comparing Hebrew and Aramaic Targum versions of the narrative and then looking at Egyptian records of the period. Of course this involves looking at the symbolic meaning of hieroglyphics and comparing them to the symbolic meanings of Hebrew letters, especially anomalous uses as found in the Aramaic targum. The authors then go on to argue that these "Egyptian" origins were obscured by the scribed during the Babylonian exilic period-perhaps due to the animosity between the Babylonians and Egyptians. All of a sudden Abraham was from "Ur" and so on... Interestingly there is a hint of something going on with the scribes in Jeremiah 8, where they are accused of lying and changing things!

The arguments are long and complicated, too much to write here, and even though I have a degree of scepticism as I don't necessarily agree with everything in the book, I do think that the argument presented from a historical point of view is credible- or at least the authors may be on to something. A theme of monotheism, contrary to popular belief, is to be found in Ancient Egypt long before Akhenaten too and I think this is often ignored. The earliest "fathers" of Egyptology were not agreed on whether the Egyptians were polytheists, monotheists, henotheists or pantheists or any combination of those!

I personally believe the Exodus refers to historical events that have been "cloaked" and certainly do refer to something that happened, but just no in the way we think it happened.

The book I refer too:-
Messod & Roger Sabbah. Secrets of the Exodus: The Egyptian Origins of the Hebrew People, Helios Press (2004): ISBN-10: 1581153198
The idea however is not so new, Freud also held similar beliefs of Egyptian origins and the bibliography of the book above is extensive.

[Revolution starts with U]

I once watched a pretty whacky conspiracy video. It had a consistent, coherent timeline from old kingdom egypt to today tying the British Royal Family (and most of the Royalty and Nobility of Eurasia) to the old Egyptian Pharoh. But it was using a lot of things like "vikings were the VI Kings, the 6 kings of ... something in the bible lol. I mean, it was pretty whacky.. but consistent and coherent. So... whatever, but this was their theory:

The origins of Jewish culture lies in the Hyksos. When they came and conquered lower egypt they created an animosity.
The Hyksosian pharoh had names like "tutmose" (moses) and something that was close to solomon. When the Hyksos nobility, who by this time considered themselves full egyptian nobility, and were very intermingled with the northern nobility, were driven out of Egypt they went to Canaan taking the ark of the covenant with them.
The theory is that they never gave up control of Egypt in the first place. There is no evidence (I guess) of widescale warfare in the driving out of the Hyksos, they just simply left. What it was, was a political ploy.
So the Exodus and much of pre-babylonian exile biblical story represents a symbol of how the Jews, who have now taken control of Hebrew culture, or as we call them the Hyksos, are the true masters of the world and have been controlling Egytptian nobility the whole time... or are the egyptian noblity, or something like that. It's a conpiracy I tell ya. :lol:

Anyway this goes on to say that they founded Macedon (as MaceDANia; the kingdom of the tribes of Dan lol) making Alexander a jew. Jesus Christ was Cleopatra and Ceaser's son, who Octavian along with Cleopatra's chambermaid Mary and her husband Joseph escorted out into the desert so he could live on the lamb... get it? on the lamb :tt1:
Anyway, He comes back to establish a new kingdom, a more powerful kingdom than a political one. Jesus Ceaser comes to establish a spiritual kingdom. Then he goes to France and starts the Merovingian dynasty or something. Somehow this all gets to the British Royal Family, thru Charlemagne I think. Ya, so the Stone of Scone, the rock under the throne, is Jacob's rock or something.

Idk, standard anti-semitic "jews run the world" whackiness. I don't believe a word of it. But it's an interesting narrative nonetheless. :lol:

[hatzel]

Quick question, not strictly on topic...did anybody else notice that the totally unrelated pamphlet thing randomly copy-pasted into the OP is terribly written and totally incoherent? I mean, one minute it's all "[t]he Old Testament myths relates [sic] that the Jewish upper classes, the landed aristocracy and royal house, were constantly oppressing and exploiting the peasants and city population" and that "[t]he stories about Abraham and his descendants in Genesis show that memories about the more-or-less egalitarian past were valued highly by the common people," so therefore "monotheism became, among the Jews, the watchword of the social critics who opposed exploitation. The Pentateuch, or first five books, were written up from older stories so as to date the origins of the Hebrews to a time when there were no kings, no private property in land, and no priesthood. This was a standing contradiction and reproach to the contemporary state of affairs, with exploitation and injustice abounding, and with a temple cult presided over by aristocratic priests who were essential for the major religious rituals," before arguing that the religion was "the symbol of resistance to ruling-class decadence," but then suddenly says that "Communists must oppose religion, because religion is always and everywhere a tool of the rulers to dominate and dupe the workers. Religion is essentially elitist and undemocratic. [...] Throughout the ages, nothing has held back the struggle of the exploited for justice, nothing has caused as much passivity, as religion." I mean seriously? These are actually the same article? Lolzerooni...

[Blake's Baby]

I like the idea that a book written down in the Middle East around 500BC can be talking about the enslavement of black Africans by the white aristocracies and capitalists of North America 2000 years later...

Whatever Louis Farrakhan is smoking should be exploited for the good of mankind right now. It certainly gives one some pretty notions.

[scarletghoul]

I once watched a pretty whacky conspiracy video. It had a consistent, coherent timeline from old kingdom egypt to today tying the British Royal Family (and most of the Royalty and Nobility of Eurasia) to the old Egyptian Pharoh. But it was using a lot of things like "vikings were the VI Kings, the 6 kings of ... something in the bible lol. I mean, it was pretty whacky.. but consistent and coherent. So... whatever, but this was their theory:

The origins of Jewish culture lies in the Hyksos. When they came and conquered lower egypt they created an animosity.
The Hyksosian pharoh had names like "tutmose" (moses) and something that was close to solomon. When the Hyksos nobility, who by this time considered themselves full egyptian nobility, and were very intermingled with the northern nobility, were driven out of Egypt they went to Canaan taking the ark of the covenant with them.
The theory is that they never gave up control of Egypt in the first place. There is no evidence (I guess) of widescale warfare in the driving out of the Hyksos, they just simply left. What it was, was a political ploy.
So the Exodus and much of pre-babylonian exile biblical story represents a symbol of how the Jews, who have now taken control of Hebrew culture, or as we call them the Hyksos, are the true masters of the world and have been controlling Egytptian nobility the whole time... or are the egyptian noblity, or something like that. It's a conpiracy I tell ya. :lol:

Anyway this goes on to say that they founded Macedon (as MaceDANia; the kingdom of the tribes of Dan lol) making Alexander a jew. Jesus Christ was Cleopatra and Ceaser's son, who Octavian along with Cleopatra's chambermaid Mary and her husband Joseph escorted out into the desert so he could live on the lamb... get it? on the lamb :tt1:
Anyway, He comes back to establish a new kingdom, a more powerful kingdom than a political one. Jesus Ceaser comes to establish a spiritual kingdom. Then he goes to France and starts the Merovingian dynasty or something. Somehow this all gets to the British Royal Family, thru Charlemagne I think. Ya, so the Stone of Scone, the rock under the throne, is Jacob's rock or something.

Idk, standard anti-semitic "jews run the world" whackiness. I don't believe a word of it. But it's an interesting narrative nonetheless. :lol:
:laugh::laugh: this is hilarious, but yeah also very interesting.
when i get theoretically competant enough i am totally gonna do a psychoanalytic reading of these things. amazing how it takes a crazy fantasy about jews running the world, then sort of decorates it by playing around with signifiers and puns

[eyeheartlenin]

Quoting Blake's Baby: "I like the idea that a book written down in the Middle East around 500BC can be talking about the enslavement of black Africans by the white aristocracies and capitalists of North America 2000 years later...

"Whatever Louis Farrakhan is smoking should be exploited for the good of mankind right now. It certainly gives one some pretty notions."

* * *

What Blake's Baby writes reminds me of something I heard in a class once: one of the things that happens in preaching in African-American churches is that the listeners come to see themselves as actors in the Exodus narrative of enslavement, divine help, and then, liberation. And finding oneself, one's own experiences or background, in the biblical text must be, I think, tremendously energizing; it must be like personally owning a part of the stories in the Bible, as a participant.

Something like that happens in Judaism, where believers are exhorted to regard themselves as personally having participated in the escape from Egypt.

And the last line by Blake's Baby, the sentiment that whatever Minister Farrakhan is smoking should be exploited for the common good, is very funny.

Because Marxism is understood to entail atheism, it is not likely that the Exodus story will ever be applied to the experience of workers in general, by lefitsts. However, I remember when I read Lenin, that, at least in the selections I saw, Lenin constantly referred to workers under capitalism as "wage slaves." I would be interested to find out, from anyone who knows, if that phrase is original with Lenin, or if it comes from Marx or someone else. Thanks in advance for any info.

[ComradeMan]

I once watched a pretty whacky conspiracy video. It had a consistent, coherent timeline from old kingdom egypt to today tying the British Royal Family (and most of the Royalty and Nobility of Eurasia) to the old Egyptian Pharoh...

I believe that British Israelitism is still going. Tied in to that, although not the same, is the obsession with finding descents from antiquity. It is possible that some of the ruling classes of Medieval Europe and the Middle-East were descended from the ruling classes of previous epochs and all kinds of attempts have been made to trace them back to the "historical" figures of antiquity. This is nothing new, Julius Caesar was descended from the Trojan kings and Venus, the Germanic kings were descended from Wotan/Odin, the British Celts were descended from mythic kings and also from Trojans and then the later rulers were descended from the Romans and earlier peoples through the Byzantines. The Bagrationi Royal House of Georgia claimed a descent from King David, the Kings of Ethiopia from the House of David and Solomon- hence "Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah" and, perhaps more plausible, many Islamic leaders claimed descent from Mohammed (pbuh) too. Of course there was a lot involved with this, folklore, sincere tradition and of course politics. In the Judaeo-Christian world a descent from King David, Arthur or Caesar was a big bonus. Although it's biologically possible, and even a fact that indeed we ALL have descent from antiquity- otherwise we wouldn't be here!!!- what we can demonstrate with the historical record is another matter. ;)


The origins of Jewish culture lies in the Hyksos. When they came and conquered lower egypt they created an animosity. The Hyksosian pharoh had names like "tutmose" (moses) and something that was close to solomon. When the Hyksos nobility, who by this time considered themselves full egyptian nobility, and were very intermingled with the northern nobility, were driven out of Egypt they went to Canaan taking the ark of the covenant with them.

I have to disagree with this theory for a number of reasons. The exact identity of the "heka khase(we)t(u)" (not shepherd kings as was formerly believed and derived from Arabic) "the foreign rulers" has never been defined satisfactorily.

Thuthmose "Djehoutymès= "Thoth is born" was not a Hyksos name but an Egyptian one. Thuthmose I was of the 18th dynasty after the earlier 17th dynasty king Seqenenre Tao III had put an end to the Hyksos domination and Ahmose I at the beginning of the 18th dynasty expelled them from Egypt. The trouble is that the name "hyksos" was used to refer to "Asiatics"- i.e. Middle-Eastern people onward throughout Egyptian history- so who is being referred too.

The other thing is that a lot of monotheistic Judaism has a lot more in common with Egyptian religion and culture than Western Semitic once you strip away later interpolations. Circumcision (found in Egypt), a lot of "ethics", sacred writing, an idea of a sacred land and "chosen people", snakes with legs who hang round trees of wisdom, and so on. Of course some of these themes are found elsewhere too but....

The idea that the "Hebrew" Pharaohs dominated the Middle-East and Egypt etc is not supported by the archaeological record. The Merneptah Stele (c1214-1203 BCE) records (majority consensus translation)

"Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

This records the military victories of Pharaoh Meneptah over "Canaanite kingdoms", and perhaps is the earliest mention in the archaeological record of "Israel".

As for all the "bloodlines" stuff..... LOL!!! Most of it was based on a hoax by a French guy in the 1950s....:rolleyes:

[Devrim]

I personally believe the Exodus refers to historical events that have been "cloaked" and certainly do refer to something that happened, but just no in the way we think it happened.

Do you mean to say that it didn't happen like it says in the book.

How anybody could believe that it did is beyond me. It is quite obvious that about 2,000,000 people didn't wander around the Siani for forty years, just as it is quite obvious that you can't fit two of every species of animal on a small boat.

It is obviously a myth.

Devrim

[OHumanista]

There is ZERO historical evidence for the whole exodus thing. Unless you count the Bible as historical evidence(but then I can't take you seriously). Really, everything so far points out that it never ever happened.

[The Jay]

The part where water came out of a rock and bread fell from the sky was true too, and all was magic, bunnies, and rainbows until vegeta ate the big green worm in slackjaw space.

[Zostrianos]

There is some evidence that some of the Exodus events may have been based on actual facts. An interesting parallel to the story of the Israelites' escape from Egypt is found in a report in Papyrus Anastasi V (around 1200 bc, the estimated date for the Exodus accounts), wherein an Egyptian official relates that he had to pursue some slaves near the Sinai border, and they escaped southward:
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/runaway_slaves.htm

Another matter, to wit: I was sent forth from the broad-halls of the palace - life, prosperity, health! - in the 3rd month of the third season, day 9, at the time of evening, following after these two slaves. Now when I reached the enclosure-wall of Tjeku on the 3rd month of the third season, day 10, they told [me] they were saying to the south that they had passed by on the 3rd month of the third season, day 10. [Now] when reached the fortress, they told me that the scout had come from the desert [saying that] they had passed the walled place north of the Migdol of Seti Mer-ne-Ptah - life, prosperity, health ! - Beloved like Seth.
When my letter reaches you, write to me about all that has happened to [them]. Who found their tracks ? Which watch found their tracks ? What people are after them ? Write to me about all that has happened to them and how many people you send out after them. [May your health] be good!

And the aforementioned Merneptah Stele is also worth a second look.

[ComradeMan]

Do you mean to say that it didn't happen like it says in the book.

Yes and no--- it depends how you read the book(s).

Just one example, the word that is used for the "Hebrews" in Egypt, who in the Targums are not the "multitude" of Hebrews (erev rav) but Yahudim, is "slave" and this has conjured up images of the Children of Israel building pyramids and obelisks in countless paintings and films- however this word can also be translated as "devotee of a cult", "cult follower" and such like and that alone puts a different angle on things.

Even the name of Abraham lacks a solid and reliable translation from/in Hebrew (the -raham part) and the Egyptian origin of the name "Moses" has been discussed widely. In that book I cited before they suggest (pp227-228 (Italian edition)) that Abraham corresponds to A (alef) Adonai B (beth) in/house Ra (sun, the highest) H (he) (the great god) Am (Am(on) i.e. of heaven and earth, i.e. nations, and render a translation more or less "Adonai (Aton?) "the father who resides in Ra the great and high god whose breath created heaven and earth". If we compare this to Ra-Horakhty, one of the titles of Akhenaton, "blessed the perfect god who loves truth, possessor of heaven and earth, the great living light who illuminates the two banks [of the Nile]". To put this in context, Ra-Horakhty was a combination of Horus-Ra and as a combination of the sky and sun was the "god" of the Horizon. It was this god who was supposed to have manifested itself to Akhenaton's grandfather Thuthmose IV. The Egyptian gods and Pharaohs who were considered manifestations of the gods seem to have a confusing multitude of names, which are really epithets or titles, and it's interesting that the first portion of Exodus, in Hebrew, "Shemot" means "names".

Now it's an interesting theory and I am not saying I agree with it 100% but there is food for thought here and we now how dangerous it can be to rely on ancient translations too.

There are also other problems, caused by camels- in Genesis 24:10-11 we have a description of Abraham getting ten camels... I don't think camels were domesticated until much later nor do they appear in Egypt until the 2nd century BCE (in Mesopotamia c1200 BCE) !!! I don't know of any Egyptian representations of camels either. Now is it possible that the exilic scribes in Babylon were transposing a definitively Mesopotamian narrative onto an originally Egyptian one?


There is some evidence that some of the Exodus events may have been based on actual facts...

Under the 18th dynasty I have read that a great number of "foreigners", "asiatics" (i.e. Middle-Eastern people) and inevitably slaves poured into Egypt. I also believe that the "heretic" Pharaoh's city of Akhetaten was very cosmopolitan too with a great multitude of languages and peoples.

Now, the Ancient Egyptians were not a particularly p.c. bunch of people. In fact they were quite xenophobic and racist. This would have been considered an abomination to the Egyptian traditionalists who would have viewed these peoples probably with the same contempt that the Romans and Greeks later viewed the "barbarians" (linguistic link here too!).


Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.

Now if the Children of Israel are the mixture of the Yahudim, and erev-rav- again the Judah ( & Levi) + "Israel" (i.e. the rest) divide- here could be the foundations of the story. I have also read that according to Judaic scholars the Levites were never slaves in Egypt and perhaps the Yahudim were not either- just the poor old erev-rav- the multitude.

[Devrim]

There is some evidence that some of the Exodus events may have been based on actual facts. An interesting parallel to the story of the Israelites' escape from Egypt is found in a report in Papyrus Anastasi V (around 1200 bc, the estimated date for the Exodus accounts), wherein an Egyptian official relates that he had to pursue some slaves near the Sinai border, and they escaped southward:

Firstly there is no agreed time for the Exodus story. Secondly your account talks of two slaves whereas the account in Exodus implies there were about two million. It is a bit like saying that a fisherman taking his dog in his boat is the root for the Noah story.

Devrim

[ComradeMan]

Firstly there is no agreed time for the Exodus story. Secondly your account talks of two slaves whereas the account in Exodus implies there were about two million. It is a bit like saying that a fisherman taking his dog in his boat is the root for the Noah story.

Devrim

No, but we have a plausible "timeframe" of 300 years from the expulsion of the Hyksos under Ahmose c1549-1524 BCE at the beginning of the 18th dynasty to the Merneptah Stele c1213-1203 BCE of the 19th dynasty.

Exodus 9:1 . Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship [or serve] me."

In Hebrew the word is evèd, "slave", "servant" or "devotee (servant) of a cult", the word "avodà" means either "work" or "cult". Rashi comments on the people being "servants" of the Pharaoh, ergo not necessarily the slaves we have come to think of.

[Devrim]

Yes and no--- it depends how you read the book(s).

I read it as a story about the Jews leaving Egypt.

To be honest I have totally lost any comprehension of what the connection between what you are talking about and the topic is.

Devrim

[Astarte]

I am inclined to agree that it is history that has been "veiled" and altered - the whole notion that a kernel of the truth is found in a myth or legend.

Another thing, I think Exodus is a national liberation story, its been co-opted by leftists before, and I am sure will be again.

Also, another strange piece of the puzzle could be the "Mandaeans" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaean#Fundamental_tenets

I took a book out about them a few years ago, they also claim they were enslaved in Egypt - they say they were Jews at one time, but split from the main currents of Judaism. They revere Adam, Abel, Seth, Enos, Noah and John the Baptist, while rejecting some heavy hitters of Abrahamism like Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad.

They're a Gnostic sect, and are from Southern Iraq, I believe the marshlands. They also have a holiday where they mourn for the 365 Egyptian soldiers who were killed when the Red Sea swallowed them up upon pursuit of Moses and the Hebrews.

[ComradeMan]

I read it as a story about the Jews leaving Egypt.

To be honest I have totally lost any comprehension of what the connection between what you are talking about and the topic is.

Devrim

You can't read Hebrew scriptures on just one level- there are four, the pardes. Now, something that does irritate me, personally, about ALL organised religion- especially the old ones- is this business of obfuscating and veiled meanings etc- as Astarte points out- but I can't change that. The fact is that Biblical literalism is a road to nowhere, at least in my opinion, and perhaps, just perhaps there is a virtue in encouraging the sincere "seeker" to dig deeper "derash" .... afterall, the truth will set you free. Another thing to remember too is that we are dealing with very long periods of time in an age before widespread literacy and printing- Dante is difficult for modern Italians, Latin is very, very difficult.... do you follow me...?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Thank you for your posts.