Am I the only one who thinks piercing a baby's ears is horrible?

[Veovis]

Someone on my facebook feed with whom I went to high school was showing off pictures of her infant daughter's recently pierced ears. My mouth literally fell open. All the people who commented on the photos were gushing about how cute the baby looked - it didn't occur to anyone to raise an objection about practicing body modification on a helpless little girl.

To quote the indomitable Prof. Farnsworth: "I don't want to live on this planet anymore." :thumbdown:

[Engel]

My main objection to it is that the baby doesn't have any say in it. It kinda falls in the same category as castration for me: your body wasn't born that way so don't try to change it! Seriously, if she wants a piercing she'll get it when she's older. I have no idea what to think of the parents. Just no idea.

http://oi52.tinypic.com/oubcw6.jpg

[Tablo]

I agree that it isn't good. They should decide when they are older. Really isn't a big deal compared to circumcision though.

[Kitty_Paine]

I feel like it's in the same field as people who use their babies as accessories. The people who dress their kids in name brand clothing and parade them around to show off to everyone.

"Like oh my god! Look how cute my baby it in this Gucci top!" They dress their kids up like dolls to show off. Piercing feels like the same thing. What benefit does this give the child? None. It's so you can show off how cute your new baby is to everyone...

Get a barbie, you don't need a kid...

And on top of that... who thinks it's a good idea to keep sharp metal things in a baby's ear?... No, I have no idea how that could end up badly...

[Lobotomy]

It kinda falls in the same category as castration for me: your body wasn't born that way so don't try to change it! Seriously, if she wants a piercing she'll get it when she's older.

You mean circumcision, right? Anyway, I don't really think it's in the same ballpark. Circumcision is completely irreversible, whereas ear lobe piercings can heal easily with hardly any scarring. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's relatively minor.

[Le Socialiste]

No, you're not the only one who thinks piercing a baby's ears is horrible. For one thing, the baby has no say in the matter (this has already been touched on, however). Another point is that you won't see many parents piercing a baby's ears if said baby is male. The idea that a female baby should have its ears pierced is a barbaric form of gender reinforcement, or the perception of what constitutes femininity. The baby girl is too young to understand why she's being put through this procedure, one that - at such a young age - is mostly meant to distinguish between the two recognized sexes.

[Smyg]

Mutilate yourself, not your children.

[Le Rouge]

It's terrible and ugly

[blackandyellow]

You're making a bigger deal out of this than it really is. Ear peircings can heal and are pretty unnoticable. To compare it to castration (!!!!) is so rediculous I don't even know what to say.

[Tim Cornelis]

No, you're not the only one who thinks piercing a baby's ears is horrible. For one thing, the baby has no say in the matter (this has already been touched on, however). Another point is that you won't see many parents piercing a baby's ears if said baby is male. The idea that a female baby should have its ears pierced is a barbaric form of gender reinforcement, or the perception of what constitutes femininity. The baby girl is too young to understand why she's being put through this procedure, one that - at such a young age - is mostly meant to distinguish between the two recognized sexes.

I see quite some baby boy with pierced ears though, usually with "cool" nike shoes, shaved heads. They are made identical to the father.

[Quail]

I would give my permission for my son to get his ear/s pierced... if he asked. As it happens, he can say about 6-8 words at the moment and can't string a sentence together.

[Blake's Baby]

...you won't see many parents piercing a baby's ears if said baby is male. The idea that a female baby should have its ears pierced is a barbaric form of gender reinforcement, or the perception of what constitutes femininity. The baby girl is too young to understand why she's being put through this procedure, one that - at such a young age - is mostly meant to distinguish between the two recognized sexes.

I think this might be more true in some places than in others. I've seen a few very young boys with pierced ears (or more usually one pierced ear). More than I've ever seen wearing pink, I would suspect. Maybe even more than I've seen wearing pink, purple or yellow put together (not on the same child, that would just be cruel).

And no, OP, you're not the only one who thinks it's horrible.

[Le Socialiste]

I think this might be more true in some places than in others. I've seen a few very young boys with pierced ears (or more usually one pierced ear). More than I've ever seen wearing pink, I would suspect. Maybe even more than I've seen wearing pink, purple or yellow put together (not on the same child, that would just be cruel).

And no, OP, you're not the only one who thinks it's horrible.

Granted, what I said doesn't hold true in the universal sense. It varies according to one's social and cultural upbringing. My point was that most Americans, upon seeing a baby with pierced ears, might immediately jump to the conclusion that said baby is female. The same holds true for parents who clothe their babies in pink or blue depending on the sex (another bullshit tendency, but I'll let it go for now).

[#FF0000]

Well wait does it even hurt?

[Vanguard1917]

Number of women whose earlobes were pierced as infants: Probably hundreds of millions.

Number of women who had a problem with it when they got older: Virtually zero.

Since it was raised above, the same pretty much goes for male circumcision, btw.

When you start creating an issue out of something with which there clearly isn't an issue for those involved, that can often be a sign that you should stop being a judgemental so and so. :)

[leftace53]

Of all my piercings, my ear ones hurt the most - lobes coming in after cartilage things obviously. At the time, I really wished my parents had just gotten my lobes pierced when I was a child because healing wasn't fun.
However, I'm gonna guess that as a child, if the earring gets infected, they wouldn't necessarily be able to tell their parents about it (other than crying and such), and they may even aggravate it. As other posters also mentioned, the child doesn't get a say in it, so while I would have liked my ears pierced earlier so that I wouldn't have to waste nice teenage time for them to heal, others may not want that.
I wouldn't say its quite like circumcision, but I get the point - lack of choice in a body mod.

No, OP, you are not alone.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Well wait does it even hurt?
Didn't hurt me when I got my ears pierced. There was a quick sting, but that's it.

Same with getting my eyebrow pierced.

But I'm still against piercing a baby's ears. That's horrible. Like someone else said, the only ethical thing is to wait until they're old enough to ask permission ...

[Zav]

Most people alive today would be horrified by this temporary aesthetic modification, but are perfectly content with circumcision and assigning a sex to intersex children at birth. None of these are ethical, though piercings are the most acceptable of them to me. It is never fine to inflict unnecessary pain without consent. Absolutely never.

[Zav]

Number of women whose earlobes were pierced as infants: Probably hundreds of millions.

Number of women who had a problem with it when they got older: Virtually zero.

Since it was raised above, the same pretty much goes for male circumcision, btw.

When you start creating an issue out of something with which there clearly isn't an issue for those involved, that can often be a sign that you should stop being a judgemental so and so. :)
I'll just cut your newborn kid's little finger off. He won't miss it, therefore it's fine. Then we'll do the same to every child for the next one hundred and fifty years, and then it won't be an issue anymore.

Honestly? We're supposed to be creating a revolution against wrongs people have accepted as the norm, you know.

[coda]

Ear piercing the young girls is pretty universal nowadays. Boys are sure to soon follow. I would think the main issue against piercing a baby would be the risk of infection and their lessened ability to fight if off if it occurred. Does not seem worth it for such a superficial purpose.

[Veovis]

Number of women whose earlobes were pierced as infants: Probably hundreds of millions.

Number of women who had a problem with it when they got older: Virtually zero.

Since it was raised above, the same pretty much goes for male circumcision, btw.

No, it doesn't. I'm living proof of that, and there are many others.

But that's not the topic of this thread.

[Vanguard1917]

I'll just cut your newborn kid's little finger off.

Giving your child a pair of ear rings is not similar to cutting off one of her fingers.



Honestly? We're supposed to be creating a revolution against wrongs people have accepted as the norm, you know.


Except for the fact this (http://www.babyzone.com/upload/cms/slideshow/200800100140021004600484839.jpg) is not a 'wrong' in any shape or form.

[Decolonize The Left]

Number of women whose earlobes were pierced as infants: Probably hundreds of millions.

Probably true.


Number of women who had a problem with it when they got older: Virtually zero.

Says.... you. Wow, you must really know a lot of women.


Since it was raised above, the same pretty much goes for male circumcision, btw.

Totally dude. You totally have your finger on the pulse of every single male who was circumcised and know how they feel about that. So you know all the women who had their ears pierced and all the men who were circumcised - you must get around.


When you start creating an issue out of something with which there clearly isn't an issue for those involved, that can often be a sign that you should stop being a judgemental so and so. :)

No, actually it's a sign that someone is concerned about the welfare of an infant who can't speak/think for itself.

If someone beat their infant you'd say someone should step in and take their kid away. But the line between beating/serious abuse and something like piercing a kid's ears is very thin as they both fundamentally involve the physical mutilation of a small human being for cultural customs and personal satisfaction. Yes one is obviously worse than another - that's not the point. The point is that you shouldn't fuck with your baby just because you want to.

- August

[Hit The North]

Number of women whose earlobes were pierced as infants: Probably hundreds of millions.

Number of women who had a problem with it when they got older: Virtually zero.

Since it was raised above, the same pretty much goes for male circumcision, btw.

When you start creating an issue out of something with which there clearly isn't an issue for those involved, that can often be a sign that you should stop being a judgemental so and so. :)

So I guess your "judgement" is drawn from empirical data in this area?

Citations please!

[Yugo45]

I can understand circumcision somewhat.. Tradition, religion, and all of that..

But piercing a baby is really, really stupid.. I mean, why would you even do it? Why do babies even need earrings?

[manic expression]

No, actually it's a sign that someone is concerned about the welfare of an infant who can't speak/think for itself.
We can't ask babies if they'd like their diapers changed. We can't inquire if they'd prefer certain immunizations. We can't discuss their preference to eat one brand of formula over another. We can't ascertain their opinion on being breast-fed in public versus at home.

I can't think of many things that an infant can do aside from eat, sleep, drool, cry and relieve themselves. Parents (and, of course society at large) have to decide just about everything for their infant children one way or another.


If someone beat their infant you'd say someone should step in and take their kid away. But the line between beating/serious abuse and something like piercing a kid's ears is very thin as they both fundamentally involve the physical mutilation of a small human being for cultural customs and personal satisfaction. Yes one is obviously worse than another - that's not the point. The point is that you shouldn't fuck with your baby just because you want to.
There's a world of difference between the two. You might as well compare singing lullabies to blasting death metal into a child's ear at full volume.

[Vanguard1917]

Says.... you. Wow, you must really know a lot of women.


If you want to ban parents from giving their children ear rings, and if you claim that ear piercings are somehow traumatic for children, the burden of proof is on you: evidence needs to be provided for this suggestion. This is because, as common experience and sense reveal, the ordinary piercing of a child's ear has no consequence whatsoever on their future development.



No, actually it's a sign that someone is concerned about the welfare of an infant who can't speak/think for itself.


But it does not affect the 'welfare' of the child.



If someone beat their infant you'd say someone should step in and take their kid away. But the line between beating/serious abuse and something like piercing a kid's ears is very thin as they both fundamentally involve the physical mutilation of a small human being for cultural customs and personal satisfaction.


Come on now. This is some kind of parody, surely.

[Vanguard1917]

We can't ask babies if they'd like their diapers changed. We can't inquire if they'd prefer certain immunizations. We can't discuss their preference to eat one brand of formula over another. We can't ascertain their opinion on being breast-fed in public versus at home.

I can't think of many things that an infant can do aside from eat, sleep, drool, cry and relieve themselves. Parents (and, of course society at large) have to decide just about everything for their infant children one way or another.

Well pointed out. When some mainstream moralists and 'parenting experts' compare to child abuse the act of giving your kid ice cream or potato chips, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the vast majority of human beings aren't actually fit to raise children at all. Perhaps all kids should be taken into state hands to free them from the vulgar masses.

[bcbm]

if i had a baby i'd give it a septum ring

[Decolonize The Left]

We can't ask babies if they'd like their diapers changed. We can't inquire if they'd prefer certain immunizations. We can't discuss their preference to eat one brand of formula over another. We can't ascertain their opinion on being breast-fed in public versus at home.

I can't think of many things that an infant can do aside from eat, sleep, drool, cry and relieve themselves. Parents (and, of course society at large) have to decide just about everything for their infant children one way or another.

Very true. But diapers, formulas, immunizations, etc... don't involve physical mutilation. It's just that simple.


There's a world of difference between the two. You might as well compare singing lullabies to blasting death metal into a child's ear at full volume.

Again, the analogy isn't apt. Metal at full volume is dangerous and can damage the ear drum. A lullaby is harmless. Again, the argument against piercing your baby's ears has to do with physical mutilation for cultural custom and personal satisfaction.

You don't change your baby's diapers because you think it's just adorable.
You don't feed your baby a formula because it's considered what to do for girls.
Do you?

- August

[bcbm]

Very true. But diapers, formulas, immunizations, etc... don't involve physical mutilation. It's just that simple.

an immunization is basically the same thing as an ear piercing but you let the hole heal

[Decolonize The Left]

If you want to ban parents from giving their children ear rings, and if you claim that ear piercings are somehow traumatic for children, the burden of proof is on you: evidence needs to be provided for this suggestion. This is because, as common experience and sense reveal, the ordinary piercing of a child's ear has no consequence whatsoever on their future development.

I don't want to ban ear piercings, or circumcision, or anything. I'm saying that you're defending an unnecessary and possibly harmful practice which is silly and pointless.

The point is to stop fucking with infants and children. Leave them alone and let them be.

- August

[Decolonize The Left]

an immunization is basically the same thing as an ear piercing but you let the hole heal

I don't think so. You don't stick a piece of metal into the immunization hole and change it periodically throughout the day/week.

Also, immunizations have a purpose - namely, the health of the herd. Piercings serve absolutely no purpose other than aesthetic appeal, something which an infant does not comprehend.

- August

[Vanguard1917]

I don't want to ban ear piercings, or circumcision, or anything. I'm saying that you're defending an unnecessary and possibly harmful practice which is silly and pointless.

I'm defending it because it causes no harm, at least not in the vast, vast majority of cases. And also because - call me old-fashioned - i frankly find it downright rude to lecture parents about the trivial aspects of how they raise their children.

[Nicolai]

I'm defending it because it causes no harm, at least not in the vast, vast majority of cases. And also because - call me old-fashioned - i frankly find it downright rude to lecture parents about the trivial aspects of how they raise their children.

That might be your opinion, but it's th same thing with religion or political views; let the damn kid choose for him/herself. A parent's job isn't to dictate every aspect of the child's life, contrary the job is to look after ones child and make them grow up to functioning members of society. Creating permanent scars, either it's circumcision or piercing has nothing to do with this. And wherever it's traumatizing or not; It's still their choice in the end, and one should have patience and respect that.

[BE_]

I think the kid should choose for its self when it is old enough to make a decision like that.

[Vanguard1917]

And wherever it's traumatizing or not; It's still their choice in the end, and one should have patience and respect that.

In reality it's not their choice; it's the parents' choice. When i was about 9 or 10 and wanted a little gold stud in my left ear because it was all the rage in my class, my mum said 'no, earrings are for girls', and that was that. If her opinion on the subject had been different, the outcome of my appeal would have been different, as it was for some of the other boys in my school. At the end of the day, we should accept that everyday decisions like those are for parents to make, and it's their decisions as parents which we (other grown adults) should really be respecting.

[manic expression]

I don't think so. You don't stick a piece of metal into the immunization hole and change it periodically throughout the day/week.
And yet that's far less serious a matter than injecting dead cells of this or that virus into the bloodstream of a child. IMO, it's not even as serious as the food an infant is fed.


Also, immunizations have a purpose - namely, the health of the herd. Piercings serve absolutely no purpose other than aesthetic appeal, something which an infant does not comprehend.Aesthetics is in itself a purpose...though I do get what you're saying. Still, an infant can't comprehend much, and shouldn't need to. Infants usually don't comprehend clothes and yet there's no problem if an infant is dressed in such things.

[Nicolai]

In reality it's not their choice; it's the parents' choice. When i was about 9 or 10 and wanted a little gold stud in my left ear because it was all the rage in my class, my mum said 'no, earrings are for girls', and that was that. If her opinion on the subject had been different, the outcome of my appeal would have been different, as it was for some of the other boys in my school. At the end of the day, we should accept that everyday decisions like those are for parents to make, and it's their decisions as parents which we (other grown adults) should really be respecting.

Choice comes when you have matured enough to make some of your decision yourself. And when one reaches that depends from person to person. I'm not saying the parent shouldn't be able to be a guardian over their child. But that doesn't need to go over the expression of the child. If you wanted an earing that badly, and you at that age felt mature enough to take a stand like that, Id allow you, no matter what "appeal" you'd get in the public. Let take stand on sexuality; if you'd for example told your mom you liked boys (at that age, or in the next four years for instance), it would not only be unfair, but disrespectful of you as a person to hinder your child from developing their stand, just because it wouldn't "appeal" as much as heterosexuality. We live in a society, where at least the ideal of "individualism" is supposed to be held high; letting the child to choose their form of expression, mature or not should be allowed.

That how my mom viewed it, and I was allowed to have my own thoughts on faith, politics, clothing, taste and so on; I haven't become less appealing to the society just because of that.

[Veovis]

If piercing a baby's ears is OK, then what about gauging them (stretching the holes) or piercing the septum or lip? How 'bout a Prince Albert for the boys? After all, the holes will just "grow shut."

Perfectly reasonable, right?

[EvilRedGuy]

I can understand circumcision somewhat.. Tradition, religion, and all of that..

But piercing a baby is really, really stupid.. I mean, why would you even do it? Why do babies even need earrings?

You understand it because of "tradition, religion, and all that..."

Thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard. Editing with a child (or any human being for that matter)is never acceptable, no matter what any religion says...

[piet11111]

Circumcision on kids should be banned.

[Vanguard1917]

Circumcision on kids should be banned.

If i were to come back to earth as a child while your ban was in full swing (so to speak), i'd very much hope for a couple of law breakers for parents. Loose skin at the end of your willy which gathers dirt and which you have to pull up and wash underneath every morning... Can i pass on that one, please?

Seriously though, there is no best option as far as male circumcision is concerned (both options have their pros and cons), just as there is no one best way to raise a child in general. All parents and guardians have their own preferences and ideas, and they should be free to practice them - within reason, of course.

[blackandyellow]

Circumcision on kids should be banned.

Why would anyone want an ant eater?

[Veovis]

If i were to come back to earth as a child while your ban was in full swing (so to speak), i'd very much hope for a couple of law breakers for parents. Hardened plates of keratin on the tips of your fingers which gather dirt and which you have to scrub underneath and trim every once and a while... Can i pass on that one, please?

Seriously though, there is no best option as far as ripping off a child's fingernails is concerned (both options have their pros and cons), just as there is no one best way to raise a child in general. All parents and guardians have their own preferences and ideas, and they should be free to practice them - within reason, of course.

I fixed it for you. Do you now see how stupid that argument is?

[Veovis]

Why would anyone want an ant eater?

Because it looks better than the dried out, scarred version.

[Vanguard1917]

I fixed it for you. Do you now see how stupid that argument is?

I wonder what explains the love of stupid comparisons on revleft.

[Princess Luna]

If piercing a baby's ears is OK, then what about gauging them (stretching the holes) or piercing the septum or lip? How 'bout a Prince Albert for the boys? After all, the holes will just "grow shut."

Perfectly reasonable, right?
there is HUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGEEE difference between a prince albert and a ear piercing, one involves poking a very tiny hole in the ear lobe, which is almost compelety painless, compare that with this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Albert_%28genital_piercing%29
see the difference? oh and for the record i oppose piecing infants ears, but lets not make rediclulous comparisions..........

[blackandyellow]

Because it looks better than the dried out, scarred version.

By dried out I assume you mean lack of knob cheese.

[Veovis]

I wonder what explains the love of stupid comparisons on revleft.

Ripping off someone's fingernails would undoubtedly save them a few steps in his personal hygiene routine. Why don't you advocate doing it to babies?

[Obs]

By dried out I assume you mean lack of knob cheese.
Dude it's basic fucking hygeine. You wash your goddamn dick when you're in the shower. How hard can it be?

[Le Socialiste]

Oh c'mon people! It's just basic hygiene. You do know circumcision originated as a religious/cultural practice, right? And as such, there is little to no reason for continuing the practice today? Just clean it! There's little difference between a circumcised penis and an uncircumcised one.

[EvilRedGuy]

Circumcision on kids should be banned.


I completely agree!

If someone dared or even thought of circumcise me i would blow the fuck out of their face with a shotgun. :sleep:

It's fucking perverting.

[Sensible Socialist]

In reality it's not their choice; it's the parents' choice. When i was about 9 or 10 and wanted a little gold stud in my left ear because it was all the rage in my class, my mum said 'no, earrings are for girls', and that was that. If her opinion on the subject had been different, the outcome of my appeal would have been different, as it was for some of the other boys in my school. At the end of the day, we should accept that everyday decisions like those are for parents to make, and it's their decisions as parents which we (other grown adults) should really be respecting.
We should stand by and let parents piece holes in their children and (in your case) reinforce gender stereotypes and norms? No thanks. :thumbdown: We should be fighting against an arbitrary group having complete power over others. In some cases, the parents have to make the decision for the child, but we should be trying to restrict the amount of times parents can harm their children.

[manic expression]

Oh c'mon people! It's just basic hygiene. You do know circumcision originated as a religious/cultural practice, right? And as such, there is little to no reason for continuing the practice today? Just clean it! There's little difference between a circumcised penis and an uncircumcised one.
Lots of things originated as religious/cultural practices...that doesn't make them horrible (sometimes they are, sometimes they're fine). And plus, if there's little difference between the two as you say, why all the fuss anyway?

[Decolonize The Left]

Lots of things originated as religious/cultural practices...that doesn't make them horrible (sometimes they are, sometimes they're fine). And plus, if there's little difference between the two as you say, why all the fuss anyway?


We should stand by and let parents piece holes in their children and (in your case) reinforce gender stereotypes and norms? No thanks. :thumbdown: We should be fighting against an arbitrary group having complete power over others. In some cases, the parents have to make the decision for the child, but we should be trying to restrict the amount of times parents can harm their children.

Same goes for circumcision.

- August

[Tenka]

Lots of things originated as religious/cultural practices...that doesn't make them horrible (sometimes they are, sometimes they're fine). And plus, if there's little difference between the two as you say, why all the fuss anyway?
Because a circumcision is fucking irreversible and more people than you would suspect regret having that decision made for them by traditionalist parents?
The procedure is almost invariably unnecessary, it can lead to complications, it dries out the penis and in general makes it somewhat more tedious to fap. Fuck cultural practices that involve permanently excising pieces of healthy genitals of infants for no reason (of medical necessity), without their ability to consent to it. Children aren't property.
But this isn't a thread about circumcision. Piercing an infant's ears is pretty dumb, too, but it's not quite comparable IMO.

[The Stalinator]

Can't stand those people who dress up their babies like dolls.

I got my ears pierced when I was 6. I can't really remember if it was my idea or if my mom said I should, but you absolutely should not be piercing, removing or reconfiguring any part of your kid's body (for cosmetic reasons) until they're old enough to consent and understand exactly what is going on.

[Vanguard1917]

We should stand by and let parents piece holes in their children and (in your case) reinforce gender stereotypes and norms? No thanks. :thumbdown: We should be fighting against an arbitrary group having complete power over others. In some cases, the parents have to make the decision for the child, but we should be trying to restrict the amount of times parents can harm their children.

They're not harming their children by piercing their daughters' earlobes or circumcising their sons. But according to your logic, hundreds of millions of people are child abusers. Such is your irrational misevaluation of the situation.

[Decolonize The Left]

They're not harming their children by piercing their daughters' earlobes or circumcising their sons. But according to your logic, hundreds of millions of people are child abusers. Such is your irrational misevaluation of the situation.

Please stop puking out your opinion about who's "not harming" kids you don't know and never will know. You're just repeatedly talking out of your ass at this point.

Or maybe you're just irrationally 'misevaluating' the situation?

- August

[Quail]

In reality it's not their choice; it's the parents' choice. When i was about 9 or 10 and wanted a little gold stud in my left ear because it was all the rage in my class, my mum said 'no, earrings are for girls', and that was that. If her opinion on the subject had been different, the outcome of my appeal would have been different, as it was for some of the other boys in my school. At the end of the day, we should accept that everyday decisions like those are for parents to make, and it's their decisions as parents which we (other grown adults) should really be respecting.
Let's just turn this on its head and say, what would you have done if you hadn't wanted your ear pierced at this age and your mum just decided that you were getting it done and that was that. Does that still seem reasonable to you?

[Vanguard1917]

Let's just turn this on its head and say, what would you have done if you hadn't wanted your ear pierced at this age and your mum just decided that you were getting it done and that was that. Does that still seem reasonable to you?

I don't think that that is a typical scenario. But even if it did happen, it doesn't change the fact that a normal piercing of the ear is a triviality, not child abuse or a human-rights infringement.