Steve Jobs Was Not God

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Probably the single best thing to ever come from Gawker:

So, Steve Jobs is dead. A tech genius has passed on. Sad. Certainly a devastating loss to Steve Jobs' close friends and family members, as well as to Apple executives and shareholders. The rest of you? Calm down.

Among my Facebook friends yesterday, more than one wrote publicly that they were "crying" or "can't stop crying" or "teared up" due to Steve Jobs' death. Really now. You can't stop crying, now that you've heard that a middle-aged CEO has passed on, after a long battle with cancer? If humans were always so empathetic, well, that would be understandable. But this type of one-upmanship of public displays of grief is both unbecoming and undeserved.

Real outpourings of public grief should be reserved for those people who lived life so heroically and selflessly that they stand as shining examples of love for all of humanity. People like, for example, the Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth, who—along with his family—was bombed, beaten, and stabbed during his years of principled activism in the US civil rights movement. Shuttlesworth died yesterday, the same day as Steve Jobs. He did not die a billionaire.

Death, of course, is not a competition. All deaths are sad for the living. Everyone deserves to be mourned, and well-known people will inevitably be mourned more loudly than others. But it is actually important to keep our grief in perspective. When we start mourning technocrats as idols, we cheapen the lives of those who have sacrificed more for their fellow man.

Steve Jobs was great at what he did. There's no need to further fellate the man's memory. He made good computers, he made good phones, he made good music players. He sold them well. He got obscenely rich. He enabled an entire generation of techie design fetishists to walk around with more attractive gadgets. He did not meaningfully reduce poverty, or make life-saving scientific discoveries, or end wars or heal the sick or befriend the friendless. Which is fine—most of us don't. But most of us don't provoke such cult-like lachrymosity when we pass on. When even the journalists tasked with covering you and your company are reduced to pie-eyed fans apologizing for discomforting your insanely powerful multibillion-dollar corporation in some minor way, some perspective has been lost.

I've never owned an Apple product. Yet here I am, talking on phones, typing on computers, and reading the internet every day. If you like Apple products, fine. They are products. They do not have souls. They are not heroes, and neither is their creator, no matter how skilled he may have been. Let's mourn Steve Jobs as we mourn the passing of any other good man—modestly, privately, and quietly. Those of you whose remembrances have already taken on a quasi-religious tone: seek help.

http://gawker.com/5847338

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Apple was succesful for the hard effort of the workers,not only for the ideas of a capitalist.

[Aleenik]

So, Steve Jobs wasn't real?:p

The way people are reacting to the death of Steve Jobs is over the top though, I agree. He was a bourgeois. He may not have seen it as he was exploiting people, but he was as all of us here know. It sucks he died. I think it sucks when anyone dies. However, I don't feel any greater degree of sadness towards his death.

I do like Apple products though.:) I don't currently own any however.

[Nox]

He made good computers

Fuck off, you've got to be kidding right?

[matevz91]

Probably the single best thing to ever come from Gawker:

So, Steve Jobs is dead. A tech genius has passed on. Sad. Certainly a devastating loss to Steve Jobs' close friends and family members, as well as to Apple executives and shareholders. The rest of you? Calm down.

Among my Facebook friends yesterday, more than one wrote publicly that they were "crying" or "can't stop crying" or "teared up" due to Steve Jobs' death. Really now. You can't stop crying, now that you've heard that a middle-aged CEO has passed on, after a long battle with cancer? If humans were always so empathetic, well, that would be understandable. But this type of one-upmanship of public displays of grief is both unbecoming and undeserved.

Real outpourings of public grief should be reserved for those people who lived life so heroically and selflessly that they stand as shining examples of love for all of humanity. People like, for example, the Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth, who—along with his family—was bombed, beaten, and stabbed during his years of principled activism in the US civil rights movement. Shuttlesworth died yesterday, the same day as Steve Jobs. He did not die a billionaire.

Death, of course, is not a competition. All deaths are sad for the living. Everyone deserves to be mourned, and well-known people will inevitably be mourned more loudly than others. But it is actually important to keep our grief in perspective. When we start mourning technocrats as idols, we cheapen the lives of those who have sacrificed more for their fellow man.

Steve Jobs was great at what he did. There's no need to further fellate the man's memory. He made good computers, he made good phones, he made good music players. He sold them well. He got obscenely rich. He enabled an entire generation of techie design fetishists to walk around with more attractive gadgets. He did not meaningfully reduce poverty, or make life-saving scientific discoveries, or end wars or heal the sick or befriend the friendless. Which is fine—most of us don't. But most of us don't provoke such cult-like lachrymosity when we pass on. When even the journalists tasked with covering you and your company are reduced to pie-eyed fans apologizing for discomforting your insanely powerful multibillion-dollar corporation in some minor way, some perspective has been lost.

I've never owned an Apple product. Yet here I am, talking on phones, typing on computers, and reading the internet every day. If you like Apple products, fine. They are products. They do not have souls. They are not heroes, and neither is their creator, no matter how skilled he may have been. Let's mourn Steve Jobs as we mourn the passing of any other good man—modestly, privately, and quietly. Those of you whose remembrances have already taken on a quasi-religious tone: seek help.

http://gawker.com/5847338

Sadly, but I too know some such people. Nobody actually cried, but they were depressed the whole day.

I do own apple computers (my good old powermac g4 mdd is crunching away right next to me), but I agree with you. There is nothing god-like in Steve Jobs. He was just a ordinary person who succeeded totally in his life and who did astonishing things.

Were those persons who cry after him told what his behavior towards employees was like? What kind of a person was he? I would never work for him, ever.

[Iron Felix]

I still think Macs are shit.

[W1N5T0N]

I still think Macs are shit.

Macs are *the shit --Fixed

[aristos]

It's Michael Jackson all over again.

[CleverTitle]

I've honestly never correlated Jobs' contributions with recent stuff like iPods, Macs, etc. I generally look further back. Even so, most of the stuff that could be qualified as "revolutionary" was due to Steve Wozniak, not Jobs. Woz is cool.

Anyway, the article is awesome. Very surprising to see Gawker put this out.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Fuck off, you've got to be kidding right?

Never thought I'd agree with a Stalinist

[EvilRedGuy]

So, Steve Jobs wasn't real?:p

The way people are reacting to the death of Steve Jobs is over the top though, I agree. He was a bourgeois. He may not have seen it as he was exploiting people, but he was as all of us here know. It sucks he died. I think it sucks when anyone dies. However, I don't feel any greater degree of sadness towards his death.

I do like Apple products though.:) I don't currently own any however.

You don't seem to care about all those workers in sweatshops and kids in Africa who dies. Though.

[El Louton]

When Tony Benn dies I'll cry.

[bricolage]

Fuck off, you've got to be kidding right?
Why? Apple make very good computers.

[#FF0000]

Why? Apple make very good computers.

they're overpriced. You can get another computer for less with more functionality. doesn't mean they're not good but you can do way better

but yeah the mac v. pc stuff is annoying stop it please

[bricolage]

they're overpriced. You can get another computer for less with more functionality. doesn't mean they're not good but you can do way better
yeah I agree they are expensive but that doesn't stop them being good.

but yeah the mac v. pc stuff is annoying stop it please
yeah true.

[CommunityBeliever]

Why? Apple make very good computers. Good relative to what? There certainly not good relative to what is possible in a post-capitalist society.

[R_P_A_S]

Thank you for articulating what I been wanting to say to all my friends who are in "mourning".

[Rafiq]

Don't expect the day for me to shed a tear for a child labor enthusiast like Steve Jobs.

[bricolage]

Good relative to what?
Other computers?

There certainly not good relative to what is possible in a post-capitalist society.
Well sure, but that applies to everything. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

[CommunityBeliever]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The point I am trying to make is I am not sure what you mean when you say apple makes "good computers". Apple corporation is a part of capitalism and therefore everything it produces is relatively bad. For example, apple's products are known to be full of DRM features deliberately put in place to restrict user activity.

[S.Artesian]

Jobs dead? First I heard about it. Better tell all those Foxconn workers to observe a minute of silence before contemplating suicide.

I'm sure the Apple store on Prince will lower its flag [made up of pixelated dollar bills] to half staff, and introduce a whole new line of black Ipod minis and nanos with Jobs' image as the welcome screen.

Short version: Who gives a flying fuck. Jobs? Trump with a GUI.

[bricolage]

The point I am trying to make is I am not sure what you mean when you say apple makes "good computers.
Like I said, relative to other computers around. In the grand scheme of things though the computers are 'good' in that they work, are easy to use, turn on and off etc etc.

Apple corporation is a part of capitalism and therefore everything it produces is relatively bad.
Everything is part of capitalism and sure it's all 'bad' but on the other hand I like the computer I'm typing on the bed I sleep in and the shirt I'm wearing and so forth. It's all relative.

For example, apple's products are known to be full of DRM features deliberately put in place to restrict user activity.
I don't really know what this means but I don't disagree with you, if that makes sense. I'm talking in relation to what there is now though.

[Q]

they're overpriced. You can get another computer for less with more functionality. doesn't mean they're not good but you can do way better
This is what I've always said, until I started working for Apple and getting first hand experience with their hardware all the time. It has to be said that their stuff is simply finetuned to the max, which is logical as they only have to care about a limited range of hardware. But yeah, it just works, always.


but yeah the mac v. pc stuff is annoying stop it please
I can't emphasize enough that this is a false dichotomy: First of all Apple computers, like iMacs, are pc's too. Secondly, the "pc" (by which is meant a computer running Windows) is not always a "pc". I haven't run Windows for almost a decade. Linux is my thing, at home anyway.

But even at work, when I ask my collegues for example about BIOS settings on a mac, I get answers like "oh no, that's for Windows" and I just facepalm.

[agnixie]

But even at work, when I ask my collegues for example about BIOS settings on a mac, I get answers like "oh no, that's for Windows" and I just facepalm.

Strictly speaking, while they're wrong, they're at least partially right that macs have no BIOS (the EFI can emulate a BIOS and it's possible to make OSX boot on a BIOS with some tweaks to both), and unlike Asus' EFI boards they don't have a backup BIOS.

[Q]

Strictly speaking, while they're wrong, they're at least partially right that macs have no BIOS (the EFI can emulate a BIOS and it's possible to make OSX boot on a BIOS with some tweaks to both), and unlike Asus' EFI boards they don't have a backup BIOS.

I know. The point I was making was that everyone just seems to think that PC = Windows and therefore BIOS = Windows. I can partially understand it from a Mac angle, as Mac people are used to holistic products: When you buy an Apple product, it's one integrated whole.

But it's still wrong.

[Q]

Oh, ontopic btw. This appeared on the frontpage of De Volkskrant yesterday, a Dutch national newspaper. Thought it was pretty lulzy :p

http://cdn.dailym.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/VKJos_Collignon_Stev_Jobs-700x489.jpg?bc4467

[Delenda Carthago]

Foxconn

[Queercommie Girl]

If Steve Jobs is God, then the Chinese Foxconn workers committing suicide must be a modern form of human sacrifice.

[Aleenik]

You don't seem to care about all those workers in sweatshops and kids in Africa who dies. Though.Wtf are you talking about? Of course I care. Lots of companies use cheap labor though. Are we suppose to live with sticks and stones? You should probably quit using your computer. It was surely made with parts using cheap labor in China.

[Экс-фашистских]

For the price of a Mac, you can buy the best PC on the market.

The Mac was made to benefit the capitalist and to rip the little funds the workers had, out of their hands.


Mac computers aren't even good either.

[Aleenik]

The Mac was made to benefit the capitalist and to rip the little funds the workers had, out of their handsCan't that be applied to all Capitalist products? Or at least most of them?

[Coggeh]

PC killed steve jobs...lol

[Q]

For the price of a Mac, you can buy the best PC on the market.

...

Mac computers aren't even good either.

Have you ever used a Mac yourself? Not a few minutes by someone else's Mac, but for a few days, so you get a feeling of the system? Because, again, this is what I've always said too, until I started using Macs myself. They're slick, have a lot of features that the competition doesn't have and always work, simple as that.

[agnixie]

Foxconn

is subcontracted by every oem?

produces most of the world's consumer electronics and then some?

is not a subsidiary of Apple?

[Coggeh]

Have you ever used a Mac yourself? Not a few minutes by someone else's Mac, but for a few days, so you get a feeling of the system? Because, again, this is what I've always said too, until I started using Macs myself. They're slick, have a lot of features that the competition doesn't have and always work, simple as that.
Never used a mac but apple products just down right suck, Ipods break on their own when you update them, ipad has no USB CONNECTION! and all the new things their coming out with seem little more than stupid gimmicks rather than the inventive design of some techno demi-god

[Q]

Never used a mac but apple products just down right suck, Ipods break on their own when you update them, ipad has no USB CONNECTION! and all the new things their coming out with seem little more than stupid gimmicks rather than the inventive design of some techno demi-god

I haven't touched iOS devices yet, can't comment on them. Soon though. It does seem that they're more and more lagging behind on the competition in this field, the iphone 4S for example was a big disappointment in my opinion. I do hope they'll soon get in a higher gear again.

[aristos]

I always used to hear how Macs don't get viruses, how they are so awesomely stable, how they are this and that...

The first time I used a Mac it immediately froze on me.

Oh well. I guess a spinning rainbow wheel is prettier than a blue screen.

[Agent Ducky]

The most annoying thing about Macs, as someone who uses both Macs and Windows on a regular basis, is the command key in addition to the control key. Windows uses the control key for keyboard shortcuts and Macs use the command key. They're in different places. WHY?

[Q]

The most annoying thing about Macs, as someone who uses both Macs and Windows on a regular basis, is the command key in addition to the control key. Windows uses the control key for keyboard shortcuts and Macs use the command key. They're in different places. WHY?

True, although you can edit that (http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1343):


Advanced: This article refers to the default modifier key assignments. Modifier key assignments can be changed in the Keyboard & Mouse preferences pane of System Preferences. For example, you can change the Command key to act as an Option key, and vice-versa. You can also restore default modifier key settings.

[Nox]

Why? Apple make very good computers.

Apple's computers are a PERFECT example of Capitalist products:

- Looks good, but has poor functionality
- Breaks easily
- Extremely overpriced

[Magón]

Apple's computers are a PERFECT example of Capitalist products:

- Looks good, but has poor functionality
- Breaks easily
- Extremely overpriced

I got a Macbook Pro from a stupid little contest, and it hasn't broken or functioned poorly compared to the desktop I also own.

The whole Mac v. Microsoft shit is childish. People like what they like.

[aristos]

You can't build this with a mac though:

http://www.dvhardware.net/article27538.html

:p

[bricolage]

- Looks good, but has poor functionality
- Breaks easily
These two aren't true.

- Extremely overpriced
This probably is.

computercomputerfapfapfap

[Nox]

I got a Macbook Pro from a stupid little contest, and it hasn't broken or functioned poorly compared to the desktop I also own.

The whole Mac v. Microsoft shit is childish. People like what they like.


These two aren't true.

I'm not comparing them to PCs, I'm just saying they are shit.

I'm just basing it on my experience with Macs and the experiences of people I know.

They have piss poor functionality, the specs are pathetic for the price you pay.

[black magick hustla]

idk who was steve jobs until i looked him up after reading those facebook things

i have a mac and an iphone tho :)))))))))

[Q]

I'm not comparing them to PCs

Macs are PC's (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2255824&postcount=23).

I could add that historically speaking Mac's were different from other pc's as Windows machines were based on the x86 architecture (intel and AMD cpu's), while Apple used its own cpu brand based on the Power architecture of IBM. Since 2006 though Apple switched to normal intel cpu's, so even in that respect Apple's are indeed pc's.

[Nox]

Macs are PC's (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2255824&postcount=23).

I could add that historically speaking Mac's were different from other pc's as Windows machines were based on the x86 architecture (intel and AMD cpu's), while Apple used its own cpu brand based on the Power architecture of IBM. Since 2006 though Apple switched to normal intel cpu's, so even in that respect Apple's are indeed pc's.

Technically speaking, yes they are PCs.

I'm just using common language here :)

[Q]

Technically speaking, yes they are PCs.

I'm just using common language here :)

Yes and the rebel inside me is fighting the common conception ;)

It has always annoyed me as I've been a long time Linux user. After all, if Macs are Macs and PCs are Windows, then what is Linux? You'll be amazed how many people find that confusing.

[Vanguard1917]

Foxconn

"The problem with these arguments is that they are built on dodgy facts and even dodgier politics. It is just not accurate to say that there has been a particularly weird spate of suicides at Foxconn. It is worth bearing in mind that Foxconn’s Longhua factory (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7798741/Steve-Jobs-says-Apple-is-all-over-Foxconn-suicides.html) employs somewhere between 300,000 and 400,000 people (that is, it is more populous than the British cities of Nottingham, Belfast and Newcastle). And according to the most recent figures from the World Health Organisation (http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/), the suicide rate in China is 13 males and 14.8 females per 100,000 of the population. This means that, technically, it is rarer for a worker at Foxconn to commit suicide than it is for a Chinese person who doesn’t work at Foxconn: one might expect there to be somewhere between 39 and 52 suicides amongst Foxconn’s vast male and female workforce in Longhua over the course of the year, in keeping with the national average rate, or roughly 20 suicides in the five months of the year so far. There have been 12. As one of the very few critics (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/foremski/media-gets-its-facts-wrong-working-at-foxconn-significantly-cuts-suicide-risk/1356) of the ‘iPad suicides’ hysteria has pointed out, perhaps a little bit glibly, ‘Working at Foxconn dramatically reduces people’s risk of suicide!’

"What is really driving the ‘iPad suicides’ story is the desire to create a cheap moralism in which the allegedly greedy behaviour of mainly Western consumers is held directly responsible for the living conditions of people ‘over there’.

...

"Of course, pay and working conditions in many of China’s factories, including at Foxconn, are dire. Chinese people, who actually experience these conditions, are perfectly aware of this fact and there are a rising number of work-related protests (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a1726846-6e70-11df-ad16-00144feabdc0.html) (in response to protests, Foxconn has just increased wages by 30 per cent; Honda workers in China are currently demanding a 50 per cent pay rise). The condition of Chinese workers will not be helped one iota by the outpouring of iGuilt amongst hacks and activists in London, Paris and Washington. Indeed, the patronising message of their morality tale is not only that Westerners should learn to live with less, but that we should also help to save the poor little Chinese people by refusing to buy Steve Jobs’ evil products. It would be better to offer proper solidarity to those Chinese people who are struggling for better working conditions and to stop fantasising that buying an iPad will kill them and not buying one will save them."

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8954/

[Arlekino]

Chinese Foxconn workers send own ‘message to Jobs’
[URL="http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/10/06/chinese-foxconn-workers-send-their-own-message-to-mr-j
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/FuckUSteve.jpg

[S.Artesian]

"The problem with these arguments is that they are built on dodgy facts and even dodgier politics. It is just not accurate to say that there has been a particularly weird spate of suicides at Foxconn. It is worth bearing in mind that Foxconn’s Longhua factory (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/7798741/Steve-Jobs-says-Apple-is-all-over-Foxconn-suicides.html) employs somewhere between 300,000 and 400,000 people (that is, it is more populous than the British cities of Nottingham, Belfast and Newcastle). And according to the most recent figures from the World Health Organisation (http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/), the suicide rate in China is 13 males and 14.8 females per 100,000 of the population. This means that, technically, it is rarer for a worker at Foxconn to commit suicide than it is for a Chinese person who doesn’t work at Foxconn: one might expect there to be somewhere between 39 and 52 suicides amongst Foxconn’s vast male and female workforce in Longhua over the course of the year, in keeping with the national average rate, or roughly 20 suicides in the five months of the year so far. There have been 12. As one of the very few critics (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/foremski/media-gets-its-facts-wrong-working-at-foxconn-significantly-cuts-suicide-risk/1356) of the ‘iPad suicides’ hysteria has pointed out, perhaps a little bit glibly, ‘Working at Foxconn dramatically reduces people’s risk of suicide!’

What was it Twain said? "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." I think that was it.

Spiked can try telling its bullshit to the workers at Foxconn who know why some have committed suicide at the workplace.

What should be compared is the rate of suicide at work, in the workplace, and of people in the work place of comparable age, education, etc. not the rate of a general population which includes of course, children, mature adults, and elderly.

You might as well point out that the Tunisian street vendor who immolated himself represented a rate of suicide among college graduate impoverished street vendors in Tunisia that is below the rate for the general population of Tunis. Ergo, being an impoverished, educated, harassed street vendor actually reduces the likelihood of suicide.

I think Spiked is so full of shit in almost everything it writes.

[agnixie]

What was it Twain said? "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." I think that was it.

Spiked can try telling its bullshit to the workers at Foxconn who know why some have committed suicide at the workplace.


Foxconn is still one of the top exporters in the world and absolutely every major OEM for computers and most major OEM for phones, plus every console maker is subcontracting to them and that's only a part of the electronics they do. Even Cisco is a customer of Foxconn. If you're backpatting yourself about not having a mac because of the conditions in Foxconn, you're a hypocrite who should be a) less of a smug douche and b) actually do shit towards actual improvements that are not stupid "consumer democracy" because in consumer democracy it's one dollar one vote and the system/class causing these conditions is outvoting us millions to one.

[S.Artesian]

Foxconn is still one of the top exporters in the world and absolutely every major OEM for computers and most major OEM for phones, plus every console maker is subcontracting to them and that's only a part of the electronics they do. Even Cisco is a customer of Foxconn. If you're backpatting yourself about not having a mac because of the conditions in Foxconn, you're a hypocrite who should be a) less of a smug douche and b) actually do shit towards actual improvements that are not stupid "consumer democracy" because in consumer democracy it's one dollar one vote and the system/class causing these conditions is outvoting us millions to one.

WTF? I know very well what Foxconn is and how ubiquitous its products are in consumer electronics. I'm not backpatting myself about anything. I'm pointing out how full of shit Spiked is in that post, just as I'm pointing out how chock full of shit you are in this post.

I could give a fuck about PCs, Macs, Linux based, any of that shit. And I give less of a shit about you, you smug, sanctimonious, jerk.

[Wanted Man]

I read that in several countries, from New York to Tokyo, people placed flowers or candles, or post-its with condolences, at the Apple Store to show their sympathy. Apparently shops really are modern-day shrines. It's actually pretty puzzling. A guy on our version of "Have I Got News For You" said something like: "I would have considered it a decent gesture to simply send his family a postcard, but this is just weird."

I also saw a picture of a group of people in California standing outside in the night with their iPhones on, holding them up so that the backlight of the screen pointed to the sky like a torch or lighters at a concert, lighting the way for Steve to find his way to heaven (or something like that :rolleyes: ).

It's always rather amazing what happens when celebrities die. Normally, when, say, a friend or a relative dies, you grief in private with friends, loved ones, etc. But in the case of someone like Steve Jobs, I don't think people really feel sad or that they are really grieving. Placing flowers at the Apple Store is a matter of publicly showing the world that you also care, that you are a worshipper as well. Just like how some people go to Church every Sunday not because they truly believe in God, but because it's just the right thing to do in a lot of communities.


Foxconn is still one of the top exporters in the world and absolutely every major OEM for computers and most major OEM for phones, plus every console maker is subcontracting to them and that's only a part of the electronics they do. Even Cisco is a customer of Foxconn. If you're backpatting yourself about not having a mac because of the conditions in Foxconn, you're a hypocrite who should be a) less of a smug douche and b) actually do shit towards actual improvements that are not stupid "consumer democracy" because in consumer democracy it's one dollar one vote and the system/class causing these conditions is outvoting us millions to one.

This is just plain and simple reversal. Nobody is patting themselves on the back for not owning a Mac. The reason people mention the Foxconn thing is in response to people who mourn Steve Jobs as a "great man".

[Vanguard1917]

What should be compared is the rate of suicide at work, in the workplace, and of people in the work place of comparable age, education, etc. not the rate of a general population which includes of course, children, mature adults, and elderly.

And you've gathered this data, have you?

If suicide rates are far lower among Foxconn workers than among the wider Chinese population, it would not be correct to say that suicide rates are higher among Foxconn workers than in China in general. That's what the article is saying.

But some Westerners' egos are so substantial that they think everything that happens in the world, whether good or bad, is all about them and their consumer/lifestyle choices. That's why the suicides at Foxconn became such big news in the West.

[EvilRedGuy]

Wtf are you talking about? Of course I care. Lots of companies use cheap labor though. Are we suppose to live with sticks and stones? You should probably quit using your computer. It was surely made with parts using cheap labor in China.

I know. But you're still dumb if you cry over these people like they did something great to humanity. Compared to what millions other have done, actual labor.


PS- Technology isn't compatible with Capitalism. Unless you want semi-broken shit.

[Psy]

What people mourning Steve Jobs seem to forget is he didn't engineer the stuff, Woz engineered the first Apple Computers and the engineers of the first Mac hated Steve Jobs's micromanagement.

[Ocean Seal]

I truly hope that the Chinese workers who were poisoned by Apple get an equal amount of mourning as Steve Jobs. But the media will shrug it off, refusing to ask questions. I know that if those workers die, I'll be mourning them, and people will probably think that I'm weird, or a dirty commie who's trying to shit all over Job's legacy. But truly, I'm just trying to bring attention to something important to me. The livelihood of my fellow workers. To me those workers are almost anonymous, I don't know much about them, I don't know their names, I only vaguely know where their from. But those worker's worked really hard to make apple products, and what were they repaid with--poison. They were equally valuable in our society. They probably worked shifts that would scare Jobs and Gates. It's amazing how many people will shrug off what they did, because they see those workers as tools who can be easily replaced, whereas CEO's are forever. I guess that's what alienation is. I propose that wherever you are please take a moment of silence for these workers, and hope that they can win their battle.

[S.Artesian]

And you've gathered this data, have you?

If suicide rates are far lower among Foxconn workers than among the wider Chinese population, it would not be correct to say that suicide rates are higher among Foxconn workers than in China in general. That's what the article is saying.

But some Westerners' egos are so substantial that they think everything that happens in the world, whether good or bad, is all about them and their consumer/lifestyle choices. That's why the suicides at Foxconn became such big news in the West.

I haven't the data period. I'm saying the sample comparison is skewed. How many people commit suicide at the workplace is the critical factor. You could just as well argue that the self-immolation of the street vendor in Tunisia probably constitutes a rate of suicide for street vendors less than that of the population at large.

In recent years there has been considerable press play about suicides among small, and subsistence, rural producers in India. The same, exactly the same, argument has been made about those suicides-- that they are at a rate below that of the population of a whole. So obviously being an impoverished subsistence producer in India, driven off the land and/or into unsustainable debt reduces suicides, right?

Wrong. It isn't an issue of quantitative statistical comparison. It's an issue of a change in social conditions precipitating the event. That's the difference between historical materialism and Spiked's bullshit quantitative analysis.

[S.Artesian]

I know. But you're still dumb if you cry over these people like they did something great to humanity. Compared to what millions other have done, actual labor.


PS- Technology isn't compatible with Capitalism. Unless you want semi-broken shit.


PS Keep that in mind next time you get on an airplane, turn on your lights, answer your email.

[NewLeft]

RIP Foxconn workers.

Steve Jobs is no innovator, he stole his work from others like a true capitalist. He is not a modern era Edison. His innovations did not change the world or progress humanity in any shape or form. If anything, his useless innovations are contributing to the destruction of the Earth through their unsustainable production.. The iPod, iPhone, iMac, Macbook Pro..etc. are all unnecessary.

[Vanguard1917]

I haven't the data period.

But surely you need evidence before you can argue that suicide rates were particularly high for Foxconn workers? You would need to show that suicide rates for workers at other workplaces were lower. If Foxconn employed 350,000 workers in the year that most of the suicides took place, and if there were 12 suicides that year, that would be one suicide per 29,167 workers. If another company in China employed 20,000 workers and, in one year, two workers jumped to their deaths out of their dormitory windows, the rate of suicide there would be significantly higher.

And no, i'm not for a moment defending the conduct of any company in China. (And nor, for the record, can i get particularly excited about a company like Apple or the gadgets and adult toys it produces.) But it's important to be clear on the facts before we can properly understand anything.

[Queercommie Girl]

Foxconn isn't the worst in mainland China. In fact, many migrant workers in China actually prefer to go to relatively "hi-tech" factories because "low-tech" workplaces in China are much worse.

Take Chinese mines for instance. China has the highest rate of mine "accidents" in the world, far exceeding that of the US and even higher than countries like Chile. In the last decade alone thousands have already perished. Foxconn isn't the worst "hell" for workers in China.

[Queercommie Girl]

And you've gathered this data, have you?

If suicide rates are far lower among Foxconn workers than among the wider Chinese population, it would not be correct to say that suicide rates are higher among Foxconn workers than in China in general. That's what the article is saying.

But some Westerners' egos are so substantial that they think everything that happens in the world, whether good or bad, is all about them and their consumer/lifestyle choices. That's why the suicides at Foxconn became such big news in the West.

It's not just the suicide per se that's the issue. The working conditions in factories like Foxconn are not really suitable for human beings, especially in the long-term, that's an objective fact. Most workers won't go as far as committing suicide, but their overall health and well-being would surely be negatively affected. The working hours are too long, the discipline is too strict, the pay is too low. It's a much worse working condition than almost anywhere in advanced capitalist countries (not just in the West but also in other more developed Asian countries too).

The whole point of labour activism is to improve working conditions and improve pay for all workers, but especially for ultra-oppressed workers like those in China. Suicides are horrible and they sharply highlight the problems at such workplaces, but with or without suicides, the working conditions are unacceptable and worker's struggles are required to change this.

Another thing is that we need to counter the views of some right-wing media (including many in China) that those workers who committed suicide did so largely due to their own fault rather than due to the extremely oppressive working conditions.

[Queercommie Girl]

Also, in China suicide rates and rates of mental illnesses are higher than the global average, largely as a result of the neo-liberal capitalist system China now adopts, which has created an economic inequality greater than that of the United States.

So it's society in general in China that is basically completely fucked, and not just a single Foxconn factory.

[S.Artesian]

But surely you need evidence before you can argue that suicide rates were particularly high for Foxconn workers? You would need to show that suicide rates for workers at other workplaces were lower. If Foxconn employed 350,000 workers in the year that most of the suicides took place, and if there were 12 suicides that year, that would be one suicide per 29,167 workers. If another company in China employed 20,000 workers and, in one year, two workers jumped to their deaths out of their dormitory windows, the rate of suicide there would be significantly higher.

And no, i'm not for a moment defending the conduct of any company in China. (And nor, for the record, can i get particularly excited about a company like Apple or the gadgets and adult toys it produces.) But it's important to be clear on the facts before we can properly understand anything.


I'm not arguing anything about the rate; the rate is immaterial. If people commit suicide because of their working conditions, harassment, threats at work, that's the issue not how many do it. You are not dealing with the general population under general circumstances.

I haven't argued that the rate is high. I'm arguing about the fact that workers have explicitly committed suicides over working conditions. Get it?

That's the point. That's the same point about the rural producer suicides in India.

The point you are not getting is the difference between historical materialism and bullshit quantitative analysis.

[Vanguard1917]

I'm not arguing anything about the rate; the rate is immaterial.

I generally agree. I also believe that a high suicide rate in a workplace does not necessarily tell us that conditions there are any worse than conditions at other workplaces. And, conversely, a lower suicide rate does not necessarily mean that conditions are better than they are elsewhere. A high suicide rate among workers can be caused by low levels of workers' organisation, for instance - a high level of effective unionisation among the workforce tends to assuage feelings of despair, not to mention self-destructiveness.


I haven't argued that the rate is high. I'm arguing about the fact that workers have explicitly committed suicides over working conditions. Get it?

That may be true, or it may not. There certainly isn't a straight line between exploitation at work and taking your own life. If there were, we would be in trouble.

[S.Artesian]

That may be true, or it may not. There certainly isn't a straight line between exploitation at work and taking your own life. If there were, we would be in trouble.

Exactly, there is no quantitative correlation so why does Spiked want to establish one, claiming that the rate is lower at the factory than in society,
in its attempt to "disprove" the fact that the individual suicides at Foxconn and other plants have been the product of harassment, working conditions, failure of many factories to pay their workers etc etc., when workers themselves have spoken of just these factors? Maybe those workers are full of shit, and Spiked really knows what's going on in China?

That would be a first; and a laugh.

[Queercommie Girl]

Maybe vanguard should work "undercover" at Foxconn for a month to see for himself. You know, like the Chinese proverb says: Seek Truth from facts (and not abstract arguments). In fact, one relatively well-off middle class Chinese student did just that, and he found the conditions to be "unbearable". It's true that his own petit-bourgeois background may have something to do with his conclusion since working class people are supposed to be "tougher", but I think it does show that the working conditions there are quite bad generally speaking.

[Queercommie Girl]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299349_10150357674885854_585375853_8342568_7525175 44_n.jpg

Interesting photo.

[Vanguard1917]

Exactly, there is no quantitative correlation so why does Spiked want to establish one, claiming that the rate is lower at the factory than in society,
in its attempt to "disprove" the fact that the individual suicides at Foxconn and other plants have been the product of harassment, working conditions, failure of many factories to pay their workers etc etc., when workers themselves have spoken of just these factors?

You're just making things up now, because the article does no such thing. In fact, it calls working conditions at Foxconn 'dire'.

[Vanguard1917]

Maybe vanguard should work "undercover" at Foxconn for a month to see for himself. You know, like the Chinese proverb says: Seek Truth from facts (and not abstract arguments). In fact, one relatively well-off middle class Chinese student did just that, and he found the conditions to be "unbearable". It's true that his own petit-bourgeois background may have something to do with his conclusion since working class people are supposed to be "tougher", but I think it does show that the working conditions there are quite bad generally speaking.

I didn't argue that they aren't.

[∞]

As long as Bill Gates is still alive idgaf.

[∞]

RIP Foxconn workers.

Steve Jobs is no innovator, he stole his work from others like a true capitalist. He is not a modern era Edison. His innovations did not change the world or progress humanity in any shape or form. If anything, his useless innovations are contributing to the destruction of the Earth through their unsustainable production.. The iPod, iPhone, iMac, Macbook Pro..etc. are all unnecessary.

Edison was a shit aswell. Tesla's Alternate Current is superior to Eididick's DC in every way.

[EvilRedGuy]

PS Keep that in mind next time you get on an airplane, turn on your lights, answer your email.


Use your brain.

I know you can't.

[S.Artesian]

Use your brain.

I know you can't.

Says the guy using a computer to post on the internet, thus proving that capitalism and technology are incompatible.

My brain is just fine. It has a good grip on the relations between capitalism and technology.

Your grip, however, is nothing but a wanker's handshake.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Chinese Foxconn workers send own ‘message to Jobs’
[URL="http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/10/06/chinese-foxconn-workers-send-their-own-message-to-mr-j
http://www.thepoke.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/FuckUSteve.jpg

is this real?

edit: nvm it can't be real. lol

[human strike]

As an anarchist I naturally mourn the passing of Steve Jobs, but only 'cuz I hate windows.

Anyway, I dunno why this is suddenly news; there's been no Jobs for years...

[∞]

As an anarchist I naturally mourn the passing of Steve Jobs, but only 'cuz I hate windows.

Anyway, I dunno why this is suddenly news; there's been no Jobs for years...

Its shit like this, revleft.

[El Louton]

Lets not forget the thousands of innocent children who die everyday. One man isn't worth more than 1000 children. Wealth shouldn't be a measure of how good person you are.

[∞]

Lets not forget the thousands of innocent children who die everyday. One man isn't worth more than 1000 children. Wealth shouldn't be a measure of how good person you are.

Well I don't think it is. I doubt anyone besides stock-holders would commemorate Goldman Sachs or Donald Trump if they died. People like Steve Jobs because they like his product. He wasn't an evil capitalist really, all he was, was a guy who sold stuff people liked. People should care more about the under-privileged however, but mere loathing will accomplish nothing.

[EvilRedGuy]

Well I don't think it is. I doubt anyone besides stock-holders would commemorate Goldman Sachs or Donald Trump if they died. People like Steve Jobs because they like his product. He wasn't an evil capitalist really, all he was, was a guy who sold stuff people liked. People should care more about the under-privileged however, but mere loathing will accomplish nothing.


He was a CEO, so yes he was a "evil" capitalist exploiting millions of people. :rolleyes:

[CommunityBeliever]

In other news, one of the giants who defined the entire computing industry, Dennis Ritchie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie), died earlier this week [1]. Dennis Ritchie worked along Brian Kernighan (collectively they were known as K&R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%26R)) in order to create the C programming language and the UNIX operating system. They released these systems forty years ago, and they have defined the computing industry every since. Even today C is the main programming language is use, and along with its supersets, it defines as much as 32% of all software [2].

[1] Dennis Ritchie and Steve Jobs -- quite the juxtaposition (http://blogs.computerworld.com/19097/dennis_ritchie_and_steve_jobs_quite_the_juxtaposit ion)

[2] TIOBE Programming Community Index for October 2011 (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html)


People should care more about the under-privileged however, but mere loathing will accomplish nothing.

We aren't loathing anything, we are just disturbed by the ridiculous amount of media attention giving to the death of this exploitative CEO well the death of an important computing pioneer like Dennis Ritchie goes virtually unnoticed.


Well I don't think it is. I doubt anyone besides stock-holders would commemorate Goldman Sachs or Donald Trump if they died. People like Steve Jobs because they like his product. He wasn't an evil capitalist really, all he was, was a guy who sold stuff people liked.

What do you mean by "his product"? Steve Jobs stole other people's inventions, like the Xerox Alto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto), which was itself based upon the earlier Mother of all Demos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos), and he didn't personally improve them at all, he just exploited workers towards that end. Furthermore, like other capitalist IT companies, his company Apple uses tyrannical practices (see on the tyranny of Apple (http://www.revleft.com/vb/tyranny-apple-t162358/index.html?t=162358)).

[Zostrianos]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/298356_10150847376055543_774495542_21062764_173194 2376_n.jpg

[Queercommie Girl]

^

I posted something like that already.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2257372&postcount=70

[ZeroNowhere]

Insofar as I'm God, I think that we can rule out Steve Jobs being god prima facie.

[pastradamus]

Rumour has it that Steve Jobs isn't dead after all. As it turns out they were just holding him the wrong way.

A bit dark I know but it made me laugh.

[Ele'ill]

I didn't know this guy but I know what it feels like to have someone who you know intimately depart forever.

[Sasha]

http://tdwgeeks.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/281a7df0-7426-483d-84d6-391c5f83d51f.jpg