Difference between Communism and The Venus Project?

[Angry Young and Red]

I've been looking up The Venus Project, and I'm wondering what the major differences is between it and a Communist society. I haven't been able to make up any major, except for of course using different slogans and names...

The reason I'm wondering this is because I've had a pro-Venus Project person asking me about why I support Communism and not The Venus Project, and I really don't know what to tell him... I mean, I haven't been able to make up any major differences. I bet there are those though. What I'm also wondering is how should we Communists feel about the Venus Project, how should we criticize it etc.

[Angry Young and Red]

Okay, never mind, I looked it up further and found some very big differences, here's the two major ones I've found:

A: TVP is based on "Science" instead of Democracy. Technology makes all the big decisions.

B: In TVP, everything has been automized and is run by computers, so there's no-one working, atleast almost no-one.

So, what do you think is the best arguments against TVP-ers?

[The Idler]

Class society.

[o well this is ok I guess]

B isn't much a difference
That's an ideal outcome for us, too.
But really, it's as simple as asking how exactly they plan on bringing the venus project into fruition in the first place.

[aristos]

Well, the differences aren't particulaly big.

The major ones are:

1) Projects requiring exceptional skill should be managed by people posessing those skills (imo a reasonable proposal). On a larger scale it's the Scientific Method vs. Democracy

2) Pathological pacifism (one of the movement's biggest flaws)

3) Due to being oblivious to class struggle they believe ( or rather their media guru Peter Joseph believes) the can persuade the bourgeoisie to give up their privileges and animosity towards the workers by simply... wait for it... appealing to their conscience (Ta-DA!)

4) They are very idealist.


Still, even though they fervently deny it, most of their concepts of the future coincide with communist ideals (their stance on property is even more radical - not only do they want to abolish private property, but hope to, through education and abundance, to make away with personal property as well).

Oh, yes - they also place a great deal of emphasis on environmental sustainability, something that communist movements have historically held in very low regard.

[RadioRaheem84]

Oh, yes - they also place a great deal of emphasis on environmental sustainability, something that communist movements have historically held in very low regard.

historically as in the old soviet, old left?

[The Idler]

Wait no, I'm not saying class consciousness implies a vanguard or some sort of violent revolution. If TZM are persuading a majority for a resource-based economy then they're on the right lines, they just need a class analysis too.

[Thirsty Crow]

Well, for starters, TVP does not presuppose a radical, militant mass labour movement as the vehicle of the self-emancipation of the working class. In other words, their view on the politics of social transformation is entirely opposed to that of the communists and working class militants, who focus on (class) conscious revolutionary activity of the majority of the working class - the exploited and dominated social group in capitalism.

[scarletghoul]

countless people have come up with the idea of a colelctively owned and managed society (communism/anarchy/whatever) as an ideal. its pretty obvious for anyone with a little imagination and a basic understanding that this world has enough resources for us all

whatever the fuck this 'venus project' is, like zeitgeist and all that other crap, it differs from communism principally on the fact that the word communism connotes not just an ideal but a historical and contemporary movement of the working classes fighting for liberation. its easy to sketch out some ideal thing and maybe even back it up with some vague sciencey ideas, but unless you embrace class struggle and thereby join the communist movement, i dont really have any time for it lol (and neither do the masses). its nothing but a regression to the pre-marxist utopian communism

[aristos]

"The masses" don't seem to have any time for communism at the moment either, comrade.

[robbo203]

I understand there have been some attempts from within TZM to orientate the movement towards a more class-based analysis and also to democratise the structure of decisionmaking which seems to be leadership-focussed and centred on one or two figures like Peter Joseph which is not a healthy development at all. I know the SPGB or members of the SPGB have been quite active in initiating a dialogue with or within the TSM precisely with these kinds of objectives in mind though I dont quite know what the outcome has been. Perhaps DaveB, JimN or others from the SPGB on this list might care to provide an update?

[Delenda Carthago]

Does "Venus Project-Zeitgeist" movement even exist?

[EvilRedGuy]

^Yes fool, Zeitgeist and The Venus Project has seperated because Jacque Fresco believes its pseudo-science conspiracy bullshit. They splitted in April 2011.


TVP is a communist utopia. Following the tendency of Technocracy to control is, using evolution and education over revolution(there main drawback).

You can find many anarchists/communists on their forums!

I support The Venus Project, their technology would be useful in a post-capitalist society. Technocracy = Technological assistants from professionals in their fields. Its not compatible with capitalism because there is no democracy.

[aristos]

I don't think they split because of the conspiracy theories. The Zeitgeist movement has distanced itself from conspiracy theories of any kind (which doesn't prevent nutters from creeping up on their forums once in a while). Their main disagreement was about activism:
Zeitgeisters beleive activism should be, well.. active - distributing propaganda materials, organizing city chapters, holding rallies, public lectures, etc.
The Venus Project, on the other hand, have the bizzare notion that if they make a major motion picture (preferably with Hollywood endorsement) about their vision for the future humanity will convert instantely. :rolleyes:

One of the things Zeitgeisters/Venus Project do get more right than the radical left is the impending impact of accelerating technological unemployment. It might very well soon be impossible to organize labour in classical ways, as people are replaced by machines, thus abolishing workers altogether. As such communists are in for some rough times.
Time is certainly not on our side.

[EvilRedGuy]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Zeitgeist is a conspiracy nutjob club thats why TVP scrapped them. They said so them self.

[aristos]

The amusing part though, is how there is practically no mention of the Occupy Wall St. protests on the Zeitgeist forums, when what is going on is virtually a carbon copy of their proposed solution in their latest film.
I guess many prefer to live in the safety of their daydreams.

[aristos]

As I said there are New Age nutters on the forums but they are generally ridiculed and certainly not part of any official Zeitgeist policy. The Venus Project, however, is focused on their upcoming (or not [probably not]) "major motion picture".

[CommunityBeliever]

There is nothing unique about TVP. Their goal of a creating a post-scarcity type-1 civilisation that uses technologies like advanced automation, alternative energy, ocean cities, etc is generally shared amongst all non-primitivist leftists.

Unfortunately, their plan for creating this society is essentially to make movies, rather then to organise the working class to violently overthrow the bourgeoisie and the imperialists.

[GPDP]

They are modern-day utopian socialists. Not much more to it.

[DeBon]

A little off topicness here, has anyone ever just gone on YouTube and watched hours of Jacque Fresco's philosophical lectures on human nature and other things? Some of the things that man says are just amazing, I love his views on how incentives change and how fucked up the world is. :laugh:

On topic: The Venus Project makes pretty much 99% of everything that would require a job, from construction, to agriculture, to energy production, to the simple making of soap, in the hands of machines and technology. They're answer to "what will people do if they don't have jobs?" well Jacque Fresco believes if people don't have to do tedious work, they can focus more on education, family problems, and rehabilitating people who commit murders or what not. It's pretty Utopian, but I think it's too Utopian for our times. Let's stick with the class struggle first.

[Zealot]

From TVP's FAQ on their website:


Is this what Karl Marx advocated? (http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project/faq#)
Although Marx was a brilliant man for his time, he did not foresee the methods and advantages of a high-tech resource-based economy. Communism used money and labor, had social stratification, and elected officials to maintain the communists' traditions. Most importantly, Communism did not eliminate SCARCITY nor did they have a blueprint or the methods for the production of abundance. Machine production rather than labor will dominate the future. Perhaps through no fault of their own, they also had to maintain huge military expenditures to protect themselves from invasion of fascistic and capitalistic institutions.
How does The Venus Project Compare with Communism?

Communism being similar to a resource-based economy or The Venus Project is an erroneous concept. Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders. The Venus Project's aim is to surpass the need for the use of money. Police, prisons and the military would no longer be necessary when goods, services, healthcare, and education are available to all people. The Venus Project would replace politicians with a cybernated society in which all of the physical entities are managed and operated by computerized systems. The only region that the computers do not operate or manage is the surveillance of human beings. This would be completely unnecessary and considered socially offensive. A society that uses technology without human concern has no basis of survival. Communism has no blueprint or methodology to carry out their ideals and along with capitalism, fascism, and socialism, will ultimately go down in history as failed social experiments.
How does this system differ from Marxism, besides the technological use?

One of Communism's concerns is the condition of labor and the working class. The Venus Project's major concerns are producing products with limited labor and eventually eliminating labor and at the same time giving people all the amenities of a prosperous, high energy society. It is not our aim to produce a society that does nothing but enjoy leisure time. Instead people will be introduced to limitless opportunities to explore, create, participate, and learn.
How does this differ from Communism?

While communism is a much more humane social system than what we have today, we feel it does differ considerably from the direction we advocate. While Marx offered a bold new direction in his time, it falls far short of what can be accomplished with today's technology applied with human and environmental concern.

The Venus Project offers science and technology in the service of humankind on a global scale and eventually helps to eliminate all the artificial boundaries that separate people. The system uses no money and makes goods and services available without a price tag, debt, barter, or servitude of any kind. If we use our technology intelligently, we can create an abundance of goods and services for the entire planet. We use machines and automation to produce and distribute all manufactured products, which will be available at distribution centers to everyone. The purpose of this high technology is to free people so they can pursue their own interests and fulfillments.

We would surpass the need for human participation in the production of goods and services. There is no taxation or obligation of any kind. We advocate no government by human systems. They have always proved inadequate. Computerized systems and cybernetics would be applied to the social system and must comply with the carrying capacity of our global resources. The machines' main purpose is for the manufacturing and distribution of goods and services while maintaining a clean environment with service to all and profits to none. When people have access to resources, most crimes will disappear. The need for police, military, and prisons will eventually vanish with it. Of course this will coincide with the necessary changes in education. I hope this helps to clarify some points. We realize this is a simplified description of how it differs from communism.It's essentially a Utopian movement that seems to attract conspiracy theorists and 9/11 truthers (probably because Peter Joseph himself promotes these). And from reading the above it's clear they have no idea what Communism is nor do they really have any revolutionary ideas or strategy.

[GPDP]

From the above, I'm inclined to call intellectual dishonesty rather than ignorance about what communism is. The first two paragraphs basically apply "really-existing socialism," call it communism, and imply it's what Marx intended, but the later two paragraphs actually kind of give a nod to what communism is all about, which demonstrates to me they do know what real communism is. So why do they take the so-called "communist" states of the past at face value? Because it helps promote their project and agenda as an alternative.

They basically say "oh, communism is actually pretty damn good," and they shower praise upon Marx's brilliance, but then they turn around and say it's actually the same damn shit under a different name. But no, not OUR project! Our ideas are fresh and innovative and totally never advocated by any communist ever!

[∞]

Essentially the world they describe is plainly just communism. The difference between them and us is that we try to figure out how to achieve that, whereas they make dozens of youtube videos about the Venus Project.

[chuy]

I just ran into a proponent of TVP this evening at a local Occupy protest. I'd never heard of TVP before. When I asked what the gist of TVP was he told me it was a society of a "resource-based economy". I was a little confused b/c I was under the impression that's what an 'economy' essentially is, i.e., the production and distribution of a societies resources. So my question was what then would distinguish the production & allocation of a TVP's society's resources from any other. He didn't have a chance to explain any further b/c our conversation was interrupted, but after reading through this thread I think the picture on TVP is starting to fill itself in for me. In terms of economy it sounds like communism to me.
Although, am I off on my understanding of 'economy'?