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Baseball
7th October 2011, 14:32
Socialists downplay the role of the capitalist in production. They say at best their role is no better than the role of the worker who actually builds the product. At worse, the capitalist siphons off the wealth the worker creates stifles productivity development, and uses unneeded scarcity so as to maximize profit.

Does Steve Jobs deserve the lionization he has been receiving?

Ned Kelly
7th October 2011, 14:34
Don't thank Steve Jobs, thank his engineers and designers and the little Chinese boy who assembled your iPad

RGacky3
7th October 2011, 14:40
Socialists downplay the role of the capitalist in production. They say at best their role is no better than the role of the worker who actually builds the product. At worse, the capitalist siphons off the wealth the worker creates stifles productivity development, and uses unneeded scarcity so as to maximize profit.

Does Steve Jobs deserve the lionization he has been receiving?


We don't downplay their role, the role of euntreprenours (not capitalists), we vavlue the roles of entreprenours and think they should be compensated accordingly, which they probably would be democratically by the workers.

I'm sure Steve Jobs was a very smart guy, but not smart enough to deserve the huge proportion of wealth he syphoned from apple.

Revolutionair
7th October 2011, 14:46
A capitalist can be the smartest person you know. They can make all the right decisions needed to maximize revenue and profits, but that still would not tell you where that value comes from.


Socialists downplay the role of the capitalist in production.
I disagree. I think others exaggerate the role of the capitalist in the VALUE-MAKING PROCESS. Outside of that process however: I think Marx said that the capitalist class is the most revolutionary class in the histroy of mankind because they keep re-inventing their own mode of production.

You are dealing with two seperate questions here, and you treat them as one.

Commissar Rykov
7th October 2011, 14:53
I didn't know Steve Jobs assembled all those iPads, Macbooks, and iPods! Truly he is a hero of capitalism. Jobs hasn't done fuck for the longest time other than approving exploitation of Chinese Workers while increasing profits by selling his trendy wanker electronics. I am more disturbed by the fact that the media acts like Steve Jobs deep inside his Batcave came up with every innovation ever developed by Apple.

graymouser
7th October 2011, 15:29
Speaking as a worker in the code mines (i.e. writing software for a living), Steve Jobs was a popularizer and not a creator. His contribution was to market - to sell computer kits and then assembled computers when everything was hobbyists playing around on Altairs, to actually try and make money on the mouse and WYSIWYG software invented by Xerox PARC - LISA and Macintosh, which failed initially. Much later Jobs came back and did the same thing: it's not like mp3 players or music stores were new, he just streamlined and marketed them. Same with smartphones. Same with tablet PCs which have been around for a decade and a half.

Jobs was a slick marketer, with an eye for attractive technology. I'm not gonna lie, I have a MacBook Pro and an iPod. But if he had any moral courage he would've stood up against sweatshop practices. Instead he went along with them and reaped megabucks.

Rodrigo
7th October 2011, 15:40
Fuck off Steve Jobs.

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-04/bz_apple?currentPage=all

One Infinite Loop, Apple's street address, is a programming in-joke — it refers to a routine that never ends. But it is also an apt description of the travails of parking at the Cupertino, California, campus. Like most things in Silicon Valley, Apple's lots are egalitarian; there are no reserved spots for managers or higher-ups. Even if you're a Porsche-driving senior executive, if you arrive after 10 am, you should be prepared to circle the lot endlessly, hunting for a space.
But there is one Mercedes that doesn't need to search for very long, and it belongs to Steve Jobs. If there's no easy-to-find spot and he's in a hurry, Jobs has been known to pull up to Apple's front entrance and park in a handicapped space. (Sometimes he takes up two spaces.) It's become a piece of Apple lore — and a running gag at the company. Employees have stuck notes under his windshield wiper: "Park Different." They have also converted the minimalist wheelchair symbol on the pavement into a Mercedes logo.
Jobs' fabled attitude toward parking reflects his approach to business: For him, the regular rules do not apply. Everybody is familiar with Google's famous catchphrase, "Don't be evil." It has become a shorthand mission statement for Silicon Valley, encompassing a variety of ideals that — proponents say — are good for business and good for the world: Embrace open platforms. Trust decisions to the wisdom of crowds. Treat your employees like gods.
It's ironic, then, that one of the Valley's most successful companies ignored all of these tenets. Google and Apple may have a friendly relationship — Google CEO Eric Schmidt sits on Apple's board, after all — but by Google's definition, Apple is irredeemably evil, behaving more like an old-fashioned industrial titan than a different-thinking business of the future. Apple operates with a level of secrecy that makes Thomas Pynchon look like Paris Hilton. It locks consumers into a proprietary ecosystem. And as for treating employees like gods? Yeah, Apple doesn't do that either.
But by deliberately flouting the Google mantra, Apple has thrived. When Jobs retook the helm in 1997, the company was struggling to survive. Today it has a market cap of $105 billion, placing it ahead of Dell and behind Intel. Its iPod commands 70 percent of the MP3 player market. Four billion songs have been purchased from iTunes. The iPhone is reshaping the entire wireless industry. Even the underdog Mac operating system has begun to nibble into Windows' once-unassailable dominance; last year, its share of the US market topped 6 percent, more than double its portion in 2003.
It's hard to see how any of this would have happened had Jobs hewed to the standard touchy-feely philosophies of Silicon Valley. Apple creates must-have products the old-fashioned way: by locking the doors and sweating and bleeding until something emerges perfectly formed. It's hard to see the Mac OS and the iPhone coming out of the same design-by-committee process that produced Microsoft Vista or Dell's Pocket DJ music player. Likewise, had Apple opened its iTunes-iPod juggernaut to outside developers, the company would have risked turning its uniquely integrated service into a hodgepodge of independent applications — kind of like the rest of the Internet, come to think of it.
And now observers, academics, and even some other companies are taking notes. Because while Apple's tactics may seem like Industrial Revolution relics, they've helped the company position itself ahead of its competitors and at the forefront of the tech industry. Sometimes, evil works.
Over the past 100 years, management theory has followed a smooth trajectory, from enslavement to empowerment. The 20th century began with Taylorism — engineer Frederick Winslow Taylor's notion that workers are interchangeable cogs — but with every decade came a new philosophy, each advocating that more power be passed down the chain of command to division managers, group leaders, and workers themselves. In 1977, Robert Greenleaf's Servant Leadership argued that CEOs should think of themselves as slaves to their workers and focus on keeping them happy.
Silicon Valley has always been at the forefront of this kind of egalitarianism. In the 1940s, Bill Hewlett and David Packard pioneered what business author Tom Peters dubbed "managing by walking around," an approach that encouraged executives to communicate informally with their employees. In the 1990s, Intel's executives expressed solidarity with the engineers by renouncing their swanky corner offices in favor of standard-issue cubicles. And today, if Google hasn't made itself a Greenleaf-esque slave to its employees, it's at least a cruise director: The Mountain View campus is famous for its perks, including in-house masseuses, roller-hockey games, and a cafeteria where employees gobble gourmet vittles for free. What's more, Google's engineers have unprecedented autonomy; they choose which projects they work on and whom they work with. And they are encouraged to allot 20 percent of their work week to pursuing their own software ideas. The result? Products like Gmail and Google News, which began as personal endeavors.
Jobs, by contrast, is a notorious micromanager. No product escapes Cupertino without meeting Jobs' exacting standards, which are said to cover such esoteric details as the number of screws on the bottom of a laptop and the curve of a monitor's corners. "He would scrutinize everything, down to the pixel level," says Cordell Ratzlaff, a former manager charged with creating the OS X interface.
At most companies, the red-faced, tyrannical boss is an outdated archetype, a caricature from the life of Dagwood. Not at Apple. Whereas the rest of the tech industry may motivate employees with carrots, Jobs is known as an inveterate stick man. Even the most favored employee could find themselves on the receiving end of a tirade. Insiders have a term for it: the "hero-shithead roller coaster." Says Edward Eigerman, a former Apple engineer, "More than anywhere else I've worked before or since, there's a lot of concern about being fired."
But Jobs' employees remain devoted. That's because his autocracy is balanced by his famous charisma — he can make the task of designing a power supply feel like a mission from God. Andy Hertzfeld, lead designer of the original Macintosh OS, says Jobs imbued him and his coworkers with "messianic zeal." And because Jobs' approval is so hard to win, Apple staffers labor tirelessly to please him. "He has the ability to pull the best out of people," says Ratzlaff, who worked closely with Jobs on OS X for 18 months. "I learned a tremendous amount from him."
Apple's successes in the years since Jobs' return — iMac, iPod, iPhone — suggest an alternate vision to the worker-is-always-right school of management. In Cupertino, innovation doesn't come from coddling employees and collecting whatever froth rises to the surface; it is the product of an intense, hard-fought process, where people's feelings are irrelevant. Some management theorists are coming around to Apple's way of thinking. "A certain type of forcefulness and perseverance is sometimes helpful when tackling large, intractable problems," says Roderick Kramer, a social psychologist at Stanford who wrote an appreciation of "great intimidators" — including Jobs — for the February 2006 Harvard Business Review.
Likewise, Robert Sutton's 2007 book, The No Asshole Rule, spoke out against workplace tyrants but made an exception for Jobs: "He inspires astounding effort and creativity from his people," Sutton wrote. A Silicon Valley insider once told Sutton that he had seen Jobs demean many people and make some of them cry. But, the insider added, "He was almost always right."
"Steve proves that it's OK to be an asshole," says Guy Kawasaki, Apple's former chief evangelist. "I can't relate to the way he does things, but it's not his problem. It's mine. He just has a different OS."
Nicholas Ciarelli created Think Secret — a Web site devoted to exposing Apple's covert product plans — when he was 13 years old, a seventh grader at Cazenovia Junior-Senior High School in central New York. He stuck with it for 10 years, publishing some legitimate scoops (he predicted the introduction of a new titanium PowerBook, the iPod shuffle, and the Mac mini) and some embarrassing misfires (he reported that the iPod mini would sell for $100; it actually went for $249) for a growing audience of Apple enthusiasts. When he left for Harvard, Ciarelli kept the site up and continued to pull in ad revenue. At heart, though, Think Secret wasn't a financial enterprise but a personal obsession. "I was a huge enthusiast," Ciarelli says. "One of my birthday cakes had an Apple logo on it."
Most companies would pay millions of dollars for that kind of attention — an army of fans so eager to buy your stuff that they can't wait for official announcements to learn about the newest products. But not Apple. Over the course of his run, Ciarelli received dozens of cease-and-desist letters from the object of his affection, charging him with everything from copyright infringement to disclosing trade secrets. In January 2005, Apple filed a lawsuit against Ciarelli, accusing him of illegally soliciting trade secrets from its employees. Two years later, in December 2007, Ciarelli settled with Apple, shutting down his site two months later. (He and Apple agreed to keep the settlement terms confidential.)
Apple's secrecy may not seem out of place in Silicon Valley, land of the nondisclosure agreement, where algorithms are protected with the same zeal as missile launch codes. But in recent years, the tech industry has come to embrace candor. Microsoft — once the epitome of the faceless megalith — has softened its public image by encouraging employees to create no-holds-barred blogs, which share details of upcoming projects and even criticize the company. Sun Microsystems CEO Jonathan Schwartz has used his widely read blog to announce layoffs, explain strategy, and defend acquisitions.
"Openness facilitates a genuine conversation, and often collaboration, toward a shared outcome," says Steve Rubel, a senior vice president at the PR firm Edelman Digital. "When people feel like they're on your side, it increases their trust in you. And trust drives sales."
In an April 2007 cover story, we at Wired dubbed this tactic "radical transparency." But Apple takes a different approach to its public relations. Call it radical opacity. Apple's relationship with the press is dismissive at best, adversarial at worst; Jobs himself speaks only to a handpicked batch of reporters, and only when he deems it necessary. (He declined to talk to Wired for this article.) Forget corporate blogs — Apple doesn't seem to like anyone blogging about the company. And Apple appears to revel in obfuscation. For years, Jobs dismissed the idea of adding video capability to the iPod. "We want it to make toast," he quipped sarcastically at a 2004 press conference. "We're toying with refrigeration, too." A year later, he unveiled the fifth-generation iPod, complete with video. Jobs similarly disavowed the suggestion that he might move the Mac to Intel chips or release a software developers' kit for the iPhone — only months before announcing his intentions to do just that.
Even Apple employees often have no idea what their own company is up to. Workers' electronic security badges are programmed to restrict access to various areas of the campus. (Signs warning NO TAILGATING are posted on doors to discourage the curious from sneaking into off-limit areas.) Software and hardware designers are housed in separate buildings and kept from seeing each other's work, so neither gets a complete sense of the project. "We have cells, like a terrorist organization," Jon Rubinstein, former head of Apple's hardware and iPod divisions and now executive chair at Palm, told BusinessWeek in 2000.
At times, Apple's secrecy approaches paranoia. Talking to outsiders is forbidden; employees are warned against telling their families what they are working on. (Phil Schiller, Apple's marketing chief, once told Fortune magazine he couldn't share the release date of a new iPod with his own son.) Even Jobs is subject to his own strictures. He took home a prototype of Apple's boom box, the iPod Hi-Fi, but kept it concealed under a cloth.
But Apple's radical opacity hasn't hurt the company — rather, the approach has been critical to its success, allowing the company to attack new product categories and grab market share before competitors wake up. It took Apple nearly three years to develop the iPhone in secret; that was a three-year head start on rivals. Likewise, while there are dozens of iPod knockoffs, they have hit the market just as Apple has rendered them obsolete. For example, Microsoft introduced the Zune 2, with its iPod-like touch-sensitive scroll wheel, in October 2007, a month after Apple announced it was moving toward a new interface for the iPod touch. Apple has been known to poke fun at its rivals' catch-up strategies. The company announced Tiger, an upgrade to its operating system, with posters taunting, REDMOND, START YOUR PHOTOCOPIERS.1 (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-04/bz_apple?currentPage=all#corrections)
Secrecy has also served Apple's marketing efforts well, building up feverish anticipation for every announcement. In the weeks before Macworld Expo, Apple's annual trade show, the tech media is filled with predictions about what product Jobs will unveil in his keynote address. Consumer-tech Web sites liveblog the speech as it happens, generating their biggest traffic of the year. And the next day, practically every media outlet covers the announcements. Harvard business professor David Yoffie has said that the introduction of the iPhone resulted in headlines worth $400 million in advertising.
But Jobs' tactics also carry risks — especially when his announcements don't live up to the lofty expectations that come with such secrecy. The MacBook Air received a mixed response after some fans — who were hoping for a touchscreen-enabled tablet PC — deemed the slim-but-pricey subnotebook insufficiently revolutionary. Fans have a nickname for the aftermath of a disappointing event: post-Macworld depression.
Still, Apple's radical opacity has, on the whole, been a rousing success — and it's a tactic that most competitors can't mimic. Intel and Microsoft, for instance, sell their chips and software through partnerships with PC companies; they publish product road maps months in advance so their partners can create the machines to use them. Console makers like Sony and Microsoft work hand in hand with developers so they can announce a full roster of games when their PlayStations and Xboxes launch. But because Apple creates all of the hardware and software in-house, it can keep those products under wraps. Fundamentally the company bears more resemblance to an old-school industrial manufacturer like General Motors than to the typical tech firm.
In fact, part of the joy of being an Apple customer is anticipating the surprises that Santa Steve brings at Macworld Expo every January. Ciarelli is still eager to find out what's coming next — even if he can't write about it. "I wish they hadn't sued me," he says, "but I'm still a fan of their products."
Back in the mid-1990s, as Apple struggled to increase its share of the PC market, every analyst with a Bloomberg terminal was quick to diagnose the cause of the computermaker's failure: Apple waited too long to license its operating system to outside hardware makers. In other words, it tried for too long to control the entire computing experience. Microsoft, Apple's rival to the north, dominated by encouraging computer manufacturers to build their offerings around its software. Sure, that strategy could result in an inferior user experience and lots of cut-rate Wintel machines, but it also gave Microsoft a stranglehold on the software market. Even Wired joined the fray; in June 1997, we told Apple, "You shoulda licensed your OS in 1987" and advised, "Admit it. You're out of the hardware game."
Oops.
When Jobs returned to Apple in 1997, he ignored everyone's advice and tied his company's proprietary software to its proprietary hardware. He has held to that strategy over the years, even as his Silicon Valley cohorts have embraced the values of openness and interoperability. Android, Google's operating system for mobile phones, is designed to work on any participating handset. Last year, Amazon.com began selling DRM-free songs that can be played on any MP3 player. Even Microsoft has begun to embrace the movement toward Web-based applications, software that runs on any platform.
Not Apple. Want to hear your iTunes songs on the go? You're locked into playing them on your iPod. Want to run OS X? Buy a Mac. Want to play movies from your iPod on your TV? You've got to buy a special Apple-branded connector ($49). Only one wireless carrier would give Jobs free rein to design software and features for his handset, which is why anyone who wants an iPhone must sign up for service with AT&T.
During the early days of the PC, the entire computer industry was like Apple — companies such as Osborne and Amiga built software that worked only on their own machines. Now Apple is the one vertically integrated company left, a fact that makes Jobs proud. "Apple is the last company in our industry that creates the whole widget," he once told a Macworld crowd.
But not everyone sees Apple's all-or-nothing approach in such benign terms. The music and film industries, in particular, worry that Jobs has become a gatekeeper for all digital content. Doug Morris, CEO of Universal Music, has accused iTunes of leaving labels powerless to negotiate with it. (Ironically, it was the labels themselves that insisted on the DRM that confines iTunes purchases to the iPod, and that they now protest.) "Apple has destroyed the music business," NBC Universal chief Jeff Zucker told an audience at Syracuse University. "If we don't take control on the video side, [they'll] do the same." At a media business conference held during the early days of the Hollywood writers' strike, Michael Eisner argued that Apple was the union's real enemy: "[The studios] make deals with Steve Jobs, who takes them to the cleaners. They make all these kinds of things, and who's making money? Apple!"
Meanwhile, Jobs' insistence on the sanctity of his machines has affronted some of his biggest fans. In September, Apple released its first upgrade to the iPhone operating system. But the new software had a pernicious side effect: It would brick, or disable, many phones, especially those containing unapproved applications.2 (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-04/bz_apple?currentPage=all#corrections) The blogosphere erupted in protest; gadget blog Gizmodo even wrote a new review of the iPhone, reranking it a "don't buy." Last year, Jobs announced he would open up the iPhone so that independent developers could create applications for it, but only through an official process that gives Apple final approval of every application.
For all the protests, consumers don't seem to mind Apple's walled garden. In fact, they're clamoring to get in. Yes, the iPod hardware and the iTunes software are inextricably linked — that's why they work so well together. And now, PC-based iPod users, impressed with the experience, have started converting to Macs, further investing themselves in the Apple ecosystem.
Some Apple competitors have tried to emulate its tactics. Microsoft's MP3 strategy used to be like its mobile strategy — license its software to (almost) all comers. Not any more: The operating system for Microsoft's Zune player is designed uniquely for the device, mimicking the iPod's vertical integration. Amazon's Kindle e-reader provides seamless access to a proprietary selection of downloadable books, much as the iTunes Music Store provides direct access to an Apple-curated storefront. And the Nintendo Wii, the Sony PlayStation 3, and the Xbox360 each offer users access to self-contained online marketplaces for downloading games and special features.
Tim O'Reilly, publisher of the O'Reilly Radar blog and an organizer of the Web 2.0 Summit, says that these "three-tiered systems" — that blend hardware, installed software, and proprietary Web applications — represent the future of the Net. As consumers increasingly access the Web using scaled-down appliances like mobile phones and Kindle readers, they will demand applications that are tailored to work with those devices. True, such systems could theoretically be open, with any developer allowed to throw its own applications and services into the mix. But for now, the best three-tier systems are closed. And Apple, O'Reilly says, is the only company that "really understands how to build apps for a three-tiered system."
If Apple represents the shiny, happy future of the tech industry, it also looks a lot like our cat-o'-nine-tails past. In part, that's because the tech business itself more and more resembles an old-line consumer industry. When hardware and software makers were focused on winning business clients, price and interoperability were more important than the user experience. But now that consumers make up the most profitable market segment, usability and design have become priorities. Customers expect a reliable and intuitive experience — just like they do with any other consumer product.
All this plays to Steve Jobs' strengths. No other company has proven as adept at giving customers what they want before they know they want it. Undoubtedly, this is due to Jobs' unique creative vision. But it's also a function of his management practices. By exerting unrelenting control over his employees, his image, and even his customers, Jobs exerts unrelenting control over his products and how they're used. And in a consumer-focused tech industry, the products are what matter. "Everything that's happening is playing to his values," says Geoffrey Moore, author of the marketing tome Crossing the Chasm. "He's at the absolute epicenter of the digitization of life. He's totally in the zone."
Leander Kahney ([email protected]), news editor of Wired.com, is the author of Inside Steve's Brain (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591841984?tag=cultofmac-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=1591841984&adid=1NMV8DGH7DE289MZW4NP&), to be published in April by Penguin Portfolio.


http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-9852738-52.html

If you want to look at how the personalities of Apple's two co-founders, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, differ, perhaps one way would be to measure their responses when asked to pose for pictures.
Let's start with Woz. Though he claims to have been acutely shy in his early life, these days Woz is a social butterfly. He shows up at tech event after tech event in Silicon Valley, such as the 30th anniversary of Apple (http://news.cnet.com/Woz-highlights-celebration-of-Apples-history/2100-1042_3-6132644.html), or the 25th anniversary of the Commodore 64, and is almost eager to glad-hand anyone who comes by. Want a picture of you and Woz? Get in line.
Now, let's examine Jobs. Everyone knows he is one of the greatest business and technology visionaries in history. Onstage, say, at Macworld, he has a bright smile and an extremely charismatic and engaging manner. He looks like he'd be fun to talk to. Yet his reputation is for managing by fear and for having little patience for the public.
At Macworld Wednesday, popular technology and sex columnist Violet Blue wrote that she saw Jobs on the show floor and decided to go talk to him.
"I saw that Steve Jobs was just hanging out on the Macworld Expo floor, not in conversation, not talking to anyone, and poking at his iPhone (http://reviews.cnet.com/iphone/) in the middle of the wandering public, so I walked over," Blue wrote (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/01/17/violetblue.DTL) on her SFGate.com Open Source Sex blog Thursday. "Thinking a girl--in this case, a fangirl, me--will never get anything if she doesn't ask for it, I lightly touched his arm and said, 'Hi.' He looked at me, and I blushingly asked if it would be OK for me to take a picture with him. I didn't say my name or give credentials or anything else, I was just any girl. He told me curtly, flatly, that I was rude. And turned his back to me."
Moments later, Robert Scoble caught up with Blue and filmed her reaction (http://www.qik.com/video/8984) to the snubbing.
Blue, of course, does not fill in the contextual blanks that might explain whether Jobs was having a bad day, was in the middle of an IM conversation with someone, or anything else. But is anyone really surprised that Jobs would so abruptly snub a fan, even at Macworld? I'm not.
In fact, Jobs is able to maintain his so-called "reality distortion field" in part because he is above us all. We can't engage him in conversation the way we can with Woz. Want to talk to Woz about his favorite video game (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-9832348-52.html)? Go ask him. Want to ask Jobs a question about, well, anything? Good luck getting through his phalanx of PR people.
You might think that I love to bash Jobs and Apple since I'm writing this. In fact, between my wife and me, we personally have four Macs, two iPods, a couple of AirPorts and, oh, I'm sure there must be more. I had my religious conversion from Windows to Mac (http://www.cnet.com/apple-mac.html) nearly four years ago. And I'll be the first to grant that Jobs towers above anyone else in tech when it comes to imagination and understanding what his customers want.
But boy, is the man cold-hearted. What does he expect to happen if he walks the floor at Macworld? He's surrounded by the most fan-boy of the fan-boys. He's going to get approached, swarmed even. If he doesn't want to be, then he shouldn't be on the floor.

La Comédie Noire
7th October 2011, 15:57
Well labor, both intellectual and physical, is a social practice. Usually great innovators and inventors are in the right place at the right time, at the end of a chain of innovation or the "cutting edge" as they call it. I don't have a problem with Steve Job's prestige, he deserves that for being one of the first to see the implications of a friendly user interface, but because we accumulate individually he got a reward that was disproportionate to his efforts. Not that he got "rewarded" for anything, he got his cut from the surplus labor of the working class.

Nox
7th October 2011, 16:04
Does Steve Jobs deserve the lionization he has been receiving?

No, because Macs are shit!

Ballyfornia
7th October 2011, 16:09
Steve Jobs to rise on the Third.

Kornilios Sunshine
7th October 2011, 16:24
Hey, it is not something happy hearing someones death.Steve Jobs had the idea,but if it was not about the workers who worked like shithead for months, Steve Jobs would have been out in the road asking for money.People always thank Steve Jobs and neglect the fact that the workers built up his ideas.

Zealot
7th October 2011, 16:45
He was a good salesman and that's about it. Even when apple first started, as far as I know, it was Steve Wozniak who was the brains behind everything not Steve Jobs. We aren't downplaying anything, we're highlighting the fact that capitalists like Steve Jobs exploited workers on a mass scale.

#FF0000
7th October 2011, 16:58
http://i.imgur.com/YVyiP.jpg
Nah

scarletghoul
7th October 2011, 17:16
i hope if theres an afterlife he goes to the same place as all the workers who committed suicide due to his drive to accumulate capital.

scarletghoul
7th October 2011, 17:17
No, because Macs are shit!this too actually

Valdemar
7th October 2011, 17:28
I think its crazy, people die all the time, no one gives a *thing. Some rich guy dies who made some consumerist thing and earned millions is suddenly moruned and iconized. He is all over the news, they say he made our lifes better? easier? and such nonsense...people on shitbook write about him as messiah...collective madness. Glad to see on this forum people who think differently.

He did exploit workers, indirectly as far i know (via FoxxConn) he, exploited cheap labour and he knew it. He does not deserve the praise at all...to get to the begining, to make circle complete, he died, people die, people die every day...

#FF0000
7th October 2011, 17:34
he died, people die, people die every day...

this is a dumb position to take. people can mourn the death of people they don't know.

CommunityBeliever
7th October 2011, 17:46
You know what? Fuck Steve Jobs. His companies' hardware products were assembled by Chinese and its software was based upon artificial scarcity and DRM, that is they were immanently deficient.

tfb
7th October 2011, 17:47
The story behind Breakout sums it all up:

Alcorn assigned Steve Jobs to design a prototype. Jobs was offered US$750, with an extra $100 each time a chip was eliminated from the prospected design. Jobs promised to complete a prototype within four days.
Jobs noticed his friend Steve Wozniak—employee of Hewlett-Packard—was capable of producing designs with a small number of chips, and invited him to work on the hardware design with the prospect of splitting the $750 wage. Wozniak had no sketches and instead interpreted the game from its description. To save parts, he had "tricky little designs" difficult to understand for most engineers. Near the end of development, Wozniak considered moving the high score to the screen's top, but Jobs claimed Bushnell wanted it at the bottom; Wozniak was unaware of any truth to his claims. The original deadline was met after Wozniak did not sleep for four days straight. In the end 50 chips were removed from Jobs' original design. This equated to a US$5,000 bonus, which Jobs kept secret from Wozniak, instead only paying him $375.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

Nox
7th October 2011, 18:27
The story behind Breakout sums it all up:

Alcorn assigned Steve Jobs to design a prototype. Jobs was offered US$750, with an extra $100 each time a chip was eliminated from the prospected design. Jobs promised to complete a prototype within four days.
Jobs noticed his friend Steve Wozniak—employee of Hewlett-Packard—was capable of producing designs with a small number of chips, and invited him to work on the hardware design with the prospect of splitting the $750 wage. Wozniak had no sketches and instead interpreted the game from its description. To save parts, he had "tricky little designs" difficult to understand for most engineers. Near the end of development, Wozniak considered moving the high score to the screen's top, but Jobs claimed Bushnell wanted it at the bottom; Wozniak was unaware of any truth to his claims. The original deadline was met after Wozniak did not sleep for four days straight. In the end 50 chips were removed from Jobs' original design. This equated to a US$5,000 bonus, which Jobs kept secret from Wozniak, instead only paying him $375.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

Wow, I actually feel sorry for the bourgeois who was lied to by the other bourgeois.

Commissar Rykov
7th October 2011, 18:39
Wow, I actually feel sorry for the bourgeois who was lied to by the other bourgeois.
Reminds me of my favorite line from Aliens, "At least you don't see them fucking each other over.":lol:

Per Levy
7th October 2011, 19:08
The story behind Breakout sums it all up:

Alcorn assigned Steve Jobs to design a prototype. Jobs was offered US$750, with an extra $100 each time a chip was eliminated from the prospected design. Jobs promised to complete a prototype within four days.
Jobs noticed his friend Steve Wozniak—employee of Hewlett-Packard—was capable of producing designs with a small number of chips, and invited him to work on the hardware design with the prospect of splitting the $750 wage. Wozniak had no sketches and instead interpreted the game from its description. To save parts, he had "tricky little designs" difficult to understand for most engineers. Near the end of development, Wozniak considered moving the high score to the screen's top, but Jobs claimed Bushnell wanted it at the bottom; Wozniak was unaware of any truth to his claims. The original deadline was met after Wozniak did not sleep for four days straight. In the end 50 chips were removed from Jobs' original design. This equated to a US$5,000 bonus, which Jobs kept secret from Wozniak, instead only paying him $375.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

wow what an asshole, and here is the link to the wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakout_%28video_game%29#History_and_development

i think the familys, of the chinese workers that comitted suicide because of the terrible working conditions in ipo/ad factories, wont shead a tear for jobs, and i wont either.

ComradeMan
7th October 2011, 20:48
Don't thank Steve Jobs, thank his engineers and designers and the little Chinese boy who assembled your iPad

Yeah and without Steve Jobs (RIP) it could be argued they wouldn't have a job... Also take it up with the fucking Commie Party of China who allow this to go on while pretending to be revolutionaries....

Anyway, the man has died- whatever our opinion of him as a man, let's at least have some descency with respect to the dead.

Nox
7th October 2011, 20:50
Yeah and without Steve Jobs (RIP) they wouldn't have a job...

Anyway, the man has died- whatever our opinion of him as a man, let's at least have some descency with respect to the dead.

That's a piss poor excuse rofl

ComradeMan
7th October 2011, 20:53
That's a piss poor excuse rofl

Well produce a "Communist" Mac-book or stop with the whining....

I am get fed up of this "Ivory Tower" Left that just sits and moralises and pontificates without actually doing nothing itself other than argue about inane obscure stuff or attack soft targets like religion.

graymouser
7th October 2011, 21:13
Yeah and without Steve Jobs (RIP) it could be argued they wouldn't have a job...
Without wealth stolen from workers Steve Jobs wouldn't have been a billionaire. I already explained upthread that Jobs was not even an innovator, just a marketer. I grew up idolizing the Silicon Valley billionaires but got over it once I realized that the capitalist system didn't have anything like that on offer for 99.999% of us code monkeys.


Also take it up with the fucking Commie Party of China who allow this to go on while pretending to be revolutionaries....
Yeah, nobody here supports the CPC dude.


Anyway, the man has died- whatever our opinion of him as a man, let's at least have some descency with respect to the dead.
It's our opinions of the role he played in society, which is being trumpeted to the high heavens like he was a saint and a superman. I talked to a comrade last night who said that they didn't even make this big of a deal when John Lennon died.

Baseball
7th October 2011, 21:42
[QUOTE=RGacky3;2254774]We don't downplay their role, the role of euntreprenours (not capitalists),

Jobs was both.


we vavlue the roles of entreprenours and think they should be compensated accordingly, which they probably would be democratically by the workers.

OK. So the socialist community has no objection to the work Jobs did. It simply objects that the decision to produce IMACS, IPODS ect ect was not made "democratically" by the workers of Apple?


I'm sure Steve Jobs was a very smart guy, but not smart enough to deserve the huge proportion of wealth he syphoned from apple.

But didn't the wealth of Apple flow from the work of Jobs?

Baseball
7th October 2011, 21:44
[QUOTE=Revolutionair;2254779]A capitalist can be the smartest person you know. They can make all the right decisions needed to maximize revenue and profits, but that still would not tell you where that value comes from.

The value of the product would come from the consumers, reflected in its purchases and codified by the profits the firm accrued.




You are dealing with two seperate questions here, and you treat them as one.

How so?

aristos
7th October 2011, 21:45
Wow, I actually feel sorry for the bourgeois who was lied to by the other bourgeois.

A software engineer is not bourgeois, so don't engage in misplaced hatred.

The whole media circus around Steve Jobs, on the other hand, is truly disgusting.
Some even compare him to Tesla and Einstein. WTF!

Without engineers and factory line workers toiling for him Steve himself wouldn't have had any Jobs.

By the way I heard he was a Buddhist. It must be a consolation for all his workers to know his heart was overflowing with empathy towards them.

eric922
7th October 2011, 22:00
A software engineer is not bourgeois, so don't engage in misplaced hatred.

The whole media circus around Steve Jobs, on the other hand, is truly disgusting.
Some even compare him to Tesla and Einstein. WTF!

Without engineers and factory line workers toiling for him Steve himself wouldn't have had any Jobs.

By the way I heard he was a Buddhist. It must be a consolation for all his workers to know his heart was overflowing with empathy towards them.
I could start quoting various Buddhist texts that would show how hypocritical Jobs is, but I'm sure we all know how hypocritical he is. As someone who has been strongly influenced by Buddhism, I'm insulted to share a philosophy with Jobs. If reincarnation is true, his next life should really suck.

#FF0000
7th October 2011, 23:35
Some even compare him to Tesla and Einstein. WTF!

I think Edison would be a better comparison. A salesman lauded as a brilliant inventor

Zealot
7th October 2011, 23:37
Yeah and without Steve Jobs (RIP) it could be argued they wouldn't have a job...

Shittest bourgeois excuse I ever heard. Slave traders used to say that shit


Wow, I actually feel sorry for the bourgeois who was lied to by the other bourgeois.
Lmfao

#FF0000
8th October 2011, 00:54
Yeah and without Steve Jobs (RIP) it could be argued they wouldn't have a job...

Well shit I guess they should be thankful to live in rooms smaller and more spartan than most prison cells and work in conditions that were such that some of their co-workers decided it'd be better to kill themselves.


Anyway, the man has died- whatever our opinion of him as a man, let's at least have some descency with respect to the dead.

This I can almost agree with. I don't think a death should be celebrated but what I think we should be, at least, is honest. He hurt people to get where he was. He sacrificed the lives and well-being of others to make his billions. Of course if it weren't him, it'd be others, but that doesn't absolve him.

And it doesn't make me sorry for him.

Revolution starts with U
8th October 2011, 05:38
I thank too many posts so i cant negrep :lol:
I was going to negrep Comman for his "w/o jobs they wuldnt have jobs" insanity, even tho i thanked him for the rest of his post, which was good.

Seriously Comrade... I mean, seriously?

RGacky3
8th October 2011, 09:27
Jobs was both.


Sure, and his compensation should be A: democratically decided and B: based on his value as an entreprenour.


OK. So the socialist community has no objection to the work Jobs did. It simply objects that the decision to produce IMACS, IPODS ect ect was not made "democratically" by the workers of Apple?


Its more the allocation of the surplus and the fact that he profited from all the work while most of the workers did not.


But didn't the wealth of Apple flow from the work of Jobs?

Part of it did yes ...

ComradeMan
8th October 2011, 10:32
I thank too many posts so i cant negrep :lol:
I was going to negrep Comman for his "w/o jobs they wuldnt have jobs" insanity, even tho i thanked him for the rest of his post, which was good.

Seriously Comrade... I mean, seriously?

Okay, I was in a bad mood when I replied-

1) Perhaps it's different here, but there hasn't been a media circus as such- just the usual obituary type of news that reflects on careers and so on.

2) The guy has passed away of a horrible illness- let's show some humanity. If people are making him out to be a saint, well in my opinion that's silly but at the same time some here are making him out to be something equally as silly.

3) The point about the Chinese workers was the fact to say "wake up" this is the cynical capitalist world we live in.

We all know worker conditions in some places like China are bad- but they were bad in Europe during the industrial revolution- that's how unions and workers movements came about and gradually fought for workers' rights and so on. You have to look at the problem from 360 degrees.

Revolution starts with U
8th October 2011, 11:19
We are in full agreement

agnixie
8th October 2011, 17:07
You know what? Fuck Steve Jobs. His companies' hardware products were assembled by Chinese and its software was based upon artificial scarcity and DRM, that is they were immanently deficient.

OSX has no DRM, every major OEM subcontracts with Foxconn, etc.

The hypocrisy is annoying: if you want to heap on Apple for the conditions at Foxconn, just look the goddamn list of the people they do work for. Boycotting that means no cellphone (essential in many places), no laptop (as with cellphones, limited infrastructure in some parts tends to make laptops more attractive), no game console (I don't have one anymore but I figure enough people on here do), etc. They make everything, even Dell, which has its own factories in Malaysia, subcontracts its motherboard designs to Foxconn.

And yes, Jobs was a dick and his deification is mostly because of how he was as a communicator and a salesman.

Revolution starts with U
8th October 2011, 19:01
And yes, Jobs was a dick and his deification is mostly because of how he was as a communicator and a salesman.


At first I read "defication" :laugh:

Queercommie Girl
8th October 2011, 19:32
Steve Jobs isn't the worst of capitalists. The financial parasites on Wall Street, the arms dealers who become rich based on the wars of the Middle East, the oil barons who block progress in green technology, the mining companies in China that caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Chinese miners in the last decade, these capitalists are all more reactionary than Jobs is. "Being reactionary" is not just qualitative, it's also quantitative.

Apple is not directly responsible for the Foxconn suicides, nor is the CCP, but they are still indirectly responsible. The Taiwanese company Foxconn is directly responsible. Foxconn also works with companies other than Apple. But I completely agree that all this media hype around Jobs in the West is totally ridiculous. It's not like he was a really great technological innovator or anything anyway. He never invented anything original really. Apple products can be aesthetically pleasing, but technically speaking there is nothing really special about them. The iPhone and the iPad aren't necessarily better than similar products from other brands at all. So I really don't understand what the big deal about Apple is seriously.

PhoenixAsh
8th October 2011, 19:53
I simply do not care about Steve Jobs dying. What I mind is the 50+ facebook messages I get with people crying about the "loss of such a wonderful person" for three days straight now. Fuck that!

Cancer is horrible...I do not wish it on anybody.

But the fact of the matter is that Steve Jobs did nothing special and nothing somebody else could not have done. He was a cog at the top of the capitalist system and helped maintain that system and worked it over the backs of countless others in order to get filthy rich. If he hadn't done it somebody else would have.

I do not admire the man. I do not care he died. I do not care for the media hype around his death and I do not care about the deification of this character.

On the day he died thousands of others died. They were loved by their families or not and they worked their asses of to provide for their families...or not. They are IMo equally as important and unimportant as Steve Jobs.

All the attention is a complete waste of time and distracts from issues which at the moment are really important....we hardly hear about the tens of thousands of protesters rallying to call for better living conditions....but yet we give an incredible amount of air time and paper space to write about some capitalist who is part of that problem rather than a solution for society. His death is celebrated like some messias has died and the world somehow lost out.

You should wonder WHY that is. It is all part of the propaganda show.

THAT is all there is to it. That is all 360 degrees of it. It serves the purpose of the elite...

ComradeMan
8th October 2011, 22:37
I simply do not care about Steve Jobs dying.
Well, I'm sorry when I hear of anyone's premature death to be honest....

What I mind is the 50+ facebook messages I get with people crying about the "loss of such a wonderful person" for three days straight now. Fuck that!
Well, that's up to them. No one is forcing you to send a message or to read the pages in question, are they....?

and nothing somebody else could not have done.
... but they didn't do it though, and he did.;)

Love him or hate him, the guy had a great impact on the technological world we live in.

Let me just add... it seems, on investigation, that there is a big media circus going on in the US and it reminds me of the hysteria that was with the death of Princess Diana too- well, that's the media- we can't blame the deceased for that.

Robert
8th October 2011, 23:05
Revleft:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTyegsTJXVj3mM-Ak5Z0Q7cINmzkKvyLkUWTrtiSyQl05bvSHB2ew

aristos
8th October 2011, 23:11
So how does it feel sucking up to dead rich people?

Robert
9th October 2011, 00:19
It's awful! Give me sour grapes anytime.

aristos
9th October 2011, 01:06
You necrophiliac, you! :laugh:

Rafiq
9th October 2011, 02:40
We don't downplay their role, the role of euntreprenours (not capitalists), we vavlue the roles of entreprenours and think they should be compensated accordingly, which they probably would be democratically by the workers.

I'm sure Steve Jobs was a very smart guy, but not smart enough to deserve the huge proportion of wealth he syphoned from apple.



How absurd. This is at best Bourgreois apoligism. We oppose the capitalists in all colors and flavors. Steve jobbs was and died our class enemy. Fuck euntrepenuers, they are the same as capitalists.

Tablo
9th October 2011, 02:50
Yeah, fuck Jobs. I couldn't care less about him. He didn't make apple products, workers in China do that.

Revolution starts with U
9th October 2011, 02:58
How absurd. This is at best Bourgreois apoligism. We oppose the capitalists in all colors and flavors. Steve jobbs was and died our class enemy. Fuck euntrepenuers, they are the same as capitalists.

Often the entrepreneur is not the capitalist, Rafiq. Often he has to sell his labor, generating ideas, to a capitalist. Now, I admit, the entrepreneur sits on the border. But so do workers with pensions. Yet we still consider them working class.

There is absolutely no reason to forsake people that are good at coming up with ideas to make things cheaper and more efficient, and there is every reason to support them, insofar as their role of idea person is considered.

The problem, as I see it, with the entrepreneur under the capitalist system, is that once he pays his debts... in other words, pays the full sale price of his labor, generating ideas... he is often given an ownership position. And again, it more ownership that we oppose, rather than any given individual owner.

PhoenixAsh
9th October 2011, 06:37
Well, I'm sorry when I hear of anyone's premature death to be honest....

Well, that's up to them. No one is forcing you to send a message or to read the pages in question, are they....?

... but they didn't do it though, and he did.;)

Love him or hate him, the guy had a great impact on the technological world we live in.

Let me just add... it seems, on investigation, that there is a big media circus going on in the US and it reminds me of the hysteria that was with the death of Princess Diana too- well, that's the media- we can't blame the deceased for that.


Actually they kind of are. They post it and it appears on my wall...the disingenuous obnoxious hypocracy is hard to evade.

That said...my post wasn't directed at you or anybody in particular.

That the guy had cancer and died sucks for him and his family. But so does the exact same premature death of thousands of others. I know...I have been there didn't die. Did not market an iphone.

That the guy had some role in society is something I fully accept...but the media circus around his death is sickening. As I said..the guy was not a messias and he did not make this world a particularly better place.

His company did most of the work. He financed and managed that. He was not however a management or marketing guru. And need I remind you that most of their designs have been copied and/or stolen or at the very least were based on concepts which were already known or invented by somebody else than Steve Jobs?

If he hadn't done it we would still be at exactly the same place where we are now....only it would not have been called Mac, Apple or iphone.

The exact same thing goes for Diana....just as silly. Though that however was slightly warranted because it exposed the inner workings of the circus surrounding the royal family and the scheming and machinations surrounding it + the paparazzi. A lot of people were confronted with the facts. not that it changed anything. But it never does. The media hype around that had more function however than this deification of a dead marketing billionaire. Eventhough it was yet another illustration of how the media exploits situations for their own gain.

CommunityBeliever
9th October 2011, 07:19
OSX has no DRM

That isn't true. Mac OSX ported the app store concept to the iPad as well as the DRM functionality to prevent users from acquiring external media and applications, including in system components like iTunes and Quicktime.

http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/mac-osx-mistakes-and-malfeatures

In 2005, Apple made users install version 4.7 of iTunes in order to continue using the iTunes music store. This "upgrade" was billed by Apple as fixing a "security hole." What the update actually did was change the iTunes system of Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) to make PyMusique stop working. (See http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-03/22/content_2728356.htm and http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/22/apple_blocks_pymusique/.)

In 2008, Apple snuck a new DRM malfeature into Quicktime in an update advertised as adding a feature for renting movies. This malfeature stopped users from playing video files they themselves had made. (See http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/26/quicktime_drm_cripples_adobe_programs/.)

Mac OS is proprietary software, so the users don't have control over it -- rather, the developer has sole control over the program, and employs it as an instrument of control over the users.


Boycotting that means no cellphone (essential in many places), no laptop (as with cellphones, limited infrastructure in some parts tends to make laptops more attractive), no game console (I don't have one anymore but I figure enough people on here do), etc. They make everything, even Dell, which has its own factories in Malaysia, subcontracts its motherboard designs to Foxconn.

This is a site for revolutionary leftists not "boycotting" leftists, so it should be totally obvious I have nothing to do with the "boycotting" hypocrisy.


Love him or hate him, the guy had a great impact on the technological world we live in.

An great impact for the worse because his policies included the advancement of DRM malfeatures.

CommunityBeliever
9th October 2011, 09:53
I have created a separate thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/tyranny-apple-t162358/index.html) describing why Steve Jobs corporation - Apple - has actually made things worse for us.

RGacky3
9th October 2011, 10:25
How absurd. This is at best Bourgreois apoligism. We oppose the capitalists in all colors and flavors. Steve jobbs was and died our class enemy. Fuck euntrepenuers, they are the same as capitalists.

No they arn't and euntreprenour is just someone that comes up with a new idea. THere are plenty of entreprenours that start a buisiness that just end up being owned and controlled by a bank or capitalist, and euntreprenoir many times becomes a capitalist, but many times does not.

We arn't against people comming up with new ideas, we are against Capitalists controling the industries.

graymouser
9th October 2011, 15:08
No they arn't and euntreprenour is just someone that comes up with a new idea. THere are plenty of entreprenours that start a buisiness that just end up being owned and controlled by a bank or capitalist, and euntreprenoir many times becomes a capitalist, but many times does not.

We arn't against people comming up with new ideas, we are against Capitalists controling the industries.
The entrepreneurial model is one where the petty bourgeoisie is stuck in the position of taking all the risks (of bankruptcy, default and so on) of technological innovation while the bourgeoisie buys up the successful attempts and converts them into conventional capitalism. Occasionally the entrepreneur is elevated into the ranks of the ruling class; Jobs was an example of this, as was his partner, Wozniak, and their great competitors at Microsoft, Google and so on. But this is massively the exception and not the rule.

The computer world is littered with stories of almost-rans that illustrate how this model works. For instance, Dan Bricklin invented VisiCalc, which was the conceptual model of the spreadsheet, but it was Lotus and later Microsoft that made the mega-profits off of it. To say that the spreadsheet revolutionized accounting would be a tremendous understatement. (You should read a book by Joan Greenbaum called Windows on the Workplace that talks about the social processes and work relations being driven by computer innovation.) Or Gary Kildall's CP/M which was the direct model of what became MS-DOS, but Microsoft was willing to sell an OS for much less. The main difference? The primary drive on MS-DOS was identified as C: while the main drive on CP/M was A:. This is why any Windows computer has a C drive. The people with the ideas aren't the ones who become billionaires, the people who market the ideas are.

Jobs was a paragon of this. Everything he did involved putting a gloss on somoene else's ideas and selling them. This is something fundamentally wrong with capitalism. A better model, a model I think would be compatible with socialism, for software already exists: open source software. Imagine if we gave open source projects full public funding and distribution - imagine the possibilities! People already give away tremendous parts of their time for projects that they love, that could be their real jobs. Software and technology in general would be developed for public good, through massive collective projects. That is an alternative to what Jobs represented.

CommunityBeliever
9th October 2011, 15:31
magine if we gave open source projects full public funding and distribution - imagine the possibilities!

We should also extend that process to other fields (see open collaborative design (http://www.adciv.org/Open_collaborative_design)). Its truly disheartening this isn't happening today :(