How can we commies positively affect Occupy Wall Street? Is it hopeless?

[CynicalIdealist]

Main problems:

- Obsession with "money out of politics" as if that's a cure-all to capitalism
- Consensus democracy
- Little to no leadership
- Zero vision

How can we solve these problems?

Also, I've heard many people call for leadership but I'm wondering what the leadership of such a group would look like? I don't even really understand the purview of OWS.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I think just by being there and spreading our beliefs we can help but I think the only way to really get others on our side is to show up en mass and really be militant;take charge of the demonstration and show our natural leadership.

[RED DAVE]

I think just by being there and spreading our beliefs we can help but I think the only way to really get others on our side is to show up en mass and really be militant;take charge of the demonstration and show our natural leadership.Formula for making "communists" very unpopular and making sure that "we" don't get anywhere near becoming leaders.

RED DAVE

[Commissar Rykov]

Formula for making "communists" very unpopular and making sure that "we" don't get anywhere near becoming leaders.

RED DAVE
Agreed, just arriving and militzarizing an event that is meant to be peaceful seems a little silly. Militarizing a movement that at this moment has no real direction or class consciousness to the extent needed seems reckless and not well thought out. Education? Sure. Agitation? Sure. But militancy and making ourselves mini-dictators? Not so much.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Still better than doing nothing. *shrugs shoulders*

[#FF0000]

Still better than doing nothing. *shrugs shoulders*

Nah running in and being like THIS IS OUR SHOW LISTEN TO ME is dumb

[Commissar Rykov]

Still better than doing nothing. *shrugs shoulders*
Not if it sets us back and alienates people in the process. There are class conscious elements involved and we can use the time to educate but we shouldn't be ramming ourselves into situations that will alienate those looking for answers.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Join in, run your beliefs round anyone willing to listen, see how they take it.
A "better than nothing" approach must be close to nothing, else it become worse than nothing.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Not if it sets us back and alienates people in the process. There are class conscious elements involved and we can use the time to educate but we shouldn't be ramming ourselves into situations that will alienate those looking for answers.

What elements are class conscious?

[Commissar Rykov]

What elements are class conscious?
There are Communists and Anarchists of various different stripes already in these movements. Sure most of it is Liberal but there are Class Conscious elements involved. The Occupy Salt Lake City has people flying Black and Red Banners while marching around. I mean I never thought I would see that happening in Utah of all places but go fucking figure.

[Fawkes]

Main problems:

- Obsession with "money out of politics" as if that's a cure-all to capitalism
- Consensus democracy
- Little to no leadership
- Zero vision

How can we solve these problems?

Also, I've heard many people call for leadership but I'm wondering what the leadership of such a group would look like? I don't even really understand the purview of OWS.

What's wrong with consensus?

[OHumanista]

Just get involved with big numbers, but not trying to assume command of anything or bossing anyone around. We do our stuff, they like it they can hear more, otherwise they can stick to their "third" way ilusions for some extra time.

[CommunityBeliever]

This could be a good opportunity to educate people.

[Jose Gracchus]

Concensus is tacitly lending power to any organized minority with some likelihood of outside support (say liberals) for vetoing any radicalization.

[Commissar Rykov]

Just get involved with big numbers, but not trying to assume command of anything or bossing anyone around. We do our stuff, they like it they can hear more, otherwise they can stick to their "third" way ilusions for some extra time.
So I shouldn't show up to my nearest Occupy movement with a giant banner stating, "The One Man Vanguard has Arrived!"? Damn there go my dreams of being Dear Leader.:crying:

[OHumanista]

So I shouldn't show up to my nearest Occupy movement with a giant banner stating, "The One Man Vanguard has Arrived!"? Damn there go my dreams of being Dear Leader.:crying:

LMAO :laugh:
That would be epic for the laughs and maybe you could even feature on Faux News as they try to prove you're the evil communist mastermind behind the movement and you confirm it all . :che:

On serious note bands of misguided but well intentioned people can be very salvageable sometimes, it can test a commie's patience however. :D

[coda]

It is never hopeless - that is self-defeating propaganda to have swimming around in your head.

It's good to see it spreading from city to city..there is a definite anti-capitalist revolutionary presence in NY.

I think the most important main point is to maintain momentum. After everyone else goes home after it ends, (and it will) the Left needs to keep agitating and organizing continuously and non stop, keeping the anti-capitalist dialogue on top, spreading it outward... It is the opportunity when the non-conscious working class are still listening..

Shutting it down, and waiting for the next formal pre-planned protest event is where the major mistake is made! It is like starting over again from scratch every time.

Keep up the momentum for the Long Haul...

[#FF0000]

What's wrong with consensus?

It becomes dictatorship of the contrarian asshole and stifles creativity because people are stepping on eggshells not to rustle any one person's jimmies.

Plus a guy I was talking to pointed out that its probably a sign of a weak group since consensus decision making is basically saying the group can't survive with internal disagreements

[Rocky Rococo]

remember, some ofthe people who have been in on this from the beginning are comrades. Get involved, sniff around, before you say anything more than "I can contribute a tent" figure out who the comrades embedded are, let them know you've got their backs. Once you do that, don't be surprised how many friends you suddenly have. Because I can't state it for a fact in this specific case or any given community, but I've been through enough "movements" in my life to know that the comrades on the inside are already networked and know that their success depends on folks like you showing up, getting involved, and finding them.

[Tablo]

What's all the hate for the leaderless structure I keep seeing? I really feel like that is one of the real strengths in Occupy Wall Street.

[YSR]

Here's what we're doing:

Developing a message, a clear idea about what kind of society we want to see (beyond the typical social democratic messages that the Occupy movement is putting forth) then having conversations about that message with people in the movement as a way of bringing people around and pushing things to be more clear. Also we're going to come up with a plan about how to implement this message and how to take intermediate steps to get this message pushed through. I think taking over the leadership of these things isn't worth the effort. We should use the mass space as an opportunity to talk about what we believe in and why and provide people with opportunities to do cool stuff with us and change their lives.

[agnixie]

What's wrong with consensus?

Some people don't like when the people's will is not expressed through a fatherly figure I guess.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Main problems:

- Obsession with "money out of politics" as if that's a cure-all to capitalism
- Consensus democracy
- Little to no leadership
- Zero vision

How can we solve these problems?

Also, I've heard many people call for leadership but I'm wondering what the leadership of such a group would look like? I don't even really understand the purview of OWS.


This could be a good opportunity to educate people.


WHAT COMMUNITYBELIEVER SAID

What I had to say on the matter:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/3-thoughs-occupyws-t162281/index.html

Don't go there expecting the next Communist revolution overnight, go there expecting a lot of pissed of proles who are there for their own personal or social needs. They are there because they are unemployed, are students, are underemployed, or are homeless, or know someone who is. Or they are there because they sympathize with such groups. Go there and educate people, help organize rallies, and instead of shouting at them for not being socialists, how about you show them that socialists matter?! Be there for them, not for socialism, in the long-run that's the best thing you could do both for a socialist revolution and this movement as a whole.

[Summerspeaker]

We have a fair number of anarchists, Marxist-Leninists (the PSL), and socialists involved in the movement here in Albuquerque.

[CAleftist]

-Organize
-Provide analysis from a Marxist perspective
-Listen to what people involved have to say, ask pertinent questions, seek clarity and concreteness

[thefinalmarch]

You've got to be there on the ground, but don't go there as representative members of obscure, self-appointed vanguard parties or whatever outside of the working class. Rather, do so as fellow workers with common interests actively struggling for a break with the liberal elements in the Occupy movement. Make it clear that liberalism (which seems to be the main political force influencing these demos) will only serve to keep the "ninety-nine percent" down and in their place. Above all, make it clear that the problem is systemic.

[Rusty Shackleford]

What's all the hate for the leaderless structure I keep seeing? I really feel like that is one of the real strengths in Occupy Wall Street.
If you were at Occupy Sac you'd understand why there is hate.

I mean seriously people say 'were all leaders' and then one of the non-leaders tells someone to 'shut their piehole' when he is getting criticized on stage.

you'd understand when its privileged anarcho-hipsters running the show.


also, 3 nights in a row of arrests with no fucking program or 'points' being adopted to get arrested for!


just talk to anyone at Occupy Sac and you would probably find agreement that there is a non-leader leadership that has come out of this 'consensus' democracy and leaderlessness. no one is accountable and who is the fucking donated money going to!?

now, i havent been there over the course of the weekend because of work and moving but i did watch some of the live stream and it look like some improvements have been made.

i havent lost hope yet but im just bewildered by how accurate the critiques of anarchist and left-liberal organization can be sometimes.

[RHIZOMES]

If you were at Occupy Sac you'd understand why there is hate.

I mean seriously people say 'were all leaders' and then one of the non-leaders tells someone to 'shut their piehole' when he is getting criticized on stage.

you'd understand when its privileged anarcho-hipsters running the show.


also, 3 nights in a row of arrests with no fucking program or 'points' being adopted to get arrested for!


just talk to anyone at Occupy Sac and you would probably find agreement that there is a non-leader leadership that has come out of this 'consensus' democracy and leaderlessness. no one is accountable and who is the fucking donated money going to!?

now, i havent been there over the course of the weekend because of work and moving but i did watch some of the live stream and it look like some improvements have been made.

i havent lost hope yet but im just bewildered by how accurate the critiques of anarchist and left-liberal organization can be sometimes.

I'm getting similar vibes from Occupy Auckland, Socialist Aotearoa is all up in this shit. They have a tendency to be domineering and to claim ownership over everything, riding on the coattails of organic movements so they can promote the Socialist Aotearoa brand. I'm all for consensus, since I think consensus culture is a definitive way of battling class culture on a discursive/ideological level, but I think the issue of domineering people should be made more explicit, and counter-measures put in place to quell that problem.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

Too many liberals, not enough actual leftists.

[smashcapital]

I see the consensus democracy approach as a strength in the movement for now. Without it some liberal agenda probably would have already been adopted by the movement. This will allow us to dispute the liberal agenda and try to push forward with more radical ideas.

[RED DAVE]

Main problems:

- Obsession with "money out of politics" as if that's a cure-all to capitalism
- Consensus democracy
- Little to no leadership
- Zero vision

How can we solve these problems?

Also, I've heard many people call for leadership but I'm wondering what the leadership of such a group would look like? I don't even really understand the purview of OWS.First off, we don't use the word "commies" or some variation of it for ourselves. The word creates more problems than it solves.

More later.

RED DAVE

[Dimmu]

The hole critique of being "leaderless" is false.. Being "leaderless" in an anarchistic sense does not mean that no one should be able to speak for the group etc.. Anarchism mean that the decisions have to come from bottom-up. Different people are good at different things and if there are charismatic people who can speak then the person should be allowed to speak but only after consulting everyone else on what to say etc.

I would be strictly against any attempt by some people or parties to create a vanguard.

[Ele'ill]

I think many of the answers to this question have been answered in all of the wallstreet threads on this forum.

I would say that there are a lot of people demonstrating who have never demonstrated before. The camp here is absolutely lively with a road blockade (that both radicals and liberals helped to secure on the first day- about ten libs even got ready to lock down by sitting with their bikes- despite police in riot gear driving around the square one block away- flashing their strength and about 30-40 bike cops right across the street) which involves heavy drumming and chanting all day long. There are medic tents- food tents etc etc. There were two GA's per day and now there is one in the evenings (I think). These GA's are huge. There should be a radical presence within them. We're working class- we belong there. This is a leaderless movement. People will see how absolutely absurd siding with the police/state is in due time. They will learn that no matter what puppy dog look they flash at the police during arrest they will still be arrested and removed and their movement will fail.

For specific examples of what's going on with each camp I'd just browse the occupy area of this forum. There are tons.

[A Marxist Historian]

Main problems:

- Obsession with "money out of politics" as if that's a cure-all to capitalism
- Consensus democracy
- Little to no leadership
- Zero vision

How can we solve these problems?

Also, I've heard many people call for leadership but I'm wondering what the leadership of such a group would look like? I don't even really understand the purview of OWS.

What should the Left contribution here be?

Well, *not* just being more militant and wanting to fight the cops and seize buildings and get arrested. This is exactly where listening to the masses and going with the flow is what is necessary. If anything, if ultra-militants want to do stupid things and get everybody arrested unnecessarily, experienced people who have been through this before should act as older and wiser heads.

Let the tactical leadership evolve organically.

What the Left needs to do is to provide what is missing, namely a revolutionary program. And by that I don't mean hassling at each meeting over exactly what the demands are this week.

What's the movement all about? Opposing Wall Street and the victimization of America's Main Street. The 99%

Well, what's that about? Capitalism.

The main job of socialists is ... to be socialists. To say that the problem is capitalism and the solution is socialism.

Politically? Obama and the Democrats are trying to co-opt this movement, and if the Left allows that to happen, it will succeed. So the *other* thing that socialists, communists and revolutionaries have to do is to disabuse the other people there of illusions in the Democratic Party, the idea that the Democrats are better than the Republicans.

Those are jobs 1 and 2 for the Left in the OWS movement. On this basis, the movement needs to be polarized and split, so that its left wing can become a *real* left wing, that can impact America, and we will have a mass left wing in this country, not just us folk squabbling with each other on Revleft.

Forget about tactical leadership and exactly how the current list of demands reads, which changes from day to day.

Back to basics!

-M.H.-

[yobbos1]

Want to help this movement?
Show up!
Seriously, just fucking show up.
We need to take all of our various 'isms' for the moment and put them on the shelf. This thing has started out as an organic movement against the banks and big govt "by the corporations, for the corporations" if there was ever a time for the real left to shut the fuck up, stop analyzing everything to death and roll up our sleeves, this is it.
Of course the powers that be are trying to co-opt the movement, that's the American way isn't it? I bet even the most cynical (paranoid?) among us would be astonished to find out just how many dirty tricks professionals are milling about in the crowds and influencing what people see and hear. So show up! One bad apple spoils the bunch its true but it is tougher for that bad apple to spoil a million apples than it is to spoil a hundred.

[Rocky Rococo]

One of the strengths of affinity group based organizing is that it makes the presence of existing informal networks explicit. If the members of a single acknowledged affinity group dominate an assembly it becomes obvious, and the means to rectify that likewise become obvious. As long as the informal networks are concealed, however thinly if only by "politeness", it makes it much harder to even define the problem, never mind address it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

If i wasnt broke all the time, i would be there in occupy sac more. i dont dislike it. i mean, you run into people talking about chemtrails and shit but whatever. i really want to do outreach for it before it implodes.

i mean, theres a peaceful resolution committee which im guessing is there to help 'settle differences' but theres no organizing for extra-occupation organizing besides whats on the internet.

[Reznov]

Basically, since nothing of this large scale popularity will ever exist in support of Communism, no.

Therefore, I refuse to support things as this, since the Communists are constantly being made more and more weaker as more liberal minded groups gain more and more popularity. I plan on becoming involved in academia heavily and criticizing mass movements like portrayed do not reflect Communist Ideals.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Basically, since nothing of this large scale popularity will ever exist in support of Communism, no.

Therefore, I refuse to support things as this, since the Communists are constantly being made more and more weaker as more liberal minded groups gain more and more popularity. I plan on becoming involved in academia heavily and criticizing mass movements like portrayed do not reflect Communist Ideals.
were not communists involved in Tahrir?

[RED DAVE]

One of the strengths of affinity group based organizing is that it makes the presence of existing informal networks explicit. If the members of a single acknowledged affinity group dominate an assembly it becomes obvious, and the means to rectify that likewise become obvious. As long as the informal networks are concealed, however thinly if only by "politeness", it makes it much harder to even define the problem, never mind address it.The problem with this kind of organizing, and it first appeared at the large antiwar demos at the end of the 60s or the early 70s, is that it is virtually impossible to go from this kind of organization to anything larger, capable of large-scale democratic decision making.

Affinity groups, in my opinion, enshrine the fundamental weakness of an existing movement, the lack of leadership and make it into a virtue, which it is not. It is a petit-bourgeois tactic. Can anyone really see affinity groups capable of dealing with the presence of organized labor or (gasp) the organized Left.

RED DAVE

[Tabarnack]

"How can we commies positively affect Occupy Wall Street?"

By staying away, and leave it to people who know what they are doing... :rolleyes:

[RED DAVE]

"How can we commies positively affect Occupy Wall Street?"

By staying away, and leave it to people who know what they are doing... :rolleyes:Assuming you're seriously, Comrade, this is completely wrong. We have, as a result of our bbeing able (hopefully) to study history and society, learn and participate, to have some perspective on what needs to come next. The lesson of Marxism is for this wonderful, rag-tag group of people to move, however they can, towards the working class. Left to their own devices, they will flounder in a sea of petit-bourgeois politics.

RED DAVE

[Dimmu]

"How can we commies positively affect Occupy Wall Street?"

By staying away, and leave it to people who know what they are doing... :rolleyes:



Why??!

While i do not believe that this protest movement will achieve anything, but i am very hopeful and surprised that so many people are actually taking to the streets and many of these people will get radicalize which will lead to bigger movements in the future.

[RED DAVE]

While i do not believe that this protest movement will achieve anythingWhy not? It has already achieved "something": it has coalesced the largest protests against the actions of the ruling class in the US (and around the world) in decades.


but i am very hopeful and surprised that so many people are actually taking to the streets and many of these people will get radicalize which will lead to bigger movements in the future.The you do believe it will lead to something.

Are you involved in the Occupation in your city or town or the nearest one, or are you working to building one?

RED DAVE

[Reznov]

Assuming you're seriously, Comrade, this is completely wrong. We have, as a result of our bbeing able (hopefully) to study history and society, learn and participate, to have some perspective on what needs to come next. The lesson of Marxism is for this wonderful, rag-tag group of people to move, however they can, towards the working class. Left to their own devices, they will flounder in a sea of petit-bourgeois politics.

RED DAVE

All talk.

Let's see what your doing, Mr. high and mighty.

[Dimmu]

Why not? It has already achieved "something": it has coalesced the largest protests against the actions of the ruling class in the US (and around the world) in decades.
Of course. And i am quite happy that it happened. But the protest itself in its current form will not achieve anything IMHO. I hope that i can be proven wrong.



The you do believe it will lead to something.

The key word here is "lead". I do believe that it will get more people to join the fight against the capitalism and state as whole and not just against the "evil bankers" or "greedy corporations".



Are you involved in the Occupation in your city or town or the nearest one, or are you working to building one?

There is going to be an attempt in Helsinki this saturday.

[Threetune]

IT IS THE WIDE RANGING LEVELS OF DEBATE AND THE PARTISIPATION OF MANY ‘DIFFERENT’ PEOPLE IN THAT DEBATE THAT IS ITSSELF THE NEW REVOLUTIONARY PHANOMINA.

It is pointless trying to guess at what will happen next. Let's look at what is and take it from there. Right now (reportedly) there is NO Consensus about what to say or do or think, but still the 'movement' of this diverse group of people is there and spreading around the US and the world.

Put any template you like on top of it from the historical record in order to define it and we can find close matches and some near parallels, but none of the old templates fit this new phenomena because it is a spontaneous response to an economic, social and political reality that has never existed before.

That is what is giving rise to the unprecedented debate being generated around it, 54 threads on this sight alone, together with the confused response of the 'establishment' which by turns has tried to ignore it, court it, or condemn it.

IT IS THE WIDE RANGING LEVELS OF DEBATE AND THE PARTISIPATION OF SO MANY PEOPLE IN THAT DEBATE THAT IS ITSSELF THE NEW REVOLUTIONARY PHANOMINA.

The people are beginning, albeit tentatively, to debate widely about the future of, well, everything.

The best activity communists can do now is to invite all workers to participate in the DEBAT and let the ‘Occupy movement’ become the Great Talking Shop. Demand that everyone who wants to speak be given five minutes’ at the microphone – more if the assembly want to hear more.

The DEBATE and wining the debate, polemic, arguments, out in the open in front of the working class is the opportunity for communism.

Seize the day!

[RedTrackWorker]

Why not? It has already achieved "something": it has coalesced the largest protests against the actions of the ruling class in the US (and around the world) in decades.

The 2006 May Day immigrant rights marches were bigger on that one day than the total participation in the "occupy" stuff so far I'm pretty sure. Certainly in terms of working-class significance, the 2006 May Day actions--virtual general strikes in some places, etc.--are more significant. This "occupy" stuff showed the potential for a class-wide fight and has gotten the attention of many different layers in society, but it has yet to show it can actually capitalize (pun intended) on that potential and help bring out broad layers of the workers into the streets. I'd like to be wrong about that, and am discussing on here and in the League how we can best work to make me wrong (i.e. how we can best take advantage of this opportunity to galvanize larger working class actions), but all the initial limitations of the milieu are coming to the fore right now (note your own report that the space is "pre-political" in many ways).

[Tablo]

Why do you guys feel like there is no working class involvement? From what I have seen the vast majority interested in involvement in Bham is working class/unemployed workers.

[Property Is Robbery]

Why do you guys feel like there is no working class involvement? From what I have seen the vast majority interested in involvement in Bham is working class/unemployed workers.
I haven't read the thread well enough but maybe they meant class conscious. While there are a few actual leftists down here in SD the majority are either "hippies" or liberals.

[blake 3:17]

Affinity groups, in my opinion, enshrine the fundamental weakness of an existing movement, the lack of leadership and make it into a virtue, which it is not. It is a petit-bourgeois tactic. Can anyone really see affinity groups capable of dealing with the presence of organized labor or (gasp) the organized Left.


I found being part of an affinity group during large multi-day protest actions pretty useful. People had each other's backs, could trust each other and a common political & pragmatic understanding of what to do tactically. I've been caught off guard at some pretty wild demonstrations and ended up surrounded by people I didn't know -- not so nice when cops are charging or waving guns around....

[yobbos1]

To those advocating non-participation.

A small percentage of the American population actively worked toward independence.
Likewise a comparative few facilitated the Russian and Cuban revolutions.
You are sounding to me like anxious academics who are genuinely afraid of getting involved in any meaningful change. Coffeehouse Marxists maybe?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

To those advocating non-participation.

A small percentage of the American population actively worked toward independence.
Likewise a comparative few facilitated the Russian and Cuban revolutions.
You are sounding to me like anxious academics who are genuinely afraid of getting involved in any meaningful change. Coffeehouse Marxists maybe?

The difference is that those Cubans and Russians used armed force.

[yobbos1]

The difference is that those Cubans and Russians used armed force.
Yes, eventually. These movements didn't just happen overnight. No political change can take place in a vacuum How many people are getting their first taste participating in civil disobedience these past few weeks? How many are being exposed to new ideas? How many will take the heavy-handed responses of the various police departments as proof that they live in a fascist corporatocracy? How many will become lifelong dissidents as a result of what they are learning?
Too many so-called revolutionaries are really nothing more than bookworms indulging in endless posturing in a self-conscious and somewhat sad attempt to be different. Many are guilty of over-intellectualizing and under-performing.
This is the closest thing many of us will ever see in our lifetimes to a truly revolutionary moment.
It is upon us. Take action.

[RED DAVE]

I found being part of an affinity group during large multi-day protest actions pretty useful. People had each other's backs, could trust each other and a common political & pragmatic understanding of what to do tactically. I've been caught off guard at some pretty wild demonstrations and ended up surrounded by people I didn't know -- not so nice when cops are charging or waving guns around....All this may be true: I've found my best experience in large demos to be with an organization like a union.

However, the Occuptions are not demos. They are qualitatively different, and if they remain at the level of affinity groups, essentially a petit-bourgeois form, they will not progress.

RED DAVE

[RED DAVE]

Uncoordinated notes on my third visit to Occupy Wall Street – Wednesday, October 12 – About 9:00 PM

1) The sensory impression of the Occupation at night is completely different than from the day. People are entirely within the barriers (still a large area of a full city block) and everything feels more concentrated, more intense.

2) The impression is of even less politics at night than during the day. I had hoped to see a General Assembly or some large-scale discussion going on but no such.

3) People are talking, talking, talking to each other. But there are few buttons, leaflets or any common method of conveying points of view. We are still at a very pre-poltical stage.

4) The music and dancing (it shuts down at 10:00 PM) were intense, almost frightening. My wife, a professional singer and song writer said that the music was neither angry nor fearful by a way of avoiding anger and feear: "pure trance," she called it.

5) Absolutely no indication of the presence of organized labor or the organized Left.

6) People are well supplied with food and plastic tarps against the weather. It rained briefly tonight, and the temperature is about 60 F with a wind blowing.

RED DAVE

[graymouser]

I haven't been up to Wall Street because I've been so damn busy but I have been a number of times over to Occupy Philly.

Our branch has been pretty focused on it; we have been working on an antiwar demonstration on Saturday which is now going to be tied up with Occupy Philly (i.e. we will march from our site at Independence Mall to Occupy Philly at City Hall). In the mean time, and afterward, we have been doing a lot of intervention as revolutionary socialists; on Saturday I must have passed out hundreds of leaflets with our action program, which I think is useful propaganda. I think people want ideas and we have some entirely reasonable demands that can be put up into a simple flyer.

One thing we've been doing, and I have to say it's a good experience, is wrangling some people out to a public discussion. I gave one as a test run on Tuesday - reprising a talk I had given last month on ecology and socialism - and will be doing it again, we're also going to do one on the jobs crisis as well as a panel on the Death Penalty. It's really something to sit in a circle with folks on public property and have a discussion of socialist ideas, I recommend comrades give it a try.

Essentially I think the approach at this point has to be propagandistic. That's fine; it's in the process of "patiently explaining" socialist ideas and finding class-conscious individuals among what's going on. If we had a branch of 30, 40 people we would probably be vying to do some more things, like getting rid of consensus, but we don't. An approach has to be based on your relation to the overall situation.

[Tabarnack]

"How can we commies positively affect Occupy Wall Street?"

By staying away, and leave it to people who know what they are doing... :rolleyes:



Why??!

Because "Marxists" can't even create unity among themselves, and we are supposed to unify the American people in struggle, by promoting violence or flying the hammer and sickle or whatever nonsense that has been suggested here.

It is us that need to learn from the protesters, while we theorize about revolution, they on the other hand engage in it, so if we show up there lets STFU and learn something or stay away.

[Threetune]

Uncoordinated notes on my third visit to Occupy Wall Street – Wednesday, October 12 – About 9:00 PM

1) The sensory impression of the Occupation at night is completely different than from the day. People are entirely within the barriers (still a large area of a full city block) and everything feels more concentrated, more intense.

2) The impression is of even less politics at night than during the day. I had hoped to see a General Assembly or some large-scale discussion going on but no such.

3) People are talking, talking, talking to each other. But there are few buttons, leaflets or any common method of conveying points of view. We are still at a very pre-poltical stage.

4) The music and dancing (it shuts down at 10:00 PM) were intense, almost frightening. My wife, a professional singer and song writer said that the music was neither angry nor fearful by a way of avoiding anger and feear: "pure trance," she called it.

5) Absolutely no indication of the presence of organized labor or the organized Left.

6) People are well supplied with food and plastic tarps against the weather. It rained briefly tonight, and the temperature is about 60 F with a wind blowing.

RED DAVE
Thanks for that report. You will appreciate for us communist workers in Britain, Europe and around the world the development in the US are massively important, and any and every detail is eagerly depowered. Our new unemployment figures have just been released and ‘officially’ we have over two million now and a million of which are youth, this on top of all the other grievances is beginning to concentrate minds.

Of particular interest was your point 3)

“3) People are talking, talking, talking to each other. But there are few buttons, leaflets or any common method of conveying points of view. We are still at a very pre-poltical stage.”

To be blunt. What is being talking about? For example is the talk divided by subject or is every one ranging across many issues. Are they concentrating on organisational issues, or working through ‘programs’ etc or is it mostly the “carnival” of jugglers and drummers that Zizek referred to?

Can you give any more detail? It would be much appreciated.

[La Peur Rouge]

Because "Marxists" can't even create unity among themselves, and we are supposed to unify the American people in struggle, by promoting violence or flying the hammer and sickle or whatever nonsense that has been suggested here.

It is us that need to learn from the protesters, while we theorize about revolution, they on the other hand engage in it, so if we show up there lets STFU and learn something or stay away.

So we should just sit around, theorize, and ignore an opportunity to speak about a socialist alternative to people who are pissed off about the state of things?

Sounds like the exact opposite of what we should be doing.

[graymouser]

Because "Marxists" can't even create unity among themselves, and we are supposed to unify the American people in struggle, by promoting violence or flying the hammer and sickle or whatever nonsense that has been suggested here.

It is us that need to learn from the protesters, while we theorize about revolution, they on the other hand engage in it, so if we show up there lets STFU and learn something or stay away.
Oh, what bullshit. The conditions for unity will only arise in the course of common struggle - going home and theorizing is what gets you in trouble. (Not to mention that theory abstracted from practice is as vapid as practice without theory.)

[Tomhet]

I went down to the local "Occupy St John's" occupy 'movement', there was tents strewn about on the harbourfront..
I didn't get much of an impression that any of the folks I talked to are going to bring about meaningful change. I like this movement, it has great potential, but many drawbacks and downfalls....
What needs to occur now is genuine working class involvement, and the ability to make democratic decisions on a large scale basis, it also needs some real organization.. They had no list of goals, a platform, or demands.. so it sort of seemed to me like they were wasting their time..
I'll also be down when I have a day off, solidarity..

[#FF0000]

They had no list of goals, a platform, or demands..


Good.