Dealing With Exclusive Communities

[Aleenik]

I live close to Amish. I don't see them every day, but seeing them isn't something unusual. Not too far away is home to the world's largest population of Amish residents. Naturally, I'm curious how you guys think exclusive communities like the Amish could be delt with, without violence of course. The Amish are pretty hardcore in their beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

[Rafiq]

The revolution will spread fast. I think the amish are the least of oir concerns

[Aleenik]

The revolution will spread fast. I think the amish are the least of oir concernsThis is the learning section. The Amish have around 250,000 members and are growing. I was just curious how people feel societies like the Amish could be dealt with.

[Rafiq]

This is the learning section. The Amish have around 250,000 members and are growing. I was just curious how people feel societies like the Amish could be dealt with.



Then go see a fortune teller.

[Aleenik]

Then go see a fortune teller.Wow.

My troll radar is going off. Apparently you don't understand what the learning section is for and instead would prefer to troll. Sad.

[Leftsolidarity]

Then go see a fortune teller.

If you can't answer the question just don't post. Don't be an asshole. It is a legitimate question.

[Tjis]

The Amish, and other religious communities like them, live like they do voluntarily. They're not harming anyone in doing so. They aren't exploiting people for their own profit. Nor are they exploited for profit. When a revolution comes they'll probably adapt their interactions with the outside world to fit the new situation without much trouble.

So I don't think they need to be dealt with at all. It is up to them to decide how much interaction they'd like with the outside world, and in what way. As long as they're not hurting anyone we should just leave them alone.

[EvilRedGuy]

The Amish, and other religious communities like them, live like they do voluntarily. They're not harming anyone in doing so. They aren't exploiting people for their own profit. Nor are they exploited for profit. When a revolution comes they'll probably adapt their interactions with the outside world to fit the new situation without much trouble.

So I don't think they need to be dealt with at all. It is up to them to decide how much interaction they'd like with the outside world, and in what way. As long as they're not hurting anyone we should just leave them alone.

And as long as they are not forcing/indoctrinating anyone(their children.) :tt2:

[Aleenik]

And as long as they are not forcing/indoctrinating anyone(their children.) :tt2:That is the problem I see with the Amish.

[hatzel]

What does "deal with" even mean? :confused:

[Aleenik]

What does "deal with" even mean? :confused:Basically I'm saying what should be done about exclusive communities like the Amish.

[hatzel]

Basically I'm saying what should be done about exclusive communities like the Amish.

Something has to be done?

And I do understand what the phrase "deal with" means, by the way, I'm just trying to find out what we're talking about in this context. Does "deal with" mean "incorporate into the socialist society" or "make stop being Amish" or what's going on here?

[Stork]

What is so bad about the Amish, as far as I can see their lifestyle is close to tribal communism. Obviously there's a hierarchy, but it's entirely voluntary and they could leave and join the "normal people" anytime. Some even have a tradition where adolescents are sent to live in non-Amish community and explore the world outside. It's the same with other groups like the gypsies and Irish travelers, unless you want complete conformity like the Fascist dream, let them be, they aren't harming or taking from anyone.

[Aleenik]

Something has to be done?

And I do understand what the phrase "deal with" means, by the way, I'm just trying to find out what we're talking about in this context. Does "deal with" mean "incorporate into the socialist society" or "make stop being Amish" or what's going on here?As far as the context, it could be either of the things you listed. Personally, I feel the Amish indoctrinate their kids into a strict and depriving lifestyle. I don't see how that could be allowed under a socialist society.

[Commissar Rykov]

I don't know. It could be either. That's why I'm saying what should be done about them.
Why does anything need to be done about them? They live their lives and adapt to the things around them thus I am failing to see the problem or the need to deal with them. The Amish keep to themselves but still interact with the rest of the USA especially in regards to tourism thus I don't see a problem with their lifestyle.

[piet11111]

The amish are against vaccinations and blood transfusions right ?

That is something i consider child endangerment and reason to take away parental custody.

[Commissar Rykov]

The amish are against vaccinations and blood transfusions right ?

That is something i consider child endangerment and reason to take away parental custody.
Not that I know of there might be certain communities but I know they typically have no problems with either. The only problems I am aware of is their refusal in regards to having abortions which is a problem as their inbreeding has caused some serious genetic defects though certain Amish Communities have gotten around this by marrying into unrelated Amish communities elsewhere. The Amish reject technology because they fear it will breed competition into their communities thus shattering them by creating unwanted greed. They have no problem with life saving medicine or the like their problem is that they connect modern technology with greed, selfishness and brutal competition.

[Stork]

The amish are against vaccinations and blood transfusions right ?

That is something i consider child endangerment and reason to take away parental custody.
I agree, but obviously that can be dealt with on a case-to-case basis.

[Apoi_Viitor]

That is the problem I see with the Amish.

Isn't it a practice of theirs to send a teenager out to live in the outside world for a year (once he/she reaches a certain age)?

[Stork]

Isn't it a practice of theirs to send a teenager out to live in the outside world for a year (once he/she reaches a certain age)?

wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/Rumspringa
I remember seeing a good documentary about this recently of them spending it in the UK.

[Desperado]

As said already, the Amish are pretty (though not totally) benign.

But as for closed communities generally (less and less of a phenomenon with capitalism), we must understand that the proletariat emancipates itself. A hierarchy, if it's to be truly abolished, must be done so through the collective actions (or at least with the active consent of) the oppressed. How else do you ensure it is gone, or get rid of it without creating some other power structure?

In most cases, the oppressed ultimately have the power to overthrow their oppression, but don't. The oppressor is only strong because we are on our knees. Unless the social relation is ended with the consciousness of those at the bottom, nothing ensures that it or similar manifestations wont return, because it is only the people who can be guardians of their own freedom. This is why the rhetoric (because it's only rhetoric, the real reasons are totally otherwise) of emancipating Afghanistan or Iraq with bombs and foreign armies is of course absurd.

[Thirsty Crow]

That is the problem I see with the Amish.
Don't the Amish have a tradition of teenagers being allowed (or even encouraged?) to leave the community in order that they may figure out whether they want to live like that in the first place?

I know very little about this community, but I've seen depictions of such practices in popular culture (CSI: New York comes to mind :laugh:), so forgive my ignorance.

Though, if they do practice this, I think that the whole indoctrination stuff does not hold. And yeah, I agree completely with Tijs (though, if money were to be abolished in favour of a labour voucher system, the adaptation should take on more institutionalized forms, such as direct negotiations with the surrounding communities and some sort of a formal agreement which would provide the Amish with the possibility to obtain said vouchers).

EDIT:


Some even have a tradition where adolescents are sent to live in non-Amish community and explore the world outside.

It's great to respond to a thread without first taking a look at all of the other responses :D

So, you think that only some Amish communities practice this tradition? What about those which do not, what would you say about the internal power structure and the issue of coercion with respect to them?

[Aleenik]

Don't the Amish have a tradition of teenagers being allowed (or even encouraged?) to leave the community in order that they may figure out whether they want to live like that in the first place?

I know very little about this community, but I've seen depictions of such practices in popular culture (CSI: New York comes to mind :laugh:), so forgive my ignorance.

Though, if they do practice this, I think that the whole indoctrination stuff does not hold. And yeah, I agree completely with Tijs (though, if money were to be abolished in favour of a labour voucher system, the adaptation should take on more institutionalized forms, such as direct negotiations with the surrounding communities and some sort of a formal agreement which would provide the Amish with the possibility to obtain said vouchers).I don't know about that practice it may be true. I've only talked to Amish people a few times. Once when I was in elementary school we went over to an Amish school as a field trip, but besides that I've only talked to a few Amish adults a tiny bit. However, even if the practice is true, they are still indoctrinated into the depriving Amish lifestyle until they are older. By that age, they are likely to want to stay in the Amish community.

[Thirsty Crow]

I don't know about that practice it may be true. I've only talked to Amish people a few times. Once when I was in elementary school we went over to an Amish school as a field trip, but besides that I've only talked to a few Amish adults a tiny bit. However, even if the practice is true, they are still indoctrinated into the depriving Amish lifestyle until they are older. By that age, they are likely to want to stay in the Amish community.
So, what specific actions would you advocate, if any? If I'm not mistaken, it seems as if you would advocate a kind of a ban on children being reared in these conditions. But correct me if I'm wrong by all means.

[Aleenik]

So, what specific actions would you advocate, if any? If I'm not mistaken, it seems as if you would advocate a kind of a ban on children being reared in these conditions. But correct me if I'm wrong by all means.I don't know what I'd advocate, but I find it wrong to raise children in an Amish society.

[hatzel]

However, even if the practice is true, they are still indoctrinated into the depriving Amish lifestyle until they are older.

What's 'depriving' about it? Not having the latest gadgets and fads and technology isn't necessarily depriving, and I can only assume that the social capital in the Amish community puts the rest of the country to shame. Of course, I'm not an expert, but I refuse to believe that social cohesion and general happiness is worse in the Amish community than it is in inner city areas, gripped by consumerism and materialism (in the non-philosophical sense, like in that Madonna song). One's life doesn't revolve around whether one has an iPod and an X-box 360, you know, there are many other things which are considerably more important to quality of life, and whether or not one is 'deprived'...

[Rafiq]

If you can't answer the question just don't post. Don't be an asshole. It is a legitimate question.

No one could answer a question like that, he's asking for what our plan is going to be in a post revolutionary society, something that is without question Utopian.

[Rafiq]

And in modern times I don't think it should be Legal to join an Amish community until age 17. What right do they have forcing Children to live in their reactionary society?

[Rafiq]

What's 'depriving' about it? Not having the latest gadgets and fads and technology isn't necessarily depriving, and I can only assume that the social capital in the Amish community puts the rest of the country to shame. Of course, I'm not an expert, but I refuse to believe that social cohesion and general happiness is worse in the Amish community than it is in inner city areas, gripped by consumerism and materialism (in the non-philosophical sense, like in that Madonna song). One's life doesn't revolve around whether one has an iPod and an X-box 360, you know, there are many other things which are considerably more important to quality of life, and whether or not one is 'deprived'...

Why should kids in the Cities have the right to enjoy all of the technological luxuries we do while the Amish children don't even have a choice as to whether or not they want to?

They (city kids) could choose not to buy all that crap and be 'Amish', it's their choice. The Amish kids don't have a choice. They are being deprived.

[hatzel]

They (city kids) could choose not to buy all that crap and be 'Amish', it's their choice. The Amish kids don't have a choice. They are being deprived.

We've already established that many Amish take a 'sabbatical' of sorts away from their insular communities, to experience the 'wider world,' and we can only assume that these people are allowed to leave the Amish community, if this taste of modernity appeals to them. Of course we could suggest that they only choose to remain within the Amish community because they are not conditioned to the 'wider world,' but this remains a choice, as free as anybody else's, should they be faced with the possibility to remain in the familiar or dive into the unknown.

Anyway, it's not actually just a question of choosing to buy stuff or not (and it could be argued that this choice is largely taken out of their hands, it being such a social expectation, through peer pressure and other channels, that they must conform, willingly or otherwise), nor is the Amish's lack of stuff necessarily what gives them social worth. It's a question of children in contemporary society often being born into a dysfunctional society, perhaps lacking a familial structure conductive to their proper emotional development, being plonked in front of the TV throughout their childhood so that they barely possess any semblance of social skills come adulthood, before being sucked into various undesirable worlds before even reaching full maturity. And, of course, they have no real choice in any of this, as they are merely products of the society in which they were born and in which they were brought up. Perhaps the Amish kids are being deprived of something, who knows, but that isn't to say that the non-Amish or any better off, nor that we can claim their deprivation cuts deeper than our own.

Just today, for example, I read in the newspaper about a young woman who had spent thousands and thousands on plastic surgery to recover her self-esteem, apparently because her own father had joked about her being ugly throughout her childhood. And, in fact, we see many people drawn into such dilemmas of body-image, in the face of hyperreal portrayals of beauty in contemporary society. Some may not agree that this is a sign of an unhealthy upbringing, severely limiting the possibilities for personal development later in life, but I am personally of that opinion. I also feel that such problems would be effectively non-existent in the Amish community, given the fact that they do not seek to glamourise beauty.

Of course this is only one example, and there are several positives and negatives on either side of the divide, but it's terribly simplistic to condemn the Amish way of life and social structure, when it may, in fact, be superior to our own in many important areas; the idea of progress is one which necessarily has to be debased, as we embrace a more pluralist approach, acknowledging that (if I may take a punt here in quoting Isaiah Berlin, risking needless accusations of Liberalism, merely for showing a familiarity with his work) "different ideals of life, not necessarily altogether reconcilable with each other, are equally valid and equally worthy."

In summary: the Amish don't need dealing with.

[TheWhiteStreak]

My mom had told me about their year long thing. However, the problem with it is if they decide to leave for good after that year is up then they're exiled from their community. They aren't allowed to even contact their parents and can't return to live in the community if they later change their mind. At least that's what I remember my mom telling me. I'm sure you can see how discouraging that is. I do think that they should be left alone though. They might be a little more open to society after a revolution with the whole greed thing gone. And during some trips to Lancaster, Pa. (known for the Amish that live there) I've noticed they're way more modernized. They were even selling products made in China lol.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

W hat I've heard about the Amish is that youth are encouraged to spend a year or two in the outside world, with "the English" as they put it. Kids grow up hearing about how decadent "the English" are, the outside world is rampant with drugs,satanism, alcohol, sex, and other such perversions.Kids grow up in a very tightly controlled world. When they do go outside, they pretty much lose it and get messed up with drugs, drinking, etc. Its a self fulfilling prophecy.After a year of hedonistic decadence they come crawling back home. "You were right all the time".This reinforces all the Amish teachings.

Of course who's to say that the Amish, as confiniung and controlling as they might be, are any worse than "normal" Americans who rush to get the latest iphone, SUV, or whatever people are brainwasahed into thinking thety need (not that I have anything against....)

The Amish are a boring subculture. Having said this, we shouldn't "do anything" about them at all. In a socialist society, such subcultures will adjust and find their own way of dealing with a more liberated outside world. Perhaps young people wishing to leave the subculture could be given some help in the process but overall I don't there's much to be done.

A similar question, scattered throughout the western US are small isolated fundamentalist Mormon groups who still practice polygamy. There are towns like this. The young men are chased out on various religious pretexts, they break some commandment, so the older men will have all the women to themselves.

Should a socialist society intervene in a situation like this? I would say yes, but intervention would work best under socialism.

[EvilRedGuy]

All subcultures are a joke. Just ban the shit.

[hatzel]

All subcultures are a joke. Just ban the shit.

Why on Earth would anybody want to do that? :confused:

Coincidentally, I actually feel it's probably more fitting to describe the Amish as a distinct culture existing alongside a more dominant one, rather than a subculture; the very nature of such exclusive communities is that - in keeping the wider world out of their affairs, and themselves out of the wider world's affairs - they are effectively removed from the surrounding culture, rather than constituting a subset of it.