Comandante Jesus - Failed Guerrilla Warfare

[Zealot]

http://rockbeyondbelief.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/jesus-gun-255x300.jpg

So I was reading the bible yesterday and noticed these passages, in which Jesus looks like some commander in a guerrilla unit. Not sure if my interpretation is correct, but here it is for the lulz.


if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. -Luke 22:36Once they had a few swords they were ready to prepare for war from the Mount Of Olives (Gethsemane).


Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” -Luke 26:36Jesus sets up his first line of defence.


He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” -26:37-38Jesus makes his second line of defence a little further up from the first.


Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed -26:39He goes a little further from his soldiers to pray.


Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” -26:40-41He goes back to the front-line where he finds his guards asleep and rebukes them.


When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. -26:43-44After going back to pray he returns to find them asleep yet again and pretty much gives up.


Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!” -Luke 26:45-46When he comes back they are STILL sleeping, so then he pretty much says "fuck you, I can see Judas coming because you lazy idiots were asleep".


Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs -26:47He realizes he is outnumbered.


one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. -26:51His comrades were ready for war and took the first strike.


“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” -26:52-54Because he knows that the Romans came better prepared with more soldiers, he comes up with fancy tales about being able to command legions of angels and a nice moral lesson in pacifism, even though he was the one who asked his disciples to buy swords.


In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” -26:55-56Again he tries to deny he was leading a rebellion, even though one of his followers has just cut some guys ear off.


Then all the disciples deserted him and fled. -26:56His disciples get confused because they were ready to fight, then they realize he's talking shit so they run away.

Anyone who has other interpretations please enlighten me.:thumbup:

[RGacky3]

They had I believe only a handful of swords, Jesus knew he was going to get killed, if he really wanted to put up a fight he would have brought more people and gotten more swords.

[Zealot]

They had I believe only a handful of swords, Jesus knew he was going to get killed, if he really wanted to put up a fight he would have brought more people and gotten more swords.
Then why did he bother?

[Dave B]

Well actually the sword thing is an issue of controversy for some.

I think it is fair enough, as the argument goes, about what the hell a band of guys are doing with swords when the leader is teaching a Gandhi approach of passive resistance and turn the other cheek etc.

Which I think is the general and up to that point the consistent message.

Apart from perhaps a bit of rough a tumble with the 'Occupy Eastern Wall Street Money Changers' in the temple thing.

We might as well have the Matthew version whilst we are at it.

Matthew 26;47

While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
55 In that hour Jesus said to the crowd, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2026&version=NIV


John in 18;10 names Peter as the ear chopper, and the victim as Malchus, and Luke 22;51 has JC administering first aid to the unfortunate Malchus.

Actually according to some old Christian traditions, never passing up an opportunity to make a story even more interesting, he replaced Malchus’ ear or stuck it back on or whatever and Malchus became a christian later.

As did later apparently the roman soldier who stuck the spear in JC’s side somebody called Longinus so it goes; and Claudia Pilate who became christian saint according to some obscure christian churches in the eastern Med I think.

There is a thesis that the word ‘sword’ was applied to any large knife; and any large knife maybe like bowie knive or perhaps a machete type thing would have been called a sword.

And that such things were an essential part of the standard kit for people living it rough by a kind of Judean bushcraft; as Ray Mears would tell you.


Although I seem to remember that in the Greek the specific militaristic word for sword as a fighting weapon is used.

Anyway he had to be arrested and crucified, so that the 'Scriptures would be fulfilled', and that he would be cast down into hell and come back again etc; to give the story and interesting ending.

Although some might argue 12 legions of angels turning up to save him, who need swords, would have made it better.

....

[ВАЛТЕР]

Couldn't he have just used magic and made a whole bunch of swords from those few he had?

[Smyg]

If Jesus hadn't been such a pacifist, he would have been the greatest revolutionary leader of the ancient world, quite obviously. :D

[scarletghoul]

haha thats awesome.

"everyone get swords and follow me we should rebel"
(in head) "fuck we're gonna lose lol"
(out loud) "hey guys i forgot to say im a pacifist, i mean i could easily iwn but i dont want to."
"wtf you just told us to buy swords"
"lol no i didnt"
"fuck you"

[Susurrus]

"I bring not peace but a sword."
Jesus, somewhere or another in the bible.

[Astarte]

The "sword" is a metaphor for the "logos" or the "word", i.e. the "holy spirit". Hence Revelation 2:16 "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

[Zealot]

The "sword" is a metaphor for the "logos" or the "word", i.e. the "holy spirit". Hence Revelation 2:16 "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."
Sorry but people's ears don't suddenly come off because of a metaphor, no way around this one. Furthermore, replace the word "sword" with the word "holy spirit" when Jesus says "all those who live by the sword will die by the sword" and you'll realize how bad of an argument that is.

[Tablo]

The "sword" is a metaphor for the "logos" or the "word", i.e. the "holy spirit". Hence Revelation 2:16 "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."
if you don’t have a 'holy spirit', sell your cloak and buy one. -Luke 22:36

I don't get it.

[ComradeMan]

The "sword" is a metaphor for the "logos" or the "word", i.e. the "holy spirit". Hence Revelation 2:16 "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

Hmmm..... in the book of the Prophet Micah we find the same theme, Micah 7:6. We also need to look at what Jesus may have meant in a Judaic context- שָׁלוֹם "shalom" does not just mean "peace" in the sense of not-fighting, it means restoration, reparation, wholeness, unity, order and such like from the root s-l-m. This can be achieved, but not without conflict. The sword is fundamentally something that "divides" and this idea of sorting the righteous from the wicked in the House of Israel would be consistant with Jesus' ideas. Later we find that inasmuch as Jesus is the "sacrificial lamb" he is also the Lion of Judah.

[Smyg]

I would say the above argument is essentially the result of awful translating during the past two millenia.

[Dave B]

"I bring not peace but a sword."
Jesus, somewhere or another in the bible.



matthew 10 34;



“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2010&version=NIV

luke 12;49
“I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2012&version=NIV


To be fair you could say that kind of thing about any radical political movement or even an industrial strike.

There was an amusing story on a tracing your history radio programme recently concerning the general strike in 1926 in the UK.

I think it was a postal worker who was a leading trade unionist who was on strike etc meanwhile his wife, a Tory voter, was one of the volunteer scab workers for the post office.

Amazingly the marriage lasted although as one old fogey from the family recollected they didn’t talk on election day.

And of course “Till Death Us Do Part” TV series springs to mind.

Where the lefty old labour scouser, Mike, was acted by Tony Booth, Cherie Blair's father.

[Astarte]

Hmmm..... in the book of the Prophet Micah we find the same theme, Micah 7:6. We also need to look at what Jesus may have meant in a Judaic context- שָׁלוֹם "shalom" does not just mean "peace" in the sense of not-fighting, it means restoration, reparation, wholeness, unity, order and such like from the root s-l-m. This can be achieved, but not without conflict. The sword is fundamentally something that "divides" and this idea of sorting the righteous from the wicked in the House of Israel would be consistant with Jesus' ideas. Later we find that inasmuch as Jesus is the "sacrificial lamb" he is also the Lion of Judah.

Wow, that is awesome... it reminds me of Matthew 10:34 "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword".

EDIT: Haha, I see several people already pointed that out... still, this is always how I thought of this verse, a continuation of the separation of the "wheat from the chaff" theme, obviously having a different meaning from the sword as the Word - though words too can cut and divide - hence metaphors like "words that cut like a knife" or simply "cutting words" ... not only can they be "cutting" to an individual, but also between individuals or entire groups.

[Susurrus]

if you don’t have a 'holy spirit', sell your cloak and buy one. -Luke 22:36

I don't get it.

This makes the bible sound like a new age website.

[Revolution starts with U]

It was New Age for it's time
"Hey man, like, just believe in this Jewish Zombie who was his own father and like... you can.. like.. live forever maaaaan, yaaaaa"

[ComradeMan]

Wow, that is awesome... it reminds me of Matthew 10:34 "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword".

EDIT: Haha, I see several people already pointed that out... still, this is always how I thought of this verse, a continuation of the separation of the "wheat from the chaff" theme, obviously having a different meaning from the sword as the Word - though words too can cut and divide - hence metaphors like "words that cut like a knife" or simply "cutting words" ... not only can they be "cutting" to an individual, but also between individuals or entire groups.

You are right too, there are many layers of meaning here. The idea of a "sword" coming from the mouth, figuratively, or the word being "mighty" is also found in Isaiah.

Job 5:15 "He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;"

Psalm 57:4 "I am in the midst of lions; I am forced to dwell among ravenous beasts—men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords."

Isaiah 11:4 "But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked."

Isaiah 49:2 "He has made My mouth like a sharp sword, In the shadow of His hand He has concealed Me; And He has also made Me a select arrow, He has hidden Me in His quiver..."

These ideas are also taken up and continued by the NT writers.

Ephesians 6:17 "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

Revelation 19:15 "Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations."

Revelation 19:21 "The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh."