How many did Stalin kill?

[molotovcocktail]

I`m quite confused, how many did Stalin kill? According to my history books at school Stalin killed 20 millions, I thought it sounded a bit much so I decided to spend some hours to find a believable number. This was way harder than i though, since every number was different. At this forum and at some independent sources he supposedly killed 650 000. Those numbers where reliable, but other trustworthy sources (history books and independent magazines) claimed 3 millions deaths, some said 2 millions, 1 millions and even 5 millions. Can anybody tell me what is the right number? I am really confused.

I tried to find some links, but it was a large amount of sites, and I don`t remember the names on the books since i got them on the library.

[Ismail]

This belongs to the Learning forum rather than History, so I shall move it there.

Moved.

[Manic Impressive]

It really depends on which deaths you attribute directly to Stalin. The highest numbers usually include all the deaths from WW2 and the famines others just include the famines and purges others just the purges and so on. That's why there are so many different estimates because there is no agreed way to conclude what he's guilty of.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

No one really knows as the records are very biased and thought to be incomplete.

Certainty at least 50-100,000.

(Also,anything you read from the capitalist media is likely to be very biased against anything perceived as communism so always be weary when reading)

[DarkPast]

The consensus seems to be settling on a range of around 1.2 million executed, around 3-4 million died during deportations or in gulags and 3-7 million dead via famine. There's also the matter of Axis civilians and POWs deliberately killed during WW2 (probably hundreds of thousands) and some 100,000 retreating Soviet troops shot by the NKVD during the war.

Relevant literature

Getty, Rittersporn and Zemskov, (1993), Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years'.

Getty, (2002), The Road to Terror: Stalin and the Self-Destruction of the Bolsheviks'

Wheatcroft, (1996), The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings

Ellman (2002), Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments

For the famine see 'Davies, Harrison and Wheatcroft, (1993), The Economic Transformation of the Soviet Union' and 'Davies and Wheatcroft, (2004), The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933'

[Zostrianos]

Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands is a great book on the subject, though it looks at both Nazi and Stalinist terror.
From most of the sources I've seen, it was estimated at 15-20 million total victims, which was about the same that's attributed to the Nazis. On Stalin's Great Terror, pretty much every source I've looked at puts the death toll at about 700,000
Interesting fact: Hitler killed twice as many people as Stalin, in half the time.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Stalin never killed millions.These are bullshit in my opinion.I recommend you to read Ludo Marten's Another View of Stalin.It is a very good Stalinist book.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It's impossible to establish a precise number, but I'm reasonably sure most of the bourgeois sources have the number too high. That said, Stalin's regime was responsible for many deaths.

[Cencus]

You'll never get a straight answer to this, there are no unbiased views; capitalist, anarchist and non m/l communist scources will exagerate the numbers one way, marxist-leninist will shunt the numbers the other way. You may even find a few peeps who will say every death during the Stalin era was justified or excusable.

[tir1944]

At least 100 million innocents.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

At least 100 million innocents.
Oh,really?:rolleyes:

[Nox]

He drank the blood of 400 million women and children.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

He drank the blood of 400 million women and children.
Actually, his real name was Joseph Vambirionovich Stalkin. :p

[Nox]

Actually, his real name was Joseph Vambirionovich Stalkin. :p

Joseph Vampire-ovich

OMG that explains everything!

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Joseph Vampire-ovich

OMG that explains everything!
See the truth was revealed.:laugh:lol.

[thriller]

The Soviet records are becoming more and more open and available to the public, so I would suggest looking at them. Not sure where to find access online though, sorry. As other people stated, it's hard to say. I've read 100 million to 3,500. Everyone seems to have their own number. Plus that question is very basic. Are you counting the Nazi's in Germany as well as people in the USSR?

[Nox]

Roughly 650,000 died because of Stalin.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Roughly 650,000 died because of Stalin.

Even the NKVD's own statistics point to a higher number than that...

[Nox]

Even the NKVD's own statistics point to a higher number than that...

Care to share some of those statistics?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Roughly 650,000 died because of Stalin.
Not even that much.

[Nox]

Not even that much.

Well, when I said that figure I was just listing the number of people who died in the purges. Obviously not all of them can be directly attributed to Stalin.

[Apoi_Viitor]

Care to share some of those statistics?

Sure. "The NKVD data themselves show that there are at least 1.4 million documented homicides in 1930-1939"...

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/RSF-New_Evidence.pdf

Anyways, the 650,000 you sighted earlier is the number executed by the NKVD (according to their own statistics) between 1937-1938.

Also, the op might want to check the article out, since it has a neat graph showing the low to high end estimates of how many died.

[Nox]

Sure. "The NKVD data themselves show that there are at least 1.4 million documented homicides in 1930-1939"...

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/RSF-New_Evidence.pdf

Anyways, the 650,000 you sighted earlier is the number executed by the NKVD (according to their own statistics) between 1937-1938.

Also, the op might want to check the article out, since it has a neat graph showing the low to high end estimates of how many died.

And how many of those 1.4 million would you say Stalin is directly accountable for?

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Well, when I said that figure I was just listing the number of people who died in the purges. Obviously not all of them can be directly attributed to Stalin.
Weren't they 625,000?

[Nox]

Weren't they 625,000?

I said roughly 650,000 so it could be 625,000 I guess...

[Kornilios Sunshine]

I said roughly 650,000 so it could be 625,000 I guess...
This was exactly my point on the previous post. :p

[Rafiq]

The bourgeois snakes say 2 billion but it was really just 1 billion!

[Die Rote Fahne]

A Stalinist will say the lowest, a bourgeois historian the highest. I take a very very fair middle ground, which leans toward soviet numbers, and say 5-15 million were likely killed as a result of Stalinist policy. I may be wrong. Ismail gave me a link with low, mid and high estimates.

Even 100 000 is unjustifiable.

[tir1944]

Even 100 000 is unjustifiable.
What about 99 000?

[Die Rote Fahne]

What about 99 000?

Don't be a wiseass.

[tir1944]

Don't be a wiseass.
I'm not the one who started talking about "justified" numbers...;)

[ClearlyChrist]

The Exact Amount Will Probably Remain Arguable. In The Case Of Text Books, Most Are Drastically Different, And Are Most Likely Incorrect, And Not Representative Of Reality. The Number Usually Varies, And Seems To Differ Between Historians. In Short, Who The Hell Knows?

[Fopeos]

I'm gonna say 12. Give or take.:) Seriously though, you can't blame every death that occured during his regime on Stalin. I know he purged the party and the Red army, but beyond that, i dunno. I'm no Stalinist, but I don't trust bourgeois historians either.

[EvilRedGuy]

Stalin killed 1.00000000000000000000 people, because i say so.

Mao killed ∞ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemniscate) number of people, because i capitalist-boy say so.

Get the logic?

[Nox]

For the realistic death toll that can be directly attributed to decisions made by Stalin, take the number of people killed in the purges and half it.

[Aleenik]

Even if Stalin just killed 1 person for reasons I consider to be wrong, I would hate him. He killed way more than that. Who knows how many exactly. We will probably never know. Still, I hate him. Also, he did way more bad things than just kill people. Just look at the cruel totalitarian society he ruled.

[Nox]

Even if Stalin just killed 1 person for reasons I consider to be wrong, I would hate him. He killed way more than that. Who knows how many exactly. We will probably never know. Still, I hate him. Also, he did way more bad things than just kill people. Just look at the cruel totalitarian society he ruled.

It wasn't perfect, but it became 10x worse after Stalin died.

[Aleenik]

A Stalinist will say the lowest, a bourgeois historian the highest. I take a very very fair middle ground, which leans toward soviet numbers, and say 5-15 million were likely killed as a result of Stalinist policy. I may be wrong. Ismail gave me a link with low, mid and high estimates.

Even 100 000 is unjustifiable.Imo even 1 person who is killed for reasons I consider to be wrong is unjustifiable. Why there are people who look up to one of the shittiest humans to ever exist I'll never understand. I don't even consider Stalin a Communist. Luckily though, Stalinist don't seem to be that popular nowadays.

[Metacomet]

How many people did George W Bush kill? How many did LBJ and JFK kill?

The number is at least 34.48 million. I read it somewhere.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I'm not the one who started talking about "justified" numbers...;)
The point is that, irregardless of how many he killed, his killings were unjustified, and he should have been thrown in prison to rot.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

[pax et aequalitas]

Who cares how many he killed. Every life lost is a drama. I always think about how a dead person's family and friends would feel, terrible and the person him/herself.. terrified.

Now I don't care whether it were 1,000, 650,000 or several millions. Because if 1 death is already such a drama, then when it are so many it is just a horror, no matter how many exactly.

[eric922]

Honestly I don't care if he killed 1 or 1,000,000, if he killed a single innocent person, he killed too many. You'll never convince me that every single death he caused was necessary to defend the revolution.

[tir1944]

You'll never convince me that every single death he caused was necessary to defend the revolution.
Yeah,i know.Trotskytes are well known for their compassion and tolerance towards those who don't agree with them...
*cough* *cough* Kronstadt *cough* *cough*
:laugh:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And how many of those 1.4 million would you say Stalin is directly accountable for?

You're right, Stalin was not a murderer. But he was at the head of a system in whose existence a lot of people died, certainly in the hundreds of thousands if not millions or more.

Because of this state of affairs, one has to wonder how:

1) Stalin stayed at the top for so long, and
2) How his record can then be defended, given that he presided over a system that resulted in so, so many innocents being murdered by the state.

I mean, the long and short of it is that Stalin was not himself a murderer or baby-blood-drinker or whatever, but he was the head of state (in practice), of a state that executed a great many people, wrongly.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

What about 99 000?

I don't think you should make jokes at the expense of dead people.

[tir1944]

I don't think you should make jokes at the expense of dead people.
Tell that to the guy who first mentioned this "100k"...
Also does this apply to let's say Mussolini or something?:laugh:
Also cool moralism bro.:cool:

[ComradeOm]

DarkPast's post is really the most useful one here. Academic consensus has roughly settled on 1-1.5 million. Personally I feel that may be something of an underestimation but it's close enough. Obviously the figures are lower if you read a Stalinist apologist and higher if you're taking your cues from some right-wing hack... but then why would you do either?

I go into a bit of detail on the numbers and nature of the victims in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/did-stalin-really-t145370/index.html)

Frankly, most of the other posts in this thread should be deleted. The number and quality of these one-liners really testifies to the collapse in standards on this forum. This is Learning: take your bullshit elsewhere


And how many of those 1.4 million would you say Stalin is directly accountable for?Quite a large chunk of them. Who do you think was signing the death warrants? The Politburo approved regional limits on executions and senior figures, including Stalin, signed vast numbers of death warrants prior to execution. There were some excesses, of course, but it's safe to say that the vast majority of the executions during the 1930s were officially approved by the Soviet state, often at the highest level

But then it's always worth pointing out that Stalin did not operate alone but rather headed up an entire state apparatus. It's hard to violently repress an entire country by yourself

[Die Rote Fahne]

I'm not the one who started talking about "justified" numbers...;)
Actually you were.


Tell that to the guy who first mentioned this "100k"...
Also does this apply to let's say Mussolini or something?:laugh:
Also cool moralism bro.:cool:
So, me suggesting that 100 000, the point of which was to suggest that even lower than the soviet estimates would be unjustifiable, is making jokes against dead people?

Have you ever made a post that consisted of more than 1 line?

[Fawkes]

The Exact Amount Will Probably Remain Arguable. In The Case Of Text Books, Most Are Drastically Different, And Are Most Likely Incorrect, And Not Representative Of Reality. The Number Usually Varies, And Seems To Differ Between Historians. In Short, Who The Hell Knows?
So, is every noun proper now?


As far as how many people were killed during Stalin's rule, the answer is a lot. Hard numbers depend on your criteria, but the fact of the matter is that there were numbers. And a lot of them.

[Rodrigo]

For the realistic death toll that can be directly attributed to decisions made by Stalin, take the number of people killed in the purges and half it.

Ok, but not just Stalin participated in the purges, and he warned against the extension of them.

"Lenin"'s 1921 purge was bigger than 1936-1937 purge, in percentage. 25% of the party expelled.

Neither Lenin, neither Stalin "killed millions" (or the number you want). They, just like any other Marxist, never argued for extermination. We can say, for example, that one of the consequences of the Civil War was the death of millions; that the consequences of illnesses, droughts and kulak sabotage in Ukraine killed millions; that millions were inevitably killed during WW2 in Soviet soil, etc.

[Aleenik]

How many people did George W Bush kill? How many did LBJ and JFK kill?

The number is at least 34.48 million. I read it somewhere.Ok? What does that have to do with Stalin? It doesn't excuse what Stalin did.

[ComradeOm]

Ok, but not just Stalin participated in the purges, and he warned against the extension of themNo, he and the Politburo repeatedly approved extensions of the violence and regional requests for increased executions. That he later reversed his position and ended the purges (note the demonstration of his power) does not change the fact that he played a crucial role in orchestrating the violence


"Lenin"'s 1921 purge was bigger than 1936-1937 purge, in percentage. 25% of the party expelled.This is inane. How many people in 'Lenin's purge' were executed or sent to concentration camps? How many ordinary, non-party, citizens were similarly killed or imprisoned? A comparison between the two purges merely reveals the differences that the Soviet state had undergone in the intervening years


Neither Lenin, neither Stalin "killed millions" (or the number you want). They, just like any other Marxist, never argued for exterminationNo. The role of Stalin in the formulation, coordination and execution of the purges is relatively well established and documented. He signed off, at least, tens of thousands of death warrants and his approval was necessary for the entire operation. Whatever Stalin said in public - and he can hardly be considered soft on the likes of "spies, wreckers, diversionists, and killers" - in private he was fully behind Yezhov's position and the methods of the NKVD

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Ok, but not just Stalin participated in the purges, and he warned against the extension of them.

"Lenin"'s 1921 purge was bigger than 1936-1937 purge, in percentage. 25% of the party expelled.

Neither Lenin, neither Stalin "killed millions" (or the number you want). They, just like any other Marxist, never argued for extermination. We can say, for example, that one of the consequences of the Civil War was the death of millions; that the consequences of illnesses, droughts and kulak sabotage in Ukraine killed millions; that millions were inevitably killed during WW2 in Soviet soil, etc.

How many execution lists did Stalin sign?

[Commissar Rykov]

How many execution lists did Stalin sign?
I am pretty sure even Stalin himself lost count.

[Geiseric]

Yeah,i know.Trotskytes are well known for their compassion and tolerance towards those who don't agree with them...
*cough* *cough* Kronstadt *cough* *cough*
:laugh:

Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. Lenin's the one who ordered Kronstadt be put down. And as it turns out, it was an actual french plot, and the Sailors were polarised ideologically from the communist sailors, who all left the station to fight the whites and died. The ones who were left were the ones who didn't ever really like the bolsheviks. Wow, I can't believe that a Stalinist is bashing a decision Lenin made.

[Commissar Rykov]

Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. Lenin's the one who ordered Kronstadt be put down. And as it turns out, it was an actual french plot, and the Sailors were polarised ideologically from the communist sailors, who all left the station to fight the whites and died. The ones who were left were the ones who didn't ever really like the bolsheviks. Wow, I can't believe that a Stalinist is bashing a decision Lenin made.
If they didn't then they would have to decide what to do with Stalin since Lenin demanded he be removed from office.

[Geiseric]

I know, right? My god, I'm having a RED DAVE moment here.

I mean what would any sensible person do in that situation when Wrangel was ready to invade from finland? And this stalinist is making fun of a supposed "Trotskyist," decision to put down a rebellion when that waterway needed to be defended. History bro.

[28350]

Did Stalin ever kill anyone personally?

[Geiseric]

I heard he killed his psychiatrist after he deemed Stalin had like a god complex and was a psychotic. However I'm not 100 percent, I just thought it was kinda funny when I heard it.

[tir1944]

Wow you really have no idea what you're talking about. Lenin's the one who ordered Kronstadt be put down. And as it turns out, it was an actual french plot, and the Sailors were polarised ideologically from the communist sailors, who all left the station to fight the whites and died. The ones who were left were the ones who didn't ever really like the bolsheviks. Wow, I can't believe that a Stalinist is bashing a decision Lenin made.
Chill out dude.
Wasn't Trotsky the commander of the units that supressed the Kronst. revolt?

[Nox]

Quite a large chunk of them. Who do you think was signing the death warrants? The Politburo approved regional limits on executions and senior figures, including Stalin, signed vast numbers of death warrants prior to execution. There were some excesses, of course, but it's safe to say that the vast majority of the executions during the 1930s were officially approved by the Soviet state, often at the highest level

But then it's always worth pointing out that Stalin did not operate alone but rather headed up an entire state apparatus. It's hard to violently repress an entire country by yourself

You're saying Stalin personally signed 1.4 million death warrants?

He may have been the one who ordered the purge, but it was the people in the NKVD that went ape shit and killed way too many. Yezhov was even executed for it.

[Geiseric]

No. He told tutchakevsky to handle it. Trotsky was in Siberia I believe. He wasn't the commander of any front, he coordinated and managed the entire army structure.

And it doesn't matter what his concise intentions are, he still ordered the purge of everybody who opposed him! That includes bolsheviks! And he still de jure signed a couple thousand.

[Iron Felix]

How many Jews, Roma, Homosexuals, Handicaps...did Hitler personally murder? Well maybe he killed a Jew or two during his time fighting in the trenches during the First War, but when he was Fuhrer? What about Genghis Khan? His armies murdered tens of millions, but he killed less personally than your average WWII bomber-pilot. This argument doesn't hold, no Stalin then no millions of murdered innocents.

And Yezhov was purged for knowing too much and wielding too much power, he was gradually stripped of his power and supporters and then removed completely. He wasn't purged because Stalin had any ethical problems with Yezhov's methods, Stalin found much value in his Chekist methods actually, Stalin always wanted to groom another Dzerzhinsky ever since the original died at 48, and in Yezhov he nearly succeeded.

[tir1944]

No,Yezhov was purged because he started plotting against against the country in cooperation with foreign and internal counterrevolution...
He also intentionally killed many innocent victims.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You're saying Stalin personally signed 1.4 million death warrants?

He may have been the one who ordered the purge, but it was the people in the NKVD that went ape shit and killed way too many. Yezhov was even executed for it.

Does it matter how many he signed? We know he signed a significant number, obviously signing 1.4million individual death warrants is impossible on the technicality of scarcity of time. I believe he signed lists containing hundreds or thousands of names, anyway.

[Zostrianos]

I heard he killed his psychiatrist after he deemed Stalin had like a god complex and was a psychotic. However I'm not 100 percent, I just thought it was kinda funny when I heard it.

I read that during WW2 Stalin was having a meeting with his generals to assess the situation, and asked whether they could use Soviet planes to strike back at the Nazis. One of the generals answered that the Germans had destroyed all the planes so it couldn't be done. Stalin apparently replied "I really wish you hadn't said that" and the next day had him arrested and shot.

[Geiseric]

I heard he shot a bunch of people for one guy not admitted he sneezed during a speech, but those stories are probably just urban legends.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

I`m quite confused, how many did Stalin kill?

A resounding zero, I do believe.

[Rooster]

A resounding zero, I do believe.

How many did Mussolini kill?

[Commissar Rykov]

I heard he shot a bunch of people for one guy not admitted he sneezed during a speech, but those stories are probably just urban legends.
It is a joke from the time period or shortly after let me post it:

Stalin reads his report to the Party Congress. Suddenly someone sneezes. "Who sneezed?" (Silence.) "First row! On your feet! Shoot them!" (Applause.) "Who sneezed?" (Silence.) "Second row! On your feet! Shoot them!" (Long, loud applause.) "Who sneezed?" (Silence.) ... A dejected voice in the back: "It was me" (Sobs.) Stalin leans forward: "Bless you, comrade!"

Another good one is this:
A secretary is standing outside the Kremlin when Marshal Zhukov leaves a meeting with Stalin and she hears him mutter under his breath, "murderous moustache!". She runs in to see Stalin and breathlessly reports, "I just heard Zhukov say "murderous moustache"!". Stalin dismisses the secretary and sends for Zhukov, who comes back in. "Whom did you have in mind with "murderous moustache"?" asks Stalin. "Why, Hitler, of course, Iosef Vissarionovich." Stalin thanks him and dismisses him, and calls the secretary back. "And whom did you think he was talking about?"

[Commissar Rykov]

How many did Mussolini kill?
Probably a few as he fought on the Northern Italian Front during WWI until he was wounded by grenade shrapnel.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

How many did Mussolini kill?

Google it.

[Rooster]

Google it.

Do you think he signed every death order and every murder?

[Iron Felix]

Yezhov was a loyal Stalinist that killed every critic and opponent of Stalin that he could find, and a lot more. You literally have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Trotsky was a Fascist counter-revolutionary too, right? And Bukharin, who was the main theorist of what we call "Stalinism" today. He was a fascist too! And Kamenev and Zinoviev and Rykov and Pyatakov and Tukhachevsky...all fascists! It seems like almost every Bolshevik that was unforunate enough to survive until the 30s was a fascist and counter-revolutionary! Looks like poor Lenin created a party consisting solely of Himself, Stalin and thousands of fascists and counter-revolutionaries!

Surprising that the October Revolution was possible at all since most of the people involved were fascists.

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Do you think he signed every death order and every murder?

Presumably not.

[Commissar Rykov]

Yezhov was a loyal Stalinist that killed every critic and opponent of Stalin that he could find, and a lot more. You literally have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Trotsky was a Fascist counter-revolutionary too, right? And Bukharin, who was the main theorist of what we call "Stalinism" today. He was a fascist too! And Kamenev and Zinoviev and Rykov and Pyatakov and Tukhachevsky...all fascists! It seems like almost every Bolshevik that was unforunate enough to survive until the 30s was a fascist and counter-revolutionary! Looks like poor Lenin created a party consisting solely of Himself, Stalin and thousands of fascists and counter-revolutionaries!

Surprising that the October Revolution was possible at all since most of the people involved were fascists.
It truly is a blessing that Stalin was there to shed the light on the fascist infestation that permeated at all levels of the Bolsheviks. Where would we be without good ole' Stalin?

[Geiseric]

Also it's kinda funny since fascism had no history at all of developing in Russia, prior to the purges.

[Iron Felix]

What I find especially interesting about Stalinist propoganda is that back in the Soviet Union, no one believed it. It's like the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, when Beria was purged and shot(Marshall Batitsky was awarded the honor of doing it), replacement pages were sent to subscribers, with orders to cut out the pages with Beria's article and replace them with some article about some geographical features in North America.

Obviously no one educated believed the propoganda. Except for the peasant, which is why I guess Mao had a fetish for Stalin-worship. Apparently times have changed.

[Iron Felix]

Also it's kinda funny since fascism had no history at all of developing in Russia, prior to the purges.
Fascism is an advanced form of capitalism, how could it exist in Russia when Russia has never had a period of Capitalist development? Fascism is a recent phenomenon in Russia.

[Zostrianos]

How many did Mussolini kill?

Most sources I've seen for Italy itself assert that while Mussolini was the prototypical dictator, he rarely resorted to killing his opponents, preferring to jail them or have them tortured. Mussolini was a joke compared to Hitler and Stalin

[RED DAVE]

Stalin leaves his office in the Kremln for his private apartment. Soon after he gets home, he discovers that his briefcase is missing. He calls Beria to report the loss.

About an hour later, he calls back to see what's going on. Beria says,

"Well, Comrade Joseph Vissarionovich, we have detained 6 suspects. Five has confessed, one has committed suicide, and we're still working on the last one."

"Never mind," Stalin says. "I left it in the bathroom."

RED DAVE

[Geiseric]

Beria... What a bastard.

[Zostrianos]

Stalin leaves his office in the Kremln for his private apartment. Soon after he gets home, he discovers that his briefcase is missing. He calls Beria to report the loss.
About an hour later, he calls back to see what's going on. Beria says,
"Well, Comrade Joseph Vissarionovich, we have detained 6 suspects. Five has confessed, one has committed suicide, and we're still working on the last one."
"Never mind," Stalin says. "I left it in the bathroom."


:scared::laugh:

[Rodrigo]

How many Jews, Roma, Homosexuals, Handicaps...did Hitler personally murder? Well maybe he killed a Jew or two during his time fighting in the trenches during the First War, but when he was Fuhrer? What about Genghis Khan? His armies murdered tens of millions, but he killed less personally than your average WWII bomber-pilot. This argument doesn't hold, no Stalin then no millions of murdered innocents.

And Yezhov was purged for knowing too much and wielding too much power, he was gradually stripped of his power and supporters and then removed completely. He wasn't purged because Stalin had any ethical problems with Yezhov's methods, Stalin found much value in his Chekist methods actually, Stalin always wanted to groom another Dzerzhinsky ever since the original died at 48, and in Yezhov he nearly succeeded.

What genocide did Stalin defended? What genocide did Hitler and Genghis Khan defended?

Gotcha? :)

[ComradeOm]

Did Stalin ever kill anyone personally?Did George W Bush or even, dare I say it, Hitler? Being head of state brings responsibilities as well as privileges. Stalin may not have pulled the trigger himself but he authorised a huge number of executions (ie, made them possible) and headed the state that killed millions more

[Rodrigo]

Did Stalin ever kill anyone personally?

Yes, during the Russian Revolution.

[Geiseric]

He used to be a brigand down in Georgia before WW1, robbed banks and stuff so I wouldn't be surprised.

[Zostrianos]

Did George W Bush or even, dare I say it, Hitler? Being head of state brings responsibilities as well as privileges. Stalin may not have pulled the trigger himself but he authorised a huge number of executions (ie, made them possible) and headed the state that killed millions more

Actually I read somewhere that Hitler personally took part in the Night of long Knives and may have shot some of his opponents himself.
And something curious relating to this, apparently what inspired Stalin to start his Great Terror was Hitler's own purge. Stalin was having second thoughts about the possible consequences it might bring, but when Hitler so publicly executed 100 opponents, Stalin decided to go ahead with his own purges.
He also sent Hitler a congratulation letter telling something along the lines of "Great job, that's how you deal with political opponents!"

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Did George W Bush or even, dare I say it, Hitler? Being head of state brings responsibilities as well as privileges. Stalin may not have pulled the trigger himself but he authorised a huge number of executions (ie, made them possible) and headed the state that killed millions more

I can be corrected if I'm absolutely wrong but given how the USSR operated before and during Stalin assumed the role of General Secretary even if however many people died can Stalin really bare the collective guilt of this? It was just all his fault? That no one else, not one single person in the party or elsewhere bares any responsibility whatsoever? That he was everywhere, at all times, all knowing, evil dictator guy who reigned on top and over saw every single, solitary, tinsy, tiny little detail that ever happened during his time as General Secretary?



And something curious relating to this, apparently what inspired Stalin to start his Great Terror was Hitler's own purge. Stalin was having second thoughts about the possible consequences it might bring, but when Hitler so publicly executed 100 opponents, Stalin decided to go ahead with his own purges.

He also sent Hitler a congratulation letter telling something along the lines of "Great job, that's how you deal with political opponents!"

If you're really going to make this comparison then I would ask you to cite your sources.

[Zostrianos]

If you're really going to make this comparison then I would ask you to cite your sources.

Here's 3 sources:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1940/trotsky.htm

Hitler’s overwhelming success in the “night of the long knives,” when he killed off with one bold stroke the whole of the effective opposition against him, showed Stalin the way to handle his own problems.

http://www.coursework.info/AS_and_A_Level/History/Modern_European_History__1789-1945/Why_did_Stalin_launch_the_Great_Terror_L117047.htm l

Another reason for Stalin launching the Great Terror may have been that Hitler two years previous had implemented the Night of the Long Knives. This event both gave the example of killing your own top men, to seize full control of your party and country. It also showed Stalin that Hitler was a serious threat to Russia, because up to then Stalin had seen Hitler as not much of a threat, but once he turned on his own men, it showed Stalin that Hitler should be taken seriously. Part of Stalin’s reasons for launching the Great Terror may have been also that he wanted to show Hitler that he to was tough, but still tougher than his enemies in Germany. The Army Purge in 1937 generals including the main strategic thinker of the Red Army were shot and many officers were arrested – either placed in labor camps or shot. This was to get rid of all the thinkers in the Red Army who may question Stalin and o replace them with young ‘yes’ men who would do what they were told to do. With this dramatic change at the top of the Red Army, Stalin reduced the risk of senior Red Army men questioning his orders, yet instead just following them out. If Hitler had not inflicted the Night of the Long Knives on his senior men, then Stalin may have still replaced many of the Generals and Officers, but maybe not on such a huge scale.

And:
http://www.vectorsite.net/twsnow_01.html

Stalin found the Night of Long Knives inspirational, reputedly commenting: "Hitler, what a lad! Knows how to deal with political opponents!" However, Stalin's approach was a little more devious. Six months after the Night Of The Long Knives, on 1 December 1934, Kirov was assassinated by an OGPU agent named Leonid Nikolaev. Some sources suggest that Nikolaev had actually acted on his own and not on Stalin's orders, but if the murder was a spontaneous act, it was incredibly convenient for Stalin. When Bukharin was called on the phone and told of Kirov's murder, he put down the phone and said: "Now Koba will shoot us all."

I had originally read this in a book, but I don't recall which. Give me a few days.

[Bardo]

I believe the correct answer is 42.

[Zostrianos]

I can be corrected if I'm absolutely wrong but given how the USSR operated before and during Stalin assumed the role of General Secretary even if however many people died can Stalin really bare the collective guilt of this? It was just all his fault? That no one else, not one single person in the party or elsewhere bares any responsibility whatsoever?

Beria was supposedly a sadist, who took pleasure in fulfilling any orders for executions he was assigned, and he routinely raped women. If anyone is more responsible than Stalin, it's Beria

[Apoi_Viitor]

Actually I read somewhere that Hitler personally took part in the Night of long Knives and may have shot some of his opponents himself.

He also fought in WW1.

[Agent Equality]

If he did kill someone it was most likely only 10 people and these were enemies of the people or vile, vile anti-revolutionary revisionists! Actually, Stalin killed absolutely 0 people. He was completely innocent and was the savior of Socialism in the glorious USSR. All hail comrade Stalin!

[Dzerzhinsky's Ghost]

Here's 3 sources:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1940/trotsky.htm

Hitler’s overwhelming success in the “night of the long knives,” when he killed off with one bold stroke the whole of the effective opposition against him, showed Stalin the way to handle his own problems.


Speculative and doesn't seem the least bit objective or conclusive in regards to your original assertion.



(http://www.coursework.info/AS_and_A_Level/History/Modern_European_History__1789-1945/Why_did_Stalin_launch_the_Great_Terror_L117047.htm l)
http://www.coursework.info/AS_and_A_Level/History/Modern_European_History__1789-1945/Why_did_Stalin_launch_the_Great_Terror_L117047.htm l

Another reason for Stalin launching the Great Terror may have been that Hitler two years previous had implemented the Night of the Long Knives. This event both gave the example of killing your own top men, to seize full control of your party and country. It also showed Stalin that Hitler was a serious threat to Russia, because up to then Stalin had seen Hitler as not much of a threat, but once he turned on his own men, it showed Stalin that Hitler should be taken seriously. Part of Stalin’s reasons for launching the Great Terror may have been also that he wanted to show Hitler that he to was tough, but still tougher than his enemies in Germany. The Army Purge in 1937 generals including the main strategic thinker of the Red Army were shot and many officers were arrested – either placed in labor camps or shot. This was to get rid of all the thinkers in the Red Army who may question Stalin and o replace them with young ‘yes’ men who would do what they were told to do. With this dramatic change at the top of the Red Army, Stalin reduced the risk of senior Red Army men questioning his orders, yet instead just following them out. If Hitler had not inflicted the Night of the Long Knives on his senior men, then Stalin may have still replaced many of the Generals and Officers, but maybe not on such a huge scale.
(http://www.coursework.info/AS_and_A_Level/History/Modern_European_History__1789-1945/Why_did_Stalin_launch_the_Great_Terror_L117047.htm l)

Again this seems speculative and goes into the whole bourgeois narrative of comrade Stalin only wanting to surround himself with "yes men," to do his biddings.



And:
http://www.vectorsite.net/twsnow_01.html

Stalin found the Night of Long Knives inspirational, reputedly commenting: "Hitler, what a lad! Knows how to deal with political opponents!" However, Stalin's approach was a little more devious. Six months after the Night Of The Long Knives, on 1 December 1934, Kirov was assassinated by an OGPU agent named Leonid Nikolaev. Some sources suggest that Nikolaev had actually acted on his own and not on Stalin's orders, but if the murder was a spontaneous act, it was incredibly convenient for Stalin. When Bukharin was called on the phone and told of Kirov's murder, he put down the phone and said: "Now Koba will shoot us all."


I think the key word in this is reputedly. I find all of this very speculative and not conclusive atleast not enough to assert that Stalin was legitimately or genuinely inspired by the Night of the Long Knives and that a comparison between Hitler and Stalin could be drawn. I mean, I will grant you, alright, you didn't pull this out of your ass and you do have sources however it just appears to speculative at best.

[ComradeOm]

I can be corrected if I'm absolutely wrong but given how the USSR operated before and during Stalin assumed the role of General Secretary even if however many people died can Stalin really bare the collective guilt of this?And that is a valid point. It was not my intention to imply that Stalin alone is at fault here; obviously he was merely working within an entire collective leadership, and indeed state apparatus. Which is why I prefer to use the term the 'Stalinist state'

However Stalin's position within this state was right at the very top. He was, to an increasing degree from the late 1920s onwards, the undoubted leader (vozhd) of the USSR. He, and his close inner circle, had a hand in every major policy decision and must bear responsibility for the outcomes of these. And that's really the crux of the issue: these millions dead were not the product of random chance or 'excesses' at a lower level. No, they died because of policies pushed by Stalin and the rest of the Soviet leadership

The purges provide a perfect example. The campaign of terror could not have been unleashed without the approval of Stalin and his circle. They were actively involved - Stalin in signing warrants, Kaganovich et al touring the country - in the operational side of the mass executions. This was not something that happened without Stalin's input or knowledge

So I don't blame Stalin for the "tinsy, tiny little details". I blame the leadership for the policies that it pursued that resulted in the deaths of millions

[A Marxist Historian]

The consensus seems to be settling on a range of around 1.2 million executed, around 3-4 million died during deportations or in gulags and 3-7 million dead via famine. There's also the matter of Axis civilians and POWs deliberately killed during WW2 (probably hundreds of thousands) and some 100,000 retreating Soviet troops shot by the NKVD during the war.

Relevant literature

Getty, Rittersporn and Zemskov, (1993), Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years'.

Getty, (2002), The Road to Terror: Stalin and the Self-Destruction of the Bolsheviks'

Wheatcroft, (1996), The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings

Ellman (2002), Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments

For the famine see 'Davies, Harrison and Wheatcroft, (1993), The Economic Transformation of the Soviet Union' and 'Davies and Wheatcroft, (2004), The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933'

Well chosen sources. Particularly the Davies-Wheatcroft book on the famine of the early '30s, about which there are so many myths out there.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Sure. "The NKVD data themselves show that there are at least 1.4 million documented homicides in 1930-1939"...

http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/RSF-New_Evidence.pdf

Anyways, the 650,000 you sighted earlier is the number executed by the NKVD (according to their own statistics) between 1937-1938.

Also, the op might want to check the article out, since it has a neat graph showing the low to high end estimates of how many died.

This is an interesting piece but has to be read critically. The author's use of the term "homicide" is a bit on the loose side.

It's by Steven Rosenfielde. He and Wheatcroft are the two most well known and best demographers in the Soviet history field, which traditionally was divided into the "totalitarians" and the "revisionists," a sharp dichotomy that tended to break down after the collapse of the USSR.

Rosenfielde is the "totalitarian" and Wheatcroft the "revisionist." The real purpose of this article is his admission that his old estimates of the Soviet death toll were much too high, and that Wheatcroft was much closer to being right. He is still trying to make a rearguard effort to keep those figures as high as possible however.

Before taking all of his tables for good coin, it would be well to read Wheatcroft's response and look at *his* tables, and I have no doubt that he wrote one. Probably several in fact.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Yeah,i know.Trotskytes are well known for their compassion and tolerance towards those who don't agree with them...
*cough* *cough* Kronstadt *cough* *cough*
:laugh:

Suppressing the Kronstadt mutiny was necessary to defend Petrograd against the British navy.

Suppressing Stalin and his bastards was necessary to defend the Russian Revolution against counterrevolution. Lenin understood that, better than Trotsky in fact, but he died too young. So Russia is now capitalist.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Most sources I've seen for Italy itself assert that while Mussolini was the prototypical dictator, he rarely resorted to killing his opponents, preferring to jail them or have them tortured. Mussolini was a joke compared to Hitler and Stalin

Most of those sources, being bourgeois and more or less racist, ignore the mass murder Mussolini carried out in the Italian colonies, Libya and Ethiopia. Mussolini murdered millions of people in the most brutal possible fashion.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Beria was supposedly a sadist, who took pleasure in fulfilling any orders for executions he was assigned, and he routinely raped women. If anyone is more responsible than Stalin, it's Beria

The "supposer" who came up with all that stuff was Khrushchev, who had Beria murdered pretty much in cold blood at a Politburo meeting, so he had to spread stuff like that about him. Hey, it might have been all true, but given the source, you have to take it with a huge grain of salt.

Beria was the "reformer" brought in to replace Yezhov, who was supposedly going to bring justice for all the poor innocent victims murdered by Yezhov without Stalin's knowledge.

Fact is everything done by either Yezhov or Beria was under Stalin's total control.

-M.H.-

[Commissar Rykov]

Most of those sources, being bourgeois and more or less racist, ignore the mass murder Mussolini carried out in the Italian colonies, Libya and Ethiopia. Mussolini murdered millions of people in the most brutal possible fashion.

-M.H.-
Indeed, Ethiopia was almost literally gassed into submission.

[DarkPast]

I've not seen any evidence that "millions" were killed in Ethiopia. Maybe one million at most.

On the other hand, the UN Committee for investigation of war crimes had clear cases on more than 800 Italian war criminals, leading ones being generals Graziani and Badoglio. But already in 1946 the politics became more important than justice, and there was no intention of western Allies to let the Italian war criminals appear in front of courts in Etiopia, Yugoslavia or Greece. So we may never know the true extent of the Italian killings.

Unfortunately I've done little research on the actual numbers, but I have found out that the italian-american historian Michael Palumbo found documents in New York UN archives (Record Group 30) for which he claims confirm the Italian government under Mussolini was responsible for killing at least one million people (at least 300,000 in Ethiopia, around 300,000 in Yugoslavia, around 200,000 in Greece and roughly 200,000 in Libya, France, Albania and Russia). For what it's worth, his estimate for Yugoslavia seems to be on the high side in my opinion (though not impossible).

Now for the matter of Ethiopia. I must stress that have not read the following studies (so I can't vouch for any bias), but I have asked/looked around online for the number of victims they report:

Angelo Del Boca, (1965) "The Ethiopian War 1935-1941":

Battle Deaths: 275,000
Civilians killed by bombing: 17,800
Hunger: 300,000
Repression and concentration camps: 164,000
TOTAL: around 747,000

Alberto Sbacchi, (1985) "Ethiopia Under Mussolini", on the other hand, claims a far lower death toll (around 300,000) and most other interpretations seem to use this number.

Also there's a documentary that I have watched and would recommend, it's called "Fascist Legacy: A Promise Fulfilled".

Anyway, the conclusion is that even if we take the highest estimates and add the Italians killed in war or through repression (some 450,000-500,000) we get a number of around 1.9 million.


EDIT: Whoops, I accidentally listed bombings twice! Corrected now.

[A Marxist Historian]

I've not seen any evidence that "millions" were killed in Ethiopia. Maybe one million at most.

On the other hand, the UN Committee for investigation of war crimes had clear cases on more than 800 Italian war criminals, leading ones being generals Graziani and Badoglio. But already in 1946 the politics became more important than justice, and there was no intention of western Allies to let the Italian war criminals appear in front of courts in Etiopia, Yugoslavia or Greece. So we may never know the true extent of the Italian killings.

Unfortunately I've done little research on the actual numbers, but I have found out that the italian-american historian Michael Palumbo found documents in New York UN archives (Record Group 30) for which he claims confirm the Italian government under Mussolini was responsible for killing at least one million people (at least 300,000 in Ethiopia, around 300,000 in Yugoslavia, around 200,000 in Greece and roughly 200,000 in Libya, France, Albania and Russia). For what it's worth, his estimate for Yugoslavia seems to be on the high side in my opinion (though not impossible).

Now for the matter of Ethiopia. I must stress that have not read the following studies (so I can't vouch for any bias), but I have asked/looked around online for the number of victims they report:

Angelo Del Boca, (1965) "The Ethiopian War 1935-1941":

Battle Deaths: 275,000
Civilians killed by bombing: 17,000
Hunger: 300,000
Repression and concentration camps: 164,000
Civilians killed by air force: 17,800
TOTAL: around 764,000

Alberto Sbacchi, (1985) "Ethiopia Under Mussolini", on the other hand, claims a far lower death toll (around 300,000) and most other interpretations seem to use this number.

Also there's a documentary that I have watched and would recommend, it's called "Fascist Legacy: A Promise Fulfilled".

Anyway, the conclusion is that even if we take the highest estimates and add the Italians killed in war or through repression (some 450,000-500,000) we get a number of around 1.9 million.

Ethiopia was ugly, but the worst Italian atrocities weren't in Ethiopia, they were in Libya and are very little discussed. I'm sure that the numbers for Libya in that documentary are much too low. I've heard claims that Mussolini succeeded in reducing the population of Libya by as much of a third over the course of the two decades he ruled over the country.

Grand total numbers weren't on the Hitler scale, but that is only because Italy as an imperialist power just wasn't and isn't on the German scale.

-M.H.-

[DarkPast]

Ethiopia was ugly, but the worst Italian atrocities weren't in Ethiopia, they were in Libya and are very little discussed. I'm sure that the numbers for Libya in that documentary are much too low. I've heard claims that Mussolini succeeded in reducing the population of Libya by as much of a third over the course of the two decades he ruled over the country.

That's very interesting and I admit I haven't heard much about the Libyan killings. Do you happen to have any sources/scholarly works about the subject?


Grand total numbers weren't on the Hitler scale, but that is only because Italy as an imperialist power just wasn't and isn't on the German scale.

-M.H.-Well aside from the fact that Italy just wasn't as powerful as Germany, we should bear in mind several differences between Germany and Italy:

1. Italy surrendered in September 1943, which left only a rump state in Northern Italy under Mussolini's control (and then he was really just a puppet ruler). This ended the Italian rule in the Balkans (since these areas passed to German control), and the vast majority of the subsequent killings were done by the Germans and Ustaše. Interestingly, the Germans also killed more Italians than Mussolini's government!

2. Italy lost all it's colonies by mid 1943, which stopped the bloodiest repressions of the Italians (since they didn't repress Europeans as badly as Africans).

3. The Italians never had a system of extermination camps anywhere near the scale as the German one (they did have concentration camps of course, but those aren't the same thing). Which isn't surprising considering their ideology focused more on re-creating a Roman Empire than ensuring Nazi-style racial purity.

4. Support for Mussolini's regime was nowhere near the same as that for Hitler's, and his monopoly on power wasn't as absolute. That's also one of the reasons the Italian army performed so poorly - many soldiers simply didn't believe strongly in the fascist cause (particularly when it became obvious they were losing the war).

[deadsmooth]

If I become interested in this subject I would start with demographic studies involving census results, total population, birth rates, mortality rates, etc. then I would start with information from more political sources about numbers of deaths.

[Sir Comradical]

Recorded executions between 21 & 53.

799,455.

[Zostrianos]

Most of those sources, being bourgeois and more or less racist, ignore the mass murder Mussolini carried out in the Italian colonies, Libya and Ethiopia. Mussolini murdered millions of people in the most brutal possible fashion.
-M.H.-

Now that I can't argue with

[Rodrigo]

No, he ... repeatedly approved extensions of the violence and regional requests for increased executions. In preparation for the war, the Party certainly had to be purged of infiltrated enemies; nevertheless, Stalin warned against an arbitrary extension of the purge, which would harm the struggle against the real enemies. Source: Stalin's Report and Speech in Reply to Debate at the Plenum of the Central Committee of the C.P.S.U. What are your sources?
That he later reversed his position and ended the purges (note the demonstration of his power) does not change the fact that he played a crucial role in orchestrating the violence Violence is what opportunists wanted to do to socialism, like Bazhanov, Solomon, Frunze and Zinoviev, four terrorists. If more people were executed by people working in NKVD, as noted, it's not Stalin's fault. You pseudo-Marxists, defenders of "love and peace", think the government shouldn't do anything to people who plan or incite coups, realize assassinations -- like Kirov's murder¹ – and sabotage the party; shouldn't do anything to anti-Marxists, who badly used the name of the party, seeking personal benefits in detriment of the working people. "Love and peace" is the only insane things here, since it leads to the failure of communism.
This is inane. Just because it could probably put our beloved Lenin in a bad position, according to the point of view of a liberal or a pacifist? To hell with these kinds. About 220,000 members were expelled from the party, but it's not something to be ashamed of. Purges are necessary. Bad with them, worse without them (just look at what happened to China after Mao's death – the process of restoration of capitalism in USSR was much slower).
How many people in 'Lenin's purge' were executed or sent to concentration camps? Purges are simply expels from the party. Executions or imprisonments aren't part of a purge, it's something extra.
How many ordinary, non-party, citizens were similarly killed or imprisoned? A comparison between the two purges merely reveals the differences that the Soviet state had undergone in the intervening years Purges are taken only within the party. Your critique is nonsense.
No. The role of Stalin in the formulation, coordination and execution of the purges is relatively well established and documented. Almost anything you imagine is "established" or "documented". That's not an argument. In truth, the “well established” things are those which serve the bourgeoisie. And that's why anti-Stalin things are “well stablished”. But who has the better proof of something, a scientifical analysis closer to the real facts? Exactly the pro-Stalin documentation.
He signed off, at least, tens of thousands of death warrants and his approval was necessary for the entire operation. Then show us these tens of thousands of death warrants “approved by Stalin”!
Whatever Stalin said in public - and he can hardly be considered soft on the likes of "spies, wreckers, diversionists, and killers" - in private he was fully behind Yezhov's position and the methods of the NKVD No quotations marks there. It was proven the guilty of the Trotskyite-Zinovievite Bloc, just read documentation that's not worthless anticommunist bullshit. About Yezhov: Yezhov: Comrades as a result of the verification of party documents we expelled more than 200,000 members of the party. [My note: the same number of 1921 purges ] Stalin: [Interrupts] Very many. Yezhov: Yes very many. I will speak about this.. Stalin:[Interrupts] If we explained 30,000..(inaudible remark) and 600 former Trotskyites and Zinoviev-ists it would be a bigger victory. Yezhov: More than 200,000 members were expelled. Part of this number.. were arrested." Cited from Stenographic Records. Cited In A Stalinist Terror, New Perspectives."Ed. J.Arch Getty & Roberta T. Manning. Cambridge University Press, 1993. p.51). William Bill Bland spent the rest of his life trying to answer the question: “How had revisionism become ascendant?” Bland came to the conclusion that Stalin had been in a minority position in the Politburo, surrounded by hidden revisionists too clever to openly attack Marxism-Leninism; further, they had straight-jacketed Stalin by means of erecting the “Cult of Personality,” which was then used as a weapon against him. Bland felt that Yezhov had subverted the secret services, who had been replaced at Stalin’s behest by Beria. Bland pointed for example, to the release of many thousands of wrongly imprisoned Bolsheviks. Bland then argued that by the 18th Party Congress Stalin had been excluded from the highest echelons of the party decision making apparatus, and had counter-attacked with his pamphlet “Economic Problems of the USSR.” In February 1936 USSR Procurator Vyshinsky had complained to Stalin that NKVD officials were refusing to release prisoners whom procurators had ordered freed for lack of evidence. NKVD chief Yagoda had replied that procurators and courts were incompetent; procurators could "suggest" release of prisoners, but the decision should remain in the hands of the NKVD. On February 16th, Stalin wrote to Molotov, "Comrade Molotov: it seems to me that Vyshinsky is right." Getty & Naumov, The Road to Terror. New Haven, Conn.: Yale Univ. Press, c1999, p. 219 The Russian historian Boris Starkov has recently written that in Politburo meetings during August 1938 Zhdanov and Andreev stressed the poor quality of party cadres promoted during the mass repressions. Soon Kaganovich and Mikoyan joined them "against Yezhov." Then in the fall, according to Starkov, Stalin proposed replacing Yezhov with Malenkov. But the rest of the Politburo blocked the Gensec and insisted on Beria, though why is not clear. Thurston, Robert. Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia, 1934-1941. New Haven: Yale University Press, c1996, p. 131 ¹ Stalin refer to the murder of Kirov, #2 in the Bolshevik party: "The miscreant murder of comrade Kirov was the first serious warning of the double game of the enemies of the people and that, for this, they would disguise as Bolsheviks, as party members, to gain confidence and open ways to themselves in our organizations." (I.V. Stalin, Works, Izdátelstvo Pissátel, Moscow, 1997, tome 14, p. 151) Although one of the 1960 special commissions charged with investigating the Kirov assassination looked into the archives, it concluded that 166 delegates simply "did not take part in the voting." In 1989, there was another investigation into the 1934 voting that found that other surviving members of the ballot counting commission had contradicted Verkhovykh's ballot counting official who said in 1960 that 125 or 123 delegates voted against Stalin. He said that the embarrassing ballots were destroyed, and that the other members of the ballot commission knew of the destruction and falsification of the results story even back in 1960. They would have known of such a ballot discrepancy, and it was presumably safe for them to reveal the story in the first heyday of anti-Stalinism, but none of the other participants would confirm it. The 1989 investigation concluded that 166 ballots were indeed missing, but because the number of original paper ballots is unknown, "it is impossible definitely to confirm" how many may have voted against Stalin. The evidence is still inconclusive;...(Getty and Manning. Stalinist Terror. Cambridge, NY: Cambridge University Press, 1993, p. 46)

[EvilRedGuy]

I don't think Stalin cared who was in the NKVD and who he purged.

Life is just a dream for him, but shit for the workers.

[mrld1630]

I think we all can agree that Stalin was at least responsible for someone's death(s)... Even if he didn't sign the death warrants he was still head of a country where more people died than usual... That raises flags... Sorry to the Stalinists here but Stalin gives a bad name to Communists...

[∞]

Not even that much.

Stalinists are very strange people.

[ColonelCossack]

Not 20 million. Don't even look at anything that said that. it just isn't true.

If that's true, add that to the (27 million) dead in WWII. That's nearly 50 million- how could the Soviet Union have become a major superpower if that was the case?

[ColonelCossack]

Stalinists

What's a Stalinist?

[Die Rote Fahne]

What's a Stalinist?

A Stalinist is someone who is supportive of Stalin and his policies in the USSR, his theory of socialism in one country, and profess to be the true Marxist-Leninists.

[Ocean Seal]

I would say in before the jokes about Stalin killing the world populations 12 times over then hopping on his space scooter with Mao riding shotgun and killing all of the aliens in nearby solar systems.

[Commissar Rykov]

I believe Stalin killed over 9,000.

[RED DAVE]

In preparation for the war, the Party certainly had to be purged of infiltrated enemies; nevertheless, Stalin warned against an arbitrary extension of the purge, which would harm the struggle against the real enemies.Source: Stalin's Report and Speech in Reply to Debate at the Plenum of the Central Committee of the C.P.S.U. What are your sources? Violence is what opportunists wanted to do to socialism, like Bazhanov, Solomon, Frunze and Zinoviev, four terrorists. If more people were executed by people working in NKVD, as noted, it's not Stalin's fault. You pseudo-Marxists, defenders of "love and peace", think the government shouldn't do anything to people who plan or incite coups, realize assassinations -- like Kirov's murder¹ – and sabotage the party; shouldn't do anything to anti-Marxists, who badly used the name of the party, seeking personal benefits in detriment of the working people. "Love and peace" is the only insane things here, since it leads to the failure of communism. Just because it could probably put our beloved Lenin in a bad position, according to the point of view of a liberal or a pacifist? To hell with these kinds. About 220,000 members were expelled from the party, but it's not something to be ashamed of. Purges are necessary. Bad with them, worse without them (just look at what happened to China after Mao's death – the process of restoration of capitalism in USSR was much slower). Purges are simply expels from the party. Executions or imprisonments aren't part of a purge, it's something extra. Purges are taken only within the party. Your critique is nonsense. Almost anything you imagine is "established" or "documented". That's not an argument. In truth, the “well established” things are those which serve the bourgeoisie. And that's why anti-Stalin things are “well stablished”. But who has the better proof of something, a scientifical analysis closer to the real facts? Exactly the pro-Stalin documentation. Then show us these tens of thousands of death warrants “approved by Stalin”! No quotations marks there. It was proven the guilty of the Trotskyite-Zinovievite Bloc, just read documentation that's not worthless anticommunist bullshit. About Yezhov: Yezhov: Comrades as a result of the verification of party documents we expelled more than 200,000 members of the party. [My note: the same number of 1921 purges ] Stalin: [Interrupts] Very many. Yezhov: Yes very many. I will speak about this.. Stalin:[Interrupts] If we explained 30,000..(inaudible remark) and 600 former Trotskyites and Zinoviev-ists it would be a bigger victory. Yezhov: More than 200,000 members were expelled. Part of this number.. were arrested." Cited from Stenographic Records. Cited In A Stalinist Terror, New Perspectives."Ed. J.Arch Getty & Roberta T. Manning. Cambridge University Press, 1993. p.51). William Bill Bland spent the rest of his life trying to answer the question: “How had revisionism become ascendant?” Bland came to the conclusion that Stalin had been in a minority position in the Politburo, surrounded by hidden revisionists too clever to openly attack Marxism-Leninism; further, they had straight-jacketed Stalin by means of erecting the “Cult of Personality,” which was then used as a weapon against him. Bland felt that Yezhov had subverted the secret services, who had been replaced at Stalin’s behest by Beria. Bland pointed for example, to the release of many thousands of wrongly imprisoned Bolsheviks. Bland then argued that by the 18th Party Congress Stalin had been excluded from the highest echelons of the party decision making apparatus, and had counter-attacked with his pamphlet “Economic Problems of the USSR.” In February 1936 USSR Procurator Vyshinsky had complained to Stalin that NKVD officials were refusing to release prisoners whom procurators had ordered freed for lack of evidence. NKVD chief Yagoda had replied that procurators and courts were incompetent; procurators could "suggest" release of prisoners, but the decision should remain in the hands of the NKVD. On February 16th, Stalin wrote to Molotov, "Comrade Molotov: it seems to me that Vyshinsky is right." Getty & Naumov, The Road to Terror. New Haven, Conn.: Yale Univ. Press, c1999, p. 219 The Russian historian Boris Starkov has recently written that in Politburo meetings during August 1938 Zhdanov and Andreev stressed the poor quality of party cadres promoted during the mass repressions. Soon Kaganovich and Mikoyan joined them "against Yezhov." Then in the fall, according to Starkov, Stalin proposed replacing Yezhov with Malenkov. But the rest of the Politburo blocked the Gensec and insisted on Beria, though why is not clear. Thurston, Robert. Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia, 1934-1941. New Haven: Yale University Press, c1996, p. 131 ¹ Stalin refer to the murder of Kirov, #2 in the Bolshevik party: "The miscreant murder of comrade Kirov was the first serious warning of the double game of the enemies of the people and that, for this, they would disguise as Bolsheviks, as party members, to gain confidence and open ways to themselves in our organizations." (I.V. Stalin, Works, Izdátelstvo Pissátel, Moscow, 1997, tome 14, p. 151) Although one of the 1960 special commissions charged with investigating the Kirov assassination looked into the archives, it concluded that 166 delegates simply "did not take part in the voting." In 1989, there was another investigation into the 1934 voting that found that other surviving members of the ballot counting commission had contradicted Verkhovykh's ballot counting official who said in 1960 that 125 or 123 delegates voted against Stalin. He said that the embarrassing ballots were destroyed, and that the other members of the ballot commission knew of the destruction and falsification of the results story even back in 1960. They would have known of such a ballot discrepancy, and it was presumably safe for them to reveal the story in the first heyday of anti-Stalinism, but none of the other participants would confirm it. The 1989 investigation concluded that 166 ballots were indeed missing, but because the number of original paper ballots is unknown, "it is impossible definitely to confirm" how many may have voted against Stalin. The evidence is still inconclusive;...(Getty and Manning. Stalinist Terror. Cambridge, NY: Cambridge University Press, 1993, p. 46) It all comes down to an innocent man freezing to death in the gulag and an ice pick in Coyoacan.

RED DAVE

[Zostrianos]

Here's how many people Stalin killed: too many.

[Kornilios Sunshine]

Here's how many people Stalin killed: too many.
Here is how many lies have been told in this thread : too many.One example is the quoted post.

[Rooster]

Here is how many lies have been told in this thread : too many.One example is the quoted post.

How can you even class that as a lie? Are you saying the truth is that not enough were killed?

[ComradeOm]

In preparation for the war, the Party certainly had to be purged of infiltrated enemies...And we know that the Party was full of "infiltrated enemies", etc, because...? Oh wait, Stalin said so. Yes, he insisted that all those people whose deaths he had a hand in were traitors who had to be shot. And that there were forced confessions extracted through torture to back him up. Wow, it's really a good thing that that's the case, no? Otherwise almost a million people might have been executed who weren't actually traitors or counter-revolutionaries at all. That would have been embarrassing for Uncle Joe


...Stalin warned against an arbitrary extension of the purge, which would harm the struggle against the real enemiesHe also championed the extension of the purges behind closed doors and repeatedly supported the extension of the violence by regional bodies. This is where we arrive at the inconvenient fact that what Stalin said in public wasn't always true

Shocking, I know


What are your sources?For that particular claim I'll give Getty, (2010), The Road to Terror. It's a good introduction to the political processes that lay behind the purges. Note that it wasn't actually written by Stalin



If more people were executed by people working in NKVD, as noted, it's not Stalin's faultEven when he signed the death warrants and approved the policies? That seems strange


You pseudo-Marxists, defenders of "love and peace", think the government shouldn't do anything to people who plan or incite coups, realize assassinations -- like Kirov's murder¹ – and sabotage the party; shouldn't do anything to anti-Marxists, who badly used the name of the party, seeking personal benefits in detriment of the working people. "Love and peace" is the only insane things here, since it leads to the failure of communism. Just because it could probably put our beloved Lenin in a bad position, according to the point of view of a liberal or a pacifist? To hell with these kinds. About 220,000 members were expelled from the party, but it's not something to be ashamed of. Purges are necessary. Bad with them, worse without them (just look at what happened to China after Mao's death – the process of restoration of capitalism in USSR was much slower). Purges are simply expels from the party. Executions or imprisonments aren't part of a purge, it's something extra. Purges are taken only within the party. Your critique is nonsense. Almost anything you imagine is "established" or "documented". That's not an argument. In truth, the “well established” things are those which serve the bourgeoisie. And that's why anti-Stalin things are “well stablished”. But who has the better proof of something, a scientifical analysis closer to the real facts? Exactly the pro-Stalin documentation. Then show us these tens of thousands of death warrants “approved by Stalin”! No quotations marks there. It was proven the guilty of the Trotskyite-Zinovievite Bloc, just read documentation that's not worthless anticommunist bullshit. About Yezhov: Yezhov: Comrades as a result of the verification of party documents we expelled more than 200,000 members of the party. [My note: the same number of 1921 purges ] Stalin: [Interrupts] Very many. Yezhov: Yes very many. I will speak about this.. Stalin:[Interrupts] If we explained 30,000..(inaudible remark) and 600 former Trotskyites and Zinoviev-ists it would be a bigger victory. Yezhov: More than 200,000 members were expelled. Part of this number.. were arrested." Cited from Stenographic Records. Cited In A Stalinist Terror, New Perspectives."Ed. J.Arch Getty & Roberta T. Manning. Cambridge University Press, 1993. p.51). William Bill Bland spent the rest of his life trying to answer the question: “How had revisionism become ascendant?” Bland came to the conclusion that Stalin had been in a minority position in the Politburo, surrounded by hidden revisionists too clever to openly attack Marxism-Leninism; further, they had straight-jacketed Stalin by means of erecting the “Cult of Personality,” which was then used as a weapon against him. Bland felt that Yezhov had subverted the secret services, who had been replaced at Stalin’s behest by Beria. Bland pointed for example, to the release of many thousands of wrongly imprisoned Bolsheviks. Bland then argued that by the 18th Party Congress Stalin had been excluded from the highest echelons of the party decision making apparatus, and had counter-attacked with his pamphlet “Economic Problems of the USSR.” In February 1936 USSR Procurator Vyshinsky had complained to Stalin that NKVD officials were refusing to release prisoners whom procurators had ordered freed for lack of evidence. NKVD chief Yagoda had replied that procurators and courts were incompetent; procurators could "suggest" release of prisoners, but the decision should remain in the hands of the NKVD. On February 16th, Stalin wrote to Molotov, "Comrade Molotov: it seems to me that Vyshinsky is right." Getty & Naumov, The Road to Terror. New Haven, Conn.: Yale Univ. Press, c1999, p. 219 The Russian historian Boris Starkov has recently written that in Politburo meetings during August 1938 Zhdanov and Andreev stressed the poor quality of party cadres promoted during the mass repressions. Soon Kaganovich and Mikoyan joined them "against Yezhov." Then in the fall, according to Starkov, Stalin proposed replacing Yezhov with Malenkov. But the rest of the Politburo blocked the Gensec and insisted on Beria, though why is not clear. Thurston, Robert. Life and Terror in Stalin's Russia, 1934-1941. New Haven: Yale University Press, c1996, p. 131 ¹ Stalin refer to the murder of Kirov, #2 in the Bolshevik party: "The miscreant murder of comrade Kirov was the first serious warning of the double game of the enemies of the people and that, for this, they would disguise as Bolsheviks, as party members, to gain confidence and open ways to themselves in our organizations." (I.V. Stalin, Works, Izdátelstvo Pissátel, Moscow, 1997, tome 14, p. 151) Although one of the 1960 special commissions charged with investigating the Kirov assassination looked into the archives, it concluded that 166 delegates simply "did not take part in the voting." In 1989, there was another investigation into the 1934 voting that found that other surviving members of the ballot counting commission had contradicted Verkhovykh's ballot counting official who said in 1960 that 125 or 123 delegates voted against Stalin. He said that the embarrassing ballots were destroyed, and that the other members of the ballot commission knew of the destruction and falsification of the results story even back in 1960. They would have known of such a ballot discrepancy, and it was presumably safe for them to reveal the story in the first heyday of anti-Stalinism, but none of the other participants would confirm it. The 1989 investigation concluded that 166 ballots were indeed missing, but because the number of original paper ballots is unknown, "it is impossible definitely to confirm" how many may have voted against Stalin. The evidence is still inconclusive;...(Getty and Manning. Stalinist Terror. Cambridge, NY: Cambridge University Press, 1993, p. 46)Well that's incoherent. You want to come back to me when you've got something more than a poorly formatted cut-and-paste job? Like, say, a structured thought or argument?

[RedMarxist]

I'd say from 1 million to 1.5 million, if not 2 million according to The Red Flag: a history of Communism

I wouldn't trust it, but the Stalin society(hint: it is biased) says most of those victims were murders, rapists, and people trying to uproot the government from within(counter-revolutionaries).

[seventeethdecember2016]

No more than the political and military murders which were to support his own interests.

The Great Purge is an example of this.

I can care less for executions done for the betterment of the state, but I have real problems when it is for personal gain.
Far too much is blamed on Stalin. Kalinin, Kaganovich, and other high ranking Bureaucrats should also be blamed too.

Stalin is responsible for 600,000 deaths +/- 200,000.

[m-l Power]

The capitalist medias, when the URSS was still constituted, repeated again and again that when the URSS fell, we were going to see in the "secret files" of the KGB and Soviet Estate that all what they had been sayed (all about the high number of victims, you know) was definetly true.

Well, when Gorbachov opened this files in 1993, this files had a little media coverage. ¿Why? Well, read by yourselves and you will see. Only in some historical magazines was published the new, in France and USA.

The numbers that we heard in the present, are still the sames that we could heard before of the Second World War.

[Franz Fanonipants]

A dead dude killed equivalent amounts of people to his nearest neighbor during a spasm of violence.

Revleft REACTS

[Die Rote Fahne]

Here is how many lies have been told in this thread : too many.One example is the quoted post.
Your apologism for the inexcusable actions of a power mad dictator is sickening.

[tir1944]

The way your stomach reacts to facts is irrelevant to us now,what matters is historical proof,evidence,in short-the truth.
For 50+ years thousands upon thousands of slanderous lies were vomited against Stalin and Stalin's USSR,but as he himself said,the Wind of History is slowly starting to sweep that trash away...

[Rooster]

slanderous lies

Which were lies and how can you prove it?

[tir1944]

Which were lies and how can you prove it?
Dunno,let's start with the Black book of Communism?
A good number of "historical works" uses it as primary reference anyway.:laugh:
Do i really have to "prove" that this BBoC is bullshit?

[ComradeOm]

Here's a philosophical question. Which is the more abhorrent: mistakenly arguing that the Stalinist regime killed twice as many as it actually did, or consistently denying that millions ever died under it?

[Rooster]

Dunno,let's start with the Black book of Communism?

Who here used that?

[Rodrigo]

And we know that the Party was full of "infiltrated enemies", etc, because...? Oh wait, Stalin said so. Yes, he insisted that all those people whose deaths he had a hand in were traitors who had to be shot. And that there were forced confessions extracted through torture to back him up. Wow, it's really a good thing that that's the case, no? Otherwise almost a million people might have been executed who weren't actually traitors or counter-revolutionaries at all. That would have been embarrassing for Uncle Joe

He also championed the extension of the purges behind closed doors and repeatedly supported the extension of the violence by regional bodies. This is where we arrive at the inconvenient fact that what Stalin said in public wasn't always true

Shocking, I know

For that particular claim I'll give Getty, (2010), The Road to Terror. It's a good introduction to the political processes that lay behind the purges. Note that it wasn't actually written by Stalin


Even when he signed the death warrants and approved the policies? That seems strange

Well that's incoherent. You want to come back to me when you've got something more than a poorly formatted cut-and-paste job? Like, say, a structured thought or argument?

It happens everytime I copy anythime written in a LibreOffice's Writer (the software I use for typing) document. Sometimes I start answering a post, thread, etc. in LibreOffice and end up just pasting the content to my reply.

You want to come back to me when you've got more than words at the wind? Like, say, evidences or something? I've already put mine. :rolleyes:

[kurr]

10 billion. does it matter?! stalin was evil and power hungry. genuine communists, anarchists, and socialists were slaughtered under his rule! not to mention many members of the working class!

[ComradeOm]

It happens everytime I copy anythime written in a LibreOffice's Writer (the software I use for typing) document. Sometimes I start answering a post, thread, etc. in LibreOffice and end up just pasting the content to my replyI wasn't talking about the formatting


You want to come back to me when you've got more than words at the wind? Like, say, evidences or something? I've already put mine. :rolleyes:I've already mentioned Getty's work, which I unfortunately don't have to hand. Thankfully I've already quoted one passage elsewhere:

"There is clear documentary evidence that the sins now attributed to the NKVD were encouraged, if not ordered, by Stalin himself. The 'mass operations', slipshod procuratorial controls, forced confessions and the rest were part of high policy that did not originate with the NKVD" Getty, Road to Terror

You might also try Ellman's Stalin and the 1932-33 Famine Revisited where he roundly condemns Stalin for "personally signing 357 proscription lists in 1937 – 38 for more than 40,000 people in total (of whom about 90% were shot). Stalin was the person who ordered mass deportations and shootings of the inhabitants of the newly acquired territories in 1939 – 41"

But then I challenge you to go though any work by a proper historian and show me where "proven the guilty of the Trotskyite-Zinovievite Bloc". Or whatever that means. Show me the proof that there existed, as Stalin alleged, some "left-right, Trotskyist-Bukharinist, German-Japanese-British-Polish spy ring"

Edit: Might as well mention that the notion of Stalin as some sort of 'prisoner of the Politburo' is beyond ridiculous. Wheatcroft (From Team-Stalin to Degenerate Tyranny) has shown how it was Stalin's personal office - not the increasingly sidelined Politburo - that formed the real nexus of power in the Soviet state. But then Wheatcroft isn't an obscure Hoxhaist so he probably isn't qualified to comment... oh well

Seriously, you talk to me about sources and then have the gall to produce Bill Bland? That's the last that I'll bother to pick anything out from that drivel

[Commissar Rykov]

This is what I don't get I have no problem of people defending the ideological line of Marxism-Leninism but why do you have to defend the excesses of Stalin and the Soviet State during that time? What does that remotely accomplish?

[ComradeOm]

They're one and the same. The entire ideological framework of Stalinism is built on the correctness of Stalin's line. That's the ultimate justification for the undeniable crimes of the USSR: Stalin was right and his actions were necessary to safeguard socialism. If you question this - by, say, accepting that many of the executed were actually innocent and should have been spared - then the whole thing falls apart. Suddenly you're presented with a scenario in which all the crises that plagued the USSR weren't the product of kulaks and traitors after all. Maybe there were flaws in the system and the incorrect policies pursued? And if Stalin line wasn't correct then how can we justify the murders of those who dissented from it?

To accept that Stalin and his allies were guilty of these crimes is to accept that the USSR may not have been socialist at all. And if that possibility is admitted then why would anyone defend him or his line? So we get the same denialism and scapegoating that we've been getting since the 1930s. It was called the Stalin cult for a reason

[Bostana]

Well it all depends on how biased you are. If your really biased and gullible you'll believe in Western Media and believe he killed more than the population of Kazakhstan!!! If your smart you can tell this is a lie beyond epic proportions. (Plus it's been proven wrong) Stalin did what most leaders would do if someone threaten to kill a member of their party, or threaten the lives of innocent soldiers.

[Commissar Rykov]

Well it all depends on how biased you are. If your really biased and gullible you'll believe in Western Media and believe he killed more than the population of Kazakhstan!!! If your smart you can tell this is a lie beyond epic proportions. (Plus it's been proven wrong) Stalin did what most leaders would do if someone threaten to kill a member of their party, or threaten the lives of innocent soldiers.
Kill almost every original member of the Revolution? That seems like a strange measure unless one wishes to write their own history.

[Comrade Marcel]

Stalin killed no one, at least he was never convicted of killing anyone, which he may have during his youth as a young bandit.

[Comrade Marcel]

Roughly 650,000 died because of Stalin.

No, they did not. I doubt you could even show that number died during his era let alone because of him.

[Agent Equality]

Stalin killed no one, at least he was never convicted of killing anyone, which he may have during his youth as a young bandit.

Of course he didn't kill anyone. Just like I'm sure Hitler never killed anyone either or Mao. Why the fucking fuck would he EVER be convicted? He was the absolute dictator of the FSU and head of its ruling bureaucracy. His word was law - literally.



No, they did not. I doubt you could even show that number died during his era let alone because of him.

Well how could they? Glorious Comrade Stalin, god of socialism, is completely infallible and his spirit lives on in all true anti-revisionist communists today to guide them on the path of socialist righteousness. There is no way Glorious Comrade Stalin could have done anything even remotely bad or fallible seeing as how he is divine!

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Some people Stalin killed

Nicolai Bukharin
Karl Radek
Grigori Zinoviev
Lev Kamevev
Alexie Rykov
Nikilai Kondratieff
Mikhail Pokrofsky


On and on, tens of thousands more. Virtually the entire Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party under Lenin was killed. Look up any Bolshevik on wikipedia. You may notice that their life always ends in the 1930s, for some strange reason.

Stalin was a monster and was the "gravedigger of the revolution" as many have said.. It wasn't Stalin by himself of course but the parasitical bureaucratic dictatorship which leeched off the worker's state, finally strangling it.

[A Marxist Historian]

Dunno,let's start with the Black book of Communism?
A good number of "historical works" uses it as primary reference anyway.:laugh:
Do i really have to "prove" that this BBoC is bullshit?

Why no. That book was full of lies, vs. Lenin at least as much as vs. Stalin, if not more.

But the irrefutable facts are that Stalin destroyed the Bolshevik Party of Lenin, and that in the Great Terror of 1937 and 1938 which Stalin ordered and arranged, some 650,000 people were executed, according to the NKVD's own secret files!

If Lenin had still been alive then and in Russia, he would have been the first to be executed as a "counterrevolutionary fascist agent." As almost all of his friends and assistants were, including almost the entire Central Committee when he was the leader of Soviet Russia.

Which is why whenever Stalinists like you call yourselves "Marxist Leninists" you are lying like rugs.

-M.H.-

[DarkPast]

Some people Stalin killed

Nicolai Bukharin
Karl Radek
Grigori Zinoviev
Lev Kamevev
Alexie Rykov
Nikilai Kondratieff
Mikhail Pokrofsky


On and on, tens of thousands more. Virtually the entire Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party under Lenin was killed. Look up any Bolshevik on wikipedia. You may notice that their life always ends in the 1930s, for some strange reason.

Stalin was a monster and was the "gravedigger of the revolution" as many have said.. It wasn't Stalin by himself of course but the parasitical bureaucratic dictatorship which leeched off the worker's state, finally strangling it.

http://www.warchat.org/pictures/russian_civil_war_1918-1920_the_central_committee_of_communist_party.jpg

The death of all whose name is in red can one way or another be traced to Stalin and his closest colleagues.

P.S. Joffe's suicide is connected to the decision of the Stalinist leadership of the Communist Party to send him abroad for treatment, as well as Trotsky's expulsion from the Party (the two were good friends). So yet another death that can be pinned on Stalin.

[Red Rabbit]

Stalin was a pretty cool guy. eh killed reactionaries and didn't afraid of anything

[RedMarxist]

People who defend Joseph Stalin and his crimes against humanity give Leninism a bad name-a very, very bad name indeed.

Stop it!

How can you people honestly justify the purges, the accelerated rise of the bureaucracy, the horrendous policies that Stalin ushered in that ended equality and rewarded those at the top with luxuries that most people in Russia had no way of obtaining themselves...

[Die Rote Fahne]

The way your stomach reacts to facts is irrelevant to us now,what matters is historical proof,evidence,in short-the truth.
For 50+ years thousands upon thousands of slanderous lies were vomited against Stalin and Stalin's USSR,but as he himself said,the Wind of History is slowly starting to sweep that trash away...
Cool story bro. If you seriously believe Stalin wasn't a tyrant, you're batshit. Stalinism has been swept away into the dustbin of history. It will never again plague the working class.

[tir1944]

Yes,maybe i really crazy.Maybe the millions of Russians and others are crazy too,i don't know...
And Stalin definitely hasn't been swept in the dustbin of history.The number of Stalinists in Russia is probably greater than the total number of letists in the whole Western world...

http://photos.upi.com/story/t/a69e2a4f05d227f83b029ece185fcd98/Siberian-city-wont-house-Stalin-monument.jpg

[disbeliever]

I`m quite confused, how many did Stalin kill?

Too many.

[tir1944]

Too many. No,on the contrary.He didn't purge enough.:)
As Hoxha said to N.Khruschev (paraphrasing) :"Stalin's first error was not getting rid of you!".;)

[Искра]

Yes,maybe i really crazy.Maybe the millions of Russians and others are crazy too,i don't know...
And Stalin definitely hasn't been swept in the dustbin of history.The number of Stalinists in Russia is probably greater than the total number of letists in the whole Western world...

http://photos.upi.com/story/t/a69e2a4f05d227f83b029ece185fcd98/Siberian-city-wont-house-Stalin-monument.jpg

Of course, because Stalinism is an ideology of Russian nationalism. Also, do you consider one crasy women with Stalin picture a proof to your statemant?

If my logic was as "briliant" as yours I could conlude that Croatians and Slovenians are still Titoists:

http://www.skriveno.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/175250-300x225.jpg

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yes,maybe i really crazy.Maybe the millions of Russians and others are crazy too,i don't know...
And Stalin definitely hasn't been swept in the dustbin of history.The number of Stalinists in Russia is probably greater than the total number of letists in the whole Western world...

http://photos.upi.com/story/t/a69e2a4f05d227f83b029ece185fcd98/Siberian-city-wont-house-Stalin-monument.jpg

You ignore the fact that many of those in current-day Russia who support Stalin do so out of nationalist instinct, from the 'great man of history' side of things, rather than anything to do with actual working-class emancipation.

But yeah, don't mind us, you get on with your daily prayers to O' moustached one.

[tir1944]

Of course, because Stalinism is an ideology of Russian nationalism.
No.Since when does Pamyat or similar organization refer to Stalin as its "ideologue"?
Stop lying.


Also, do you consider one crasy women with Stalin picture a proof to your statemant?
No,but the fact that Stalin has been voted the 3rd greatest Russian in history (even with vote rigging).:laugh:
There's numerous polls on how Russians see Stalin,google and see for yourself.


If my logic was as "briliant" as yours I could conlude that Croatians are still Titoists:
Again,google on why do Russians still love Stalin.

[tir1944]

You ignore the fact that many of those in current-day Russia who support Stalin do so out of nationalist instinct, from the 'great man of history' side of things, rather than anything to do with actual working-class emancipation.
And how exactly do you know all this?


But yeah, don't mind us, you get on with your daily prayers to O' moustached one.
Gramhwhammramhrambramram

[Искра]

Tir you fail to see what nationalism really is :)

[Искра]

In ex-Yugoslavia one director made a movie which was making fun of „IB's“ – people who supported resolution of Informbiro. Main character is an old Stalinist in Yugoslavia and he’s completely crazy and paranoid. He believes that his neighbour is Western spy so he is following him everywhere he goes etc. At the end he captures him and puts him up to questioning. This is the best scene from this movie and here’s my translation of this dialog.

mEn-L9-PObc

“You didn’t like when we were all equal and when all these divisions between people didn’t exist! War wasn’t over but you still come back with your earned capital! After you another 1000! After them another 1000! So, that you all can start to build castles and forts again and repress and destroy people! Isn’t it?! So, did they put me in jail just because they were forcing me to believe and they don’t lock you up because of what we were fighting for? Motherfuckers! What does that mean? Does that mean that all my life I was a fool who worked against its principles, that I was all the time on wrong side?! Does that mean that? So, did they lock me up just because I was screaming: LONG LIVE STALIN AND WORLDS REVOLUTION! Did you lock me up for that?! What was I supposed to scream? LONG LIVE CAPITALIMS?! Listen you, Stalin was killing you but he wasn’t killing you enough! I used to have his picture on my wall like an icon for five years and I’ll have it again! You won’t win until I’m alive!”.

So, yeah what was point of this?

The point is how silly your Stalinists look like when you are defending genocides and mass murders. Too many people died and too much blood was spilled in the name of “communism”, “revolution” and “freedom” and at the end we all still have capitalism. Stalinism is, as one user pointed, at the bottom of shithole of history. This strategy failed every time that it was put into practice and resulted with mass murders and genocides which put one liberating idea and taught such as Marxism shoulder to shoulder with fascism. Get a grip people and say hello to 21st century.

[ColonelCossack]

easily:

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99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 da fok?

[tir1944]

Tir you fail to see what nationalism really is :)
Englighten me then.



In ex-Yugoslavia one director made a movie which was making fun of „IB's“ – people who supported resolution of Informbiro. Main character is an old Stalinist in Yugoslavia and he’s completely crazy and paranoid.
Don't be such a philistine.
That movie is depeer than "making fun" of IBs...

[tir1944]

The point is how silly your Stalinists look like when you are defending genocides and mass murders. Who's defending genocides and mass murders?


Too many people died and too much blood was spilled in the name of “communism”, “revolution” and “freedom” and at the end we all still have capitalism.Yes,and that's a historical tragedy.However you have already turned it into a farce.


Stalinism is, as one user pointed, at the bottom of shithole of history. That's your opinion to which you're entitled,however millions would disagree.


This strategy failed every time that it was put into practice and resulted with mass murders and genocides which put one liberating idea and taught such as Marxism shoulder to shoulder with fascism.You sounds like some libertarian.That's their standard reply,along with the "human nature".


Get a grip people and say hello to 21st century. Hello 21st century.

[Искра]

That movie is depeer than "making fun" of IBs... Yeah, it's anti-Stalinist and anti-Titoist movie. Director is using "black humor" to show how stupid they are. All Stalinists in movie have Stalin mustaches, same suit etc. Main character is driving Russian car and buying only Russian equipment. He has Stalin picture and two Russian guns hidden in his basement under a pile of coal. Scene in which main character and his brother dug out Stalin picture from coal is only erotic scene in the movie, because of look on their faces when they look at Stalin’s picture with fanatical admiration. In this monolog I translated main character compared Stalin’s picture to orthodox religious icons. Also, at the beginning of the movie he was called up by police as all other IB’s were on informal interrogation to tell them what is he doing now. Police detective asked him about his neighbor, so main character thought that he must be a Western spy. Of course, movie is making decent humorous critics of decadent Yugoslav society in its final years as people who main character is stalking represent upper classes. Still, one question to you: could you film an anti-Stalinist movie in USSR?

[tir1944]

Yeah, it's anti-Stalinist and anti-Titoist movie.
According to you.
But,IMO,art can be interpreted in different ways.
BŠ obviously isn't some propagandist flick-movie,and i tend to see it in a different way.But whatever.Let's get back to the topic,ok?

[Rooster]

On top of the NKVD killings, you can also attribute a majority of the deaths during the famine of 1932-1933 to the poor policies of ruling strata.

[tir1944]

you can also attribute a majority of the deaths during the famine of 1932-1933 to the poor policies of ruling strata.
Among a plethora of other things,yes...:rolleyes:
No one denies that mistakes were made.

[Искра]

Actually this is on topic as I used work of art to express certain criticism on subject of this topic and development of this discussion.


To me it’s kind of pointless that such discussions repeat all the time. Obviously, people who are Stalinist will never accept contra-arguments (as we could see here, Tir1944 doesn’t even recognise anti-Stalinist movie as such) and will live in their little utopias of “Marxist-Leninists scientific methods”.


By uncritically supporting Stalin you support genocides and mass murders made by him intentionally (for example purges, ethnical cleansing etc.) or made by his bad politics (hungers, Ukraine, collaboration with Nazi’s, division of Poland, imperialism etc). Your views of Stalin are as director of that movie said – you worship him like an orthodox icon.


Also, you are not accepting the fact that Stalinist strategy is full of flaws and worthless, because every experiment ended up same way. Intelligent people, when they see that they get shit results every time – change tactics. But yeah, it’s easier to hide your ignorance behind a wall of rhetorical finesses, hysterical accusations and forum trolling. Just like this monolog in a movie pointed out;)

[Rooster]

Among a plethora of other things,yes...:rolleyes:
No one denies that mistakes were made.

But people deny that there was a deliberate attempt at suppressing the peasants as a class which lead directly to the deaths of millions.

[Rooster]

behind a wall of rhetorical finesses

I wouldn't call "cool story, bro" rhetorical finesses.

[tir1944]

Also, you are not accepting the fact that Stalinist strategy is full of flaws and worthless, because every experiment ended up same way.
Says an anarchist.:rolleyes:
Dude do you really can't see how this can easily be turned against your ideology too?
Please,spare us such dishonest "argumentations".



By uncritically supporting Stalin you support genocides and mass murders made by him intentionally (for example purges, ethnical cleansing etc.) or made by his bad politics (hungers, Ukraine, collaboration with Nazi’s, division of Poland, imperialism etc). Your views of Stalin are as director of that movie said – you worship him like an orthodox icon.
I don't uncritically support Stalin,as i've previously stated.
I don't support genocides or mass murder.The purges can't be qualified as "mass murders".I also recognize that Stalin made mistakes.
But think before writing rubbish such as "Stalin's imperialism" or whatever.
Also it's quite stupid to try "teach" someone on what he/she "worships".Get over yourself for fuck's sake.



But people deny that there was a deliberate attempt at suppressing the peasants as a class which lead directly to the deaths of millions.
No such thing as peasants as a class.
There was an attempt,however,at suppressing KULAKS as a class.


I wouldn't call "cool story, bro" rhetorical finesses.

It's not as bad as calling someone a worshiper of icons.It's less dishonest.

[Commissar Rykov]

Among a plethora of other things,yes...:rolleyes:
No one denies that mistakes were made.
Nice you almost literally quoted Reagan about the Iran-Contra affair. Mistakes were made...classic. No blame is given but a problem is identified.

[Искра]

Says an anarchist.:rolleyes:
Dude do you really can't see how this can easily be turned against your ideology too?
Please,spare us such dishonest "argumentations".

I’m not an anarchist. Did that ruin whole your argumentation? Please don’t cry.


Unlike your “one-line-sentence-with-no-sense” style of “argumentation”, my argumentation is based on empirical evidences. Or should I start: USSR, China, Yugoslavia, Albania, Mongolia.... Same strategy – same results.


I don't uncritically support Stalin,as i've previously stated.
I don't support genocides or mass murder.The purges can't be qualified as "mass murders".I also recognize that Stalin made mistakes.
But think before writing rubbish such as "Stalin's imperialism" or whatever.
Also it's quite stupid to try "teach" someone on what he/she "worships".Get over yourself for fuck's sake.

So, you are still in denial? If you kill whole bunch of people what is that if not mass murder? I can even say that its organised mass murder since state provided whole logistic and organised how to get rid of “unwanted elements”.


You have problem with “Stalin’s imperialism”? Me too, as it looks really bad under a banner of “communism”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

Also, we can continue with Soviet economical exploitation of Eastern Bloc in post-war Europe, or division of World with Western Allies.


No such thing as peasants as a class.
There was an attempt,however,at suppressing KULAKS as a class.
Peasants are class, of course. Read some Marx, honey bee. “Two class concept” is just used to describe capitalism better and also to show which two classes are in “arch enemies”.


It's not as bad as calling someone a worshiper of icons.It's less dishonest.
Oh, please spare us of your drama and try to provide some arguments instead of your “one-line-sentence-with-no-sense” trolling.

[tir1944]

I’m not an anarchist. Did that ruin whole your argumentation? Please don’t cry.
No.Anarchists at least had Barcelona,left-coms had the Bavarian Soviet Republic.



Unlike your “one-line-sentence-with-no-sense” style of “argumentation”, my argumentation is based on empirical evidences.
What evidence?


You have problem with “Stalin’s imperialism”? Me too, as it looks really bad under a banner of “communism”.
Imperialism is,again,the highest stage of capitalism and bla bla bla.
The Winter was the result of Finland,backed by the West,refusing to give small concessions in exchange for a teritory several times bigger,and the "invasion" of Poland was the liberation of Belarus and Ukraine Poland had occupied in the late 1910s/early 20s.
But that's not "Imperialism".



Peasants are class, of course.
They are?


Read some Marx, honey bee
How about giving some links,sweetpies?


Oh, please spare us of your drama and try to provide some arguments instead of your “one-line-sentence-with-no-sense” trolling.
Lol and you calling me an "icon worshiper" ain't trolling? Nice try son.

[ComradeOm]

The Winter was the result of Finland,backed by the West,refusing to give small concessions in exchange for a teritory several times bigger...This is great. Large nation presents demand to small nation; small nation refuses and large nation subsequently invades. Your response to this is to blame the small nation for having the gall to reject the demand on the basis that it was generous?

Which leads to two further questions. Have you ever heard of something called the 'right of nations to self-determination'? And why are you still here?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Stalin's government ethnically cleansed Chechens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29), Kalmyks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_people#World_War_II_and_exile) and other minority groups. Tens of thousands of innocent people died as they were herded into cattle cars or were mistreated by the agents sent to take them from their home. This was collective punishment against ethnic groups, and should not be seen as acceptable. That seems like a pretty solid proof that Stalin's government killed innocent people, imprisoned them, or deprived them of economic or social goods based on their ethnic group.


It was initiated on October 13, 1943 when about 120,000 men were moved into the Republic of Checheno-Ingushetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Republic_of_Checheno-Ingushetia&action=edit&redlink=1), supposedly for mending bridges. On February 23, 1944 (on Red Army day), the entire population was summoned to local party buildings where they were told they were going to be deported as punishment for their alleged collaboration with the Germans.
Some 40% to 50% of the deportees were children.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-11) Unheated and uninsulated freight cars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_wagon) were used. The inhabitants rounded up and imprisoned in Studebaker trucks and sent to Siberia.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-13) Many times, resistance was met with slaughter, and in one such instance, in the aul of Khaibakh, about live 700 people were locked in a barn and burned to death by NKVD general Gveshiani, who was praised for this and promised a medal by Beria. Many people from remote villages were executed per Beria's verbal order that any Chechen or Ingush deemed 'untransportable should be liquidated' on the spot.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-burds2-14)
...
By the next summer, Checheno-Ingushetia was dissolved; a number of Chechen and Ingush placenames were replaced with Russian ones; mosques and graveyards were destroyed, and a massive campaign of burning numerous historical Chechen texts was near complete (leaving the world depleted of what was more or less the only source of central Caucasian literature and historical texts except for sparse texts about the Chechens, Ingush, etc., not written only by themselves, but by Georgians) [17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-17) Throughout the North Caucasus, about 700.000 (according to Dalkhat Ediev, 72.4297 [19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-18), of which the majority, 479.478, were Chechens, along with 96.327 Ingush, 104.146 Kalmyks, 39.407 Balkars and 71.869 Karachais). Many died along the trip, and the extremely harsh environment of Siberia (especially considering the amount of exposure) killed many more.
The NKVD, supplying the Russian perspective, gives the statistic of 144.704 people killed in 1944-1948 alone (death rate of 23.5% per all groups), though this is dismissed by many authors such as Tony Wood, John Dunlop, Moshe Gammer and others as a far understatement [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-19). Estimates for deaths of the Chechens alone (excluding the NKVD statistic), range from about 170.000 to 200.000 [21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-20)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-21)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-22)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29#cite_note-23), thus ranging from over a third of the total Chechen population to nearly half being killed in those 4 years alone (rates for other groups for those four years hover around 20%). Although the Council of Europe has recognized it as a "genocidal act", no country except the self-declared, unrecognized Chechen Republic of Ichkeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_Republic_of_Ichkeria) officially recognizes the act as a genocide.
Basically, if you were a member of an ethnic group which was accused by Stalin's government of "collaborating", you would be punished even if you did nothing at all to help the Nazis. This is no different in substance from the racist persecution of Japanese people during WWII by America, except the Japanese at least faced better conditions.

[tir1944]

This is great. Large nation presents demand to small nation; small nation refuses and large nation subsequently invades.
How is the size of nations relevant?



Your response to this is to blame the small nation for having the gall to reject the demand on the basis that it was generous?
No,on the basis that the Soviet Union had to protect Leningrad and the Finns wouldn't have lost anything except for some miserable tundra which had no strategic value to them (unless they were planning to attack the USSR in future) in exchange for land several times bigger.


Which leads to two further questions. Have you ever heard of something called the 'right of nations to self-determination'?
Yes.Your point? Did Stalin deny that right to the Finns? The Red Army eventually destroyed the Finnish one,however they didn't take Helsinki and "bring socialism to Finland",they were satisfied with what they asked for in the first place,three months before.

[tir1944]

Stalin's government ethnically cleansed Chechens (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lentil_%28Caucasus%29), Kalmyks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_people#World_War_II_and_exile) and other minority groups.
Why?


This was collective punishment against ethnic groups, and should not be seen as acceptable.
Indeed,i'd say this was one of Stalin's mistakes,however you have to consider the historical context...

[Rooster]

Indeed,i'd say this was one of Stalin's mistakes,however you have to consider the historical context...

In what way does that absolve it? You consider the context; this happened in a so called socialist state.

[Искра]

Indeed,i'd say this was one of Stalin's mistakes,however you have to consider the historical context...
Shoud we consider historical context of Weimar Republics then in order to justify holocaust?

Ethinc cleansing can not be justified and you can not find "historical context" for it.

[tir1944]

Shoud we consider historical context of Weimar Republics then in order to justify holocaust? T W.R. didn't commit the Holocaust...
Also yes,holocaust doesn't have much to do with "ethnic cleansings" of Chechens and so on...


Ethinc cleansing can not be justified and you can not find "historical context" for it. I don't approve of the "ethnic cleansing" of Volksdeutche or Italians in post-WW2 Yugoslavia however most people approved and it was actually necessary:for the safety of Germans themselves! Otherwise terrible revenges would have taken place.
If you can't understand that,well...


You consider the context; this happened in a so called socialist state. No,the WW2 was largely a battle of life and death between the German and Soviet people.The Germans tried to physically exterminate the Soviet People.

[Искра]

Really Tir, what are you doing here?

HOLOCAUST is ethnich cleansing --> total extermination of Jewish people. They are maybe not the same thing, but every normal human beign is condamnig them for the same thing --> organised extermination on ethnical, religious etc. group.

For all these stupidtiy and your Russian supremacism and racism thowards South Korean people you should reall get a restriction. Go get a book and read.

[tir1944]

First of all,the term "ethnic cleansing" was invented in the 90s and it referred to the Balkan wars.
The Holocaust was primarily a campaign of PHYSICAL EXTERMINATION of one people.
It was also an ethnic cleansing,but even worse than that.
What is is that you don't understand about this?
Also,if you can't understand the simple fact that Germans had to be removed for THEIR OWN SAFETY(this is the official line of the German Comparty,IIRC),then there's no point in discussing this with you anymore.




For all these stupidtiy and your Russian supremacism and racism thowards South Korean people you should reall get a restriction.Russian supremacism?
Are you on drugs or something?
Stop lying and be honest for once,jesus fucking christ.

[ComradeOm]

How is the size of nations relevant?I'm sorry, are you questioning the relevance of an Great Power (pop. 160m) making territorial demands of a small neighbour (pop. <5m) to a conversation about imperialism?


No,on the basis that the Soviet Union had to protect Leningrad and the Finns wouldn't have lost anything except for some miserable tundra which had no strategic value to them (unless they were planning to attack the USSR in future) in exchange for land several times biggerAnd as such the Finns had no right to reject? They should have placed the defence concerns of the Soviet government over their own interests? And refusing to do so should constitute a valid casus belli?


Yes.Your point? Did Stalin deny that right to the Finns?Yes. Yes the Soviet government did. What else do you call making territorial demands of a nation and then invading when they refuse? The Finns made their choice and the Soviets simply disregarded it and imposed their own settlement through force of arms. You simply cannot justify that and then claim to uphold the right of national self-determination

At least not without indulging in rank hypocrisy


The Red Army eventually destroyed the Finnish one,however they didn't take Helsinki and "bring socialism to Finland",they were satisfied with what they asked for in the first place,three months before.No, they took substantially more. Including Viipuri/Vyborg

And tir, I want to be clear on this. Are you defending the Soviet government's policy of mass deportations of ethnic groups? This includes the 'national operations' against a wide range of peoples that occurred before, during and after the Second World War

[Agent Equality]

Jesus fucking Christ can we please ban Tir1944 already and get over with it?

He makes statements then retracts them when confronted, makes accusations then retracts them as if nothing happened.
He defends a ruthless dictator who was in no way shape or form good or socialist. He fails to see reason and logic and cannot get it out of his head that stalin was a God and that only stalin and his party are right.

[Le Libérer]

At one point (unless my memory is failing or it was just a wish and dream on my part) Discussions of "omg how many people did Stalin kill" type threads were banned from the Learning Forum. I think that rule is probably still in effect because I mean really who would ever disagree with such a great idea right?
These threads always degenerate into a sectarian cesspool of passion driven death wishes and dick stroking to the great leader which is a disservice to our respected ML comrades here.

Anyway, guess what! I'm closing this thread! Lets learn about something else now, ok?

Thread closed.