Where next for the Tories?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

So Mr. Duncan Smith has finally accepted defeat. Give him credit for his stubborness if nothing else I suppose.

What will the Conservatives do now though? People I've spoken to as well as my old Politics teacher (an incredibly educated man) and one of the professors in my Uni think possibly a shift to the left. Obviously, a Tory shift to the left will leave them a little right of centre still anyway. Personally, I don't see that happening. Michael Howard is the probably going to take over and he is not much different to IDS anyway in terms of policy. I think it is a safe bet for the Tory MP's to elect Howard. The party doesn't want extremists to take over at the moment when many of the people of this country are beginning to wonder if the Tories are getting more right wing.

Obviously, whoever takes over will not matter to me or, I expect, anyone else on this forum. We're still not going to vote for them. The significance is when you think of it from New Labour's perspective. In disarray themselves, now seems a great time to call a General Election while the Tories are rotting! But does this mean that the competition for new Labour is even less?

[Hate Is Art]

I cant really see the tories doing anything worthwhile for a couple of years,
what is Britains biggest communist or left party?

[Collective]

The Communist Party of Britain (www.communist-party.org.uk) and Socialist Workers Party (www.swp.org.uk) are the two biggest revolutionary parties in Britain. There are numerous little sects, some very vocal, but they don't warrant a second glance.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 01:46 PM
The Communist Party of Britain (www.communist-party.org.uk) and Socialist Workers Party (www.swp.org.uk) are the two biggest revolutionary parties in Britain. There are numerous little sects, some very vocal, but they don't warrant a second glance.
But they are both useless, Im afraid, and stand sod all chanse of getting elected. I will still probably vote for the SWP, or not at all...

[Hate Is Art]

shame we dont have a big leftist party then, i think Britain could implement socialism or communism quite well, we already have decent healthcare and education systems, a good leftist governmeant would surely make Britain a better place.

[Felicia]

ohhh, I thought this was about the Canadian torries.

Our torries (the PC's) and the Canadian Alliance, both quite far right parties, have signed an agreement to amalgamate (sp) both parties, most likely calling themselves the "Conservative Party of Canada"

Part 1 of plan to "unite the right" underway........... :( :( :( :unsure:

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 31 2003, 11:20 PM
So Mr. Duncan Smith has finally accepted defeat. Give him credit for his stubborness if nothing else I suppose.

What will the Conservatives do now though? People I've spoken to as well as my old Politics teacher (an incredibly educated man) and one of the professors in my Uni think possibly a shift to the left. Obviously, a Tory shift to the left will leave them a little right of centre still anyway. Personally, I don't see that happening. Michael Howard is the probably going to take over and he is not much different to IDS anyway in terms of policy. I think it is a safe bet for the Tory MP's to elect Howard. The party doesn't want extremists to take over at the moment when many of the people of this country are beginning to wonder if the Tories are getting more right wing.

Obviously, whoever takes over will not matter to me or, I expect, anyone else on this forum. We're still not going to vote for them. The significance is when you think of it from New Labour's perspective. In disarray themselves, now seems a great time to call a General Election while the Tories are rotting! But does this mean that the competition for new Labour is even less?
Turns out that now Ken Clarke and Portillo are not opposing Howard that there won't even be an election for the leader, that is unless a suicidal backbencher opts to run for leadership so basically Howard will be the next tory leader and that probably wont mean a move to the left for them.

In any case I'm actually probably going to vote Tory next election, even though I dont support there ideology their policies indpendent of ideological basis have more common sense, and labour are hardly left wing these days.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

You're voting Tory?

What the hell is wrong with you?

[Pete]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 11:20 AM
ohhh, I thought this was about the Canadian torries.

Our torries (the PC's) and the Canadian Alliance, both quite far right parties, have signed an agreement to amalgamate (sp) both parties, most likely calling themselves the "Conservative Party of Canada"

Part 1 of plan to "unite the right" underway........... :( :( :( :unsure:
As did I! You British should atleast say you are talking about British politics when you bust into words like "tory" :P They are pretty universal. It took me a post or two to realize which nation this was about.

Down with the Canadian Alliance! Grrrr.

[Bastardo]

**I think it is a safe bet for the Tory MP's to elect Howard. The party doesn't want extremists to take over at the moment when many of the people of this country are beginning to wonder if the Tories are getting more right wing.**

Im sorry but you must be talking about a different Michael Howard to the one I've known for the last twenty years. The one who wants to bring back the death penalty? The one they've brought in BECAUSE he is an extreme right-wing Thatcherite? Like I said must be a different Michael Howard!! ;)

Lenin24.....you need to sort your politics out mate. :rolleyes:

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 05:23 PM

Lenin24.....you need to sort your politics out mate.
What's so wrong with voting tory next election, overall the three main parties are all pretty centre labour moving right tories moving slightly left my point is they are all more or less centre these days sure there are subtle differences but on the wider spectrum they are very close.

Labour is hardly supporting the working class much these days, by planning to raise the cost of higher education they are in fact going to alienate many of the working class. Foundation hospitals will achieve a similar effect. Alll I'm saying is I feel that the tories policies which are irrespective of their political ideology for example crime public or public transport, are more efficient than labours in the same areas and so I feel they will be more effective governing the country. Lets face it, in the current system no-one is going to represent our left wing views

[Misodoctakleidist]

It's irrelevent who the next tory leader is because the party are in decline and unless they dramatically change their ideology they'll NEVER win another election because new labour have taken their support base. During the 80's the conservatives got back into power with the support of big business because the conservatives were the closest they had to a party that represented their interests but now new labour have taken their support by better representing them. The main difference between new labour and the conservatives is that the conservative represent the aristocracy and new labour represent the bougoirsie who they took from the conservatives so labour have the support of the media and all the major companies which is why they'll win the next election with ease regardless of who's leader of the conservatives.

[/QUOTE]Lets face it, in the current system no-one is going to represent our left wing views [QUOTE]

I think if a party were to run an election campaign based on giving more money to the NHS and re-nationlising public transport ect. they would win easily but then they'd have to actually do it instead of grabbing as much money as they can.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 09:04 PM
What's so wrong with voting tory next election, overall the three main parties are all pretty centre labour moving right tories moving slightly left my point is they are all more or less centre these days sure there are subtle differences but on the wider spectrum they are very close.

Yes, but the Conservatives remain further to the right. I am not sure if I would say they had more 'common sense' as you said. I think most communists will not vote at all.

[Danton]

Not only does Michael Howard (as Bastardo pointed out) want a return to the death penalty - He has highly dubious views on both homosexuality and race, he is the breed of tory who will try and score points on issues like immigration and the unemployed.. The liberal reforms they need will not be forthcoming with Dracula at the helm..

He's the hardcore thatcherite nut who gave us the criminal justice bill and was instrumental in developing the poll tax - these, among other crimes agianst man too hideous to mention. It looks like a desperate lurch to the far right once he gets his claws in and the further decline of the blue bastards...

Lenin24 - Maybe change your name to Enoch24 or Tebbit42.. whatever

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 09:39 PM
During the 80's the conservatives got back into power with the support of big business because the conservatives were the closest they had to a party that represented their interests but now new labour have taken their support by better representing them.
But could the conservatives or Libs or whoever, not take that powerbase?
Like you pointed out, it wouldnt be the first time that has happened.

[mentalbunny]

The conservatives sound pretty reasonable, until you actually discover the content of their policies aimed at benefiting the poorer members of society, it's all capitalism, privitisation, etc, the stuff we should be fighting against.

The three main parties are all pretty damn similar as far as we're concerned, it's up to us to show that their solutions really aren't going to work and if the working class want what they deserve then they'll have to fight for it themselves and not expect a load of ponces sitting in Westminster to help them. I know that just sounds like fighting talk and that I don't contribute very much to any chance of a real kind of revolution, but I'll try when I get the chance.

[Faceless]

Lenin 24, labour are right but the tories are righter. The tories are opportunists as much as the blairites. The policy on tuition fees for instance is not too bad but it's all just an image. Perhaps you should vote Lib Dem who are further left than the other two parties. I, personally, will not be voting.

[Bastardo]

I'm shocked by some of the views on here( actually schocked is not the right word ), on the won hand there is Enigma saying that he'll vote SWP and then Lenin stating he's gonna vote Tory. What the fuck is going on with the left in this country? Hardly supprising there are disillusioned unpoliticized working class heading for the BNP really is it?

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by toastedmonkey+Nov 4 2003, 01:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (toastedmonkey @ Nov 4 2003, 01:27 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 09:39 PM
During the 80&#39;s the conservatives got back into power with the support of big business because the conservatives were the closest they had to a party that represented their interests but now new labour have taken their support by better representing them.
But could the conservatives or Libs or whoever, not take that powerbase?
Like you pointed out, it wouldnt be the first time that has happened. [/b]


[email protected] 3 2003, 09:39 PM
During the 80&#39;s the conservatives got back into power with the support of big business because the conservatives were the closest they had to a party that represented their interests but now new labour have taken their support by better representing them.
But could the conservatives or Libs or whoever, not take that powerbase?
Like you pointed out, it wouldnt be the first time that has happened.

no they couldn&#39;t becuase the conservatives only had that power base becuase the boigoirsie had no better option, the conservatives are the party of the aristocracy and in their ideal world they&#39;d bring back the feudal system i.e. lords own surf and along with a powerful monarch hold all the power, But such policies are unrealistic so they watered it down with a bit of capitalism and so had the support of the bougoirsie. In the past labour had the support of the working class but realised they could take all the significant tory voters (the bougoirsie) and the working class would have no major party to represent them and become politically powerless posing no threat to new labour. The conservtatives could never gain the support of the working class without abandonging the aristocracy which isn&#39;t going to happen because their party is made up of aristocrats (thats the whole point of their existence) and similarly they&#39;ll never regain support from the bougoirsie (becuase they are economically and ideologically opposed to the arcistocracy) unless labour suddenly move left which isn&#39;t going to happen bacause the proletariat and bougoirsie are equally good to get elected and so long as theres no major party representing the proletariat they have no competition and so no reason to gift their current support back to the conservatives.

[Ernestocheguevara]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 1 2003, 11:29 AM
I cant really see the tories doing anything worthwhile for a couple of years,
what is Britains biggest communist or left party?
Brothers, comrades of Britain&#33; The ONLY Leftist party you can trust is the Socialist party&#33;&#33;&#33; I am a member and am Chair of my local branch. Visit there web-site and lets fight for a workers party that will be the only alternative to the shit that is currently on offer&#33;&#33;&#33;www.socialistparty.org.uk (Socialist party web site)

visit now&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Ernestocheguevara]

If any so called lefties have even dreamt of voting for the tories let alone vocalising it on a strictly left board then you must be mad&#33;&#33; You need to seriously look at your own politics as well as the parties and make some serious decsicions about where you stand politically&#33;&#33;

[Funky Monk]

Im going to do it next election. To be honest i think that a vote for the Tories gives Labour more of a panic than one for the Socialist party.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Ernestocheguevara+Nov 4 2003, 07:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ernestocheguevara @ Nov 4 2003, 07:23 PM)
Digital [email protected] 1 2003, 11:29 AM
I cant really see the tories doing anything worthwhile for a couple of years,
what is Britains biggest communist or left party?
Brothers, comrades of Britain&#33; The ONLY Leftist party you can trust is the Socialist party&#33;&#33;&#33; I am a member and am Chair of my local branch. Visit there web-site and lets fight for a workers party that will be the only alternative to the shit that is currently on offer&#33;&#33;&#33;www.socialistparty.org.uk (Socialist party web site)

visit now&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b]
Like all Trotskyist parties the name is deceiving; the Socialist Party are Trotskyists. What would they do if in power? They talk about a higher minimum wage, 35 hour week. They don&#39;t seem to have any long term plans, not communism at least, they see a state with the big industries nationalised but everything else still private. They seem rather like an old Labour Party but without the patriotism.

I do not think the Liberal Democrats are particularly more left-wing than Labour, although they have some policies that suggest so, I don&#39;t think it would be much different to the Labour Party. I would vote Socialist Labour Party if they were in my area.

[Kez]

When the Socialist Party started up it claimed it would "go forward in leaps and bounds" (Pete Taffe), what actually happened was that they lost from 6000 members, to what they have now as 2000 members. This is what they call "leaps and bounds"????

forget them, just like every other sect grouping, they have no hope.

"Like all Trotskyist parties the name is deceiving; the Socialist Party are Trotskyists. What would they do if in power? They talk about a higher minimum wage, 35 hour week. They don&#39;t seem to have any long term plans, not communism at least, they see a state with the big industries nationalised but everything else still private. They seem rather like an old Labour Party but without the patriotism."

i think (at least i hope) this is part of their transitional programme, where they fight for these, but explain to workers this is not guaranteed as its given as crumbs by capitalists, and workers should take all to secure their lives. Explaining important of revolution to secure it

[Bastardo]

ERNESTOCHEGUEVAra

"Brothers, comrades of Britain&#33; The ONLY Leftist party you can trust is the Socialist party&#33;&#33;&#33; I am a member and am Chair of my local branch. Visit there web-site and lets fight for a workers party that will be the only alternative to the shit that is currently on offer&#33;&#33;&#33;www.socialistparty.org.uk (Socialist party web site)

visit now&#33;&#33;&#33;"

Do you people really buy this crap????? :blink:

Mmmmmm....I think the ridiculousness is countered by the humour of the electionering toss... :rolleyes:

edited cause I&#39;m trying to rectify bad spelling....we can&#39;t all be literate can we...

[Ernestocheguevara]

With divides like this in the left, and the attitudes that "oh they&#39;ll never change anything, even though they stand for what I believe in" I bet the greedy capitalists are rubbing there fat cat hands together and wondering when to give themselves another 100,000 a year pay rise&#33;&#33;&#33;

If we don&#39;t unite there will never be a change&#33; Solidarity is the key Guys&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Danton]

To be honest i think that a vote for the Tories gives Labour more of a panic than one for the Socialist party.

Has the world gone mad?

[Bastardo]

ERNESTCHEGUEVARA, the left should unite...agreed

But we should all fall under the loving embraces of the Socialist Party?

I think any organisation that even mentions recruitment...people should stay the hell away from (IMO).

MMmmmmm, cool cult you&#39;ve got going there&#33; Enjoy thr delusions of grandeur. This thread I thought was about the Tories...how we got into a recruitment drive for the Socialist Party god knows.... :blink:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 06:57 AM
With divides like this in the left, and the attitudes that "oh they&#39;ll never change anything, even though they stand for what I believe in" I bet the greedy capitalists are rubbing there fat cat hands together and wondering when to give themselves another 100,000 a year pay rise&#33;&#33;&#33;

If we don&#39;t unite there will never be a change&#33; Solidarity is the key Guys&#33;&#33;&#33;
There is not enough for unity to make much difference. But you are right that unity would help. Some groups in Britain have tried to create unity but have not been successful. Some people join the CPB, or SLP even though they don&#39;t agree with their ideology because they want to have one strong party. The differences are rather large, particularly with Trotskyists, Stalinists and more Labour-type socialists.

If one party was created would it be revolutionary or evolutionary? Create a one party system or not. I think a lot of socialists do not want a one party system, however without it we would have to compromise with capitalists. Maybe all the revolutionary socialists could unite, they would have to create a more moderate left-wing program so that all the scientific and historical questions about socialism are largely ignored.

I do not think our movement is powerful enough for unity to matter at present. If there was one party it would only have about 50,000+ members.

i think (at least i hope) this is part of their transitional programme, where they fight for these, but explain to workers this is not guaranteed as its given as crumbs by capitalists, and workers should take all to secure their lives. Explaining important of revolution to secure it

I do not know if it is their transitional programme. They are part of the Committe for a Workers International (CWI), which sounds very Trotskyist, but it seems the Socialist Party have not followed Trotksy&#39;s teachings precisely. It is a party formed from the ex-Militant members of Labour. It seems they have diverged from your path of influencing the Labour Party and rather creating their own party.

[Kez]

whats wrong with recruitment?

recruitment like SWP is wrong, where u join and do nothin and lose interest, however recruitment like bolsheviks is vital for group to be a real forcee. where are you going to get your organisers from? where are you going to get your money from?

[Bastardo]

I&#39;ve been involved in class struggle for 15 years..never joined anything as such and never recruited anybody to anything....and we do quite nicely thank you... ;)

Not a day goes by when I&#39;m not doing something for revolutionary struggle....funny that...no party card in my pocket..and no one telling me what to do either or I anyone else.

[Ernestocheguevara]

I don&#39;t believe I&#39;m under any obligation to do anything Bastardo other than fight for socialism, solidarity and freedom. A card in my pocket just reminds me that I&#39;m not the only one out there, when I&#39;m stood on a freezing cold street in the middle of winter flogging &#39;The Socialist&#39; (our weekly newspaper) I think a party is an outward sign of unity and comrades help by encouraging others.

A party or group of people under one banner, wether it be the socialist party the SWP the commies or the RCG, are gonna scare the shit out of Labour or the Tories a lot more than one guy who says he wants socialism, fairer working wages Etc, Etc.

And finally, cause I&#39;m goin way off the topic here, the Socialist party led the fight against the hated Poll Tax, A TORY policy, and are now leading the fight against the Bin tax in Ireland (among many other campaigns).

Thanx for listening Comrades.
ECG--

[Kez]

it wasnt the socialist party against the poll tax, it was the militant tendency, yet again, ol&#39; Taffe denies his past, and has dropped the theory.

have u been coming leaps and bounds yet??? ;)
ah well

[mentalbunny]

I&#39;m voting green next election&#33;

[Kez]

Vote Labour, the only party where the mass of the workers are, only by empowering the party where the workers are can we make an significant change

[Ernestocheguevara]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 10:54 PM
Vote Labour, the only party where the mass of the workers are, only by empowering the party where the workers are can we make an significant change
Yeah&#33; You&#39;re right lets leave the country in the hands of Tory Blair so the fat cats can get there hands on even more money, I mean he hasn&#39;t fucked the country up enough yet has he&#33;&#33;

[Ernestocheguevara]

I&#39;ll bet you all read &#39;the Sun&#39; newspaper too, right?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I can&#39;t believe people on this forum are actually considering a vote for the Tories.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for a completely privatised public sector. A vote for the Tories is a vote for oligarchy. A vote for the Tories is a vote for racist laws against immigrants.

Then again, if you want to vote for all that, I&#39;ll leave you all to deal with your own problems.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 6 2003, 02:34 PM
I can&#39;t believe people on this forum are actually considering a vote for the Tories.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for a completely privatised public sector. A vote for the Tories is a vote for oligarchy. A vote for the Tories is a vote for racist laws against immigrants.

Then again, if you want to vote for all that, I&#39;ll leave you all to deal with your own problems.
Firstly up all of the parties in Britain are oligarchical, both internally and by the fact that they are parties. Secondly I think you&#39;l find they have no racist laws against immigrants......even so you&#39;re missing the point about immigrants. People who do criticise immigrants (I&#39;m not advocating criticism of them by the way) do so because immigrants are immigrants irrespective of their colour or creed, so its unfair to say I would be a racist if I voted tory.

I knew I&#39;d get flamed for saying I might vote tory but it doesn&#39;t mean I&#39;m right wing necessarily. None of the parties in my constituency represent my views (theres no socialist candidate in my area), however I do believe democracy is a good thing. Admittedly as I&#39;m sure most of you will agree the electral system in Britain is far from democratic but one way of making the most of the representation system until it can be got rid of is by competition. What I mean to say is, the closer the tweo main parties are in terms of support the harder the ruling party will work to achieve votes in all areas. Essentially they will pay more ttention to the people. Today Labour is not left-wing anyone here who thinks so has been eluded by the crap Blair gives out about being &#39;fair for all&#39; and how hs &#39;third-way&#39; works. Now that Labour and Conservative are so close ideologically how is it that you consider a vote for labour to be a good cause and for Tory to be madness. I simply feel that the Tories will prove more effective on policies such as crime just because I would consider choosing to vote Tory doesn&#39;t make me one.

[The Children of the Revolution]

I&#39;m voting green next election&#33;


Too right&#33;&#33;&#33; They are larger than any communist party around, have a broadly socialist agenda, and champion sensible green policies, not rampant capitalism... UNLIKE the Tories and Labour&#33;&#33;&#33;

They are also decent chaps - honest and such like. A refreshing change to Blairs lies.

VOTE GREEN&#33;&#33;&#33;

Green Party UK&#33;&#33;&#33; (http://www.greenparty.org.uk/)

[Ernestocheguevara]

Lenin must be rotating in his grave with a man using his name as a moniker and spouting things like that&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Saint-Just]

Lenin must be rotating in his grave with a man using his name as a moniker and spouting things like that&#33;&#33;&#33;

Yes, you are precisely correct. Lenin said we should oppose such social democratic parties(in Russia in that era Social Democratic was akin to evolutionary socialism). They give workers an illusion and do not help them in gaining a revolutionary consciousness. He said that trade unions are dangerous organisations that become bourgeois influenced through their leaders and seek only concessions from capitalism, again denying revolutionary consciousness.

I cannot remember the exact quotes, but I think if you have read What Is To Be Done? you will know what I am referring to.

I think Lenin would say that it is more progressive to vote for the Conservative Party, although it would not raise consciousness ultimately, it is ideally more progressive since greater oppression leads to polarisation of political views on the left and right. Do not vote for the Conservatives though, our political arena is far too moderate for it to do so.

He would not be turning in his grave but turning in his Mausoleum.

[Bastardo]

Lenin. I was just wondering if you are old enough to remember the Tories in power? Because with respect mate you are talking a load of shite&#33; (with respect&#33;) :angry: :rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 04:35 PM
I&#39;m shocked by some of the views on here( actually schocked is not the right word ), on the won hand there is Enigma saying that he&#39;ll vote SWP and then Lenin stating he&#39;s gonna vote Tory. What the fuck is going on with the left in this country? Hardly supprising there are disillusioned unpoliticized working class heading for the BNP really is it?
I actually considered voting Lib Dem as well, you see I live in one of the most weakly held constituancy (labour) in the country, by voting lib dem (second party) I may reduse that staggering new labour majority down by 1 MP, but as I dont believe in tactical voting I wont. I may as well make a political statment that Milton keynes south has a socialist within its depths, even if labour gets the seat. And as people faught and died to give me my right to vote, I am damn well going to take it, it is an insult to these people if I dont.

If you have a better suggestion who I should vote for I would be pleased to hear it, if not shut the hell up.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 03:54 PM
I&#39;ve been involved in class struggle for 15 years..never joined anything as such and never recruited anybody to anything....and we do quite nicely thank you... ;)

The really sad thing though is 15 years in the class struggle, when you have achived no more than a person who has been in the class struggle for 15 minutes. So please dont lecture us about the state of the British left, as your generation is the current British left.

So take your patronising tone and higher sense of morality to someone who cares.

[mentalbunny]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 10:54 PM
Vote Labour, the only party where the mass of the workers are, only by empowering the party where the workers are can we make an significant change
Apparently people are in the process of creating a feaible left wing alternative ot the three big parties, they were talking about it at the marxist forum in my town, which is hosted by the SWP but i think the woman talking about it was concerned with more than the SWP.

Labour certainly cannot be given another chance, but neither can the Tories or the Lib Dems. And the thing is the Tories do stand a chance simply because Labour are so likely to lose, it doesn&#39;t matter if they&#39;re shit too.

As soon as I know more I&#39;ll let you know and then you have to get into the workplaces, the posties, the firemen, the public sector workers need to know about this alternative.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 11:54 PM
Vote Labour, the only party where the mass of the workers are, only by empowering the party where the workers are can we make an significant change
Ahh yes the party who&#39;s supposed left wing MP&#39;s send their childeren to private schools, though they attack others for the same crime.

Sorry if I dont hold the same opinion on the Labour party.

[Bastardo]

Enigma. You are master of simplification&#33; It is very easy to rant on about people who died to get you the vote. A lot of people have died for you for a lot of very good reasons such as free speech...doesn&#39;t mean you have to talk shite everytime you open your mouth.

Your type of marxist schooling is the reason the left is in dissarray...and yes, my generation does have something to do with that (although, I might add we&#39;ve fought a lot of battles you could only dream of). You have the answers to everything, but they all come out of a text book. Political theory is often useless when put into practice as the world isn&#39;t and doesn&#39;t revolve around you. Sorry if I&#39;m being a patronising git, my son, but you better grow up quick. If you are the future of Marxism....we are fucked&#33;&#33;&#33;

You also, as I&#39;ve noticed in the last couple of days are very good at slating people off...you lack the one major ingredient for making a revolutionary. Now that is a word called SOLIDARITY&#33; Best you run along and understand the meaning and concept behind it. Once you&#39;ve done that and are able to debate with others on the left who don&#39;t 100% agree with your shallow small minded theoretical claptrap, give us a shout. When you come to understand that your views are pointless unless they are adaptable we might be getting somewhere ( although voting Tory or SWP in my book doesn&#39;t count...but I&#39;m open for persuasion <_< )

Don&#39;t take it personally... ;)

I wait with enthusiasm your cyber rant...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 10:49 AM
Enigma. You are master of simplification&#33; It is very easy to rant on about people who died to get you the vote. A lot of people have died for you for a lot of very good reasons such as free speech...doesn&#39;t mean you have to talk shite everytime you open your mouth.

Your type of marxist schooling is the reason the left is in dissarray...and yes, my generation does have something to do with that (although, I might add we&#39;ve fought a lot of battles you could only dream of). You have the answers to everything, but they all come out of a text book. Political theory is often useless when put into practice as the world isn&#39;t and doesn&#39;t revolve around you. Sorry if I&#39;m being a patronising git, my son, but you better grow up quick. If you are the future of Marxism....we are fucked&#33;&#33;&#33;

You also, as I&#39;ve noticed in the last couple of days are very good at slating people off...you lack the one major ingredient for making a revolutionary. Now that is a word called SOLIDARITY&#33; Best you run along and understand the meaning and concept behind it. Once you&#39;ve done that and are able to debate with others on the left who don&#39;t 100% agree with your shallow small minded theoretical claptrap, give us a shout. When you come to understand that your views are pointless unless they are adaptable we might be getting somewhere ( although voting Tory or SWP in my book doesn&#39;t count...but I&#39;m open for persuasion <_< )

Don&#39;t take it personally... ;)

I wait with enthusiasm your cyber rant...
LOL, I could sit down and write a large flame back at that pathetic excuse for a post... but I cant be arsed, you offer no particular challenge.

But I will say that through all that you have not answered anything, except prove my suspicions that your just a sad old bastard with no idea.

Now I will post it again: -

If you have a better suggestion who I should vote for I would be pleased to hear it, if not shut the hell up.

The really sad thing though is 15 years in the class struggle, when you have achived no more than a person who has been in the class struggle for 15 minutes.

This time answer it instead of wasting time with another long and boring rant.

PS For your information I&#39;m not a Marxist or a revolutionary, and don&#39;t have any specific ideology other than the broad term of "socialism".


Now stop evading and get on with it.

[Bastardo]

Well you dipshit child, by voting all you prove is that divide&#39;n&#39;rule has got you firmly by the gonads as everyone with an ounce of common sense knows the old adage(that means it&#39;s been around a LONG TIME&#33;&#33;Like me&#33;)...."If voting changed anything it would be illegal&#33;"

So wander off with your dialectical bullshit and come up with something original......it&#39;s very old hat.

P.S. Would love to meet you one day but doubt you are as impressive as your mouth&#33; :o

P.P.S.You can take that personally if you like......

By the way, taking your date of birth off your profile just proves my point....LALA&#33; :blink:

[Kez]

jesus christ...

For the people who wanna vote tory for whatever reason, im not gonna bother with you are your fucked in the head.

For those who vote Libs Dems, strange, but the most right wing section of the Labour party (such as the scum blairites) left the LP went on to FORM THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS&#33;&#33;&#33; and yet its ok to vote for lib dems because......well fuck knows really....

the libdems are extremely opportunist, and i dont notice them calling for a return of troops and the ending of the looting of Iraqi oil now....

Why vote for a party that has no links with the unions??
can you not see the shift to the left in the unions, with the link they have with labour it means a shift to the left with the labour party, the size of the shift depends on us, and us being with the workers, Marx said something along the lines that it is one of the worst things to form a party that competes with a party with the workers in, ie in britains case the LP

[The Children of the Revolution]

He would not be turning in his grave but turning in his Mausoleum.


So true&#33;&#33;&#33; I hear he&#39;s getting a new suit some time in the near future, but I may be mistaken...



... by voting all you prove is that divide&#39;n&#39;rule has got you firmly by the gonads as everyone with an ounce of common sense knows the old adage ... "If voting changed anything it would be illegal&#33;"


I disagree. Violently, in fact. Yes, the main three political parties talk (slightly) different piles of the same shit, it&#39;s true. (&#39;Scuse my French) However, only by voting for our own choice of party can we ever hope to change this. How, pray tell, do you (Bastardo) intend to better the situation of our workers? Revolution? In this country? Now? Impossible. Take your mindless enthusiam elsewhere and stop insulting those who think differently to you.



If you are the future of Marxism....we are fucked&#33;&#33;&#33;


Well what did your generation achieve that was so fantastic? Nothing. Except the spread of world capitalism and the degeneration of socialism in the west. Congratulations.

This country will only change if we work with - even if eventually to destroy - bourgeois democracy. You mentioned solidarity. Well perhaps if the "left" were to show a degree of solidarity and make an effort - to change this country and reverse the errors of capitalism by voting - instead of spouting endless romanticist rubbish about &#39;Glorious Revolution&#39;, something might get done.

And you still haven&#39;t plucked up the courage to answer to "Enigma".



The really sad thing though is 15 years in the class struggle, when you have achived no more than a person who has been in the class struggle for 15 minutes.


Well?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 04:51 PM
Well you dipshit child, by voting all you prove is that divide&#39;n&#39;rule has got you firmly by the gonads as everyone with an ounce of common sense knows the old adage(that means it&#39;s been around a LONG TIME&#33;&#33;Like me&#33;)...."If voting changed anything it would be illegal&#33;"

So wander off with your dialectical bullshit and come up with something original......it&#39;s very old hat.

P.S. Would love to meet you one day but doubt you are as impressive as your mouth&#33; :o

P.P.S.You can take that personally if you like......

By the way, taking your date of birth off your profile just proves my point....LALA&#33; :blink:
Well you dipshit child,

Whoo, big words... i&#39;m sure scared of "the big man, on the net", waste someone else&#39;s time with your senile rantage.

by voting all you prove is that divide&#39;n&#39;rule has got you firmly by the gonads as everyone with an ounce of common sense knows the old adage(that means it&#39;s been around a LONG TIME&#33;&#33;Like me&#33;)...."If voting changed anything it would be illegal&#33;"


Yes, the main three political parties talk (slightly) different piles of the same shit, it&#39;s true. (&#39;Scuse my French) However, only by voting for our own choice of party can we ever hope to change this. How, pray tell, do you (Bastardo) intend to better the situation of our workers? Revolution? In this country? Now? Impossible. Take your mindless enthusiam elsewhere and stop insulting those who think differently to you.


Seconded.

BTW for a very long time voting was illegal but the threat of revolution forced its legalisation. So really your just chatting out your ass.

P.S. Would love to meet you one day but doubt you are as impressive as your mouth&#33;

Yes but judging by this thread, I doubt you are physically impressive, and the only talking you do comes out your arse.

P.P.S.You can take that personally if you like......

Its an internet forum you fuck wit, I&#39;m not going to take the imature ranting of a senile old goat remotly personally.

By the way, taking your date of birth off your profile just proves my point

Or maybe it just proves I&#39;m fed up of having ignorant old fuck&#39;s like you using it as a weapon because you cant argue to save your life.

PS and you still have yet to answer me.

You are a waste of time.

[Bastardo]

;) Good boy&#33; :rolleyes:



#P.P.S.You can take that personally if you like......

Its an internet forum you fuck wit, I&#39;m not going to take the imature ranting of a senile old goat remotly personally.#

:rolleyes:

[Ernestocheguevara]

Comrades, I think that&#39;ll do&#33;&#33; It&#39;s no wonder our country is being run by a bunch of greedy, racist, capatalist bastards when people who are, suppossedly, fighting for the same cause against the common enemy are squabbaling and resorting to common insults&#33;&#33; If a rightie were reading this he&#39;d be laughing his tits off&#33;&#33; This is the way the facists got in, in the first place&#33; By divisions in the left&#33;&#33;&#33; Solidarity is the key and without that the struggle will be in vain&#33;&#33; So give it up and lets get back to the subject of the Tories&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Bastardo]

Point taken Ernesto....

[Kez]

yeah, unity so what? uunder who Taffe? hahahha fuck that, must be joking

only through discussion can a real movement be made.

[Ernestocheguevara]

Oh yeah sitting round chattings gonna get us real far&#33;&#33;

[Bastardo]

.....but I still say people who&#39;d vote Tory or SWP are piss-ants&#33;

[The Children of the Revolution]

Had to have the last word???

Shut it you tart&#33;&#33;&#33;

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu6.jpg





Oh yeah sitting round chattings gonna get us real far&#33;&#33;


How do you think Lenin&#39;s Bolshevik Party started???

[Bastardo]

Oh, get on with your homework spotty.... <_<

[Kez]

theres a diference between discussion and chatting, you wouldnt know the difference, hence you being in the SP....

[The Children of the Revolution]

"Bastardo" (Very appropriate name comrade, sums you up pretty well).

It has become clear to me that this tirading and ranting of yours is nothing more than an elaborate mid-life crisis. I suggest you either visit a psychiatrist, or find some medication. Alternatively you could just shut the hell up, blink out of existence, and leave the universe forever. But a miracle hasn&#39;t been seen on Earth for millenia; I doubt that&#39;s about to change.

Describing those who vote "Tory or SWP" as "piss-ants" is not part of a constructive debate. Neither is calling you a worthless lunatic... So I won&#39;t bother. But please comrade, for the good of society, seek help&#33; The first step is admitting you have a problem...

On the subject of the Tories, I think they actually stand a reasonable chance come the next election. Which isn&#39;t a good thing, but at least &#39;Bomber-Blair&#39; will be gone. Their show of unity (i.e. only the one leadership contender, full party support) must win them points when compared to the power struggle and in-fighting in the Labour camp. What are your views on this, comrades? And (grudgingly) Bastardo? (But only if you found those sedatives :P )

[Bastardo]

[On the subject of the Tories, I think they actually stand a reasonable chance come the next election. Which isn&#39;t a good thing, but at least &#39;Bomber-Blair&#39; will be gone. Their show of unity (i.e. only the one leadership contender, full party support) must win them points when compared to the power struggle and in-fighting in the Labour camp. What are your views on this, comrades? And (grudgingly) Bastardo? (But only if you found those sedatives ) ]

What? We had 18 years of Tory bullshit that set worker against worker and encouraged bullshit career-bureacrat union leaders to sell us down the river. Howard was a major part of this. Ever heard of privatisation, the miners strike, the Falklands, Wapping, the Poll Tax etc, etc, etc..? The only applause that should be given to the Tory&#39;s is when they decide to climb back into that hotel in Brighton and blow themselves sky high. The last time I recall hearing this crap was when a member of the vanguardist SWP told me how the party had encouraged workers to vote Thatcher in.

You gotta be insane or exceptionaly naieve..am willing to accept it&#39;s the latter.

Sedatives don&#39;t work for me...only stimulants

[The Children of the Revolution]

Oh. Sorry. I forgot. When one posts anything which "Bastardo" is likely to read, one has to repeat it... Ok, one more time, but only because I feel sorry for you...



On the subject of the Tories, I think they actually stand a reasonable chance come the next election. Which isn&#39;t a good thing.


Let me repeat this. It isn&#39;t a good thing&#33;&#33;&#33;
Well, having done bold and itallics, perhaps I ought to try the underline...
It isn&#39;t a good thing...
Got that?

My comment about unity was aimed at the party, not the bedlam resulting from their misguided policies.

I don&#39;t want them to come to power... But I think it is probable. (Once more, It isn&#39;t a good thing&#33;&#33;&#33;) Therefore, I put on a brave face and look at the positives... Howard in; :( Blair gone; :)
Perhaps you understand now...

Plus, I don&#39;t think you should call people "naieve" when you can&#39;t spell the word. It is spelt Naive. That&#39;s N-A-I-V-E. Some other words for you to consider:
Embarrassed: "made to feel uncomfortable because of shame or wounded pride"
Ignorance: "the lack of knowledge or education"
Fool: "a professional clown..."

Good day to you sir.

[Bastardo]

[Their show of unity (i.e. only the one leadership contender, full party support) must win them points when compared to the power struggle and in-fighting in the Labour camp.]

I too shall repeat what you said. And I also fucking repeat ..

"What? We had 18 years of Tory bullshit that set worker against worker and encouraged bullshit career-bureacrat union leaders to sell us down the river. Howard was a major part of this. Ever heard of privatisation, the miners strike, the Falklands, Wapping, the Poll Tax etc, etc, etc..? The only applause that should be given to the Tory&#39;s is when they decide to climb back into that hotel in Brighton and blow themselves sky high. The last time I recall hearing this crap was when a member of the vanguardist SWP told me how the party had encouraged workers to vote Thatcher in."

Okay?

Having a go at someone for not being able to spell properly is pathetic...

And to go on about ignorance..... :rolleyes:

Nice one comrade ;)

edited to change spellings...Im dyslexic...ooppss don&#39;t think that was spellt right...

[The Children of the Revolution]

Having a go at someone for not being able to spell properly is pathetic...


Sorry, didn&#39;t know you were dyslexic... ;) I just thought it was rather amusing that you managed to spell naive incorrectly, considering it&#39;s meaning and synonyms...

I still don&#39;t really know what the rant was for... I made quite clear my opposition to the Tories. I just thought I&#39;d point out, in accordance with the thread, (which, in case you had forgotten, is "Where next for the Tories?") that I think they stand a reasonable chance come the next election. I have heard of the issues concerned, yes, and I despise Thatcher as much as the next man. Or indeed, senile old goat. :P

The thread was specifically about the Tories future, not about their somewhat notorious past.

In my opinion, if they manage to campaign on the correct issues and keep their promise to eliminate tuition fees, they stand a chance come election day. <Tired Sigh> This. Is. Not. A. Good. Thing. Personally, I will be voting (yes, I will be voting) for the Green Party. It may not be Communism, Anarchism, or Senile Goatism... But it is a step in the right direction. In my opinion.

Okay?

[Kez]

how bout both of you shut the fuck up, your both saying the same fucking thing, fucks sake...

bastardo, a little tip, i agree with you that the SWP are scum, but i wudnt call their followers piss ants, because thats ultra-left tactics, instead id patiently explain the faults of the SWP and exlpain my viewpoint on the questions discussed. with this we build the movement.

[The Children of the Revolution]

... your both saying the same fucking thing ...


Well that&#39;s what I thought... I think Bastardo saw things differently.
Hmmm, a truce seems to be in order...
Peace and Love, man??? :) :) :)

And just to clarify the point, in case it wasn&#39;t clear, the Tories are scum...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 11:55 PM
theres a diference between discussion and chatting, you wouldnt know the difference, hence you being in the SP....
Coming from one of the few remaining Labour leftists that is very very (forever and infinitum) rich. How do you think that the labour party got into its current shocking state?

i agree with you that the SWP are scum,

LOL coming from a Labour supporter thats rich as well.

PS, there is NO differance between the Tory party and the labour party, and judging by whats happining at the moment, I doubt there ever will be.

[Kez]

Enigma, your posts are frustrating in that its sad to see able left youth not able to differenciate between arguing on what is correct, and on emotions.

Think about labour relations with labour and with the tories.
Labour has the TU linked with it and the tories have CBI hmmmm.

Why bring the argument so low? there are clearly many many differences between the parties in their make up, and the policies they make...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 06:39 PM
Enigma, your posts are frustrating in that its sad to see able left youth not able to differenciate between arguing on what is correct, and on emotions.

Think about labour relations with labour and with the tories.
Labour has the TU linked with it and the tories have CBI hmmmm.

Why bring the argument so low? there are clearly many many differences between the parties in their make up, and the policies they make...
And what would these different policies be, apart from the Torys not wanting to be in Europe?

Labour has the TU linked with it and the tories have CBI hmmmm.

Thats quite interesting considering the number of strikes which have been occuring during this labour Government. It seems to me that TB is pissing on most of the Unions, except the ones which are brown nosing him.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2003, 05:39 PM
Enigma, your posts are frustrating in that its sad to see able left youth not able to differenciate between arguing on what is correct, and on emotions.

Think about labour relations with labour and with the tories.
Labour has the TU linked with it and the tories have CBI hmmmm.

Why bring the argument so low? there are clearly many many differences between the parties in their make up, and the policies they make...
Yes there are very much still differences between the two parties but the shame is that they are becoming far too similar all the time. Labour has to an extent betrayed the trade unions, while it used to essentially be a voice for the unions in parliament funded nearly 100% by unions its now less than 40%.
So Enigma is right in saying their very similar today, new labour is getting more conservative and yes it does have strong links with the CBI.

[Funky Monk]

Middle England based parties?

[Ernestocheguevara]

Okay, firstly why keep knocking me cause I&#39;m an SP member? Ultimately we are all fighting for the same cause just not in the same way&#33;&#33; Everyone on this board has a view on what Socialism is or should be and how it could work. To me it seems like bald men fighting over a comb when people begin squabbaling about what or who they support&#33;&#33; We all have the same goal in mind, more or less, and if we don&#39;t unite we have no chance&#33;&#33; Remeber the film a bugs life???? The ants wouldn&#39;t have kicked the grasshoppers asses without unity&#33;&#33;&#33; I accept differen&#39;t views but personal insults is just childish and meaningless and people only do it when they have nothing to say, an empty can rattles the most and all that&#33;&#33; Oh and it&#39;s spelt Taafee FYI&#33;&#33;
That is all, rants welcomed with loving arms, c&#39;mon comrades lets divide the left a little more shall we???? Lets make it easy for the fascists&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Ernestocheguevara]

On the real subject, however, I thought Oliver Letwin or even worse David F***ing Davis might have been candidates for Tory leadership?? The divides in the Tory party are too deep at the moment to make them strong contendors although abolishing top up fees is a policy to win votes, I&#39;m just waiting for them to sink as low as playing the old race card which I&#39;m almost sure they will.
This has got to be the best time for the left to move with such dissary&#33;&#33; No one wants to vote Tory, Labour or Lib dem at the mo so building a workers party, run by the workers not Taafee&#33;&#33;, has got to be a good move.

[Kez]

"Thats quite interesting considering the number of strikes which have been occuring during this labour Government. It seems to me that TB is pissing on most of the Unions, except the ones which are brown nosing him."

As has been explained by real marxist analysis the unions would shift to the left. and this has happened on so many occasions now
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/amicus_confe...erence0603.html (http://www.marxist.com/Europe/amicus_conference0603.html)
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/woodley_election.html
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/unison2_0603.html
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/cwu_0603.html

So as you can see, the brown nosers are the ones who have betrayed the workers by supporting the slime that is Blair. In one way we could say it is US that have betrayed the workers in supporting the brown nosers in the first place&#33;&#33;&#33; This is why we should be doing work at every level of the labour movement, from the shop floor, to the union leadership to the Labour Party, these are where the workers are, and more importantly where they turn to when they want change.

What parties such as the SP do is to split the workers up, and let the fascists in, you are the only ones who are splitting the workers and allowing a space for the fascists to get in, no-one is doing this but yourself. And this is what we argued against in the 1990&#39;s split, however the Taafite clique unfortunately through its promises of action over theory won over members, 6000 of them. Now they have 2000, and are running out of money.

Lenin, had you been even reading the news you would see how many CBI people are giving MILLIONS each to the conservative party, and labour is getting significantly less, and will get much less as it goes further left, as is the case at the moment. We are alreaady seeing superficial changes with the end of the term new labour at conference, and everyone can see the divide in the party.

This is why work outside the party is such a waste of time, because as soon as things get worse, people are gonna flock to the LP as they have always done, as the Labour party are still the only party with mot favourable situation for workers.

The NUJ (national union of journalists) leader is an out and out marxist, and a member of our tendency
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/jdear_interview0903.html
ive met him at the stop the war demo at our stall, and if he realises as head of the union, which as enigma correct to some extent has said is being pissedd on by Blair, then surely theres a substantial reason why he is still there fighting?

The worst part of this is how so much money reasons, brains are being wasted on an organisation decision in building sect groups outside the party, this will become apparent when workers move AGAIN towards the LP.

[Ernestocheguevara]

Enlighten me&#33;&#33; As a fairly new SP member I would like to know how &#39;we&#39; split the workers up and allow the fascists to get in? Would that be by supporting them when they fight for a living wage or when they are racial abused at work? Or would it be when we get together with shop stewards and union leaders to urge them to stop giving money to the Labour party who ARE dividing them?? And encourage them to strike and fight for what they deserve and rightly earn??

[Kez]

"Or would it be when we get together with shop stewards and union leaders to urge them to stop giving money to the Labour party who ARE dividing them"

u dont work with shop stewards, it was people like u that said we should build new unnion to the Electricity one as they had a very rightwing leadership, however we said that we should stay in and fight, the result? u wasted ur time and money, and we got the union to be one of the most left wing there are....

2ndly ur splitting workers into those who pay for Labour and those who dont, thats first way to split
Then you compete against Labour, taking votes against them and coming behind the fascists in any case with the votes youve robbed from labour. Had labour had these votes the fascists wouldnt get so many votes...

We have a lot of SP members who return to the tendecny after seeing how unproductive they are, i can give u the msn addres of one comrade if u wish...

sorry if this comes acorss as an agressive post, its not ment to be, sorry mate, im trying to explain, no anger is directedd at you :)

[Ernestocheguevara]

Are you the communist party by any chance???? Do you read the morning Star???? It is quite obvious. No anger taken mate&#33;&#33; I took a pounding on the Rage against the Machine Board at artists direct.com and believe me I take nothing personally any more&#33;&#33;

[katie mccready]

i am sorry to say this but what would hapen if you voted the lib-dems in?

[Ernestocheguevara]

TavareeshKamo a long serving comrade of mine looked at your post and came up with this:


This post gives the impression that it is from someone in Ted Grant&#39;s organisation, Socialist Appeal. They split from us after losing the debate over the new turn in the early 1990s, when the vast majority of us voted for an initiative to set up an open organisation outside the Labour party. If it is (and not someone on a wind up) then I can only say they must be new and with a very low political understanding. Despite my political differences with Socialist Appeal, surely they wouldnt be as crude as this&#33;

What parties such as the SP do is to split the workers up, and let the fascists in, you are the only ones who are splitting the workers and allowing a space for the fascists to get in, no-one is doing this but yourself.

So the BNP are gaining seats because the Socialist Party has split the workers? Nothing to do with the dissillutionment of workers with Labour? Nothing to do with the lack of a socialist alternative then? If we all join Blair&#39;s new Labour (and hide our politics?) then the BNP vote will go down?

And this is what we argued against in the 1990&#39;s split, however the Taafite clique unfortunately through its promises of action over theory won over members, 6000 of them. Now they have 2000, and are running out of money.

I dont remember this one ever being used at the time, and I was there&#33; Neither is it in a single one of the multitude of documents writted during that debate.

Ask him how many members they have&#33; 50, 100? Even more important, what do they do exactly?

Lenin, had you been even reading the news you would see how many CBI people are giving MILLIONS each to the conservative party, and labour is getting significantly less,

But still getting MILLIONS see http://www.red-star-research.org.uk/index.html

and will get much less as it goes further left, as is the case at the moment.

WHAT? Top up fees, foundation hospitals, occupation, ID cards, privatisation..... all evidence of a swing to the left? Or maybe the LP conference swung left when it gave Mr Blair that standing ovation?

We are alreaady seeing superficial changes with the end of the term new labour at conference, and everyone can see the divide in the party.

Between right wing Blair and right wing Brown.

This is why work outside the party is such a waste of time, because as soon as things get worse, people are gonna flock to the LP as they have always done, as the Labour party are still the only party with mot favourable situation for workers.

Where is the evidence that people will flock to Labout now? Especially when they run the government carrying out such attacks, they run the councils doing the same. In the past workers, through their constituency membership/ trades union affiliation could at least put pressure on the leadership. The party has now qualititively changed. The memories of young people are of Labour being no different to the Tories, unlike previous generations who could remember the positive reforms that were acheived in the past (NHS, welfare state etc)

The NUJ (national union of journalists) leader is an out and out marxist, and a member of our tendency
http://www.marxist.com/Europe/jdear_interview0903.html
ive met him at the stop the war demo at our stall, and if he realises as head of the union, which as enigma correct to some extent has said is being pissedd on by Blair, then surely theres a substantial reason why he is still there fighting?

I dont understand this bit - what is he getting at? We have 14 of our members on TU national executives and the president of the PCS

The worst part of this is how so much money reasons, brains are being wasted on an organisation decision in building sect groups outside the party,

If we had done what Grant wanted and stayed in the LP we would be the size of Socialist Appeal now, sitting still with arms folded, waiting for the workers to come and visit us&#33;
As it is we have built a significant base of support amongst working class people, 4 councillors elected as SP, important positions in the Trades Unions, a growing youth and student organisation - and continued to develop Marxist theory that doesnt just repeat the mantras of a previous period.

this will become apparent when workers move AGAIN towards the LP.

Tell us when it happens and we shall come and join you. In the meantime I won&#39;t hold my breath.

[Kez]

Yes, i am a member of the Socialist Appeal, not of the Communnist Party (thank god :)).

I would like to know the "low level of political understanding" i think this is rather ironic coming from a SP member....

The dissillusionment of the workers which can only be expectedd with a scum bag of bliar as leader, is only further enhanced by SP and other sect activists telling them to pull out. Why are workers not going to the SP and the SP "growing in Leaps and Bounds" and Taafe said they would in the very early 90&#39;s?

"Ask him how many members they have&#33; 50, 100? Even more important, what do they do exactly?"
- The members are i believe 400, i dunno if i should state the number, however, i dont think there is much point in hiding a number, as it makes no difference whatsoever.
-More importantly we have done tremendous amounts of work, i wrote in my last post what we did with the eleectricians union while parties such as your own turned your backs on the workers when they were fighting and suffering under the right wing leadership...the result? you wasted money and time building a new union, while we fought inside the union, kicked out the leadership and now have a successful left wing union, you now are counting the cost of the whole new union building project you had. The same applies for Labour Party work.

"But still getting MILLIONS see http://www.red-star-research.org.uk/index.html"
-as ive stated the Labour Party was NEVER a workers party, it was always led by the bourgeois, and the leadership is bound to get support from the bourgeoise, otherwise it would make our task easier in getting members to become marxists within the party.
-I would like you to keep an eye on how the funding for parties goes....dont forget how bad the tories were, the bourgoise wouldnt fuund them unless they had a chance of winning, and scum bag blair had more chance than hague remember? hence blair got their dirty money...

"WHAT? Top up fees, foundation hospitals, occupation, ID cards, privatisation..... all evidence of a swing to the left? Or maybe the LP conference swung left when it gave Mr Blair that standing ovation?"
- I think the fact that Blair was reading the Harold Wilson memoirs when they were defeated by the unions. Blair FEARS the unions, and if we make these unions rank and file socialists then we boot the fuk out of Blair and his clique.

"Where is the evidence that people will flock to Labout now? Especially when they run the government carrying out such attacks, they run the councils doing the same. In the past workers, through their constituency membership/ trades union affiliation could at least put pressure on the leadership. The party has now qualititively changed. The memories of young people are of Labour being no different to the Tories, unlike previous generations who could remember the positive reforms that were acheived in the past (NHS, welfare state etc)"
-The evidence is the evidence of the last 100 years, nothing has changed qualitively.
-The grassroots still have significant power, and the unions dedspite paying 40% of labour funding have 50% of the vote, thats why if we have socialist unions, 50% of policy of labour will be voted by socialists....

"I dont understand this bit - what is he getting at? We have 14 of our members on TU national executives and the president of the PCS"
- What i was trying to show you was that a marxist union leader was fighting in Labour, because he realises that this is the MOST EFFECTIVE WAY. we dont do this because lenin said so 100 years ago, we do this because its the most effective and efficient organisational route.

Your 14 members however are trying to prize the workers away from the Labour party, and make it a weaker force against both the Tories and the fascists.

"If we had done what Grant wanted and stayed in the LP we would be the size of Socialist Appeal now, sitting still with arms folded, waiting for the workers to come and visit us&#33;
As it is we have built a significant base of support amongst working class people, 4 councillors elected as SP, important positions in the Trades Unions, a growing youth and student organisation - and continued to develop Marxist theory that doesnt just repeat the mantras of a previous period."
-first off i would like to have a discussion proper with any SP member and show the real work we do, then you may say were waiting arms crossed...
-Secondly 4 councillors....although this is good...how effective is it? and how many candidates did you put up?
-Positions in the TU, as we have a Trade Union leader as a MEMBER of our organisation, i dont think you can say were not in the trade unnions. In fact at the moment were pushing for election in the AMICUS union, although i think you also would be doing this, im not sure.....maybe your building a new union entirely because its hard work fighting the rightwing beurocrats...
-The SP youth are a bit over rated, in Manchester at the demo i only saw one SP youth out there, in a big city like manchester. Look. before i joined Socialist Appeal i had discussions with SP members in manchester and i had them with Socialist Appeal members, having looked at both arguments i chose the latter, i do know what SP stand for.
-i dont think the studednt membership is much to go by, as we all know the SWP is big, but they burn em out within a few years so...i think its important for the organisations in what they DO with the youth, not just recruit them...as youth we are the future of the struggle.
-I would like to hear some mantras we state.

"Tell us when it happens and we shall come and join you. In the meantime I won&#39;t hold my breath. "
If you give me his or your email/msn address i can post you everything that goes on in the LP. im sure we&#39;d actualyl come up with some good discussions and fruitful ones too. I can also give you addresses of few comrades who have left SP for the Socialist Appeal in recent years. One good comrade of mine even gave a lift to Taafe &#33; :D how he regrets it...:D

[Kez]

Originally posted by katie [email protected] 13 2003, 09:46 AM
i am sorry to say this but what would hapen if you voted the lib-dems in?
Hello Katie,

what would happen?

well, first we would get more opportunist policies from the Lib Dems, notice how they arent against war anymore?
Secondly the unions would have no say in policy unlike they do in the Labour Party

Its easy to think the Lib Dems are left wing, however they are not, and lets not forget how in the 80&#39;s the most right wing section of the Lavbour Party left to form the Liberal Democrats...

[Ernestocheguevara]

Originally posted by TavareeshKamo+Nov 13 2003, 11:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TavareeshKamo @ Nov 13 2003, 11:05 AM)
katie [email protected] 13 2003, 09:46 AM
i am sorry to say this but what would hapen if you voted the lib-dems in?
Hello Katie,

what would happen?

well, first we would get more opportunist policies from the Lib Dems, notice how they arent against war anymore?
Secondly the unions would have no say in policy unlike they do in the Labour Party

Its easy to think the Lib Dems are left wing, however they are not, and lets not forget how in the 80&#39;s the most right wing section of the Lavbour Party left to form the Liberal Democrats... [/b]
Ahhh TK, something we DO agree on&#33;&#33;


I&#39;ll move our disscussion on to a new thread because I think it warrants one&#33; I will have to consult my comrade on wether to give you his email address but I don&#39;t see a problem initially.

I&#39;ll call the new thread &#39;why are there divides in the left?&#39; quite appropriate I think&#33;&#33; :D