NWO crap

[ВАЛТЕР]

It's disheartening to see how many people believe that there is some kind of a super-secret conspiracy going on to enslave all of humanity. I find it ridiculous beyond belief, but the people who believe it will ignore any sensible argument against it. I am hearing shit about how their goal is to destroy religion, and kill off half of the world and crap.

How can they not see that the problem isn't some kind of a sinister plot by the bankers, corporations, and the media, but actually the problem is simply the bourgeoisie being allowed to rampantly develop as they please. The problem is capitalism, these corporations aren't hellbent on enslaving anybody, they just want profit by any means necessary.

I mean they are on the right track, blaming the bankers and corporations, but they can't go about thinking that this is some 1000 year old plot made by the masons or jews to enslave all of humanity and hoard all of the wealth.

Have anyone of you encountered people who believe this stuff and how can you effectively shoot down their claims?

[citizen of industry]

It's not rational so you can't shoot it down. I think a lot of it comes from a rejection of Marxist ideas. You can try to explain the economics that lead to these crisis, but people like that I've talked to immediately reject that without either considering it or researching it. Without a sensible explanation, they resort to conspiracy theories or blame the gubment.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I tell them that Marx pretty much predicted that this would happen, and that there is no reason to blame some secret group for this.

Then they come back with bullshit that Marx was part of the conspiracy as well...somehow.
They can't defend their opinions logically so I guess I shouldn't even bother arguing with them as a logical person. They are more like children, I should just smile and nod and let them go play with their toys in the other room.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I guess it can be seen as a part of alienation of people under capitalism. They see that people are in power, but they can't seem to figure out exactly why, and thus make an easy conclusion. Sorta like religion?

[ВАЛТЕР]

I guess it can be seen as a part of alienation of people under capitalism. They see that people are in power, but they can't seem to figure out exactly why, and thus make an easy conclusion. Sorta like religion?

I can see this being the case as well. People jump on the wagon that this is some kind of a secret plan since it makes them feel smart as if they've somehow infiltrated the lair of the beast. While the capitalists laugh all the way to the bank.

[thefinalmarch]

To quote a user who recently left the forums:

The bourgeoisie are not a sinister secret group, but rather people who are unified by certain economic classifications. For example, we could conclude that dogs are unified by common characteristics of being dogs, without all dogs necessarily needing to be a part of some kind of sinister conspiracy.

In general, the beliefs here are that conspiracy theories, namely antisemitism and NWO-Illuminati stuff are caused by idealist notions. My own belief about these theories is that people feel uncertain and are afraid, and in order to make the world understandable and be able to direct their frustrations, they reduce the causes of all their problems down to a secretive evil cabal controlling all things evil. People seems to prefer to have a god, even if that god is malevolent.

[Manic Impressive]

Have anyone of you encountered people who believe this stuff and how can you effectively shoot down their claims?
not exactly the same but I met a guy recently who started off on 9/11 and as it got later he started saying that the US was responsible for the tsunami that hit Japan. At that point I lost my temper slightly and asked him why the fuck it would matter if they had done any of the shit he was suggesting as the wars in the middle east have killed far more people than that tsunami and 9/11 combined what difference would a few hundred thousand more make? We already know that the government of the US and UK and all the rest are mass murdering bastards.

This is after exhausting rational arguments and I was very very drunk

[Aleenik]

I don't believe in the NWO stuff, but some of the symbolism in things like music videos is weird. Things like mickey mouse ears, bees, etc. I don't understand the reasoning for those symbols or if they really have any real meaning at all. There are recurring themes though.

[Ocean Seal]

Ok look there is an easy way to deal with these people. Take them through the steps logically.

Start:
Why did power elites form?
Capitalism, the state, and so on
Who are the power elites?
The rich, politicians
Is that a reasonably large sized group of people?
Sounds like it
Do you believe that they are all part of some secret Illuminati bullshit?
Yes, blah blah blah. Do you understand now?
Wouldn't the rich still control everything if they weren't part of the Illuminati bullshit? Just answer the question...
Yes, probably.
So what are you more likely to believe, that the President listens to a few men wearing black robes, or that he listens to some guys with briefcases full of money (an allegory, I don't actually mean that it happens that obviously)?

The bourgeoisie are the secret society that you're looking for which controls everything. Except they make it no secret that they control everything.

[Hexen]

It's simple, most people like to point fingers and blame rather than analyze and look for facts like a actual scientist.

[Lunatic Concept]

Plus if theres an unstoppable power controlling everything, why should they themselves bother doing anything? Frees them from thinking they might actually be able to change the system instead or the worlds problems.

[Nox]

The best part is that whenever you ask them for sources to back up their incredible claims, they normally link 911truthnwozogzionism.com or some other stupid conspiracy website :laugh:

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

"I might be asked whether this revolution before your eyes is a communist revolution. After the usual explanations as to what communism is (I leave aside the hackneyed accusations by imperialism and the colonial powers, who confuse everything), I would answer that if this revolution is Marxist--and listen well that I say "Marxist"--it is because it discovered, by its own methods, the road pointed out by Marx." - Che

I do not really see the big deal if people want to use the term "NEW WORLD ORDER". I believe George H.W. Bush actually used that term. Henry Kissinger said way back in the 60s or 70s, "We must construct an international order before a crisis imposes it as a necessity." This has been their foreign policy strategy for containing the 'developing' world and 'securing' the developed world for decades.

Let people come to "Marxist" conclusions on their own terms. Whether they use the word "bourgeoisie" or not matters little. Rather than condemning these people as ignorant "crap", why not speak to them on their level, and help direct them towards communist conclusions? Maybe you could even learn something useful from them. Would it be fair to label our conclusions all "Communist crap" just because some "Marxists" are more interested in ranting about their favorite long-dead mustachioed leader wrapped in a red flag than actually organizing the contemporary working class at the ground level?

Corporations do want to enslave people. The bourgeoisie is part of a "sinister plot." Capitalism is a sinister plot to keep us in wage slavery. They do use deception. The so-called "democratic" system deceives people into believing that the masses of regular people have control over politics. Yes that deception is wearing thin but you would be surprised how many USAmericans still believe they live in "the freest country on Earth." If they "make it no secret that they control everything", just ask yourself, How many billions of dollars to go to the intelligence agencies, how many of their documents remain classified, Why do US Special Operations forces operate in over a hundred countries in secrecy, etc?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's very regrettable, but as was said above somewhere, the ideas are not rational and so it's very difficult to argue with people who won't accept logic.

I also believe that the anti-inclusive, anti-democratic nature of Capitalism (admittedly, not just Capitalism) brings about these sorts of conspiracies; if people are not allowed to know what is going on in the highest echelons of power, then they will inevitably (sometimes, some of them) follow the path of an esoteric kind of voyeurist gossip.

[RedGrunt]

It's disheartening to see how many people believe that there is some kind of a super-secret conspiracy going on to enslave all of humanity.

I really don't see how that's too far from Marxism(-class analysis), the Bourgeoisie are super-secret because they don't want the masses to be able to see where the true power is. The media, banks, and corporations are simply sinister tools of them(superstructure?). The whole jewish and mason finger-point thing is what ticks me off really, sure there are jews in those arms but there are also christians, catholics, and so forth. I'm sure you could show that, pending on the country, different religious branches and races are well represented in the national bourgeoisie but ultimately it's irrelevant because you'll also find those same affiliations throughout all of society; the real issue is class-ism and capitalism.

As for the "US caused the Japan Tsunami" I think that comes from this whole "HAARP" shit which has been plaguing peoples' minds as of recent it seems. I don't doubt that the U.S. has experimented or tried to make weather weapons or whatnot but theres just no foundation for its success, or, furthermore, for the supposed uses. It's just "OH look environmental disaster lets point the finger there."(Also I dont think theres much tension between U.S. and Japan.. >.>)

The whole Marx was apart of the plan is some odd thing, you'll often find that they'll link him to the whole Jewish thing, or even just satanism. Communism was obviously an early attempt at the NWO and mass enslavement. :laugh:

[Ryan the Commie Girl]

There are tons of these guys on Facebook, just check out any Ron Paul group there. They attempt to hide their Antisemitic worldview under the rug of Libertarianism.

They aren't worth the time nor bullets.

[Crux]

It's disheartening to see how many people believe that there is some kind of a super-secret conspiracy going on to enslave all of humanity. I find it ridiculous beyond belief, but the people who believe it will ignore any sensible argument against it. I am hearing shit about how their goal is to destroy religion, and kill off half of the world and crap.

How can they not see that the problem isn't some kind of a sinister plot by the bankers, corporations, and the media, but actually the problem is simply the bourgeoisie being allowed to rampantly develop as they please. The problem is capitalism, these corporations aren't hellbent on enslaving anybody, they just want profit by any means necessary.

I mean they are on the right track, blaming the bankers and corporations, but they can't go about thinking that this is some 1000 year old plot made by the masons or jews to enslave all of humanity and hoard all of the wealth.

Have anyone of you encountered people who believe this stuff and how can you effectively shoot down their claims?
If I am going to be crass, your chances of convincing them with the basic marxist arguments rely primarily on two, usually related, factors 1) how hardcore they are into the "conspiracy theory scene" and 2) what class they are. A comrade told me about encountering quite a lot of these kind of "Illuminati" and NWO type of ideas when doing masswork in the area where he lives, ie the poor, working class mostly immigrant suburbs. These kids can certainly, and have, been convinced otherwise. But if you're talking to some petit-bourgeouisie hardcore conspiracy theorist that believes the brittish royal family are lizards from outer space and control the world, don't waste your time.

[ВАЛТЕР]

But if you're talking to some petit-bourgeouisie hardcore conspiracy theorist that believes the brittish royal family are lizards from outer space and control the world, don't waste your time.

Oh god hahaha I almost forgot about those weirdos who think that eveyone in power is a shapeshifting lizard bahahah :laugh::laugh:

How, according to their psychotic fantasies do these "reptiles" survive in the cold places? I'm sure I've seen Putin who is supposedly also a "reptilian" going skiing before, and he seemed quite good at it...

[thriller]

I think Glenn Beck said it on his TV show last year. Once he says it, I'm don't debating it. Have I met them, yes. Some people were a little open-minded to my critique. Most refused to listen to me, so I don't listen to them.

[Leftsolidarity]

I try to talk with them since honestly I was like them for a bit too. I talk to them about how it is the overall capitalist system and not some evil individuals. I don't try to tear apart their claims but rather try to reinforce the parts where they target the bourgeoisie then explain why that part is correct.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Oh god hahaha I almost forgot about those weirdos who think that eveyone in power is a shapeshifting lizard bahahah :laugh::laugh:

How, according to their psychotic fantasies do these "reptiles" survive in the cold places? I'm sure I've seen Putin who is supposedly also a "reptilian" going skiing before, and he seemed quite good at it...

It's the sort of thing that occurs when you take too much LSD and then sit down and watch a re-run of V and They Live and then chose to take your subsequent hallucinations as serious messages from some gods.

[La Comédie Noire]

I'd agree with what people are saying here, Marx discovered an underlying cause of human societies and worked out a coherent and corresponding conception of the business cycle. If you throw him out, you aren't left with a lot to work with when critiquing the current social order. Therefore you must rely on idealist notions or past prejudices to explain crisis and on going globalization.

[Seresan]

I just say "Don't worry you are on our 'spare list'... for now." :rolleyes:

[ВАЛТЕР]

Lol, actually funny this thread is brought up again. We just had a visit from one of those NWO nutjobs. Hilarity Ensued.

I would like to thank Comrade RedBrother for his argument he posted here because I used it in the thread.

And without further adieu, our friendly neighborhood conspiracy nut/aspiring bourgeoisie

:laugh:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/hello-t162220/index.html?t=162220

[Rodrigo]

Conspiracies like the "Bilderberg Group" are just illusions with the intent of detracting opposition to the capitalist system.