Occupy Wall St. [Archive]

Robert

5th October 2011, 00:06

if becoming content with my material situation means I can't have those... :confused:
Item: McDonald’s Frappé (Mocha & Caramel)
Price: $2.79
Size: Small (12 ounces)
Purchased at: McDonald’s
Rating: 7 out of 10
Pros: Delicious. Reasonably priced. If you enjoy a Frappuccino, you’ll probably enjoy this. Caramel Frappé tastes like coffee ice cream. Using fast food menu items as replacement terms for the violent acts. Plucking eyebrows. Banana Republic Outlets.

Wow, $2.79 for a small? Hmm, I approve of McDonald's, but I wouldn't bring one of those to the next commie conference you attend.

But if you do go, and they ALL bring one, that's the kind of information I need to have.

Revolution starts with U

5th October 2011, 00:21

If anyone tries to question my commitment to the cause because I am drinking a mocha frappe, they will quickly find their white shirt has become a cold, brown, wet one :lol:

And 2.79 is the average price of a medium where I am at. Smalls are usually 2.29

kapitalyst

5th October 2011, 00:39

I drink mocha frappes from McDs and Mocha Joes from BK :lol:

I know they're expensive and draining my resources. But holy fuck, if becoming content with my material situation means I can't have those... :confused:

If you can, get a cheap coffee grinder. I got one for $10 from Walmart. Then you can buy fresh whole bean coffee (even Starbucks brand) and make it at home. :thumbup1:

Revolution starts with U

5th October 2011, 01:05

If you can, get a cheap coffee grinder. I got one for $10 from Walmart. Then you can buy fresh whole bean coffee (even Starbucks brand) and make it at home. :thumbup1:

I just can't seem to find the recipe that matches up with their delicious flavor. Believe me, when I do find that recipe, I'll never buy another one.
I know that dark chocolate syrup is the way to go. I've figured that out. But, idk... McFrappe's come as a pre-made powder (I think). And to make the mocha joes, I think you mix a whole pot of coffee with a whole half gallon of milk... I just don't have the money to waste that much coffee and milk finding the right mixture :lol:

M42-AEK

5th October 2011, 01:14

You don't seriously think that's going to happen do you?

not with that attitude:rolleyes:

Robert

5th October 2011, 01:21

I just can't seem to find the recipe that matches up with their delicious flavor.

Carefully developed in the corporate research kitchens of McDonalds by capitalists with discriminating palates.:thumbup1:

Give it up man, capitalism makes life better.

Robert

5th October 2011, 01:29

Hey Rev, guess what. I've never had a cup of coffee. For real.

I refuse to exploit the proletariat coffee pickers and starbucks clerks.

Not really, I just can't stand the taste.

You know that "Rev" is short for reverend.

Well, it is ... I'm just sayin'.

Revolution starts with U

5th October 2011, 04:15

I typed this first response out beforehand and sent it... idk what happened lol

Carefully developed in the corporate research kitchens of McDonalds by capitalists with discriminating palates.:thumbup1:

Give it up man, capitalism makes life better.
Carefully developed by food researchers with discriminating palates under the pay of capitalists. (That's an important distinction)

Give it up man, science makes life better.

Hey Rev, guess what. I've never had a cup of coffee. For real.

I refuse to exploit the proletariat coffee pickers and starbucks clerks.

Not really, I just can't stand the taste.

You know that "Rev" is short for reverend.

Well, it is ... I'm just sayin'.

Trust me, it is a regret of mine. But shit, I couldn't wear clothes, or use electronics, buy a girl a diamond, drive a car, or anything if I stopped doing things because capitalists exploit there workers. Christ. I'm not a primitivist anti-materialist.
Sure, I'll be the reverend for love. That's something I can believe in :lol:

Robert

5th October 2011, 04:42

Carefully developed by food researchers with discriminating palates under the pay of capitalists.Yeah, I figured that was coming. But that's a good gig. Sittin' on your rear eatin' Big Macs and fries all day. I fantasize about it sometimes ...

"What do you think of our new super sauce, Rob?"

"Mmmf (chewing), welf, maybe needzh shum shalt ... gimme annuder bite and lemme tink about it."

"Anything else?"

"MMMMF! Yesh, tanks for r'mindin me, bossh! ... can I ge' a raish?"

"A what?"

[swallows] "A raise!"

"Sure! Just keep up the good work, son!"

"Tanks! You're a good bosh, bosh!"

"And you're a good wage slave, you dumb little schmuck."

"Ha ha, you always kiddin' roun', bosh!"

"Shaddup an' eat."

"Okay, you're da bosh!"

RichardAWilson

5th October 2011, 04:58

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uzq_FoZ2ys0/SMfekKvklWI/AAAAAAAAATE/BqIdTu8FWcU/s400/lortabs.jpg + http://smellingthecoffee.com/pics/starbucks_cup.jpg = http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/images/0508-02.jpg

Robert

5th October 2011, 05:16

If anyone tries to question my commitment to the cause because I am drinking a mocha frappe, they will quickly find their white shirt has become a cold, brown, wet oneCold. Brown. Wet.

You know, I swear I thought at first this meant you were going to blast out some diarrhea on me for accusing you of being a sell-out.

I just couldn't figure out how you would manage to defecate loose, watery stool horizontally, through the air, and why it would be cold.

But now I know you meant slosh a little cold coffee on me. I'm not a coffee drinker and didn't know mocha frappes were chilled.

I hope that's what you meant. Heh.

I can figure out most things if you give me enough time.

Revolution starts with U

5th October 2011, 05:37

Diarhea: I do it horizontally :laugh:

Seth

5th October 2011, 05:44

This thread is srs bsns.

RGacky3

5th October 2011, 14:02

You know if you weren't already you would get restricted for drinking Bourgeois coffee.

But does'nt drinking starbucks mean your making a differnce? Thats what the messages on the cup say.

RGacky3

5th October 2011, 14:08

You don't seriously think that's going to happen do you?

A lot of the people there are calling for the same things we call for, well a lot of AMERICANS call for the same things we call for, but you'll only see them one place, Fox News, who will only post stuff to try make them feel bad, I saw one person on fox news, they cut out the whole thing other than "we want to get rid of capitalism," then the croaking crow Ann Culter (a person who looks like she's been dead for 5 years), came on to show how these protesters are like Nazis bla bla bla.

RichardAWilson

5th October 2011, 14:16

Starbucks does make a difference because it's Fair Trade Certified.

RGacky3

5th October 2011, 14:21

Starbucks does make a difference because it's Fair Trade Certified.

Really ... Common now, the workers that work for "fair trade" farms don't really make more money, fair trade is marketing plain and simple, if you REALLY want to make a difference buy from farming cooperatives, but your money is better spent helping revolutionary organizations rather than trying to beat the market.

Revolution starts with U

5th October 2011, 18:37

Are there any national/global co-ops that sell mochas? I'd buy that. I've found a company that does organic mochas, and they were good, but it didn't say anything about mochas :lol:

RGacky3

6th October 2011, 11:25

BTW, the fact that the corporate media is showing real disdain for this thing and the fact that corporate leaders are going out of their way to try and dissmiss this and show disdain for it is very good evidence that they are afraid of whats going on.

RGacky3

6th October 2011, 11:46

RCiAG7LF7Q4

yowhatitlooklike

6th October 2011, 12:23

Well, it wasn't a joke. I was serious. =)

P.S. In case you weren't aware, there is now a Coffee Party Movement.

I thought it was a joke too! Shoulda been a joke, it was funny to me.

BTW, the fact that the corporate media is showing real disdain for this thing and the fact that corporate leaders are going out of their way to try and dissmiss this and show disdain for it is very good evidence that they are afraid of whats going on.
I'm not so sure. I think if anything it's more evidence that they are dismissive of what's going on.

RGacky3

6th October 2011, 12:33

I'm not so sure. I think if anything it's more evidence that they are dismissive of what's going on.

When they go out of their way to be dismissing, its pretty clear historical evidence, they did the smae thing during all social movements, infact you hear it in the Nixon tapes and many internal memos that have become public knowledge.

Its like when you hear something talking all the time and making a huge point saying that something does'nt bother then or they don't care about something, its kind of a sign that they really do care and it does bother them.

yowhatitlooklike

6th October 2011, 12:39

When they go out of their way to be dismissing, its pretty clear historical evidence, they did the smae thing during all social movements, infact you hear it in the Nixon tapes and many internal memos that have become public knowledge.

Its like when you hear something talking all the time and making a huge point saying that something does'nt bother then or they don't care about something, its kind of a sign that they really do care and it does bother them.
Reminds me of my ex

thriller

6th October 2011, 13:09

Has everyone forgotten some Starbucks are organized by the IWW? Those place are cool. Other than that, Steep 'n Brew in a thermos like a boss! (Local fair trade company). Anyhoot about Wall St... Many of the Anon people seem to be social-dems, which a lot of people forgot seem to have started the promoting of this protest. Just my take on it. I'm all for working people getting involved, but what they want, I'm sure if I agree.

RGacky3

6th October 2011, 13:24

Some of them are organized by the IWW, if they are go to those ones, other than that, the corporation of Starbucks is like any other corporation, but sometimes worse.

LuÃs Henrique

6th October 2011, 13:45

You don't seriously think that's going to happen do you?

No, I don't.

But what hinders it is the "left", not the movement.

Luís Henrique

RGacky3

6th October 2011, 14:02

The dailyshow had a great bit on media hypocricy and idiocy about the occupy wallstreet protests.

RichardAWilson

6th October 2011, 16:19

the corporation of Starbucks is like any other corporation, but sometimes worse.

How is Starbucks worse than Wal-Mart? Starbucks isn't importing from slave camps. Fair Tax Certification may have much to do with marketing. (It also has something to do with higher compensation for farmers).

Furthermore, Starbucks does offer competitive wages and benefits that outmatch those in traditional retailing.

Fair Trade Standards require that farmers receive fair wholesale prices for their crops. This ensures that farmers will receive approximately $1.26 per pound of raw coffee beans as opposed to the world market average of $.60.

Starbucks could, of course, do much more. Nonetheless, like you said, it's a shareholder corporation.

Within the confines of being a shareholder corporation, it's not doing that bad of a job.

RGacky3

6th October 2011, 17:01

How is Starbucks worse than Wal-Mart? Starbucks isn't importing from slave camps. Fair Tax Certification may have much to do with marketing. (It also has something to do with higher compensation for farmers).

Its not worse than walmart, and Fair trade certification does very little for the bottom line of farm workers, sure it helps a bit, but its mostly marketing.

Furthermore, Starbucks does offer competitive wages and benefits that outmatch those in traditional retailing.

They also spend a lot of money and time busting unions, and make sure wages are cut and make sure people don't work full time so they can avoid labor laws. Thats why the IWW needed to come in.

Starbucks could, of course, do much more. Nonetheless, like you said, it's a shareholder corporation.

Within the confines of being a shareholder corporation, it's not doing that bad of a job.

Don't go down the path of what I call the CNN/BBC buisiness Liberal, of "lets find buisiness solutions" and trying to praise companies for being "socially conscious," its either almost entirely marketing, and thats the only time its celebrated, or its forced, in which case you only hear about it in leftist media.

Drosophila

7th October 2011, 02:56

#FF0000

7th October 2011, 04:21

I don't expect it to be perfect. I was really skeptical but, hey, maybe it's the start of something good.

RGacky3

7th October 2011, 07:58

They shouldn't be letting capitalist douchebags like Alec Baldwin and George Soros support them. A pretty sloppy movement in my opinion. I don't think it'll last long unless it gets some real backbone.

Why not? Its theire message that counts.

I don't expect it to be perfect. I was really skeptical but, hey, maybe it's the start of something good.

I really think this is the beginning of something good, this is different from wisconsin, its not agianst one bill, its a SYSTEMIC protest, this is revolutionary.

Too all the people that thought class warfare was dead, the left was dead, you were wrong, THIS is the new left, THESE is the new revoutionaries.

RGacky3

7th October 2011, 08:15

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/99percentmovement.jpg

This is Class Struggle if I've ever seen it.

RGacky3

7th October 2011, 08:29

NrbMcDZT3ng

I love what he said about the protesters knowing more than the treasury secutary.

This is the real America, the working class America raising up.

I say the peaceful aspect of the protest is running thin, this is a time that I regret moving from LA.

RGacky3

7th October 2011, 08:44

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/keith-olbermann-occupy-wall-street-media_n_998093.html

Olberman does this brilliently.

Skooma Addict

7th October 2011, 18:52

I am skeptical as to how genuine and spontaneous this OWS movement really is.

RadioRaheem84

7th October 2011, 19:05

I am skeptical as to how genuine and spontaneous this OWS movement really is.

Idiotic. :rolleyes:

Skooma Addict

7th October 2011, 19:10

:crying:

RadioRaheem84

7th October 2011, 19:15

Dude, lets say that for a minute that this movement was not spontaneous. That is was sponsored by the Revolutionary Organization of Revolutionary Workers Ready for Revolution, or what not.

Would it matter? Would it matter one iota, if their message was still in favor of seeing social justice and seeing that the 99% are taken care of in this extremely polarized time where the top one percent control all the country's wealth?

No it wouldn't. Unlike the Tea Party which was astroturfed by major players like Koch Brothers who have a vested interest in having a huge portion of the working class fight for their (Koch's) interests.

Big difference.

RGacky3

8th October 2011, 09:08

I am skeptical as to how genuine and spontaneous this OWS movement really is.

Your right, Obama is behind it.

Bud Struggle

8th October 2011, 13:45

Your right, Obama is behind it.

Herman Cain

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7066/38053137.jpg

(Who may actually get my vote!)

RGacky3

8th October 2011, 16:04

Ahh Herman Cain who is basically the Koch Brothers puppet and made a LOT of money from them. If your voting for Herman Cain your basically voting For the Koch Brothers. (http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/10/07/335968/herman-cain-koch-brothers/)

LuÃs Henrique

8th October 2011, 16:29

I am skeptical as to how genuine and spontaneous this OWS movement really is.

Obviously Al Qaida has been putting LSD in the cofee of the American youngsters too...

Luís Henrique

kapitalyst

8th October 2011, 19:45

I just can't seem to find the recipe that matches up with their delicious flavor. Believe me, when I do find that recipe, I'll never buy another one.
I know that dark chocolate syrup is the way to go. I've figured that out. But, idk... McFrappe's come as a pre-made powder (I think). And to make the mocha joes, I think you mix a whole pot of coffee with a whole half gallon of milk... I just don't have the money to waste that much coffee and milk finding the right mixture :lol:

If you work at it, I bet you can come up with a kick ass recipe nonetheless! :cool:

You need a coffee grinder and some whole bean coffee? I'll send ya some. Pm me.

Revolution starts with U

8th October 2011, 20:06

No I have both. Like I said, I'm working on it. Thanks for the offer tho :D

Robert

8th October 2011, 21:34

Revolution starts with U

8th October 2011, 23:25

Is this the prevailing sentiment on this forum among revolutionaries?

We must give the solutions, and not only focus on the problems. One of the solutions Spanish activists have proposed with the emerging movement of "indignados" is real democracy ....

The Spaniards made other mistakes in the indignados movement, including writing "manifestos" similar to those created by political parties. We must not make propostition on social or economic issues. To bring everyone together, we must focus on criticizing the political system (with all bad consequences that oligarchies create), and we must emergence an alternative: real democracy. Once we live in a democracy, then we can solve all problems through dialogue and transparency.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-wall-street-protesters-do-wrong-read-why/

I see the same kind of thought on this board by some bright guys. What is the problem with manifestos and propositions?

I'm guessing that they are a "centralizing" mechanism influence of some kind that would be repellent to anarchists.

If I'm right, I deserve to be named Honorary Anarchist Du Jour.

I would generally agree with that sentiment. I think we CAN offer solutions. But if I thought MY solutions were anything more than MY solutions, I wouldn't support democracy.

Why are manifestos bad? They're not, really. They serve to give people a common purpose. When they become bad is, so as to say, when they are "written in stone." When a manifesto becomes something that MUST be followed, regardless of the circumstances, it becomes restrictive and unresponsive to the "broken rythym" of time.

This guy can put it better than me:
=7mlYrxYwbvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mlYrxYwbvQ

Robert

9th October 2011, 00:17

When they become bad is, so as to say, when they are "written in stone." That's cool. But see I don't think you are a real commie.
Because commies, even modern commies who claim they aren't Maoists or Stalinists or Leninists, would put the following in stone:

1. In the beginning there was matter. And that's all. Before matter there was nothing. Nobody created it. It just sorta ... materialized.

2. If you entertain the possibility of anything other than matter thou art an [email protected]#$%^&* -hole.

3. Thou shalt not make jokes about ... well, anything really except fascists.
But even then thou may only laugh grimly.

4. Thou shalt honor the working class.

5. Thou shalt work to eliminate all classes except the working class.

6. Property is theft and nobody can own anything except his toothbrush, meaning one. No, not toothpaste and floss too. Can you read?

7. Morality, like gender, is a bourgeois construct.

8. Religion is a tool of the ruling class. Thou shalt not have it.

9. Nothing is immoral because there is only matter, so abortion is okay at any point during a pregnancy. Yes, any.

10. Thou shalt shave no butt but thine own.

I mean, look at all the stuff that's written in stone right here.

kapitalyst

9th October 2011, 00:32

No I have both. Like I said, I'm working on it. Thanks for the offer tho :D

You're more than welcome! I wouldn't begrudge a good comrade for a simple coffee grinder and some fresh beans. :)

You actually dodged my plot to slip some capitalism in your coffee to make you work harder! :lol:

AmericanCommie421

9th October 2011, 01:11

From what I've heard, the occupy wall st. movement isn't really just leftists or liberals or any specific movement. It's pretty much a general movement. And, hey, no matter what it's better than nothing.

LuÃs Henrique

9th October 2011, 01:43

commies (...) put the following in stone:

1. In the beginning there was matter. And that's all. Before matter there was nothing. Nobody created it. It just sorta ... materialized.

2. If you entertain the possibility of anything other than matter thou art an [email protected]#$%^&* -hole.What does this have to do with a revolution?

3. Thou shalt not make jokes about ... well, anything really except fascists.
But even then thou may only laugh grimly.If there isn't place for humour in a revolution, then it certainly isn't my revolution.

Karl Marx's sence of humour is quite noticeable.

4. Thou shalt honor the working class.Why should we "honour" our own class? We fight for it, with it. And we think "honour" is a bourgeois concept. Or a feudal one, most probably.

5. Thou shalt work to eliminate all classes except the working class. We work to eliminate the division of society in classes. Which means, yes, we fight to eliminate the working class too.

6. Property is theft and nobody can own anything except his toothbrush, meaning one. No, not toothpaste and floss too. Can you read?
"Property is theft" is a ridiculous Proudhonist slogan; no actual Marxist takes it slightly in serious.

7. Morality, like gender, is a bourgeois construct.They are social constructs. In a society where the bourgeosie is the ruling class, yes, they are bourgeois constructs. What else could they be? Do you really think the morality of a feudal or slaveholding society is similar to our modern morality? Do you think the concept of gender among the ancient Greeks wasn't different from our concept of gender?

8. Religion is a tool of the ruling class. Thou shalt not have it.It is a lot more complex than that. But yes, overall, it is a reactionary thing.

9. Nothing is immoral because there is only matter, so abortion is okay at any point during a pregnancy. Yes, any.Morality is a social construct, not something inexistent. So that is false: some things are indeed immoral in our point of view - and they are not necessarily the same that are immoral in the point of view of the bourgeois. We deem abortion cannot be made illegal without suppressing rights of actual citizens - it has nothing to do with (im)morality.

10. Thou shalt have no butt but thine own. Then why we keep pwning the butts of you reactionaries?

*****************

So no; perhaps we do set some things in stone, but certainly not the ones you mistakenly believe we do.

Luís Henrique

CommunityBeliever

9th October 2011, 02:01

You actually dodged my plot to slip some capitalism in your coffee to make you work harder! :lol:

Your association of capitalism with hard work is fucking stupid. Who actually works? The workers.

Robert

9th October 2011, 02:23

So no; perhaps we do set some things in stone, but certainly not the ones you mistakenly believe we do.

Fine. At least you agree with me that certain things are set in stone, and so you disagree with Rev Starts with You. Which of you is more representative of Revleft?

And btw, you are just quibbling with verbiage on 2 or 3 that I identify. For some reason.

It doesn't matter. I just want to know why some commies are uneasy with the concept of a manifesto. I guess a constitution like Cuba has would be laughable, but I don't know.

NB: Nothing human is alien was the bright guy I was trying to think of. He has written with care on this point over in the in crowd's thread on Occupy Wall Street.

See here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/occupy-wall-street-t162169/index.html?t=162169

To be honest, I can't tell if he supports the idea of a manifesto or not. Clearly he is at complete odds with the OP.

Revolution starts with U

9th October 2011, 02:26

That's cool. But see I don't think you are a real commie.
Because commies, even modern commies who claim they aren't Maoists or Stalinists or Leninists, would put the following in stone:

1. In the beginning there was matter. And that's all. Before matter there was nothing. Nobody created it. It just sorta ... materialized.

2. If you entertain the possibility of anything other than matter thou art an [email protected]#$%^&* -hole.

3. Thou shalt not make jokes about ... well, anything really except fascists.
But even then thou may only laugh grimly.

4. Thou shalt honor the working class.

5. Thou shalt work to eliminate all classes except the working class.

6. Property is theft and nobody can own anything except his toothbrush, meaning one. No, not toothpaste and floss too. Can you read?

7. Morality, like gender, is a bourgeois construct.

8. Religion is a tool of the ruling class. Thou shalt not have it.

9. Nothing is immoral because there is only matter, so abortion is okay at any point during a pregnancy. Yes, any.

10. Thou shalt shave no butt but thine own.

I mean, look at all the stuff that's written in stone right here.

:laugh: I especially like #3 :lol:

I really don't care what labels are put on anything. Capitalist, socialist, totalitarian, democrat, lover, fighter... not important.
I support what I support because it conforms to my senses. If the oligarchy of capitalism proves to more liberating than an open democratic society of free producers, I will stop supporting socialism. I mean, that's definitionally impossible, but you know...

Nothing is set in stone. It could be true that the majority of workers are just dicks, and it would be better to have a vanguard in charge. It could be that feudalism is more spiritually awakened. It could be that primitivism is the way to go.
I support the vast majority of people having control over their lives and being happy. Whatever fosters that is what I support. And my senses tell me that revolutionary socialism is the way to accomplish that.

But you're not going to stop till you get everyone restricted, eh? :lol: I support your efforts. It just further shows the futility of vanguardism.

Robert

9th October 2011, 02:43

my senses tell me that revolutionary socialism is the way to accomplish that.Fine. Are we gonna put some things in stone after the revolution? Some have a tendency to bandwagon and, worse ... to backslide.

It could be true that the majority of workers are just dicksNo comment. :closedeyes:

I support the vast majority of people having control over their lives and being happy.Can't argue with that. Let's vote on how to get there.

But you're not going to stop till you get everyone restricted, eh? Moi? You wrong me, sir. http://www.wineonthekeyboard.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/AngelSmilie.gif

Revolution starts with U

9th October 2011, 02:50

Can't argue with that. Let's vote on how to get there.

We can try. And sometimes it will work, like how their are union and worker protection laws. And sometimes we will vote on this and the ownership class will not accept, cry foul, and start killing people. And we must take up arms against them.
Other times this will come up to vote, and the system will be so rigged in the favor of one class, the vote might as well have not have happened.
Sometimes there is call for militant dissent (revolutin in the political sense, as opposed to revolution in the sense of replacing the established order like the scientific revolution). Other times there are not. Even Marx supported a little reform here and there, and said in response to those that did not; "if that (absolutely forsaking all reforms) is what it takes to be a Marxist, I am no Marxist."

What is not going to happen is you cornering me into a restrictable stance. And that is not because I care about being restricted... I spend 99% of my time here in OI anyway. It's just that I am going to say what I believe, and invariably that will come back to my core principle of the need for revolutionary leftism. Keep trying tho, I admit it's fun :lol:

LuÃs Henrique

9th October 2011, 03:23

Fine. At least you agree with me that certain things are set in stone, and so you disagree with Rev Starts with You. Which of you is more representative of Revleft?

Maybe there are some things set in stone. Stone however is not eternal...

And btw, you are just quibbling with verbiage on 2 or 3 that I identify. For some reason.

Point them out, and we can discuss if it is just verbiage.

It doesn't matter. I just want to know why some commies are uneasy with the concept of a manifesto.

We are a diverse crowd. Some of us believe things some others don't. I for myself have absolutely no problems with manifestoes.

I guess a constitution like Cuba has would be laughable, but I don't know.

A constitution, naturally, is the magna lex of a State; to the point that we envision a stateless society, we do envision a society without a constitution. But Cuba isn't, and cannot possibly be, a stateless society, considering the international situation; so it has to have a constitution, lest it was an absolute monarchy (like Saudi Arabia for instance). So, no, the fact that Cuba has a constitution isn't laughable at all. But other people may differ - as I said, we are a diverse crowd.

Luís Henrique

Robert

9th October 2011, 04:05

Maybe there are some things set in stone. Stone however is not eternal...Maybe, eh? No offense, but that is a dance.

And I think you are quibbling here:

[(I said) Religion is a tool of the ruling class.] (You said) It is a lot more complex than that. But yes, overall, it is a reactionary thing.
A fair reading would be that I said mostly said the same thing. Let's not argue about things we don't even disagree about. It's a waste of energy.

(Me): Thou shalt work to eliminate all classes except the working class. (You):We work to eliminate the division of society in classes. Which means, yes, we fight to eliminate the working class too.
Yeah, I get that. But it's a semantical quibble. Unless you believe there will be no labor to perform after the revolution, in which case ... I'm not interested.

(Me): Morality, like gender, is a bourgeois construct.

(You) They are social constructs. In a society where the bourgeosie is the ruling class, yes, they are bourgeois constructs.
You see, you go through these contorsions and then agree with me. I think I understand your mindset (you collectively) well enough.

Me: It doesn't matter. I just want to know why some commies are uneasy with the concept of a manifesto. You: We are a diverse crowd. Some of us believe things some others don't.I didn't ask that. But it doesn't matter.

We do envision a society without a constitution.Have a nice day.

LuÃs Henrique

9th October 2011, 04:37

Maybe, eh? No offense, but that is a dance.

Depends on what you call "set in stone". For one, I wouldn't say that anything related to transitory historic situations is "set in stone". So things like "we oppose the bourgueoisie" are only important as long as there is a bourgeoisie. Once it no longer exists, what happens to the stone?

(I said) Religion is a tool of the ruling class.] (You said) It is a lot more complex than that. But yes, overall, it is a reactionary thing.Not everything that is reactionary is "a tool of the ruling class". Maybe to you the difference is unimportant, but to me it is not, because the way we oppose "tools of the ruling class" is different to the way we oppose other things that are "overall reactionary" but aren't "tools of the ruling class".

Otherwise, why make a difference between flu and leprosy, if we can agree that both are diseases?

(Me): Thou shalt work to eliminate all classes except the working class. (You):We work to eliminate the division of society in classes. Which means, yes, we fight to eliminate the working class too. Yeah, I get that. But it's a semantical quibble. Unless you believe there will be no labor to perform after the revolution, in which case ... I'm not interested.It is not a semantic quibble. The obvious implication of "eliminate all classes except the working class" is that we will line them against the wall and shoot them or something to the same effect. This is false. We fight to eliminate the division of society in classes. Once the bourgeois are no longer a bourgeois, ie, are no longer private owners of means of production, we can happily leave them live their lives as members of a classless society.

(Me): Morality, like gender, is a bourgeois construct.

(You) They are social constructs. In a society where the bourgeosie is the ruling class, yes, they are bourgeois constructs.You see, you go through these contorsions and then agree with me. I think I understand your mindset (you collectively) well enough.I am pretty sure that "gender" and "morality" existed long before the bourgeoisie; so no, I don't agree with you. On the contrary, the idea that the bourgeoisie created morality is, in my opinion, completely ridiculous. Feudal lords, slaveowners, and people in primitive classless societies all had firm concepts of morality.

Me: It doesn't matter. I just want to know why some commies are uneasy with the concept of a manifesto. You: We are a diverse crowd. Some of us believe things some others don't.

I didn't ask that. But it doesn't matter. Well, simply, I can't explain you why some "commies" are "uneasy with the concept of a manifesto", because I am not one of such "commies", and I don't know why they reason like that (frankly, it doesn't strike me as a communist thing - more like a "we are tired of politics, politicians, and anything that reminds us of them" thing - but I could be very wrong).

We do envision a society without a constitution.Have a nice day.Well, you too, but the salut doesn't explain why you don't want to discuss the issue.

Luís Henrique

Robert

9th October 2011, 05:07

We can try. And sometimes it will work, like how their are union and worker protection laws.Yes! That's right. There's another guy here named RGacky who reminds us often of these reformative strides by organized labor.

He's restricted, come to think of it.

Even Marx supported a little reform here and thereFine, fine. Thomas Jefferson supported a little rebellion "now and then." Jefferson was great, don't you agree?

What is not going to happen is you cornering me into a restrictable stance. Easy, boy! I know I could never corner you. You're way too slick, especially for the mods. Right?

And that is not because I care about being restrictedWell that's good. :lol:

I spend 99% of my time here in OI anyway. Why? You kinda ... gettin' the feel of things?

It's just that I am going to say what I believe, and invariably that will come back to my core principle of the need for revolutionary leftism.
Any random mod: "You, Reverend, this way. Now."

You: "What'd I do?"

Mod: "You're restricted. This way. Now!"

You: "But I didn't do anything."

Mod: "I ain't here to debate and I'm not gonna tell you again."

You: "What is this? ... Oh wait, that comment about workers being 'dicks' and all? HAHAHAHA. You thought I was serious about that? Come onnnnnnn, that was a joke!!! Can't you take a little jokey? Besides, I said 'maybe they're dicks.' "

Mod (unamused): "So revolution is a 'jokey', is it? You just bought an infraction to go with your restriction, 'comrade.' "

You: "But what about my core principle?"

Mod: "Hey, dude, I got your core principle swingin'. Now get up against that wall. Go on, boy. I just wanna take your picture."

[Sound of bolt opening and round sliding into a chamber]

You: "But what about my core principle!!! Noooooooo!!!!"

Keep trying tho, I admit it's funAs you wish.:cool:

Revolution starts with U

9th October 2011, 07:00

Yes! That's right. There's another guy here named RGacky who reminds us often of these reformative strides by organized labor.

He's restricted, come to think of it.

Rgacky is restricted for his stance on abortion, if I remember correctly.

Fine, fine. Thomas Jefferson supported a little rebellion "now and then." Jefferson was great, don't you agree?

Jefferson had some fine ideas for his time. He was an utterly disgusting slave holder and imperialist. But he was against monarchy :thumbup:

Easy, boy! I know I could never corner you. You're way too slick, especially for the mods. Right?
;)

Well that's good. :lol:

Why? You kinda ... gettin' the feel of things?

Mostly because i have not much to offer there that will not already be covered by friends more knowledgeable in the subject than I. As much as I dislike institutionalizing the vanguard, I consider myself a part of it; taking the fight directly to the minds of the enemy :cool:

Any random mod: "You, Reverend, this way. Now."

You: "What'd I do?"

Mod: "You're restricted. This way. Now!"

You: "But I didn't do anything."

Mod: "I ain't here to debate and I'm not gonna tell you again."

You: "What is this? ... Oh wait, that comment about workers being 'dicks' and all? HAHAHAHA. You thought I was serious about that? Come onnnnnnn, that was a joke!!! Can't you take a little jokey? Besides, I said 'maybe they're dicks.' "

Mod (unamused): "So revolution is a 'jokey', is it? You just bought an infraction to go with your restriction, 'comrade.' "

You: "But what about my core principle?"

Mod: "Hey, dude, I got your core principle swingin'. Now get up against that wall. Go on, boy. I just wanna take your picture."

[Sound of bolt opening and round sliding into a chamber]

You: "But what about my core principle!!! Noooooooo!!!!"

Actually were that real life I would die before capture.
But on some random internet chat board, with random internet people... meh. Were I ever restricted, I would appeal it, because Im a revolutionary leftist. But would I care? Not at all. I need no approval from the politburo :mellow:

As you wish.:cool:[/QUOTE]

RGacky3

9th October 2011, 09:57

Looks like people from Eygpt have come to join too

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/08/occupy-wall-street-washington-square_n_1001775.html

RGacky3

9th October 2011, 12:38

10lrvC-Tekc

Libertarians should thank Bernie Sanders, he's gone after the Fed just as hard if not harder than any libertarian, (i.e. Ron Paul).

I find it funny that libertarians also say regulations are actually good for the big capitalists, yet they spend billions to try get rid of them.

I think one solution is to give support to Credit Unions rather than Banks, Credit Unions are to banks what Cooperatives are to Corporations imo.

kapitalyst

9th October 2011, 13:10

Your association of capitalism with hard work is fucking stupid. Who actually works? The workers.

Your misinterpretation of my joke with RSWU is fucking stupid, no offense... :unsure:

RGacky3

10th October 2011, 09:02

For all those that believed that the US was somehow unique, that American exceptionalism is real, that Europeans are the ones that get angry over economic injustice and protest but not Americans, are obviously wrong, its harder and takes longer for Americans due to the nature and scope of corporate power, but Americans are fundementally the same, they want a fair system.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

11th October 2011, 05:03

Occupy san diego is off and kicking, attended the March from the civic center to a wells Fargo offiice today. Quite nice and the weather was fabulous.
I wouldn't call it a revolutionary socialist gathering, that would be silly. Most definitely a working class thing tho with the exception of some paultards.

[QUOTE=kapitalyst;2251736]If you can, get a cheap coffee grinder. I got one for $10 from Walmart. Then you can buy fresh whole bean coffee (even Starbucks brand) and make it at home.

While were on the subject before they were calling for occupation adbusters was much more modest and asked everyone to give local, indie coffee places a boost at Starbucks expense. I'm all for it, starbucks' coffee is far too sweet for my tastes regardless.

Ps I have to say, if there is even a modest protest in a culture like san Diego than something is up. Not revolt perhaps but its very nice too see some non-tea party anger out there.

#FF0000

11th October 2011, 05:54

While were on the subject before they were calling for occupation adbusters was much more modest and asked everyone to give local, indie coffee places a boost at Starbucks expense. I'm all for it, starbucks' coffee is far too sweet for my tastes regardless

Every bar on the block around the place we're demonstrating has offered up their space as a "base of operations" and the owners of one of them is hooking us up with a full on outdoor concert sound system.

I don't want to post the picture of where this is going down but I really want to show it off and talk about it because it's just incredible how great a place for an occupation it is.

#FF0000

11th October 2011, 08:06

Aaaand he's okay.

200 police officers surrounded the "North Camp" in Boston and arrested about 100 protesters, beating members of Veterans For Peace who were sleeping in the camp.

RGacky3

14th October 2011, 07:44

Zqnf6U8NZmQ

They're trying to shut it down.

(BTW, even though the park is privately owned, its still a public park.)

Bud Struggle

15th October 2011, 00:09

(BTW, even though the park is privately owned, its still a public park.)

No it's private property.

And they shouldn't shut it down.

I would almost think of contacting the owners and paying them personally to keep it open.

The step beyond pizza.

Lenina Rosenweg

15th October 2011, 00:21

No it's private property.

And they shouldn't shut it down.

I would almost think of contacting the owners and paying them personally to keep it open.

The step beyond pizza.

Paying them? Its supposed to be an occupation, pushing somewhat beyond the limits of private property relations.

Pizzas, yay! There should be an Occupy Pizza.One person makes it, a human mike of 40 people shouts out that its ready.

RGacky3

15th October 2011, 10:47

No it's private property.

And they shouldn't shut it down.

I would almost think of contacting the owners and paying them personally to keep it open.

The step beyond pizza.

Its a privately owned public park, the owner does'nt have full "private property" rights over it.

RGacky3

15th October 2011, 16:44

gpNJvWqHQ2A

Bud Struggle

15th October 2011, 16:51

^^^^That's pretty standard stuff in NYC. The building my co-op is in has the same agreement. That being said--in reality the city and the owners can change that agreememt any time they wish. Also the owners have a right to restrict the number of people in the park and what they do. It also has the right to chose the park any time it wants for maintainence.

More on the park's owners and responsibilities.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65950.html

RGacky3

16th October 2011, 10:13

That being said--in reality the city and the owners can change that agreememt any time they wish.

And the city can "decide" that a public park is'nt open to the public, but they'll never do it.

This thing is no different than a public park.

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 22:13

Seems everyone is joining the act. :D

American Nazi Party Declares Its Full Support For Occupy Wall Street Protests

AP

There has certainly been no shortage of vile anti-Semitism at the Occupy Wall Street protests.

The “Occupy Wall Street” Movement — WhiteHonor:

Many racialists are unsure about, and even against, these Occupy Wall Street protests all around the country. It has been pointed out to me that many protesters are non-white and/or “communists.” Well my answer to that is: “WHO CARES?!” They are against the same evil, corrupted, degenerate capitalist elitists that WE are against! Instead of screaming, “6 million more!” The pro-white movementites should be JOINING this Occupy movement and supporting it!

Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/occupy-wall-street/2011/10/15/american-nazi-party-declares-its-full-support-occupy-wall-street-protests#ixzz1bAb4oRyM

Drosophila

18th October 2011, 22:14

I find it fucking hilarious that FOX would put that up on its website.

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 22:26

Anyway: I went down there today. I saw Heraldo Rivera. It's a pretty small park and there are ALOT of people in the park. Maybe about 2000. They were in a relaxed mood when I saw them. Mostly people banging on drums--quite a lot of them.

I don't think there was any Communist signs--or at least I didn't see them. Most of the signs were about "banks" but there were a good smattering of issues from, "No Nukes, no Coal, no Oil" to save the seals.

The people were very friendly, kind of a party. The group was 95% white, scruffy and probably with some college. I talked to a guy from Indiana and he was quite articulate--made a short well reasoned pro American Liberal case for changing the tax structure.

Some girl gave me a muffin. The park was pretty--if you don't mind me saying it--filthy. Lots of somewhat rancid sleeping bags. But that's OK.

I didn't see any Nazis but from what I saw most of the people there were pretty pissed off about the Nazi endorsement as it was a topic of discussion.

If the OWS reminded me of anything (and they weren't protesting when I saw them) it was like a Greatful Dead concert before the band came on.

Anway--really nice people--having a good time and doing what they believed in. They were almost like a tourist attraction.

Judicator

18th October 2011, 22:48

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 22:52

Well everybody knows the Jews control Wall St. so that's not so surprising.

IMjm4LxFa1c

WLSvK2eIoBs

Q55OAozWeNo

Revolution starts with U

18th October 2011, 22:53

Judicator

18th October 2011, 22:58

Its actually a good bit of propaganda for the NAZIs, enemies of class struggle, to try to deligitimize OWS by giving it their endorsement... sort of like anytime the KKK endorses something, everyone opposes it :lol:

Somehow I don't think that crazy woman in Bud's first video had a secret plan to delegitimize OWS. I do think FOX was by reporting on it.

Revolution starts with U

18th October 2011, 23:01

The 2ned and 3rd video are, I believe, the same person :thumbdown:

Robert

18th October 2011, 23:01

Some girl gave me a muffin.

Did it have whacko-tobacco in it?

Good report.

Sounds like Occupy Dallas.

Revolution starts with U

18th October 2011, 23:05

Somehow I don't think that crazy woman in Bud's first video had a secret plan to delegitimize OWS. I do think FOX was by reporting on it.

This literally had nothing to do with my post. You can try again, if you like...

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 23:05

Did it have whacko-tobacco in it?

Good report.

Sounds like Occupy Dallas.

I didn't eat it. I definitely have become a food Nazi the older I get.

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 23:08

The 2ned and 3rd video are, I believe, the same person :thumbdown:

You may be right. I thought the first guy was Black and the second was white--but it could just be the light.

Anyway there's plenty more I could post if you'd like.;)

Revolution starts with U

18th October 2011, 23:13

You may be right. I thought the first guy was Black and the second was white--but it could just be the light.

Anyway there's plenty more I could post if you'd like.;)

You can post as many as you want. So there are a few anti-semites there? Ya, that's terrible. But there were a ton of racists at Tea Party rallies and you didn't see me insinuating anything about it.

;)

Robert

18th October 2011, 23:14

There's a guy wearing an ascot in the crowd. You don't suppose ....:mellow:

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 23:19

You can post as many as you want. So there are a few anti-semites there? Ya, that's terrible. But there were a ton of racists at Tea Party rallies and you didn't see me insinuating anything about it.

;)

YOU didn't; but lots of people (even here on RevLeft) did. I posted the videos because it was news--for no other reason.

Actually, I SUPPORT the OWS movement. Decent honest people were screwed by Wall Street. (The people screwed were not necessarily the slackers in the park--but it's the principal that counts.)

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 23:20

There's a guy wearing an ascot in the crowd. You don't suppose ....:mellow:

I was the guy with the 1% sign!

RGacky3

18th October 2011, 23:34

About that "the OWS are anti-semetic" propeganda

NEPgAp5Mkyc

Its just pathetic.

Robert

18th October 2011, 23:38

But there were a ton of racists at Tea Party rallies

A ton? Wow.

How do you know? I remember some guy offered 10 grand for whoever could produce video evidence of Tea Party guys slurring African American lawmakers as was alleged in the press. No takers.

http://bigjournalism.com/abreitbart/2010/04/26/no-more-beer-summits-tea-party-n-word-incident-didnt-happen-and-the-congressional-black-caucus-owes-america-an-apology/

Sorry, it was $100 grand.

Still no takers.

Bud Struggle

18th October 2011, 23:42

About that "the OWS are anti-semetic" propeganda

NEPgAp5Mkyc

Its just pathetic.

True..........

but they WERE out there and the Communist and Anarchists weren't.

And the WEREN'T. I looked and looked and looked.

Revolution starts with U

19th October 2011, 00:43

A ton? Wow.

How do you know? I remember some guy offered 10 grand for whoever could produce video evidence of Tea Party guys slurring African American lawmakers as was alleged in the press. No takers.

http://bigjournalism.com/abreitbart/2010/04/26/no-more-beer-summits-tea-party-n-word-incident-didnt-happen-and-the-congressional-black-caucus-owes-america-an-apology/

Sorry, it was $100 grand.

Still no takers.

You didn't know? I was referring specifically to their weight :lol:

No, but sorry for the hyperbolic rhetoric. There were "some." :blushing:

Revolution starts with U

19th October 2011, 00:52

No. After watching some videos of the tea partier's signs...
I stand by my use of a ton. There were a ton of racists with signs like "get that Kenyan out" "Obama Plan = white slavery" "the zoo has an african, so does the white house" and bs like that...
There were a ton of racists at tea party rallies.

Revolution starts with U

19th October 2011, 01:06

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv_HmhhUskA

I'll take that 100k now :tt2: (Actually the charity he promised to give it to will take it, because he didn't offer it up as just a general reward)

Che a chara

19th October 2011, 03:37

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltaejldW0q1qap9gno1_500.jpg

RGacky3

19th October 2011, 08:15

True..........

but they WERE out there and the Communist and Anarchists weren't.

And the WEREN'T. I looked and looked and looked.

So your a wealthy forida buisinessman with a family, that joins the IWW and goes to meetings, goes to spain and joins the CNT, and then shows up at different protests and the only specific thing he mentions is Heraldo Rivera, who was all over the news... I don't know man, smells like bullshit.

As far as anarchists and socialists, they are all over the place, read hte signs and look at the polls, if you are looking for the 1910s chariacture of anarchists and the 1950s chariacture of communists you won't find it, because we are in 2011, and the left looks different.

Bud Struggle

19th October 2011, 11:41

So your a wealthy forida buisinessman with a family, that joins the IWW and goes to meetings, goes to spain and joins the CNT, and then shows up at different protests and the only specific thing he mentions is Heraldo Rivera, who was all over the news... I don't know man, smells like bullshit.

As far as anarchists and socialists, they are all over the place, read hte signs and look at the polls, if you are looking for the 1910s chariacture of anarchists and the 1950s chariacture of communists you won't find it, because we are in 2011, and the left looks different.

I was ther for 20 mins. I wasn't there for the protest but I was able to take an A train downtown and take a quick look--my wife was kind enough to let me go.

As far as Anarchists go--there just weren't any specific signs. And EVERYBODY had a home made sign. And as I said--they weren't "protesting" at the time.

RGacky3

19th October 2011, 11:52

As far as Anarchists go--there just weren't any specific signs. And EVERYBODY had a home made sign.

Why would there be specific anarchist signs .... what would they write? "I am anarchist?" Its an anti wall street protest.

Bud Struggle

19th October 2011, 22:40

Why would there be specific anarchist signs .... what would they write? "I am anarchist?" Its an anti wall street protest.

I dunno. I just thought there might be some.

Edit: since I'm off topic a bit let me tell you my Wall Sreet story. Before my wife and I got maried we lived in Connecticut and one day we took a ride down to NYC just for a day vacation. We were walking on Wall Street and we saw this building. First Investors. We walked in (this was before 9/11 security) and I told the receptionist that I was a broker from their Chicago office and I was on vacation in NYC with my wife and that I'd like to see the corporate office.

Some guy showed up gave us a tour of the trading floor and the back room, fed us in the staff dining room and introduced us to the President. We left quite happy.

Here's what I used to do with the banks. Later on I lived in the city my brother used to live there too. So once a month or so we would pick a bank that neither of us had anything to do with and dress up in our grey or blue pinstipe suits and take the elevator up to the executive dining room and have us on hell of a free lunch. Sometimes we took some friends with us. Our monthly lunch club.

Chase, Chemical, Morgan, Williamsburg, a bunch more--all good for a free lunch. :)

#FF0000

20th October 2011, 02:10

free lunch. :)

NO SUCH THING

heuehuahuehuahuehuahuehuaheuahuahe

http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u15/Milton_Friedman.jpg

Bud Struggle

21st October 2011, 18:12

It seems our comrades are going a bit primitive. And this is what I noticed--the park seemed just like a mass of people and tents and sleeping bags all in the middle of "normal."

Here's a guy taking a dump on a police car:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/08/article-2046586-0E481DB700000578-865_634x366.jpg

And piles of trash:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/08/article-2046586-0E4811E800000578-156_634x414.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/08/article-2046586-0E4811D800000578-825_634x331.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046586/Occupy-Wall-Street-Shocking-photos-protester-defecating-POLICE-CAR.html

Revolution starts with U

21st October 2011, 18:14

The pooping on the police car is old news, bro.

Bud Struggle

21st October 2011, 18:24

How 'bout this:
1,200 Occupy Wall Street products on eBay

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/44229

October 12, 2011 by Don Surber

There are more than 1,200 Occupy-related products now on sale on eBay.

Isn’t capitalism grand?

I figure the products are being aimed at the young and dumb crowd that is watching this retro-protest safely from their homes in suburbia.

The products are mainly T-shirts.

But some posters and bumper stickers are available — as are campaign buttons.

Most popular are those V For Vendetta masks, which are also good for Halloween or any Guy Fawkes dance one might be invited to.

Dan Gainor, Vice President for the Media Research Center, discovered this cornucopia of capitalism on eBay.

From Dan Gainor: “Since Occupy Wall Street is costing millions in police overtime and hurting nearby businesses, it’s nice to know it is adding something to the economy. Do these count as saved or created jobs under Obama?”

The real question is whether any of these anti-capitalists taking the streets to support the government are paying sales taxes. They sure are not collecting them on eBay.

As James Taranto observed on Tuesday: “What’s their slogan going to be, ‘Smash the system — re-elect the president’?”

Now we know the answer: “’Smash the system — buy our T-shirts.”

Bud Struggle

21st October 2011, 18:26

How 'bout this:
1,200 Occupy Wall Street products on eBay

October 12, 2011 by Don Surber

There are more than 1,200 Occupy-related products now on sale on eBay.

Isn’t capitalism grand?

I figure the products are being aimed at the young and dumb crowd that is watching this retro-protest safely from their homes in suburbia.

The products are mainly T-shirts.

But some posters and bumper stickers are available — as are campaign buttons.

Most popular are those V For Vendetta masks, which are also good for Halloween or any Guy Fawkes dance one might be invited to.

Dan Gainor, Vice President for the Media Research Center, discovered this cornucopia of capitalism on eBay.

From Dan Gainor: “Since Occupy Wall Street is costing millions in police overtime and hurting nearby businesses, it’s nice to know it is adding something to the economy. Do these count as saved or created jobs under Obama?”

The real question is whether any of these anti-capitalists taking the streets to support the government are paying sales taxes. They sure are not collecting them on eBay.

As James Taranto observed on Tuesday: “What’s their slogan going to be, ‘Smash the system — re-elect the president’?”

Now we know the answer: “’Smash the system — buy our T-shirts.”

http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/44229

Robert

21st October 2011, 19:52

All that trash was left by Tea Party activists trying to make OWS look irresponsible.

The guy pooping on the car is Sarah Palin.

#FF0000

21st October 2011, 19:53

"hehehehehe look @ these occupy nerds buying things what hypocrites"

And then someone bombs trains in berlin and they get mad.

criticize when people try and go the peaceful route but then don't complain when the RAF visits your hometown.

(its not even like OWS is all that radical anyway -- yet)

Robert

21st October 2011, 20:10

Bud Struggle

21st October 2011, 20:13

No, they aren't hypocrites.

Neither were hippies. But the capitalists snapped and hijacked their revolution too and started selling all kinds of psychedelic black light thingies,
tie-dyed shirts, bongos, Back to Nature Shampoos and love beads.

The masses bought the beads. But that's about it.

It's how the Capitalists fight back. Not with guns, not with words, not with protests but with T-shirts.

And they're winning. :D

Robert

21st October 2011, 20:35

Capitalists don't really want to stomp out communism. We want it marginalized, but everlasting, so that we can compare and contrast.

"See there, Junior? That's how people in Russia and East Germany lived. Would you like to live like that?"

"No, I don't think I could ever get ... juched to it, Dad."

"Hahahahaha, that's my boy!"

RGacky3

22nd October 2011, 00:00

Not with guns, not with words, not with protests but with T-shirts.

And they're winning. http://www.revleft.com/vb/occupy-wall-st-t162083/revleft/smilies/biggrin.gif

Its not the REAL capitalists making money off t-shirts, its savy dudes with a good idea, I got no problem with that.

As far as winning, selling some T-shirts is'nt winning, changing the narrative of a nation is.

Bud Struggle

22nd October 2011, 00:10

Its not the REAL capitalists making money off t-shirts, its savy dudes with a good idea, I got no problem with that.

As far as winning, selling some T-shirts is'nt winning, changing the narrative of a nation is.

True, but it's becomming obvious that ---These aren't the guys to do that.

OeuGx8PplAo

Robert

22nd October 2011, 01:20

OWS is aimless littering.

on edit: yes, noise pollution is a kind of litter. (Does a guy wearing a jester's hat expect to be taken seriously by anybody? Man this movement went south fast!)

RedGrunt

22nd October 2011, 02:18

No, they aren't hypocrites.

Neither were hippies. But the capitalists snapped and hijacked their revolution too and started selling all kinds of psychedelic black light thingies,
tie-dyed shirts, bongos, Back to Nature Shampoos and love beads.

The masses bought the beads. But that's about it.

Wait wait wait. They also bought pharmaceutical drugs.

Robert

22nd October 2011, 02:31

Allllrighty, then.

#FF0000

22nd October 2011, 02:55

Its not the REAL capitalists making money off t-shirts, its savy dudes with a good idea, I got no problem with that

Nah. They're slime actually.

B5C

22nd October 2011, 05:24

OeuGx8PplAo

What is wrong singing "Fuck America?" We do have the freedom of speech and the ideals of protest.

Revolution starts with U

22nd October 2011, 07:14

Hey, Bud and Robby... you've been cooped up in your tower for too long.

Love is an action, a choice to be made, regardless of what anyone else is doing :cool:

Bud Struggle

22nd October 2011, 12:08

What is wrong singing "Fuck America?" We do have the freedom of speech and the ideals of protest.

I completely agree. Please sing it as loud and as many times and in as many places as you desire.

Robert

22nd October 2011, 13:20

What is wrong singing "Fuck America?" We do have the freedom of speech and the ideals of protest.

I'll let you sort out the internal contradiction in your statement if you can.

But what's "wrong" with it is that it's vulgar, noisome and stupid.

It is legal, though, and you should sing it loud and often so that everyone understands better what you represent.

Thug Lessons

22nd October 2011, 13:52

Nah. They're slime actually.
But small business owners!~ *waves arms around frantically and hyperventilates*

Revolution starts with U

22nd October 2011, 17:53

I'll let you sort out the internal contradiction in your statement if you can.

But what's "wrong" with it is that it's vulgar, noisome and stupid.

It is legal, though, and you should sing it loud and often so that everyone understands better what you represent.

Now there's an answer more fitting of our refined intelligence :cool:

Bud Struggle

22nd October 2011, 18:57

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg

Bardo

22nd October 2011, 19:01

^I don't see how this makes the current political system any less plutocratic.

#FF0000

22nd October 2011, 19:07

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg

"I DON'T EXPECT HANDOUTS"
-Receives scholarships-

Bud Struggle

22nd October 2011, 19:24

"I DON'T EXPECT HANDOUTS"
-Receives scholarships-

I kind of agree. But at least there's a but of them being earned in some way--getting good grades. Those sorts of handouts sould only be availible to people that earn them--not to everyone.

#FF0000

22nd October 2011, 21:58

I kind of agree. But at least there's a but of them being earned in some way--getting good grades. Those sorts of handouts sould only be availible to people that earn them--not to everyone.

also what handouts are occupy wall street people demanding?

and if this dumb fuck is so concerned with people getting what they work for, then why is this champion lashing out at people who are protesting against the scrillions of taxpayer fliff given out to pay for the golden parachutes for the human garbage that almost took down the entire world economy.

Good job, idiot w/ sign You work hard. So does everyone else, and we're all making less and less every year while top-level executives literally make mountains of extra money every.single.god.damn.year. and its not because everyone but executives are suddenly lazy.

aristos

22nd October 2011, 22:56

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN2LZ8N2uj0&feature=channel_video_title

RGacky3

22nd October 2011, 23:41

So basically if the only way to make it in the system is to have a shitty 20s and perhaps 30s, the solution is to shut up and suck it up, not try have a better system.

I'm stick of all these personal responsibility arguments, no shit you need personal responsibility, but why should we have a system that makes it harder and harder to live well.

Encorporation and corporate personhood is the biggest handout in history.

B5C

23rd October 2011, 00:23

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7325/imagesizerfilenullc4f59.jpg

Bud Struggle

23rd October 2011, 01:23

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsxv5c8yvV1r3jpwdo1_400.jpg

Who ever knew he'd end up on Wall Street? :D

B5C

25th October 2011, 20:37

Scientists join the movement:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2011/10/24/hungry-for-jobs-and-for-change-scientists-join-the-occupy-movement/

Ele'ill

25th October 2011, 20:44

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg

....And if I were to suddenly fall ill in conjunction with any other minor expense I would lose my apartment, my school and probably my job which would spiral me into infinite debt and ruin my life forever.

Ele'ill

25th October 2011, 20:48

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg

...and after I graduate I will continue to live in absolute poverty like this, barely hanging on, for the rest of my life.

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 20:50

....And if I were to suddenly fall ill in conjunction with any other minor expense I would lose my apartment, my school and probably my job which would spiral me into infinite debt and ruin my life forever.

The question would be though: what does that have to do with any of us? What you do, what happens to you, what decisions you make or don't make is entirely your business.

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 20:52

...and after I graduate I will continue to live in absolute poverty like this, barely hanging on, for the rest of my life. Nope. I rather think that's they guy that's going to do well. He doesn't waist his time worrying about what society whould or shouldn't do. He'll do what he needs to do well.

Die Rote Fahne

25th October 2011, 20:52

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg
I would like this imbecile to offer reasoning WHY things should be this way.

Revolution starts with U

25th October 2011, 21:01

Nope. I rather think that's they guy that's going to do well. He doesn't waist his time worrying about what society whould or shouldn't do. He'll do what he needs to do well.

Well, as has been said to you numerous times. I could have lived in the age of slavery and just worried about myself. But I would rather have been an abolitionist, because you know.. ending slavery is more important than my new carriage.

RedGrunt

25th October 2011, 21:01

The question would be though: what does that have to do with any of us? What you do, what happens to you, what decisions you make or don't make is entirely your business.

Absolutely nothing, you're totally right Bud Struggle. We're just individuals whom exist independently of everything, and everyone, around us including our immediate communities and society as a whole.

Social organization through individualism!

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 21:16

Well, as has been said to you numerous times. I could have lived in the age of slavery and just worried about myself. But I would rather have been an abolitionist, because you know.. ending slavery is more important than my new carriage.

EXACTLY. That's you dong what you want to do with whom you want to do it with. That's your choice and it should be your choice. If other desire to take other routes--then that should be their choice. Even if you don't like it.

Absolutely nothing, you're totally right Bud Struggle. We're just individuals whom exist independently of everything, and everyone, around us including our immediate communities and society as a whole.

Social organization through individualism!

If you want social organization--then find one for yourselves. Society as a whole, American society, isn't like that. We do things here individually. Make our own way, occasionally build a road ogether or fight a war--but in the end you take care of yourself and I will take care of me and mine.

You had that securit when you were living at home. Now you are big boys and girls and have to make your way in the world. And now you have to take care of yourself.

It's hard work, but you can do it.

ComradeMan

25th October 2011, 21:19

You had that securit when you were living at home. Now you are big boys and girls and have to make your way in the world. And now you have to take care of yourself.
It's hard work, but you can do it.

Thanks dad....!

Bud, you are in danger of beginning to sound like an old fart!!! :D

Come on, give people some benefit of the doubt too... the world isn't exactly a very fair and just place at the moment either.... ;)

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 21:40

Thanks dad....!

Bud, you are in danger of beginning to sound like an old fart!!! :D

Come on, give people some benefit of the doubt too... the world isn't exactly a very fair and just place at the moment either.... ;)

:D

Everybody sounds like "boo ho ho, who's going to take care of me?" Part of growning up isn't only to have fun--but to find a way to pay your bills and do what you need to do to stay alive.

CM, you've been here a long time like me, do you ever here of Communists talking about what they can build or what they are going to offer society? Nope, it's all about, "dude drugs are going to be free!"

What are people's concerns? and it's all about what am I going to get. The capitalists are ripping us off and I want free healthcare.

Making a living is hard work, pre or post revolution.

RedGrunt

25th October 2011, 21:52

You just don't get it, and you can go on and continue with your petty dismissals that don't have a foundation in reality.

Revolution starts with U

25th October 2011, 22:00

:D

Everybody sounds like "boo ho ho, who's going to take care of me?" Part of growning up isn't only to have fun--but to find a way to pay your bills and do what you need to do to stay alive.

CM, you've been here a long time like me, do you ever here of Communists talking about what they can build or what they are going to offer society? Nope, it's all about, "dude drugs are going to be free!"

What are people's concerns? and it's all about what am I going to get. The capitalists are ripping us off and I want free healthcare.

Making a living is hard work, pre or post revolution.

That's just absolute bullshit from top to bottom. Where are these "drugs are going to be free" posts?
This is borderline flaming Bud...

(And we're arguing over how we can take care of each other, not how everyone can take care of us. Get it right.)

... seems your money hasn't bought you any happiness :rolleyes:

Ele'ill

25th October 2011, 22:03

The question would be though: what does that have to do with any of us? What you do, what happens to you, what decisions you make or don't make is entirely your business.

This has nothing to do with what I said. ;)

My response to this new topic however is that it isn't my decision to be poor and it isn't my decision to fall ill. Notice, despite that person's optimistic and 'go for it' attitude- they're still poor (hopefully not sick too) and what they've 'worked their ass off for' wouldn't cover a fraction of their actual current living expenses. 30 hours a week? LOL, I put in 50 and still have big problems. They are not representing anything other than a very lucky, privileged and temporary position that some people hold for a while- They are preparing to move their position forward within society with 'handouts'.

Nope. I rather think that's they guy that's going to do well. He doesn't waist his time worrying about what society whould or shouldn't do. He'll do what he needs to do well.

Ok. Millions of people are proving both of you wrong right now.

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 22:03

You just don't get it, and you can go on and continue with your petty dismissals that don't have a foundation in reality.

No, reality is THIS! What we have right now. This IS the system. Anything else is just dreaming. Well now maybe your dreams will come true and they'll be a Revolution. But if I were you, I wouldn't count on it.

I wish you the best, though.

Revolution starts with U

25th October 2011, 22:08

No you don't. That's just posturing. You can't run from your own mind Bud, and that's why you're so pissed off right now...

Much love :tt1:

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 22:09

That's just absolute bullshit from top to bottom. Where are these "drugs are going to be free" posts?
This is borderline flaming Bud...

(And we're arguing over how we can take care of each other, not how everyone can take care of us. Get it right.)

... seems your money hasn't bought you any happiness :rolleyes:

I wasn't flaming. I was using the drugs as a metaphor. (Maybe not a good one.) Anyway. My point is that this is the society we have and that's the way most people want it.

Secondly, no--we don't discuss how we can take care of each other as far as I can see.

Ele'ill

25th October 2011, 22:10

No, reality is THIS! What we have right now. This IS the system. Anything else is just dreaming. Well now maybe your dreams will come true and they'll be a Revolution. But if I were you, I wouldn't count on it.

I wish you the best, though.

This same rhetoric was babbled off at every major turning point in history. 'This is the way it is, things will never change' babbled off at dinner regarding the end of slavery etc..

Revolution starts with U

25th October 2011, 22:12

I wasn't flaming. I was using the drugs as a metaphor. (Maybe not a good one.) Anyway. My point is that this is the society we have and that's the way most people want it.

Secondly, no--we don't discuss how we can take care of each other as far as I can see.

Because you don't want to. ;)

RedGrunt

25th October 2011, 22:17

And the reality of this system... inefficiency and illogicality. It's also cruel, not so much to me or us Americans but the global poor. Which you don't get. I find it odd that the only time, as suggested by you, that we can all get together is in building a road(and wait.. have you seen U.S.A.'s infrastructure lately.. rather outdated and unkept.) and going to war.. We always can get together to bomb other nations in the name of our corporate freedom.

And I really don't deny personal responsibility or even individualism. But neither are fully realized in our society as citizens of the U.S. or of the world.

(And we're arguing over how we can take care of each other, not how everyone can take care of us. Get it right.)

Bud Struggle

25th October 2011, 22:24

This same rhetoric was babbled off at every major turning point in history. 'This is the way it is, things will never change' babbled off at dinner regarding the end of slavery etc..

As I said--I wish you the best. On the other hand do you really think anything has ACTUALLY changed? I really wonder sometimes if there is a thing called progress. Yea, there are minor tweeks, but over all is being a citizen of the US much different than being the citizen of the Roman Empire. The citizens of he empire live better than most of the world, the rich still are rich and rule things, the poor still are the poor.

People in subject nations don't do pretty well at all. Physical slavery is a bit worse than financial slavery, I'll admit that.

There are a lot more niceities now but it seems at bottom things really haven't changed.

I'm not so sure about the idea of Progress at all.

Anyway, I'm sick and I'm grumpy, too. :(

Ele'ill

25th October 2011, 22:37

As I said--I wish you the best.

Talk is cheap.

On the other hand do you really think anything has ACTUALLY changed? I really wonder sometimes if there is a thing called progress. Yea, there are minor tweeks, but over all is being a citizen of the US much different than being the citizen of the Roman Empire. The citizens of he empire live better than most of the world, the rich still are rich and rule things, the poor still are the poor.

I think consciousness has changed and is changing. The power structures causing the issues have only been slightly altered and only at times- it's not consistent.

I'm not so sure about the idea of Progress at all.

When you sit down to paint or to figure out a mathematical equation or engineering 'problem' do you consider the time you spend trying to create, build or work-out as something other than progress towards your goal? A lot of what we've built and worked towards may not have physically torched a part of the system but instead acts to protect us, heal us, acts as a base camp for us, brings us together, strengthens and networks, helps us plan the series of fatal blows we will one day deliver.

Robert

26th October 2011, 01:51

This same rhetoric was babbled off at every major turning point in history.Wait a second ... the question is whether we are even at a major turning point in the first place. You say we are, as evidenced by ... what? OWS? Winter's coming. You sure the majority won't settle for a few tax reforms and tell the occupiers to go home?

As for "babbled rhetoric", just because there are skeptics and counterrevolutionaries doesn't mean every revolution succeeds. We can assume the Russian bourgeoisie chuckled a little at Lenin. They got shot for laughing (reminds me of Revleft a little), but what followed Lenin more than validated their skepticism.

DinodudeEpic

26th October 2011, 03:34

:D

Everybody sounds like "boo ho ho, who's going to take care of me?" Part of growning up isn't only to have fun--but to find a way to pay your bills and do what you need to do to stay alive.

CM, you've been here a long time like me, do you ever here of Communists talking about what they can build or what they are going to offer society? Nope, it's all about, "dude drugs are going to be free!"

What are people's concerns? and it's all about what am I going to get. The capitalists are ripping us off and I want free healthcare.

Making a living is hard work, pre or post revolution.

I could care less about sharing crap. I care more about wrecking the corporations down to bring democracy to the economy. Although welfare is nice, it isn't my main focus. My main focus is actually is to rip the individual from his rich overlords who do everything for him, basically turn into a MAN (No offense to women, then say WOMAN...) instead of a wage slave who has to rely on the pennies that the corporation gives to him.

Robert

26th October 2011, 04:03

Nope, it's all about, "dude drugs are going to be free!" You don't have to extrapolate much to see where Bud is coming from:

First, it's clear all drugs after the revolution will be legal:

ALL leftists should support the freedom of people to take whatever substance they want if they choose to. Banning drugs is reactionary, not taking them. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1898244&postcount=4

+

If I can't get high it's not my revolution. Death to all moralist counterrevolutionaries. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1898261&postcount=11

+

(funniest retort ever):

1. Drugs are used as a way of keeping the proletariat down and divided. No they're not, they bring us together. Have you never heard of people coming together to smoke a bowl, or whatever?
Yeah, whatever:rolleyes:

+

I fully endorse an educated, liberated relationship with drugs for those who feel that they can benefit from it. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1898302&postcount=19

Add that to

By communism I mean the actual stateless, moneyless society in which the people determine what to do. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2263035&postcount=3

and all the "to each according to his needs" sloganeering, it's a short step to:

"Dude drugs are going to be free!"

If that's not right, who here is going to charge a comrade money for drugs after the revolution?

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 04:26

Lets forget that you are taking most of those out of context but... Oct of last year? How long did it take you to put those 4 together? :rolleyes: (Again, can we get a rolling eyes emote that's not smiling?)

o well this is ok I guess

26th October 2011, 04:31

Free pizza. This is by far the best part about the occupy movement.

You can always count on unions to order pizza.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 05:47

The question would be though: what does that have to do with any of us? What you do, what happens to you, what decisions you make or don't make is entirely your business.

Because it can happen to almost anyone, Bud. Unexpected medical issues are what get most people stuck under mountains and mountains of debt in the first place.

What does it have to do with us? It has everything to do with us because it happens to us.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 05:50

Robert

26th October 2011, 12:54

How long did it take you to put those 4 together?No time at all. They're all in the same thread, and it's one of my favorites!

"Let's do a bowl or whatever."

Gets me every time.

RGacky3

26th October 2011, 13:06

If you want social organization--then find one for yourselves. Society as a whole, American society, isn't like that. We do things here individually. Make our own way, occasionally build a road ogether or fight a war--but in the end you take care of yourself and I will take care of me and mine.

It takes so much propeganda and tons of historical amnesia to believe that somehow Americans are different than everyone else in the world.

The myth of American individualism or that somehow Americans are differant and have different asperations than everyone else in the world is nothing more than idiotic nationalism mixed with ignorance.

Robert

26th October 2011, 13:12

Welcome to America, where everyone is lonely and hates everything.

No.

Bud Struggle

26th October 2011, 13:47

It takes so much propeganda and tons of historical amnesia to believe that somehow Americans are different than everyone else in the world.

The myth of American individualism or that somehow Americans are differant and have different asperations than everyone else in the world is nothing more than idiotic nationalism mixed with ignorance.

Don't be absurd. Different people want different things. America has put together a pretty darn good system in which lots of people (not everyone) do pretty darn good for themselves. There are ups and downs of course, but it's a system where people can be different and go after different goals and yet still amlost everyone can be successful at what they want to do.

America is exceptional. And further if you are exceptional in America you do very, very well. And if you aren't, you don't do that bad either.

Bud Struggle

26th October 2011, 13:49

Welcome to America, where everyone is lonely and hates everything.

I'm down here in the Keys for Fantasy Fest--and I don't see that at all. It's one big party.

RGacky3

26th October 2011, 14:28

Don't be absurd. Different people want different things.

No shit, but its not like the average American is fundementally different from the average french man, or average Bolivian.

Its the same bullshit propeganda spit out by the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Soviet Empire, they all thought they were special. I've got news for you, Americans are not special, they are not different, they have the same basic desires as everyone else in the world.

America has put together a pretty darn good system in which lots of people (not everyone) do pretty darn good for themselves.

Well, comparing it to the rest of the industrialized world its pretty sub-standard, and even if it worked in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, its not working anymore.

There are ups and downs of course, but it's a system where people can be different and go after different goals and yet still amlost everyone can be successful at what they want to do.

Social mobility in the US is worse than most other industrialized countries ...

and almsot EVERY industrialized country allows people to be different and have different goals.

And the ups and downs are ups for the ruling class and the downs for everyone else.

Your living in the 1950s dream land and your parroting propeganda that flew back then, but sounds stupid now (and was stupid all along).

America is exceptional. And further if you are exceptional in America you do very, very well. And if you aren't, you don't do that bad either.

Comparing it to the rest of the industrialized world? With similar per capita CDPs? Not really. America is not exceptional, other than in your dilusional jingoistic mind.

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 16:27

No time at all. They're all in the same thread, and it's one of my favorites!

"Let's do a bowl or whatever."

Gets me every time.

So 1 thread from a year ago is your proof that all we talk about is free drugs (or even talk about it often)? Seriously, come off it...

Revolution starts with U

26th October 2011, 16:28

Bud Struggle's argument in a nutshell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdJRDpLHbw

Impulse97

26th October 2011, 16:38

man i don't want to be all "prolier than thou" but honestly how many working people do you think drink that shit

*raises hand*

I just can't seem to find the recipe that matches up with their delicious flavor. Believe me, when I do find that recipe, I'll never buy another one.
I know that dark chocolate syrup is the way to go. I've figured that out. But, idk... McFrappe's come as a pre-made powder (I think). And to make the mocha joes, I think you mix a whole pot of coffee with a whole half gallon of milk... I just don't have the money to waste that much coffee and milk finding the right mixture :lol:

Cold pre-made goo to be exact. lol They suck compared to Starbucks, but they're much cheaper. It's $5.72 at Starbucks if I get my mocha the way I like it, but only $3.30 at McD's.

Bud Struggle

26th October 2011, 16:55

No shit, but its not like the average American is fundamentally different from the average french man, or average Bolivian.

Its the same bullshit propeganda spit out by the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Soviet Empire, they all thought they were special. I've got news for you, Americans are not special, they are not different, they have the same basic desires as everyone else in the world. But how they choose to execute and fulfill those desires is fundamentally different.

Well, comparing it to the rest of the industrialized world its pretty sub-standard, and even if it worked in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, its not working anymore. Well, no. The only comparable countries are China and Russia and maybe India. Plus the US has a huge Third World nation to our south that sends in millions of people that have to be absorbed into the mix.

All in all there are by far more people that became millionaires in the US than the rest of the world combined.

#FF0000

26th October 2011, 16:59

No.

Nah that actually seems pretty true to life from what I've experienced.

(i also like how this is the only post y'all looked at, it seems)

USMBRefugee

26th October 2011, 17:29

This has nothing to do with what I said. ;)

My response to this new topic however is that it isn't my decision to be poor and it isn't my decision to fall ill. Notice, despite that person's optimistic and 'go for it' attitude- they're still poor (hopefully not sick too) and what they've 'worked their ass off for' wouldn't cover a fraction of their actual current living expenses. 30 hours a week? LOL, I put in 50 and still have big problems. They are not representing anything other than a very lucky, privileged and temporary position that some people hold for a while- They are preparing to move their position forward within society with 'handouts'.

Ok. Millions of people are proving both of you wrong right now.

To the bolded; exactly!

I remember about 20 years ago, when things were actually quite good (by comparison) I had a little chat with my mother. She was under the impression that homeless people choose to be so. All of them, every single last one. They just frittered away every opportunity, and landed on the street. So we had a 'come-to-Jesus' chat.

I told her what IF Dad took ill. Lingering illness. His insurance didn't cover everything, and then he died. His life insurance got eaten by the hospitalization. You can't work, you haven't in decades and your health won't permit. You lose the house, and none of us are speaking to you (she was a contentious ... may she rest in peace).

Then what. Really - then what. See how it can happen? There's a reason we say "there, but for the grace". Bad things happen to good people ALL the damn time, and I'm sick of hearing them maligned as weak, losers, lazy, etc.

RGacky3

26th October 2011, 20:32

But how they choose to execute and fulfill those desires is fundamentally different.

The only difference is their options and possibilities, Americans have much fewer options, both Frenchmen and Americans can start their own sole propriatorships or small buisinesses if they want, try join a Union as an American :).

Well, no. The only comparable countries are China and Russia and maybe India.

India was colonized until recently, China was a monarchy until recently, then it suffered a civil war for a long time, they just got their independance a couple days ago. Russia Suffered HUGE looses in both WW1 AND WW2, and went through 1 giant revolution and then a destruction of the Soviet Union.

THe US has been around well over 200 years, and the worst thing that has happened to it recently was a little bombing raid on a naval base (not even a city) and 2 buildings got knocked down. And they came out of WW2 as the only real untouched power and basically had the world market.

So no, it is'nt comparable.

All in all there are by far more people that became millionaires in the US than the rest of the world combined.

Really? You wanna put money on that? Also yeah, therea re more millionaires in the US than other countries, because the US is the financial super power of the world, but compare the US to other industrialized parts of the world (china is'nt industrialized, niether is India), such as Europe, when it comes to your average joe and Amercans are doing worse and are gonna be doing even more worse.

Because the American model does'nt work anymore, its broken, and you can't fix it, you need to replace it.

Bud Struggle

26th October 2011, 22:04

The only difference is their options and possibilities, Americans have much fewer options, both Frenchmen and Americans can start their own sole propriatorships or small buisinesses if they want, try join a Union as an American :). Some of us want biger businesses. ;)

India was colonized until recently, China was a monarchy until recently, then it suffered a civil war for a long time, they just got their independance a couple days ago. Russia Suffered HUGE looses in both WW1 AND WW2, and went through 1 giant revolution and then a destruction of the Soviet Union.

THe US has been around well over 200 years, and the worst thing that has happened to it recently was a little bombing raid on a naval base (not even a city) and 2 buildings got knocked down. And they came out of WW2 as the only real untouched power and basically had the world market.

So no, it is'nt comparable. And yet you say wer're not charmed? :D

Really? You wanna put money on that? Also yeah, therea re more millionaires in the US than other countries, because the US is the financial super power of the world, but compare the US to other industrialized parts of the world (china is'nt industrialized, niether is India), such as Europe, when it comes to your average joe and Amercans are doing worse and are gonna be doing even more worse.[/quote] Nope we have the most millionaires by far. I didn't total it up--but you can bet the picture.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/109838/countries-with-the-most-millionaires

Because the American model does'nt work anymore, its broken, and you can't fix it, you need to replace it. It has to be tweeked, but I'm sure when we get someone like Romney in the White House and have a good Republican Congress things will go back to normal.

Robert

26th October 2011, 22:43

Nah that actually seems pretty true to life from what I've experienced.

(i also like how this is the only post y'all looked at, it seems)

You're just low and lonely. Not everybody is.

Worse, I sent a couple responses via my Dingleberry and they got posted according to that device, but I don't see the posts here.

They were probably the greatest posts in history but now they're gone, like my landlord's smile, gone, gone, away.

Bud Struggle

26th October 2011, 23:06

You're just low and lonely. Not everybody is.

Worse, I sent a couple responses via my Dingleberry and they got posted according to that device, but I don't see the posts here.

They were probably the greatest posts in history but now they're gone, like my landlord's smile, gone, gone, away.

You can always tell when I'm posting on my Dingleberry. I spell like Gacky. :D

B5C

27th October 2011, 01:28

This stuff needs to be spread on the internet:
OZLyUK0t0vQ

This is the woman who was injured:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg

RGacky3

27th October 2011, 08:27

That picture is the same picture that comes out if tyrannical regeims.

Some of us want biger businesses. ;)

... ok, and some people want to be royalty ...

And yet you say wer're not charmed? :D

No response to that, I'll assume you have none.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-bud...t-millionaires (http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/109838/countries-with-the-most-millionaires)

.... yes .... Nothing I did'nt say.

It has to be tweeked, but I'm sure when we get someone like Romney in the White House and have a good Republican Congress things will go back to normal.

That I'll put money on. Your country is turning into a Banana republic and your sitting with your head in the sand waving an american flag.

RGacky3

27th October 2011, 08:38

#FF0000

27th October 2011, 11:22

You're just low and lonely. Not everybody is

No more than anyone else is, guy.

Lenina Rosenweg

27th October 2011, 11:38

I'm down here in the Keys for Fantasy Fest--and I don't see that at all. It's one big party.

Sounds like fun. Wish I could afford to go there. Wish I could afford to go anywhere.If I can't go to the Keys though, maybe there's an Occupy demo I can rattle up bus fare for.

RGacky3

27th October 2011, 11:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Struggle http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2276372#post2276372)
I'm down here in the Keys for Fantasy Fest--and I don't see that at all. It's one big party.
Sounds like fun. Wish I could afford to go there. Wish I could afford to go anywhere.If I can't go to the Keys though, maybe there's an Occupy demo I can rattle up bus fare for.

Buds just being a dick, his whole thing is shitting on anyone trying to do something positive.

Bud Struggle

29th October 2011, 15:17

Sounds like fun. Wish I could afford to go there. Wish I could afford to go anywhere.If I can't go to the Keys though, maybe there's an Occupy demo I can rattle up bus fare for.

I wish you could go, too. :)

USMBRefugee

29th October 2011, 17:27

BTW with that picture (and others of state brutality), thats another way you can tell the ruling class are scared of the occupy movements, you did'nt see any of this with the tea-baggers , why? because they were just astro-turf shrilling for the powerful.

Exactly. I perceived it as them just wanting to take down Obama. It was all about him. It was all his fault.

I'm sure you all saw the Rick Santelli 'plant' article? I'm too new to post it, but I'll find a way ...

ritholtz dot com/blog/2009/02/rick-santellis-faux-rant/

Just add the early stuff and make the dot a .

RGacky3

30th October 2011, 08:35

Exactly. I perceived it as them just wanting to take down Obama. It was all about him. It was all his fault.

Sure, but Obama is probablt the most pro-buisiness democrat thats ever held the office, there is no reason any even moderate leftist should support him.

Far Leftists always knew he was a major let down, because we followed the money, also his senate mentor was Joe Lieberman .... all you need to know.

Bud Struggle

31st October 2011, 22:50

A REAL LIFE COMMIE visits OWS!

Some 50 Occupy Wall Street protesters saw red yesterday -- giving an enthusiastic welcome to a genuine communist.
Alex Callinicos, a professor of European Studies at Kings College in London, announced to his rapt audience, “I am a Marxist.’’
Asked if the upcoming revolution can be non-violent, he parroted the party line of the demonstrators, who call themselves the 99 percent of Americans lined up against the “1 percent’’ with power and money.

http://m.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/ows_camp_gets_really_commie_cal_77d2HZTSJ9EDLk01OK OjVM

#FF0000

1st November 2011, 00:06

But there's lots there

it's not like he was the first one

geesh

Bud Struggle

1st November 2011, 02:28

But there's lots there

it's not like he was the first one

geesh

You kidding? The OWSers are all wrapped up in copywrite law. :D

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP72d08a25e8084c25beb180b9df78f471.html

NEW YORK — Anti-Wall Street demonstrators in New York City are trying to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall Street" before anyone else does first.

Attorney Samuel Cohen represents the protesters in Zuccotti Park. He says they applied Oct. 24 to trademark the name of their movement with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

Cohen says the filing was a "defensive move" to ensure that nobody tried to use the "Occupy Wall Street" name for "improper purposes."

The application says the group wants to use the phrase in newsletters and periodicals. It also wants use for merchandise, and on an informational website.

On Oct. 18, Robert Maresca of West Islip (EYE'-slihp), N.Y., filed to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall St" — with the word "street" abbreviated. The protesters' application spells out the word "street."

Che a chara

1st November 2011, 02:40

You kidding? The OWSers are all wrapped up in copywrite law. :D

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP72d08a25e8084c25beb180b9df78f471.html

NEW YORK — Anti-Wall Street demonstrators in New York City are trying to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall Street" before anyone else does first.

Attorney Samuel Cohen represents the protesters in Zuccotti Park. He says they applied Oct. 24 to trademark the name of their movement with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

Cohen says the filing was a "defensive move" to ensure that nobody tried to use the "Occupy Wall Street" name for "improper purposes."

The application says the group wants to use the phrase in newsletters and periodicals. It also wants use for merchandise, and on an informational website.

On Oct. 18, Robert Maresca of West Islip (EYE'-slihp), N.Y., filed to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall St" — with the word "street" abbreviated. The protesters' application spells out the word "street."

As a "defensive move" would this not mean that they don't want their slogan to be used unscrupulously and slanderously (say by Fox) and by others for exploitive financial gain for motives not related ?

I'm sure there are 'non-profit' organisations that had to trademark their name and slogans for similar purposes.

AerodynamicOwl

1st November 2011, 07:07

As a "defensive move" would this not mean that they don't want their slogan to be used unscrupulously and slanderously (say by Fox) and by others for exploitive financial gain for motives not related ?

I'm sure there are 'non-profit' organisations that had to trademark their name and slogans for similar purposes.

Pay no mind to these guys. They cant argue about the message so they nitpick minor things hoping you might not notice.

RGacky3

1st November 2011, 08:28

Some 50 Occupy Wall Street protesters saw red yesterday -- giving an enthusiastic welcome to a genuine communist.
Alex Callinicos, a professor of European Studies at Kings College in London, announced to his rapt audience, “I am a Marxist.’’
Asked if the upcoming revolution can be non-violent, he parroted the party line of the demonstrators, who call themselves the 99 percent of Americans lined up against the “1 percent’’ with power and money.

Not the first time at all, Chomsky was there, Richard wolff was there, Tom Morello was there, tons and tons of other people that call themselves socialists and/or marxists have already been there. Infact the DSA is there, the IWW is there and so on.

B5C

1st November 2011, 20:51

http://cdn.front.moveon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/the-most-heartbreaking-99-graphic-you-will-see-this-week-full.jpg

Dean

2nd November 2011, 02:47

You kidding? The OWSers are all wrapped up in copywrite law. :D

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP72d08a25e8084c25beb180b9df78f471.html

NEW YORK — Anti-Wall Street demonstrators in New York City are trying to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall Street" before anyone else does first.

Attorney Samuel Cohen represents the protesters in Zuccotti Park. He says they applied Oct. 24 to trademark the name of their movement with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

Cohen says the filing was a "defensive move" to ensure that nobody tried to use the "Occupy Wall Street" name for "improper purposes."

The application says the group wants to use the phrase in newsletters and periodicals. It also wants use for merchandise, and on an informational website.

On Oct. 18, Robert Maresca of West Islip (EYE'-slihp), N.Y., filed to trademark the phrase "Occupy Wall St" — with the word "street" abbreviated. The protesters' application spells out the word "street."

Trademarking something for particular use prohibits others from using it for that purpose. If they don't want others to exploit OWS, then it is critical to trademark the name within specific industries - i.e. merchandising.

ZeroNowhere

2nd November 2011, 03:04

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lta95kTesV1r16jr3o1_400.jpg
Wow, Bug Struggle posting a picture of a guy trolling. That's like a troll within a troll. Metatrolling?

Bud Struggle

3rd November 2011, 22:50

Here's some interesting fact about who the Occupy Wall Streeters really are.

Many “Occupy Wall Street” protesters arrested in New York City reside in more luxurious homes than some of their rhetoric might suggest, a Daily Caller investigation has found.

For each of the 984 Occupy Wall Street protesters arrested in New York City between September 18 and October 15, police collected and filed an information sheet recording the arrestee’s name, age, sex, criminal charge, home address and — in most cases — race. The Daily Caller has obtained all of this information from a source in the New York City government.

Among addresses for which information is available, single-family homes listed on those police intake forms have a median value of $305,000 — a far higher number than the $185,400 median value of owner-occupied housing units in the United States.

Some of the homes where “Occupy” arrestees reside, viewed through Google Maps and the Multiple Listing Service real estate database, are the definition of opulence.

Using county assessors and online resources such as Zillow.com, TheDC estimated property values and rents for 87 percent of the homes and 59 percent of the apartments listed in the arrest records.

Even in the nation’s currently depressed housing market, at least 95 of the protesters’ residences are worth approximately $500,000 or more.

The median monthly rent for those living in apartments whose information is readily available is $1,850.

Slideshow of the homes of the "99 percent" here. (http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/opulent-homes-of-the-99-percent-slideshow/)

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/nyc-arrest-records-many-occupy-wall-street-protesters-live-in-luxury/

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 08:47

Does'nt tell me anything, other than they live on the coasts, also chances are the ones being arrested are the more idealistic young ones, who probably come from universities and so on.

Bud Struggle

4th November 2011, 13:28

Does'nt tell me anything, other than they live on the coasts, also chances are the ones being arrested are the more idealistic young ones, who probably come from universities and so on.

Ypi are a Great American Gack, but how about this? It seems rape is now a problem for the people living near Wall street. That can't police themselves for violent crime.

http://news.yahoo.com/kitchen-volunteers-sex-assault-arrest-shocks-zuccotti-park-215348689.html

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 13:35

Ypi are a Great American Gack, but how about this? It seems rape is now a problem for the people living near Wall street. That can't police themselves for violent crime.

Ypi?

As for the sexual assualt, yeah, some douch bag came in to try and take advantage of the situation, and the occupiers got rid of him and sent him over to the police.

There are protests in thousands of cities, involving 100s of thousands of protesters, that are being violently opposed by police, and your assuming some douch bags might not take advantage of the situatoin? No shit they will. But for the most part the occupiers are taking care of that.

Bud Struggle

4th November 2011, 13:42

Ypi?

As for the sexual assualt, yeah, some douch bag came in to try and take advantage of the situation, and the occupiers got rid of him and sent him over to the police.

There are protests in thousands of cities, involving 100s of thousands of protesters, that are being violently opposed by police, and your assuming some douch bags might not take advantage of the situatoin? No shit they will. But for the most part the occupiers are taking care of that.

No I just think that the kind of people these are. A bunch of freaks and harries that kind of do whatever they want and get away with whatever they can.

Look at this story on "drummers." Is there anything normal about this stuff?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/10/wall-street-occupiers-fear-drummers-will-be-their-undoing/44085/

I assume the Oakland crowd is verymuch the same thing. It's not a universal movement--it's just people out for a good time at he expense of their neighbors.

Robert

4th November 2011, 13:51

It's not a universal movement--it's just people out for a good time at he expense of their neighbors.

They'd better clean up their act before the neighbors get tired of it and the whole thing backfires.

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 13:57

No I just think that the kind of people these are. A bunch of freaks and harries that kind of do whatever they want and get away with whatever they can.

Look at this story on "drummers." Is there anything normal about this stuff?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...undoing/44085/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/10/wall-street-occupiers-fear-drummers-will-be-their-undoing/44085/)

I assume the Oakland crowd is verymuch the same thing. It's not a universal movement--it's just people out for a good time at he expense of their neighbors.

Well it does have a 60% approval rating (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/poll-most-americans-support-occupy-wall-street-taxing-millionaires/246963/) (higher than the tea party was EVER) ... But yeah, 1000s of cities, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of protesters, 1 sexual assualt, and some drummers that don't want to quit drumming, and you go out on a limb and say

"The whole occupy movement is a bunch of freaks and harries, and the kind of people THEY ARE are obviously just criminals."

You making assumptions out of ignorance, but ignorance comming from you isn't supprising to anyone. What must be suprising to you is your old timy idiotic notion that "class struggle is dead" that you were preaching here forever, now that its apparent that its obviously not, your just now trying to smear the movement out of total ignorance.

Thankfully however, most Americans are more informed than you, and judge differently.

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 13:58

it's just people out for a good time at he expense of their neighbors.

You'd think that a Capitalist would praise that sort of thing, considering thats what capitalism is all about.

Bud Struggle

4th November 2011, 14:04

You'd think that a Capitalist would praise that sort of thing, considering thats what capitalism is all about.

I think what they need to do is sell their ideas to the American people--and I don't think that is happening.

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 14:18

I think what they need to do is sell their ideas to the American people--and I don't think that is happening.

60% of the United States would dissagree with you.

Robert

4th November 2011, 14:19

Support exists and is widespread (across borders), but it's hardly overwhelming. And it may be dropping. I don't see how it can FAIL to drop.

This poll is from yesterday:

http://www.redstate.com/repair_man_jack/files/2011/11/OWSpoll.jpg

More unfavorable than favorable in all four income ranges.

But a CNN poll shows an overall increase in support, from 27% up to 36% who support the "overall position" of OWS, whatever that means: end the fed? end capitalism? stop bank bailouts? reduce income disparities? stop ALL foreclosures? (What if an entrepreneur bought a mansion and can't pay? Forgive his debt too?) All of the above?

I wish CNN would re-poll the public and see what percent approve of the tactics at Oakland, both the demonstrators and the police response.

Robert

4th November 2011, 14:22

60% of the United States would dissagree with you.

You got a current and independent poll on this?

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 14:26

I got it from here. (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/poll-most-americans-support-occupy-wall-street-taxing-millionaires/246963/)

Heres another one giving them 54% favorable vrs 23% unfavorable. (http://www.srbi.com/Economics_2011_Poll.html)

Anyway, whatever the poll numbers you can't say this is'nt resonating with the US people, not even the Vietnam protests in the 60s (much less the tea party) had ANYTHING near these approval ratings in the begining, and generally the begining of movements have low approval ratings.

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 14:33

Also its already having a political effect as there is a bill to undo citizens united (money in elections was a big part of the occupy movement).

Robert

4th November 2011, 14:34

That was before Oakland, but at any rate I can't reconcile the number (59%) with either the CNN or the Quinnipiac poll, both newer.

Robert

4th November 2011, 14:37

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 14:42

It will fail, but you realize that if they do that, then they can also stop unions and interest groups like the Sierra Club from running public interest ads as well, right? That's what started Citizens United: an anti-Hillary Clinton ad funded with corporate money.

No one here is backing Hillary, anyway, Unions and the Sierra Club are nothing compared to corporate groups, and they loose more due to having money in politics and will gain getting it out.

No one is bought by labor in the government, its corporations that are bidding the highest.

Robert

4th November 2011, 15:05

I know no one here is backing Hillary. But leftists make it sound like Exxon and ConAgra install puppets in government with their money. It's just wrong, what else can I tell you?

And I seriously doubt the unions would be as happy as you would be if CUnited were reversed. Check the amount of union money that went into the last election and see where it went. Now, quick ... who got elected?

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 15:09

But leftists make it sound like Exxon and ConAgra install puppets in government with their money. It's just wrong, what else can I tell you?

They LITERALLY write the bills many times .... I mean common.

Check the amount of union money that went into the last election and see where it went. Now, quick ... who got elected?

Check the amount of money in general.

Robert

4th November 2011, 15:23

Fine.

Just so long as you know exactly what you're praying for: No groups, incorporated or not, can raise and funnel any money for any political cause.

Bud Struggle

4th November 2011, 15:40

Well it does have a 60% approval rating (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/poll-most-americans-support-occupy-wall-street-taxing-millionaires/246963/) (higher than the tea party was EVER) ... But yeah, 1000s of cities, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of protesters, 1 sexual assualt, and some drummers that don't want to quit drumming, and you go out on a limb and say

"The whole occupy movement is a bunch of freaks and harries, and the kind of people THEY ARE are obviously just criminals."

You making assumptions out of ignorance, but ignorance comming from you isn't supprising to anyone. What must be suprising to you is your old timy idiotic notion that "class struggle is dead" that you were preaching here forever, now that its apparent that its obviously not, your just now trying to smear the movement out of total ignorance.

Thankfully however, most Americans are more informed than you, and judge differently.

Lets see if it turns out to be anything when it comes to elections. Which are the only thing that matters in the end (unless you think there's going to be some Revolution in the near future :rolleyes:.) The Tea Party certainly did a good job of turning their beliefs into political clout.

I don't think these guys have what it takes. Actually what they need is a guy to take charge--if that happens they might have a chance, but as things stand it's going to rain a bit and snow a bit and come January the bulldozers will come in and clear away a mountain of soggy moldy sleeping bags and that will be the end of Occupy Wall Street.

Sad really. I do agree that the rich have too much and the poor too little and I think a fairere disibution of the wealth would benefit everyone--but I don't see these guys as the people to geth that message across.

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 15:52

Lets see if it turns out to be anything when it comes to elections. Which are the only thing that matters in the end (unless you think there's going to be some Revolution in the near future http://www.revleft.com/vb/occupy-wall-st-t162083/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif.) The Tea Party certainly did a good job of turning their beliefs into political clout.

Elections are not what matter really, what matters is political pressure after the elections, FDR would have juts been the same as Obama had it not been for the pressure from the left.

Actually what they need is a guy to take charge

Thats exactly what they don't need.

but I don't see these guys as the people to geth that message across.

But they ARE getting the message across, now that inequality is something everyone is talking about.

brawler5k2

4th November 2011, 16:05

One thing I'm curious about is whether this movement will actually last more than the end of winter, as in will it be able to survive the harsher conditions and less support it'll inevitably receive?

trivas7

4th November 2011, 17:10

I think what they need to do is sell their ideas to the American people--and I don't think that is happening.
OWS is an international movement that challenges the foundations of our global system of corporatism and greed in a uniquely 21st century form. It's a movement without party politics. Inspired by the advances of communication that have empowered us to function without authority; it allows every voice to at last be weighed truly as equal per direct democracy. It's a movement that doesn't bring a list of demands to the powers that be but instead suggests that we can build a different society. We don't need banks and politicians running our lives.

No demand is big enough. (http://www.alternet.org/story/152903/occupy_wall_street%3A_no_demand_is_big_enough/)

Bud Struggle

4th November 2011, 17:37

OWS is an international movement that challenges the foundations of our global system of corporatism and greed in a uniquely 21st century form. It's a movement without party politics. Inspired by the advances of communication that have empowered us to function without authority; it allows every voice to at last be weighed truly as equal per direct democracy. It's a movement that doesn't bring a list of demands to the powers that be but instead suggests that we can build a different society. We don't need banks and politicians running our lives.

No demand is big enough. (http://www.alternet.org/story/152903/occupy_wall_street%3A_no_demand_is_big_enough/)

Maybe, maybe not. For each economic demand of the OWS there is some druid with some plan for magic triangles and some girl with pink hair getting hit on from some biker spouting free love.

I see the alt media sites, but I've also been to the OWS in NYC, Ft Lauderdal and Orlando and I don't see it taking over much more than he parks they are in.

Now granted I could be wrong--but I don't see the big economic institutions being challenged at all.

Hey, I could be wrong. Let's see how this all plays out.

Impulse97

4th November 2011, 18:25

Maybe, maybe not. For each economic demand of the OWS there is some druid with some plan for magic triangles and some girl with pink hair getting hit on from some biker spouting free love.

I see the alt media sites, but I've also been to the OWS in NYC, Ft Lauderdal and Orlando and I don't see it taking over much more than he parks they are in.

Now granted I could be wrong--but I don't see the big economic institutions being challenged at all.

Hey, I could be wrong. Let's see how this all plays out.

OWS never could challenge them and it never will. The US proletariat is too undeveloped. The proof of this is in the simple fact that they decry violence and have stated that they do not seek to change the system, but merely institute a far left liberal version of it. Keith Olberman would be the closest thing to a leader they could hope for and perhaps with him at the helm, they'll get a few more friendly politicians in congress and pass a few substantial reforms. Essentially, they'll get what they seek, capitalism with a smiley face painted on it and a few more pennies per hour at work. Olberman even said; (paraphrased) "They, [OWS] don't want to get rid of capitalism. They're saying 'once you have capitalism don't let a few tilt the scales so far in their favor that the majority are thrown into poverty.' ".

They are in essence, real left liberals of olde. Not what the WC needs, but a promising start.

RGacky3

4th November 2011, 18:30

I don't know, the liberal media desperately wants to paint this as not being against capitalism, but if you listen to the street, there are a lot of people that are against Capitalism.

Ele'ill

4th November 2011, 18:52

I assume the Oakland crowd is verymuch the same thing. It's not a universal movement--it's just people out for a good time at he expense of their neighbors.

A couple things on this. The news people only show up when things are happening- having a month go by and then there's an incident 'near' or 'in' a camp where a knife is involved or something is stolen and the police end up getting involved isn't an 'across the board representation of how every minute of every camp is operating' :rolleyes: Please don't get too embarrassingly asinine with how you're processing information.

Second- there is a shift of consciousness occurring within the movement (and receive this knowing it's coming from someone who has spent as much time at the camps as they have their full time job) where we're realizing that the camps need to operate as more of a sounding board for working class action than as an actual village. This is being recognized by people everywhere. You know, hence the general strike in Oakland that shut down the ports. Hence the thousands who took the streets and bridges in Portland alongside Oaklanders. Looking at those pictures and talking with people who were there- I dunno- I saw a lot of 'neighbors' marching.

trivas7

4th November 2011, 19:17

[...]The proof of this is in the simple fact that they decry violence and have stated that they do not seek to change the system, but merely institute a far left liberal version of it. [...]
Point me to an official OWS document that states this.

Non-violence is consistent with our ends and has been used successfully in past struggles. Clearly our power comes only from our numbers -- but enough now to shut down banks and hold a general strike resulting in shutting down a prominent port. What possibilities exist when our numbers are large, the global economy continues to deteriorate and whole societies look for a way out?

Bud Struggle

5th November 2011, 16:36

Triumph visits OWS

http://teamcoco.com/video/triumph-occupy-wall-st

He seems to put it all in perspective.

Robert

5th November 2011, 16:57

deleted

Bud Struggle

5th November 2011, 17:09

deleted

SAY IT, Comrade Rob!

Robert

5th November 2011, 17:17

Oh, nothing, really. Just wanted to say that I am in complete solidarity with OWS.

And with ... the Wall.

trivas7

6th November 2011, 15:55

Triumph visits OWS

http://teamcoco.com/video/triumph-occupy-wall-st

He seems to put it all in perspective.
Just like yours on this forum, Bud.

Impulse97

9th November 2011, 01:48

Point me to an official OWS document that states this.

Non-violence is consistent with our ends and has been used successfully in past struggles. Clearly our power comes only from our numbers -- but enough now to shut down banks and hold a general strike resulting in shutting down a prominent port. What possibilities exist when our numbers are large, the global economy continues to deteriorate and whole societies look for a way out?

I don't need one. There have been multiple cases of OWS'ers shouting down there own who threw rocks at the pigs and even those who only got in their face a bit. You'd have to be blind not to know that. If I can get that info off the news you should have known that if you really are in the middle of it.

It is a good tactic at first and has worked well, but it can't be an end all tactic which is what they seem to make it out to be. How many times are you going to let the pigs kick you in the teeth before you start fighting back?

Is it time for such actions now? Perhaps not, but it must happen eventually.