Arguing with a racist -_-

[Catmatic Leftist]

I need help explaining to this guy why his statement is racist. He keeps making excuses for himself and it seems that anything his critics say goes through one ear and out the other. Here is his argument:


My opinion is that we'll never really know. As an American, you can look around and notice that there are a disproportionately high number of blacks who are in prison and who are professional athletes, you will also notice that there are more Asians in Mathematics and Science programs, etc. But I think, as others have pointed out, it all comes down to culture. Asian cultures care a great deal more about science and math than your average family from a different race. Inner city blacks are often brought up believing that the only chance they have to make it in life is to become a criminal, an athlete, or a musician of some sort (usually a rapper). Because of this people have different priorities pushed on them at an early age. An Asian kid will work harder at math and science, a black kid will work harder at sports, etc. This explains the disparities that we see later in life.

With all that said, I don't take the liberal stance that every culture is equal and wonderful and blah blah blah. I think each culture has its pros and cons and some cultures are clearly superior to others. For example, I think black culture holds black people back more than anything else in society. Not even getting into the fact that black culture has its roots in "cracker culture" (ie the culture of poor antebellum southerners brought over from Scotland), black culture holds blacks back in many ways. From the label of "Uncle Tom" going to anybody who is black and becomes successful from anything other than sports or music, to the idea that everybody hates blacks. There have been studies on this, black kids are brought up to believe that if anybody doesn't like them, it is because they are black. Black high school students were surveyed and whenever they did poorly on tests, they blamed it on the teachers for not liking them because they were black. Even if the teacher was black. Not only does this push away any form of accountability and responsibility for their actions, but it also makes them think that they can't improve their lives because everybody is out to get them. A good example of this thought process in the media, Kanye West who honestly believed that his mother died in surgery because the surgeons didn't like her because she was black. Among many other ludicrous beliefs held by him and countless others. Then there is the welfare culture that the liberals have consistently pushed on them. The welfare state has been like a cancer for blacks in America. Pretty much every negative black stereotype that we have today is largely due to the welfare state. From blacks being criminals, to black women having loads of children and not knowing who the fathers are, etc.

For anybody that is interested more on what I've said, I would highly recommend Thomas Sowell's work. He is a brilliant black economist and social critic who shatters most of the myths out there regarding race and inequality. He has loads of books out and several videos on YouTube, some of which are fairly long and more in depth.

[tir1944]

Why is this statement racist?

[hatzel]

Why is this statement racist?

Probably because of the whole "African-Americans are often of a lower social standing because 'black culture' is inherently inferior and really they're all a bunch of fucking crybabies"-thing...

[ВАЛТЕР]

Blacks aren't good at sports because they are black, it is because in the United States they make up much of the lower class, therefore they have far more motivation to succeed in sports since many of them view it as the only way they can make it out of poverty. In the early 1900 it was Italians and Irish who were growing up dreaming of being boxers and baseball players, since they were discriminated against. Same goes for why they are in prison, it is because they make up much of the poor.

Blacks in Africa do not act in this way, they do not call people "Uncle Toms" and whatnot, so it is idiotic to assume ALL blacks act in this way.

As for "Asians being smarter" that's fucking stupid as well. Their culture encourages studies. Therefore they are growing up studying hard and learning. It isn't because they are Asian, but because of their culture. Look at an Asian kid adopted by white parents. Should he/she be some mathematics wiz kid as well? Well according to this guys logic they should because race has something to do with mental capacity/ability to learn. Culture matters, not race. Nurture OVER nature...

There is nothing to argue with this person about, he is a lost cause and should get his ass beat into a coma...

[hatzel]

As for "Asians being smarter" that's fucking stupid as well. Their culture encourages studies. Therefore they are growing up studying hard and learning. It isn't because they are Asian, but because of their culture.

Did you even read what the guy said? I quote (with emphasis added):


[T]here are more Asians in Mathematics and Science programs, etc. But I think, as others have pointed out, it all comes down to culture. Asian cultures care a great deal more about science and math than your average family from a different raceYou're saying exactly the same thing the guy said, yet calling him "a lost cause" who "should get his ass beat into a coma." Up your debating skills.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Did you even read what the guy said? I quote (with emphasis added):

You're saying exactly the same thing the guy said, yet calling him "a lost cause" who "should get his ass beat into a coma." Up your debating skills.

Oh, well that part is not racist, it is true. The culture focuses on education more so than others...

The part about blacks is bullshit though...Sorry, It's 1:38 here and I am tired as shit...

[Lobotomy]

Arguing with a racist -_-

That's your first mistake.

[Kitty_Paine]

Blacks aren't good at sports because they are black, it is because in the United States they make up much of the lower class, therefore they have far more motivation to succeed in sports since many of them view it as the only way they can make it out of poverty. In the early 1900 it was Italians and Irish who were growing up dreaming of being boxers and baseball players, since they were discriminated against. Same goes for why they are in prison, it is because they make up much of the poor.

Blacks in Africa do not act in this way, they do not call people "Uncle Toms" and whatnot, so it is idiotic to assume ALL blacks act in this way.

As for "Asians being smarter" that's fucking stupid as well. Their culture encourages studies. Therefore they are growing up studying hard and learning. It isn't because they are Asian, but because of their culture. Look at an Asian kid adopted by white parents. Should he/she be some mathematics wiz kid as well? Well according to this guys logic they should because race has something to do with mental capacity/ability to learn. Culture matters, not race. Nurture OVER nature...

There is nothing to argue with this person about, he is a lost cause and should get his ass beat into a coma...

As far as I read he didn't blame "Asians being smarter" on race, he said culture. Same for black people. I believe he said it did come down to cultural matters.

As for this guy, I don't think he's necessarily racist... I just think he's not very good at writting or getting his thoughts down on paper very well. So it comes out more racist than it should. At least thats kind of what I thought after reading it... :closedeyes:

[Catmatic Leftist]

That's your first mistake.

Now that I think about it, you're right. I got carried away.

It just happened in the midst of the thread of an entirely unrelated topic. I just had to have a go at him. I told him off, but he just continued to make excuses for his bigotry even though at least 10 others on that forum were criticizing him. Damn, I gotta control myself...

[ВАЛТЕР]

Now that I think about it, you're right. I got carried away.

It just happened in the midst of the thread of an entirely unrelated topic. I just had to have a go at him. I told him off, but he just continued to make excuses for his bigotry even though at least 10 others on that forum were criticizing him. Damn, I gotta control myself...

Reminds me of myself. I jump at every perceived injustice like a madman...then end up getting myself in a situation I could have easily let slip by. Meh, oh well sometimes it's good to show your teeth and let people know where you stand.

[hatzel]

An issue here is that s/he is right in some aspects, but presumably coming from a totally different angle. For instance, in saying "[b]lack high school students were surveyed and whenever they did poorly on tests, they blamed it on the teachers for not liking them because they were black," s/he is raising a legitimate issue; the effect of stereotype threat, along with confirmation bias, isn't one which should be overlooked, and is it true that a black student will - in a society in which black students are expected to underperform - find their blackness (so to speak) detrimental to their progress within academia, either through being marked lower by a subjective teacher, or themselves underperforming through a belief that they inevitably will. And, of course, it doesn't matter whether the teacher is black, if they expect black students to underperform, or if if the black students themselves expect to underperform. The issue is that s/he seems to be identifying a legitimate concern of black students (that they may be victimised for being black, and will underperform in school because of it), before instantly writing it off as something not worth attention. Problematic, that...

[Rafiq]

Well there is a genetic aspect to it we cannot deny. A lot of kidnapped Africans during the slave trade, for example, worked to death and a result adapted to being very fast and strong. This is why a lot of athletes are African American, not only because of the poor background they came from, sometimes it is genetics. The same could be said about people in the 'Nordic' areas who had to deal with the harsh conditions of the cold.

Also, I don't think 'Race' really exists, even among the people's of Africa, you will find in different regions people look different. It is not about culture, because culture is just a reflection of the mode of production. Culture is a reflection of humans organizing and hunting together etc, just like Internet regulations are a reflection of the creation of the Internet.

Culture is a response.

[Kitty_Paine]

Well there is a genetic aspect to it we cannot deny. A lot of kidnapped Africans during the slave trade, for example, worked to death and a result adapted to being very fast and strong. This is why a lot of athletes are African American, not only because of the poor background they came from, sometimes it is genetics. The same could be said about people in the 'Nordic' areas who had to deal with the harsh conditions of the cold.

Also, I don't think 'Race' really exists, even among the people's of Africa, you will find in different regions people look different. It is not about culture, because culture is just a reflection of the mode of production. Culture is a reflection of humans organizing and hunting together etc, just like Internet regulations are a reflection of the creation of the Internet.

Culture is a response.

I might be wrong but doesn't it take quite a long time for a species to go through genetic evolution? And if you're talking about the European slave trade, that's only a few hundred years for natural selection to take place. Not nearly enough time to make any really difference in the genetic make up of African-Americans. I'm no Scientist though so feel free to prove me wrong...

And "Race" doesn't exist? How not? Race just classifies humans into groups based on "looks" essentially (black, white, etc.) and/or where their ancestors are from. And when you talk about those groups from different areas who look kind of different, you're talking about Ethinic groups. So are you saying because there are different Ethinc groups in a Race, Race is irrelevant? Just wondering...

And culture, really? You don't think a persons culture has anything to do with how they act or think? Or were you trying to say something else?

[Oswy]

I need help explaining to this guy why his statement is racist. He keeps making excuses for himself and it seems that anything his critics say goes through one ear and out the other. Here is his argument:

It seems like they are confusing culture and socialisation with 'race' (of the biological kind). Orthodox science tday, and for some time now, has rejected the idea of biological races in humans - human variation and relatedness is complex, clinal and non-coterminous. Race as a social construct is real, however, that is to say racial identity and behaviour which fits, by some degree or other, impositions and expectations of 'race' are real because humans have for some time been under the illusion that they, and others, are members of 'races' and have been subject to, or subjected others to, formal and informal socialisation which constructs racial identities. If we recognse that the Afro-American experience of racism has been heavily mingled with, and has indeed helped to create, their status in the class structure (at the bottom) then this helps explain their social and cultural orientations (culture doesn't exist in a vacuum). As for Afro-Americans being atheletes, the scientific studies show that world-class athletes associated with those of African origins are in fact limited to relatively narrow geographic associations within Africa, i.e. it's not about being of African origin but of having ancestral links to a few places in Africa which are believed to have encouraged advantageous physiology. Notice how there aren't very many world-class long-distance runners who are associated with West African heritage just like there aren't many (if any) world-class sprinters associated with East African heritage.

Besides, where a group of people have been, and continue to be, the subject of all kinds of racism which affect their success in life, it stands to reason that they would gravitate to activities which can't so easily be subject to the 'hidden hands' of racism. Athletics and sports are just such spheres where, for example, if you win races it's hard to deny your success. Beyond this role-models for marginalised groups have an infection quality, young black men in the US no doubt see older generations of black men being successful in spheres like sports, entertainment, acting and so on, and are more likely to aspire to those spheres than those where black people have, or appear to have, less success.

[Oswy]

...

And "Race" doesn't exist? How not? Race just classifies humans into groups based on "looks" essentially (black, white, etc.) and/or where their ancestors are from. And when you talk about those groups from different areas who look kind of different, you're talking about Ethinic groups. So are you saying because there are different Ethinc groups in a Race, Race is irrelevant? Just wondering...

...

The problem with the biological race concept is that it attempts to reduce human variation to a small set of racial 'boxes' into which more-or-less all humans are expected to fit. It's a shoe-horning exercise of the crudest kind. Once you divide humans into races you can more easily pursue racist agendas even though the whole thing is essentially a fiction. Modern science says there are no races in humans because human variation is too complex, is too clinal and is not co-terminous. In short, while there is plenty of human geographic variation it's very messy and all attempts to reduce that messiness to a neat system of races does a serious injustice to the facts.

Here's a short paper from Nature explaining why biological race taxonomies aren't applicable to humans:

[JFB.anon]

Ok, that's fucking bullshit. Blacks are poor because they throw themselves at the mercy of whites rather than economically segregating. "Throwing themselves at white people" equals relying on capitalist wage slavers rather than starting starting businesses, economically participating in black businesses, valuing education more so their labor is more valuable*, making sure rich blacks redistribute wealth to poor blacks, making sure blacks spend any money they have on black businesses, etc.

The reason why us blacks haven't done this is because we think of ourselves as a race of individuals, not an ethnicity that needs to rely on one another.

*This is an decadence thing, not a black thing; people in poor nations across the world obsess over education - black or white.

[JFB.anon]

And as a black person, Thomas Sowell is the biggest racist jackass on fucking planet earth.

Also, how many fucking blacks are on welfare? Ask that disingenuous asshole that.

[Oswy]

Ok, that's fucking bullshit. Blacks are poor because they throw themselves at the mercy of whites rather than economically segregating. "Throwing themselves at white people" equals relying on capitalist wage slavers rather than starting starting businesses, economically participating in black businesses, valuing education more so their labor is more valuable*, making sure rich blacks redistribute wealth to poor blacks, making sure blacks spend any money they have on black businesses, etc.

The reason why us blacks haven't done this is because we think of ourselves as a race of individuals, not an ethnicity that needs to rely on one another.

*This is an decadence thing, not a black thing; people in poor nations across the world obsess over education - black or white.

Social class rules all. Rich blacks are above all rich people, i.e. their status in the capitalist class by far stands above (even if it does not erase) their status as black. Likewise poor black and white (or poor of whatever ethnic origins) need to recognise that their common condition of alienation and/or exploitation is what counts, not the false divisions which only help weaken their otherwise collective potential.

[Zealot]

I agree with some of what he says but he fails to understand how post-colonial economic conditions, social stigmas and capitalism plays a part in the shaping of their current culture, which he explains away by making culture into some inherent abstract condition of particular races.

[EvilRedGuy]

Color, Ethnicity, Sexual orientation, Gender, Personal spiritual belief, all diferences etc, dosen't matter. Wealth, Standard of living, and Class matters. Poor, from the same class should fight together against the rich upperclasses, if they get attacked they should become the attackers. Violence is okay if its self-defense, And it surely is when you are exploited and murdered of generations, decades.


TL;DR: Differences doesn't matter, except when its the exploited versus the exploiters.

[Ezekiel101]

This is just me being weird, but he has a point and you have a point. He is correct, sorta, in the belief that the culture causes a lot of these stereotypes. Yes asian cultures tend to study more, and yes african americans tend to be more inclined to sports and crime. However, it is racist for him to assume that this is due to race or genetics.
In my understanding, asian cultures have developed this "study psychopath" stereotype because their education systems are far more developed and intensive than most Western education systems are. *coff No Child Left Behind coff* This is not due to any racial disposition, but because these countries are adapting in a way that is preferable to their interests in world politics. This has led to few more awards for their students in international competition, and outsourcing. These events, most of them isolated, are what gave rise to this stereotypical garbage about Asia. All countries are trying to do the same with their education systems, some successfully, like Japan, and some not so successfully, like America.
The reason that "black" culture, as he so politically correctly says, is inclined to sports and crime is the years of white prejudice. A great percentage of african-americans still probably live in the urban neighborhoods and "ghettos" that white people have socially relegated them to. Their urban schools, with greater amounts of students and ethnically diverse backgrounds, were, and probably still are, sub-par compared to the suburban schools that most caucasians are able to go to, due to stretched funding. They probably play sports more because some of them might do badly in school, due to psychological factors like these stereotypes. Unconsciously, they might believe the cruel things that others say to them. This might cause them to unconsciously support these stereotypes.
What I said here, I probably screwed up big time. I mean no offense to either of these ethnic groups, or any other. I do not believe that any culture is superior to another. I believe that this cruel bigotry needs to stop, and that is why I posted to this thread. Please accept my apologies, those of you who have been offended by this. Unless you are racist, then all offense intended.

[Firebrand]

There is infinate variation between human beings. Every one of us is different in so many ways that the differences are meaningless and all that matters is our common humanity and interests. The only difference that ever matters between people is which one has their boot on the other's neck, because if one person has their boot on the other's neck their interests are irreconcilably different. The interests of all those living under the boot are the same, to get rid of the boots and the boot wearers. The interests of the boot wearers often clash over who gets the most necks to put their boots on. That makes them weak, and they know that if they allow the exploited to unite when the exploiters cannot, the exploiters will be overthrown so they invent differences and distingtions to confuse the exploited to fight among themselves so that they cant take advantage of the boot wearers squabbles.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Class analysis might achieve some clarity on this set of highly-charged issues. I live in a major American east coast city (Baltimore, Maryland) and find that sports is a passion with both white and black folks of various social classes. It seems like an essentially harmless pastime in which I must confess that I sometimes indulge. "Thug culture" OTOH is a very pernicious and demoralizing phenomena, but IMO it would be a mistake to apply a racial analysis to it as a majority of African-Americans reject it and unfortunately some young white buy into it.

"Thug culture" is both lumpen proletarian and petit-bourgeois in its class nature as it glorifies individualistic, often criminal, enterprise as the path of class ascendance. It appears to be glamorous, radical, even revolutionary, on its surface, yet is a path to oblivion. Thug culture beguiles proletarian and lumpen youth with the possibility of riches, yet preaches a combination of petit-bourgeois individualism with lumpen criminality, and analyzes things through and lens of individualism rather than class action.