Whats Make YOU American

[RBG Soldier]

Peace Comrades,

What makes one American? This is something I had a discussion with a brother about. He called my African American and I corrected him, by stating I'm a African in America but I'm far from American. He say being born in America makes one American. Well I don't want to get into detail about the conversation but wanted to know if any comrades see themselves as American whether it's Mexican American, Chinease American.Afro-American or just American. If so what makes you American? And why?

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Would it matter?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Literally speaking, your brother is correct. Being born in, or living long-term in, the United States makes you an American. I am an American, as I recognize that I have lived here my whole life. Your environment shapes who you are, and my environment is the United States. That is not to say that I do not aspire to transcend my national status and be a citizen of the world...

[Tevya The Dairyman]

Just remember, there isn't a thing called "pure american".
America was the land of immigrates this pasts hundred of years, wheather the immigrates from Europe, the slaves and immigrates from Africa, or even the Indians whose origin is from East-Asia. The only true and pure americans were the settlers in South-America, who by now mixed up with the workers who was brought up fron Spain, since th 16th centuary.

But! The true question! can I call myself an Israelian, since I was born and lived there?, and yet my grandparents are from Europe...

[Marxist in Nebraska]

There is not a purely "American" culture, that is true...

But there is a fairly consistent culture in this country.

The culture is quite English, but also has distinct differences. There is an affinity for individual rights and freedoms. The culture is largely confrontational. Such things are not unique to the United States, to be sure, but the combination is unique.

[Hampton]

"Well, I am one who doesn't believe in deluding myself. I'm not going to sit at your table and watch you eat, with nothing on my plate, and call myself a diner. Sitting at the table doesn't make you a diner, unless you eat some of what's on that plate. Being here in America doesn't make you an American. Being born here in America doesn't make you an American. Why, if birth made you American, you wouldn't need any legislation, you wouldn't need any amendments to the Constitution, you wouldn't be faced with civil-rights filibustering in Washington, D.C., right now.... "

El Haj Malik El Shabazz

;)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I do not honestly think anyone in the ruling class gives half a fuck about me simply because we are both Americans. I am an American, in that I was born and raised here and the culture has rubbed off on me.

Politically, I do not count because I do not have massive amounts of money. There is not so much a democracy here as a plutocracy.

That does not mean, though, that I am not an American. I do not use it as a badge of honor, or as a delusion that I am in the same boat with George Bush and Bill Gates. I am only using it as a marker of my background and culture.

[SonofRage]

Nationalistic labels are unimportant. If you were born here or became a citizen, you are an American. As for this "I'm a African in America" business, don't let "race" be a divider. The important issue is class. The only color the ruling class care about is green (and I'm not talking Nader here).

[Mazzen]

MiN...He's not talking about his brother per se. Not in the aspect you're thinking. That cracked me up. :lol: I would also disagree w/ saying that our culture is quite English. I think the best word to describe our culture is western. I am an american for the same reasons that, I believe, someone has already pointed out. I was born here, I was raised here, and I am full of american culture. I'm not proud that our country is such a piece of shit concerning the government and economy...not to mention our class society...nevertheless...I'm american.

[EneME]

Seriously I have no idea what I am LOL

I consider myself very Salvadoran b/c I was born there, grew up a little there, I have strong attachments there emotionally since I've gone back so many times and even when I immigrated to the USA, in my house we lived as Salvadorans. But, at the same time I grew up in America...I speak english like an American, I have alot of the American culture, and obviously I relate to more Americans my age than Salvadorans my age.

But, at the same time I dont feel accepted in the USA nor in El Salvador, I'm not American enuf nor am I Salvadoran enuf.....so basically I'm always back and forth...it's pretty shitty cuz u never really feel fulfilled anywhere...

Okay sorry vented a lil frustration there lol :D

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 1 2003, 02:26 AM
Literally speaking, your brother is correct. Being born in, or living long-term in, the United States makes you an American. I am an American, as I recognize that I have lived here my whole life. Your environment shapes who you are, and my environment is the United States. That is not to say that I do not aspire to transcend my national status and be a citizen of the world...
I disagree. Ive lived in the US the majority of my life and I most-certainly don't consider myself an American. I think it is a matter of opinion in terms of somebody's culture and how much they identify with it. For instance, some Nisei (sons/daughters of Japanese immigrants) consider themselves Japanese while some consider themselves American. In the same way there are African-"Americans" who consider themselves African and some who consider themselves American, European-"Americans" who consider themselves European and some who consider themselves American, etc.

I am Argentinian as I was born in Argentina and raised in a typically "Argentinian" environment. I also consider myself somewhat Spanish and Italian as I am a descendant of people from those countries and have certain cultural elements from them.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 02:19 PM
MiN...He's not talking about his brother per se. Not in the aspect you're thinking.

[...]
I would also disagree w/ saying that our culture is quite English. I think the best word to describe our culture is western.
I know what he meant by brother. I simply continued to use the word he used. I could have said friend or comrade, but maybe RBG does not consider his associate to be either...

The U.S. is definitely western. But the U.S. is certainly much more English than it is French, Spanish, etc. For example, look at what is considered acceptable human contact. In many parts of Western Europe (France, I know for certain), it is custom for people to kiss in greeting. Even if the individuals are the same gender, there is no homosexual connotations. The U.S. has adopted the English standard of what is called "cold culture", where many of us will greet with a handshake. In that form of greeting, we are still standing a couple of feet apart.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by El [email protected] 31 2003, 03:17 PM
Ive lived in the US the majority of my life and I most-certainly don't consider myself an American. I think it is a matter of opinion in terms of somebody's culture and how much they identify with it. For instance, some Nisei (sons/daughters of Japanese immigrants) consider themselves Japanese while some consider themselves American. In the same way there are African-"Americans" who consider themselves African and some who consider themselves American, European-"Americans" who consider themselves European and some who consider themselves American, etc.

I am Argentinian as I was born in Argentina and raised in a typically "Argentinian" environment. I also consider myself somewhat Spanish and Italian as I am a descendant of people from those countries and have certain cultural elements from them.
Brujo,

Has living in the States affected your mind? Has it molded the way you think in any way? If so, then you are American to a certain extent.

Your line about "matter of opinion" is not necessarily correct. You are affected, at least in very subtle ways, by your environment. One's personal identity can make a difference in HOW MUCH an environment will affect you.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Well, I'd have to say that I am pretty much a citizen of the world. I am staunchly anti-western/american, and feel that nationalistic attempts to label us is just a capitalist ploy to keep workers divided on false pretences.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Lo Midnight Marauder, me ist CCCP. had a small name change.

But nice comment tough.

It really doesn't matter to me which bourgeousie claims me as their slave.

[RBG Soldier]

Well, I'd have to say that I am pretty much a citizen of the world. I am staunchly anti-western/american, and feel that nationalistic attempts to label us is just a capitalist ploy to keep workers divided on false pretences. -MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr

This is a great statement but when I say I'm a Afrikan I'm not trying to divide myself from anyone at all. This is who I am, my name isn't american nor of the english language. So let me ask you (general question to anyone who wants to answer) if you think being born here makes you American. Then what if you are from a spanish background and your born in China? Are you Spanish-Chinease. I see like this America wants to make the world American. Globalization isnt just about business. Everything this country does they makes sure they drills it into the minds of it's citzens. America was a country stolen. The original name of the America's wasn't America but the Turtle Island. So truthfully what makes one american?

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 1 2003, 05:42 AM
Brujo,

Has living in the States affected your mind? Has it molded the way you think in any way? If so, then you are American to a certain extent.


Hm. Not quite sure what you mean by that. If by "America molding the way I think" you mean developing "American values," you know the answer to that. Now obviously, I see the world in a different way than I would if I would have grown up in a cardboard box in Cambodia but as I don't think like a "mainstream American" and even if I did, there is a lot of cultural assymilation going on in the world (particularly in Europe and South America), it is debatable weather I would have developed the same way growing up in another western country or in Latin America. For one thing, I have a lot more in common with my cousin in Spain than my cousins here.

But, unless I live more than one life, I can never know for sure.


Your line about "matter of opinion" is not necessarily correct. You are affected, at least in very subtle ways, by your environment. One's personal identity can make a difference in HOW MUCH an environment will affect you.

Exactly, that's why what somebody consideres themselves is a matter of opinion. It is impossible to put ethnic labels on anyone. If everyone living in America is an American, that includes even the most recent immigrants and if being an American means having originated here, than there are no Americans (and then it can also be argued that Native Americans are actually Siberians, Irish are actually Austrians, Romany's are actually Indians, etc.).

Let's look at Spain for instance, there are people in Basque or Catalan territories that consider themselves Basque or Catalan and there are people who consider themselves Spanish. There are some people who will argue that Spain isn't even a nation and that if they live in "Spanish"-speaking area, they are Castillians.

There will always be arguments on what nation people belong to so I think the individuals should decide according to their loyalties.

[marxstudent]

I'm a Chinese American because I'm Chinese. I know, to a degree, of my heritage. I don't think most Caucasian Americans know much, if anything, of theirs.

[Sabocat]

I'm not an American citizen.....I'm a political prisoner ;)

[canikickit]

Most of the people who live in the US are American. All this Mexican-American, Irish-American, Spanish-American stuff is rubbish, and it's about time you steenking yankees learned this.

But seriously, the label isn't particularily important, but the majority of people from America who stick a hyphen (or perhaps avoid the hyphen and the "American" part altogether) into their nationality who I have met come across as typical "Americans". For some reason everyone always takes that to be a bad thing, but it's not, there's nothing wrong with being American.

The culture of the United States is very distinct, it is a hodge-podge of other cultures, all with their own little strange American pop-culture spin on them.

[redstar2000]

Tough question.

One way to answer it would be to ask yourself: suppose someone from another country happened to meet you someplace outside of the U.S.--would they be able to tell that you're "American"?

Opposed to that is the "subjective"...do you yourself "feel" like an "American"?

I think a non-American would be able to nail me in about three seconds...I have that "generic American" look.

On the other hand, I've felt no sense of emotional attachment or identification with America for many decades...any kind of praise for anything American is repugnant to me even if it's "justified".

My "problem" is that there is no "nationality" that I can really identify with or feel any kind of special emotional attachment for. There are "cultural artifacts" that I've picked up from here and there...including America. But there's no place I can really call "home" with the strong feelings that others express.

One of the earliest things that Marx wrote that "resonated" with my own outlook was "the working class has no country".

I've felt that way since I was 15!

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I'm from Brazil and I haven't lived there for 10 years and now I live in America where i wasn't born. I hate the popular American mentality. I hatemost aspects of American culture. I hate American politics. I hate the basic principles of American government. I look up more to the popular Brazilian mindset, but deffinitely can't identify with it. So I certainly can say that i don't identify with any nationality in particular. My loyalties lie stricly with the international proletariat.

I do, however, find America physicaly stunning and absolutely beautiful.
The trees that turn in the fall. The snowcapped mountains. The unique animal life. The sunny shores with its unique plant life . The architecture. The people. The women.
If only it was all communist. :(

[PS]

What America you all talking about?????????? South America or North America


You all talking about america like America would be just Unided States. i'm from Bolivia ( South America) and I'm consider a American, but not a North American(not a U$A)

[SonofRage]

I actually tend to feel more loyalty to my city and state than to my country. I feel pride in New York City :D

[RBG Soldier]

PS You ask a great question. I mean what makes you Amerikkkan whether it's North Amerikkkan?Thats if you even think of yourself as a Amerikkan. See simply just being born in United Snakes of Aryans (U.S.A) don't make me a Amerikkkan because the intent of this country was never to make black people citzens. The Civil Rights movement and all the other bullshit laws they made to justified to kill black people or keep us from taking part in the political situation in this country shows that ain't shit about me Amerikkkan. What I am like Malcolm x said I'm a victim of Amerikkanism, but not an Amerikkkan.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by El [email protected] 31 2003, 06:03 PM
but as I don't think like a "mainstream American" and even if I did, there is a lot of cultural assymilation going on in the world (particularly in Europe and South America), it is debatable weather I would have developed the same way growing up in another western country or in Latin America. For one thing, I have a lot more in common with my cousin in Spain than my cousins here.

But, unless I live more than one life, I can never know for sure.

It is impossible to put ethnic labels on anyone. If everyone living in America is an American, that includes even the most recent immigrants and if being an American means having originated here, than there are no Americans

Let's look at Spain for instance, there are people in Basque or Catalan territories that consider themselves Basque or Catalan and there are people who consider themselves Spanish. There are some people who will argue that Spain isn't even a nation and that if they live in "Spanish"-speaking area, they are Castillians.

There will always be arguments on what nation people belong to so I think the individuals should decide according to their loyalties.
Great thread we have here, I must say...

"Now obviously, I see the world in a different way than I would if I would have grown up in a cardboard box in Cambodia"

Exactly. That is my point.

You have probably been influenced at least sub-consciously by the mainstream here. It is clear that the influence has not had its desired effect on you, but that is not to say the mainstream has not reached you. The American culture is spreading throughout the world, but being here in the U.S. can serve to immerse one more fully and certainly much quicker.

Realize that I am not trying to label anyone, nor am I assigning ethnic or national dividers. I am simply trying to say that our environment, the surrounding culture, affects how we think about certain things. So, identifying our national/cultural background can help others to understand why we think the way we do.

It is true that recent immigrants are less American in cultural terms. Adult immigrants may never take on many American cultural attributes. That is not to say that the move to the U.S., and living here now does not have any effect.

Your story about Spain is interesting. It is important to remember that culture is not homogenous. Not only is there not necessarily one culture, but the multiple cultures can certainly be in conflict. Case in point: pro-science Americans versus superstitious "Christian" fundamentalists. Thus, we have phrases like "dominant culture."

[Elect Marx]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 07:44 PM
I'm not an American citizen.....I'm a political prisoner ;)
Too many good points on this thread :) I have American "citizenship" because I was born here but citizenship is a fucade, in this plutocracy, only the ruling class has true citizenship. Democracy my ass! As I have no significant political rights, I agree with comrade Disgustapated. I am an American as I live here but in no other way, I am not part of a community, just a relatively small circle of people I assosiate with. If I leave America I am in no way American. This goes for any country with an oppressive capitalistic system. Any other counrties, I would be happy to live in, as a part of the resistance but still no sort of nationalistic pride just solidarity with my working class brothers and sisters.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 08:54 PM
One way to answer it would be to ask yourself: suppose someone from another country happened to meet you someplace outside of the U.S.--would they be able to tell that you're "American"?

[...]
I think a non-American would be able to nail me in about three seconds...I have that "generic American" look.

On the other hand, I've felt no sense of emotional attachment or identification with America for many decades...any kind of praise for anything American is repugnant to me even if it's "justified".

My "problem" is that there is no "nationality" that I can really identify with or feel any kind of special emotional attachment for. There are "cultural artifacts" that I've picked up from here and there...including America. But there's no place I can really call "home" with the strong feelings that others express.

One of the earliest things that Marx wrote that "resonated" with my own outlook was "the working class has no country".

I've felt that way since I was 15!
I have to echo much of what rs2k wrote in his post above...

A few quick corrections (to make it fit for me):

1) He has felt no national pride for decades--for me, only a couple of years (I am only 19, and I was not born a communist)

2) I understand and agree with the part about "cultural artifacts." The difference is, I have only picked up American attributes or perhaps things brought over by now-semi-assimilated immigrants. I have not traveled the world--perhaps rs2k has, but I have never been able to escape Nebraska.

3) He says he has felt his lack of national pride since the age of 15. I was a couple of years older than that when I outgrew mine. Forgive me for my lateness... again, this is Nebraska.

"any kind of praise for anything American is repugnant to me even if it's 'justified'."

I feel the same way. Even if the praise is well-meaning, it can be misdirected or become "rant material" for a love-it-or-leave-it type jingoist (I have to cringe anytime I think of a jingoist getting a new argument).

[canikickit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 02:54 AM
b]any kind of praise for anything American is repugnant to me even if it's "justified". [/b]
But how the hell do you define something as "American"? Is music recorded in the US and produced by an American, American? It is to me.

Surely you don't find praise for Jimi Hendrix repugnant?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

cani,

Those who praise Jimi Hendrix do not generally praise him for being American, or praise the United States for "making him." Because of this, I am not bothered by praise for him.

[redstar2000]

Cani, what would grate on me would be praise of a musician as "a great American musician".

It would imply that there is something really wonderful about America that it "produced" such a great musician.

In fact, the musician was "produced" by her/his parents, influenced by the music s/he heard growing up (made by other individuals), etc.

America, in the abstract, had nothing to do with it...so dragging in the nationality can only be a ploy to implicitly "praise America".

And I hate that.

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A site about communist ideas

[(*]

What about cherry pie?


Anyways,

I'm a citizen of the world. I don't identify with any country. My mind defines who I am.

[marxstudent]

It's not that race is dividing us, it is that we still acknowledge our heritage.

And Jimmy Hendrix was American because America helped to provide for what he had to get his success- just like his music and his parents.

[canikickit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 05:35 PM
And Jimmy Hendrix was American because America helped to provide for what he had to get his success- just like his music and his parents.
Jimi was American because he was born and raised there. America didn't provide all for him, particularily considering he lived in England during his most creative phase.

[Alejandro C]

Jack Kerouac is a great american writer.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by canikickit+Nov 4 2003, 11:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (canikickit @ Nov 4 2003, 11:58 AM)
[email protected] 4 2003, 05:35 PM
And Jimmy Hendrix was American because America helped to provide for what he had to get his success- just like his music and his parents.
Jimi was American because he was born and raised there. America didn&#39;t provide for him, particularily considering he lived in England during his most creative phase. [/b]
I would agree with marxstudent&#39;s assertion of "America helped to provide for what [Jimi Hendrix] had to get his success" as far as shaping him pyschologically to an extent. I also credit cani for recognizing that Jimi is also "English" to an extent because of his experiences there.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 4 2003, 11:58 AM
Jack Kerouac is a great american writer.
OK... I have not read his work. Why do you say he is a "great American writer"? (My emphasis)

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 09:18 PM
Cani, what would grate on me would be praise of a musician as "a great American musician".

It would imply that there is something really wonderful about America that it "produced" such a great musician.

In fact, the musician was "produced" by her/his parents, influenced by the music s/he heard growing up (made by other individuals), etc.

America, in the abstract, had nothing to do with it...so dragging in the nationality can only be a ploy to implicitly "praise America".

And I hate that.
that is why i said Jack kerouac was a great american writer. He hitchhiked in what he called the great triangle- newyork to san francisco to mexico city- several times. on the way he fell in love with the people. there are wonderful people who are in this country. kerouac found many of them and they are the main thrust of many of his writings especially- on the road, dharma bums, the town and the city, visions of cody, the subterraneans. his writings were shaped by his young life in america during the 50&#39;s. there IS something wonderful about america that produced this writer. or maybe i should say there was. none the less, Jack Kerouac was a great american writer.
MIN i would suggest you read On the road or the Dharma bums if you want to get a really good feel for kerouacs genious.

[Sabocat]

Steinbeck was a great writer as well. He also lived in the U.&#036;. I don&#39;t consider him a "great american writer". I consider him a great writer period. He would have been equally great a writer in my opinion if he lived in Europe.

Hemingway was a great writer that happened to be american. I bet that Hemingway considered himself a citizen of the world. He spent as much time abroad as home.

They both wrote about things and people around them. Just because they happened to be around "americans", I don&#39;t think has any bearing on their writing abilities. A great writer is a gift to the world. Nationality means nothing.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Would Steinbeck have been the same writer had he been from Europe? Would he still have been great? Probably, but would he have been exactly the same?

"Just because they happened to be around &#39;americans&#39;, I don&#39;t think has any bearing on their writing abilities."

Great authors will be great authors no matter what. But does being surrounded by Americans affect what your inspiration will be? Does it affect the characters in the book?

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 05:30 AM
Steinbeck was a great writer as well. He also lived in the U.&#036;. I don&#39;t consider him a "great american writer". I consider him a great writer period. He would have been equally great a writer in my opinion if he lived in Europe.

Hemingway was a great writer that happened to be american. I bet that Hemingway considered himself a citizen of the world. He spent as much time abroad as home.

They both wrote about things and people around them. Just because they happened to be around "americans", I don&#39;t think has any bearing on their writing abilities. A great writer is a gift to the world. Nationality means nothing.
suggesting that writing has nothing to do with a person&#39;s surroundings is incredibly niave.

i obviously was not saying that all great writers from america are &#39;great american writers&#39; i agree with you about stienbeck and hemingway. i was simply suggesting that there are some &#39;great american writers&#39; just as there are some great french writers or english writers ect. saying chenua achebe was a great nigerian writer or kerouac was a great american writer is simply saying that they were deeply influenced by their country and that their writings are primarily involved with their native people.

hell, hunter thompson is a great american writer and freely admits it. i know there are plenty of great writers from america that want nothing to do with this country, like henry miller, but jesus hated bald pussy and america has PRODUCED some incredibly talented writers.

[Sabocat]

suggesting that writing has nothing to do with a person&#39;s surroundings is incredibly niave.


Actually, I was suggesting that no matter where they lived, they would have been great writers. I don&#39;t think the american experience necessarily had anything to do with their writing ability.

Thompson, Stienbeck, Hemingway are great writers that just happen to be americans in my opinion.

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2003, 03:32 PM

suggesting that writing has nothing to do with a person&#39;s surroundings is incredibly niave.


Actually, I was suggesting that no matter where they lived, they would have been great writers. I don&#39;t think the american experience necessarily had anything to do with their writing ability.

Thompson, Stienbeck, Hemingway are great writers that just happen to be americans in my opinion.
sorry, i misinterpreted. ok i&#39;ll agree that location doesn&#39;t have anything to do with ability. but as far as inspiration.... thompsons search and recognition of the death of the american dream is at the heart of everything i&#39;ve ever read of his (except rum diary). i&#39;d argue that kerouacs muse was america itself. without america would he have been a great writer-yes. but would he have written? .... maybe not.