Maoism Third Worldism?

[tir1944]

What exactly is Maoism Third Worldism and what do you think of it?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

From what I know of it it is a theory which says that the advanced,industrial nations are unable to carry out proletarian revolutions so it is up to the third world to do so thereby surrounding the imperialist nations,gradually forcing pressure on them.There is also a component which says something about deporting millions of first worlders to live in the third world so they know how it feels and for them to gain experience...or something.

Someone else here could tell it much better than I,but those are the highlights I believe.Needless to say it is bullshit.

Here is a link to an older thread on the subject: http://www.revleft.com/vb/maoism-third-worldism-t135661/index.html

[Искра]

I think that their own videos talk for themselves, so I don't need to say noting against them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28AI_KAamMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JykCv7IHUc8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS43ur1RI7M

But basically, they are bunch of idiots who think that workers of the "first world" are labour aristocracy.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

MTW essentially believes in the "labor aristocrat" theory. The working classes of the developed world are highly privileged and are complicit in exploitation of the Third World.They take some ideas from Lenin's theory of imperialism but carry this to extreme conclusions. They openly have contempt for Western working classes.The main MTW group today is the "Leading Light Communist Organization" which openly advocates the "Plan de San Diego" calling for the summary execution of white males in the US and advocates mass rape.

http://lossanpatricios.wordpress.com/our-program/

http://bermudaradical.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/on-maoism-third-worldism/

http://www.youtube.com/user/shubelmorgan#p/u/39/u68hvTGyYvY

The original MTW group was MIM, the Maoist International Movement, more or less led by a Korean-American, Henry Park.This group had some interesting film reviews but otherwise was plum crazy. They believed that under patriarchy, "all sex is rape" and they were known for their eccentric spelling style (America was "eichmerikkka" Canada "kkklanadia", etc).They seem to have broken up around 20008 (Park specifically blamed RevLeft for destroying MIM)

MIM gave rise to the MTW forum "It's Right To Rebel". This led to a few websites and groupsecules which became the LLCO. The other MTW group is Monkey Smashes Heaven. MSH is known for sexual puritanism (westerners buy their hedonistic sexual pleasures at the expense of Third World peasants) and many neo-Maoist youtube videos.MSH seems to have been absorbed into LLCO but its hard to tell.

[scarletghoul]

This group had some interesting film reviews but otherwise was plum crazy. I wouldn't use the word 'otherwise', the film reviews are hilarious. my favourite is the shrek 2 review-

We only hope that there is a "Shrek 3," in which the newly-weds rampage through the rest of the society and culture. Otherwise the message will be that society has to be attacked just for the love of two people. Misguided people may watch this movie instead of doing something about the carnage in Iraq and when it comes their turn, they may lash out in violence "in the name of love." That's why there needs to be a "Shrek 3" in which the united workers of all species liberate themselves. http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/movies/long/shrek2.html

[scarletghoul]

Park specifically blamed RevLeft for destroying MIM
Really ?? never heard this before

[DarkPast]

It's a weird, contradictory ideology based on the glorification of third world peasantry and proletariat. It is hopelessly flawed because it looks exclusively at income to determine how "proletarian" someone is, and not the relations to the means of production or living costs. Instead, pretty much all the people living in the first world countries are supposed to be collectively exploiting those in the third world. :blink:

So by their stupid troll logic, first-world proletarians are not "real" proletarians. Labour unions are also anti-proletarian if they ask for wage increases (wage increases make you less proletarian by their logic). :rolleyes:

Ironically, few of them actually live in third world countries. Anyway, no one takes them seriously, so don't worry too much about them.

[Искра]

Did some of them wrote an article about Hoxha being bisexual and killing homosexuals because of that? I think I saw that article on a blog which one of the maoists had in his signature here... about 2 years ago?

[ProletarianResurrection]

MTW essentially believes in the "labor aristocrat" theory. The working classes of the developed world are highly privileged and are complicit in exploitation of the Third World.They take some ideas from Lenin's theory of imperialism but carry this to extreme conclusions. They openly have contempt for Western working classes.The main MTW group today is the "Leading Light Communist Organization" which openly advocates the "Plan de San Diego" calling for the summary execution of white males in the US and advocates mass rape.

MIM gave rise to the MTW forum "It's Right To Rebel". This led to a few websites and groupsecules which became the LLCO. The other MTW group is Monkey Smashes Heaven. MSH is known for sexual puritanism (westerners buy their hedonistic sexual pleasures at the expense of Third World peasants) and many neo-Maoist youtube videos.MSH seems to have been absorbed into LLCO but its hard to tell.

First thing I underlined, prove it. I have no time for them however lying about them or spreading lies without investigating things first is piggy wiggy behaviour.

Second thing I underlined; the sexual hedonism of the modern west is paid for by third world blood it could be argued as the safety net given liberates people from restrictive family structures, but saying that isnt sexual puritianism now is it?

I have little time for their fantasy of an immensely generous capitalist class that pays workers over and above the value it squeezes from them, but telling lies and slanders I have less time for.

[Искра]

Their videos rock:
http://youtu.be/jKbEaZ-Jnws

Hate Amerikkka....
Hating Amerikka is a good thing. (...) So, by all means hate Amerikkka!!!

Hahaha and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQGYpkxKZKI&feature=related

Clown Spotting!! :D

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Really ?? never heard this before



The role of the ***** stream at revleft.com is to express ambivalence about anti-Amerikanism and thus pave the way for Uncle $am's boldness in wooing the left-wing of parasitism. As it stands, the State Department knows this all better than revleft.com, because the State Department does polls by country too. There is now a whole book on how the State Department polled on anti- Amerikanism and systematically exploited ambivalences among the oppressed during the late Eisenhower administration, Yankee No! Anti-Americanism in U.S.-Latin American Relations.
The loyal patriots of revleft.com are in the business of denying the facts of Osama Bin Laden's popularity, because it hurts their feelings as imperialist country parasites and their lackeys. The imperialists in the State Department have to deal with reality more than revleft.com, an example of how much Karl Marx's scientific method has been obliterated by revleft.com.

Its hard to tell what he's talking about but this page seems to be an extended rant against RevLeft which Park believed to be the "left wing of capital" in league with his enemies, notably Mike Ely and "RCP=CIA".

http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/wim/wyl/socdem/revleftpatriotism0108.html

Henry Park died last year and his blog is down but there was a page where he specifically blamed criticisms on this forum for destroying MIM.

MIM, Park, and other "MTWs" were/are batshit crazy but I have had a morbid fascination with them.They are cool in the way that "Plan 9 From Outer Space" is cool.

[el_chavista]

So, Lenina, what is the MTW explanation of putting together Lin Biao and Jiang Qing if the first "actually lead the military suppression of the GPCR Left?"

http://bermudaradical.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/giant-floating-heads-mtw-money-stacks.png?w=322&h=161

[Lenina Rosenweg]

First thing I underlined, prove it. I have no time for them however lying about them or spreading lies without investigating things first is piggy wiggy behaviour.

Second thing I underlined; the sexual hedonism of the modern west is paid for by third world blood it could be argued as the safety net given liberates people from restrictive family structures, but saying that isnt sexual puritianism now is it?

I have little time for their fantasy of an immensely generous capitalist class that pays workers over and above the value it squeezes from them, but telling lies and slanders I have less time for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad1jkc9FraM

http://www.youtube.com/user/MaoismLinBiaoism#p/a/u/2/gkQmyCCNn_8

LLCO support "JDPON" the "Joint Dictatorship of Proletarian Oppressed Nations", a somewhat warped version of one of Lin Biao's ideas, as well as the "Revolutionary Plan de San Diego". On an earlier version of their website they explained the need for "mass population transfers" from North America. They expressed admiration for Soviet policies towards German speaking areas occupied after WWII, that is mass population transfer and mass rape (admittedly they did not specifically advocate rape but that was strongly inferred).

The original Plan de San Diego called for the summary execution of all white males living in the area of the Mexican cession. I would enthusiastically support returning California, Arizona, New Mexico and especially Texas to Mexico but I don't see the need for mass killings.Bad karma and all that.

Last year a RevLefter, Kleber, and to a small extent myself spent much time goofing on the various LLCO groups, not a difficult feat. They were enraged by this and things got a bit scary. LLCO did tone their advocacy of genocide and its no longer on their site.You will have to take my word for this, they did advocate this.Perhaps LLCO 2.0 now is different.

As for puritanism, MSH had a page where they condemned "western hedonistic behavior" which they saw as being bought at the expense of oppressing Third World peasants. A while later they seemed to back away from this and tried to show that they weren't "a bunch of old prudes". Whatever.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

So, Lenina, what is the MTW explanation of putting together Lin Biao and Jiang Qing if the first "actually lead the military suppression of the GPCR Left?"

http://bermudaradical.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/giant-floating-heads-mtw-money-stacks.png?w=322&h=161

Not a lot about these people makes much sense. They regard themselves as Lin Biaoists, they follow Lin's idea of people's war. I don't know how they reconcile their support for Jiang Qing with the fact that Lin and Jiang despised each other..Possibly they see Lin and Jiang both as opponents to the capitalist roaders.

...and, sadly, Henry Park's mental illness prevented him from realizing the great theoretical breakthough of Leading Light Communism.

http://llco.org/henry-park-founder-of-mim-dies-weightier-than-mount-tai

[Apoi_Viitor]

They were enraged by this and things got a bit scary.

How so?

[Dogs On Acid]

Their videos fucking rock.

'nuff said

[Lenina Rosenweg]

One of the LLCO founders apparently did some hacking and found some very personal info on myself.(I'm careful about my online identity). There was some other stuff which I'd rather not say but things got a bit yicky.There was a death threat involving a friend of mine.Admittedly I brought this on myself. Fun is fun but I didn't see the need for a cyberwar.

They'll find out what's what when the real class uprising breaks out though out North America and the people occupying factories and workplaces laugh at their inanity.The MTW are like the Sparts, fun to goof on but not politically relevant.

[ProletarianResurrection]

You will have to take my word for this, they did advocate this.Perhaps LLCO 2.0 now is different.

As for puritanism, MSH had a page where they condemned "western hedonistic behavior" which they saw as being bought at the expense of oppressing Third World peasants. A while later they seemed to back away from this and tried to show that they weren't "a bunch of old prudes". Whatever.

I will take your word for this as much as I will take your word on Stalin or anything else, meaning I wont take your word on this and I would advise all comrades to do similar.

No they clarified their position, and there is sense to it.

[Commissar Rykov]

MIM was like snorting shit loads of cocaine then writing a manifesto while hating the entire First World because of some inane reason. It was a lot of fun to read because it was just plain batshit off the wall all around goatfuck of an ideology. It was about as analytical as licking windows though.

[Radix1944]

In Poland are Maoists Third Worldists too. They founded Kazimierz Mijal's Red Guard Organisation and they do nothing. They just write blog in Internet and claim that they are true communist, but they have alliance with fascist Falanga and they celebrate together March on Rome. I heard rumors that they spend money from LLCO for parties and alcohol.

[Robespierre Richard]

In Poland are Maoists Third Worldists too. They founded Kazimierz Mijal's Red Guard Organisation and they do nothing. They just write blog in Internet and claim that they are true communist, but they have alliance with fascist Falanga and they celebrate together March on Rome. I heard rumors that they spend money from LLCO for parties and alcohol.

In America they only make awful youtube videos and blog posts and troll tea party demonstrations. I can't believe that in other countries they are real people.


So, Lenina, what is the MTW explanation of putting together Lin Biao and Jiang Qing if the first "actually lead the military suppression of the GPCR Left?"

http://bermudaradical.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/giant-floating-heads-mtw-money-stacks.png?w=322&h=161

Come on MTW, it's not a clown car!

[Red Noob]

TWM sound like a bunch of border-line radicalized primitivists who think Communism is a lifestyle.

[Commissar Rykov]

TWM sound like a bunch of border-line radicalized primitivists who think Communism is a lifestyle.

Mostly it is snobby Petty-Bourgeois and Bourgeois Kids trying to be angsty and rebel against their parents. That all MTWs are First World Petit-Bourgeois and Bourgeois angst driven fools shows how useful the ideology is.

[Qayin]

The LLCO are fucking ridiculous, im pretty positive they are all petty-bourgeois teens from Colorado

[North Star]

M-TW is the failure of Maoism and wider socialist strategy in the West. They claim that that Western workers are not revolutionary and chauvinist yet they themselves are guilty of this because they are in effect sketching out an ideology for the those in the Third World to use. While it has taken hold among petty bourgeois kids, MIM was started by a group known as RADACADS which stood for "Radical Academics" again far removed from the working class of the Third World. MIM did not uphold Pol Pot or DPRK, but it seems that a MIM splinter known as the Rural People's Party http://ruralpeople.atspace.org/ supports not only Pol Pot and the DPRK but cult leader Jim Jones as well! They claim "revolutionary suicide" is sometimes a justified tactic. They even have a commune somewhere in South Carolina. They don't even hide their totalitarian inclinations, they call for: "The formation of and central party support of CHEKA-like instruments of the masses for the repression of counter-revolutionary elements, triumph of purity in the party and the masses & furtherance of revolutionary social change in accordance with the principled approach of militant Juche-style communism according to material conditions of this country and era." Quite possibly the creepiest left grouping since NATLFED. If you can even consider them on the left, they are arguably more reactionary then say a Fascist group that promotes technology IMO. Marxists don't talk about purity, we stand on the side of all of those bourgeois society deems "impure." Talking about purity is something fascists do.

[Qayin]

Rural People's Party
this blew my mind

What is NATLFED?

[Ismail]

What is NATLFED?A political cult. Just Google it. The Democratic Workers Party was a somewhat similar group.

Jim Jones was also a communist and some of his leftist followers thought that the Peoples Temple would somehow serve as a "vanguard"-type organization. Instead Jones went to Guyana and, being a cult leader, wasn't too fond of those who wanted to move to the USSR or Cuba. Even on the last day of Jonestown one of its members was like "is it too late for Russia?" and Jones is basically like "well we shot and killed a Congressman so I really don't think they'll take us now."

In regards to "Third Worldist" orgs, MIM actually wasn't that bad (and in the 80's and 90's had a small on-the-ground presence) when they weren't talking about how all American workers are exploiters or calling the USA "U$A." Their Harvard origins even allowed them to get the editor/translator of The Black Book of Communism to admit a mistake (http://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/agitation/blackbook/blackb3.html). When they dealt on historical subjects they were occasionally interesting. The LLCO, however, is totally lame and has no redeeming features.

The only people besides the so-called "Third Worldists" who actually espoused similar views to them were bourgeois nationalists like Mirza Sultan-Galiev and Ben Bella (who admired Tito and today associates with some French Trot group) in Algeria.


They claim "revolutionary suicide" is sometimes a justified tactic.It's fine the way Huey Newton applied it. The way Jim Jones appropriated and bastardized it, however, is not fine and is in fact profoundly lame and not at all communist. On a related note Newton's brother died in Jonestown.


totalitarianThis is still a lame word.


In Poland are Maoists Third Worldists too. They founded Kazimierz Mijal's Red Guard Organisation and they do nothing. They just write blog in Internet and claim that they are true communist, but they have alliance with fascist Falanga and they celebrate together March on Rome. I heard rumors that they spend money from LLCO for parties and alcohol.Enver Hoxha wrote in his diary on February 14, 1977 that, "This time, another obedient soldier has joined the revisionist line of the Communist Party of China. This is Kazimierz Michal, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Poland. Following Hill of Australia and Jurquet of France, another renegade from Marxism-Leninism has come out to attack the Marxist-Leninist theses of the 7th Congress of the Party of Labour of Albania. He sends us his criticisms in writing, in a letter, allegedly as decisions of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Poland with which he has not had any contact for seven or eight months. The letter purports to come from Warsaw, but Michal has not had any contact with Warsaw either... The Polish revisionist Michal has become a lackey of the Chinese. On the problems over which he attacks us and many other theses, he was and had proclaimed himself pro our theses and against the Communist Party of China. This is documented in minutes. Now he has changed his colours. Why on earth?" (Reflections on China Vol. II, p. 443.)

On November 22 of that same year he wrote, "Last evening Hsinhua gave long excerpts from a major hostile, revisionist article which Kazimierz Michal, who claims to be general secretary of the Communist Party of Poland, has sent to Peking through the Chinese embassy in Tirana. Without knowing anything about the past of this revisionist, we have supported him for years on end in the work which he did in the leadership of his Communist Party, have provided him with every political, ideological, moral and economic facility. However, it turned out that he is nothing but a renegade from Marxism-Leninism, a disguised enemy of the Party of Labour of Albania... In the letter which he sent us, he says that he is ready to make an alliance even with the devil himself provided only that he is against Soviet revisionism. Amongst other things he supports the thesis that a country, a people, or a party cannot have two main enemies, but only one, and the main enemy is the Soviet Union, and not the United States of America, as well. Therefore he, and allegedly his party, are ready to collaborate with the whole of reaction, even with the reaction of his own country, and world reaction, against Soviet imperialism. This is the thesis of the Chinese, the thesis of the 'third world', the thesis of 'relying on one imperialism to fight another imperialism'." (Ibid. pp. 708-709.)

[North Star]

Ismail, I understand why your ideological stance would make you cringe at the word "totalitarianism" but I think for what the RPP proposes, that would be the end result. Then again having a totalitarian structure in a rural society may be problematic since using the mass media to distribute propaganda could be impossible. I stand by its use in this context however.

Calling Sultan-Galiev a bourgeois nationalist is a simplistic answer. Did he have bad ideas? Yes and even Lenin was weary of some of his ideas. However, his conception was more in line with how Lenin viewed the nationalities question than Stalin did. As Lenin grew incapacitated and died, we see how Stalin turned his attention to marginalizing and arresting Sultan-Galiev.

[Ismail]

As Lenin grew incapacitated and died, we see how Stalin turned his attention to marginalizing and arresting Sultan-Galiev.Terry Martin notes in his work Affirmative Action Empire (p. 230) that:

A. Sultan-Galiev tried to ally with Trotsky against Stalin (Trotsky rejected him);
B. Sultan-Galiev had Basmachi ties.

The discovery of Basmachi ties occurred in April 1923 and he was arrested a month later. Not exactly a case of "evil Stalin using his dictatorial powers to exercise total control." Sultan-Galiev was clearly a rightist and his analysis was not class-based.

A good read on Sultan-Galiev can be found here: http://ml-review.ca/aml/MLRB/Sultan-Galiyev-FINAL.htm

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Interestingly the now defunct MIM group seemed to like Sultan-Galiev. Somewhere on their website is or was a somewhat wacky alt history scenatrio having Stalin and Sultan-Galiev carve out a seperate Eastern SU while Lenin runs the west. SG seemed to point towards Maoism in one direction and Natuonal Bolshevism (the originbal version) on the other.

[Ismail]

Interestingly the now defunct MIM group seemed to like Sultan-Galiev. Somewhere on their website is or was a somewhat wacky alt history scenatrio having Stalin and Sultan-Galiev care out a seperate Eastern SU while Lenin runs the west.Yeah, one of MIM's weirder moments. Then again this was the same group that insisted that "all sex is rape."

[North Star]

Yeah, one of MIM's weirder moments. Then again this was the same group that insisted that "all sex is rape."

And their support for Bin Laden!

Stalin needed not to be a dictator for marginalizing Sultan-Galiev. The emergence of Great Russian chauvinism in the Party allowed him to marginalize Sultan-Galiev. You claiming as such is instinctive ideological response typical of Marxist-Leninists. The Basmachi smear didn't stick. He was released after his arrest in 1923 anyway.

Look at what your AML articles says about how Sultan-Galiev came to be hounded:


On,9-12 June 1923, the 4th Conference of the Central Committee of the Russian Communist Party with Workers of the National Republics and Regions was held in Moscow:
"Convened on J. V. Stalin's initiative".
(Note to: Josef V. Stalin: 'Works', Volume 5; Moscow; 1953; p. 429).
With Stalin in the Chair, an important item on the agenda of the conference was 'the Sultan-Galiyev Case'. Sultan-Galiyev:
"was thoroughly vilified, accused of deviations and treason, and excluded from the Communist Party".
(A. Bennigsen & S. Enders Wimbush: op. cit.; p. 83).

Regardless of his power, Stalin led the charge.

Sultan-Galiev's oppositional tendencies existed because he feared Great Russian Chauvinism, which increasingly started manifesting itself. He was arrested over his comments at the XIIth Congress, not because of supposed Basmachi links. Do you deny that contradictions exist under the construction of socialism then? Especially in a multi-national state? I mentioned earlier that yes even Lenin was weary of some of Sultan-Galiev's ideas, but Lenin tolerated him and was always more nuanced then Stalin on things like nationality and religion. As we see Lenin says:


Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/may/13.htm

Quite different than the anti-religious Stalin supported in the late 1920's.

Rejection by Trotsky & Stalin does not automatically make one a renegade. Trotsky always had a left perspective on nationalism and Trotskyism always has tried to be as internationalist as possible. However if say they find accommodation within a movement that has a strong nationalist element like Bolivarianism, they will in fact shut up about their internationalism. As the
AML essay even points out:

'This was the first arrest of a prominent Party member upon the initiative of Stalin. Unfortunately Zinoviev and I gave our consent".
(Leon,Trotsky: 'Stalin': New York; 1941; p. 417).

My point was Sultan-Galiev despite his mistakes was tolerated in a more ideological diverse climate of the Bolsheviks prior to Lenin's death. As Lenin's power faded bureaucratism and Great Russian Chauvinism attempted to marginalize someone who though independently that tried to grapple with the Muslim question, a question that Stalin and certainly any of his successor never failed to provide an answer to.

[Ismail]

independently that tried to grapple with the Muslim question, a question that Stalin and certainly any of his successor never failed to provide an answer to.Hoxha provided an answer to it. First off he noted that any sort of "religious socialism" must be combated sternly as anti-Marxist and unscientific distortions of socialism. Second he noted that communists should never base their efforts around uniting people on religious grounds. Even Lenin in that quote you provided noted that all socialists, as a rule, are atheists.

Hoxha noted that contradictions do exist in the stage of socialist construction, but that they are the result of the capitalist mentality, of isolation from the masses, of idealist conceptions, and other problems which can only be rectified by Marxist-Leninist analysis and by the propagation of Marxism-Leninism in all fields, along with adopting a hostile attitude to bureaucratic attitudes and norms.

The anti-religious campaign of the late 20's wasn't aimed against personal faith. It was a question of inequality and of the oppression of women in Central Asia.

[Die Neue Zeit]

M-TW is the failure of Maoism and wider socialist strategy in the West. They claim that that Western workers are not revolutionary and chauvinist yet they themselves are guilty of this because they are in effect sketching out an ideology for the those in the Third World to use. While it has taken hold among petty bourgeois kids, MIM was started by a group known as RADACADS which stood for "Radical Academics" again far removed from the working class of the Third World. MIM did not uphold Pol Pot or DPRK, but it seems that a MIM splinter known as the Rural People's Party http://ruralpeople.atspace.org/ supports not only Pol Pot and the DPRK but cult leader Jim Jones as well! They claim "revolutionary suicide" is sometimes a justified tactic. They even have a commune somewhere in South Carolina. They don't even hide their totalitarian inclinations, they call for: "The formation of and central party support of CHEKA-like instruments of the masses for the repression of counter-revolutionary elements, triumph of purity in the party and the masses & furtherance of revolutionary social change in accordance with the principled approach of militant Juche-style communism according to material conditions of this country and era." Quite possibly the creepiest left grouping since NATLFED. If you can even consider them on the left, they are arguably more reactionary then say a Fascist group that promotes technology IMO. Marxists don't talk about purity, we stand on the side of all of those bourgeois society deems "impure." Talking about purity is something fascists do.

One of the other bad aspects of MTM is that it refuses to break with perceived "national bourgeois" forces and comprador elements amongst the Third World petit-bourgeoisie.

Also, MTM is economically based on classical political economy's Iron Law of Wages.

[North Star]

Hoxha provided an answer to it. First off he noted that any sort of "religious socialism" must be combated sternly as anti-Marxist and unscientific distortions of socialism. Second he noted that communists should never base their efforts around uniting people on religious grounds. Even Lenin in that quote you provided noted that all socialists, as a rule, are atheists.

Hoxha noted that contradictions do exist in the stage of socialist construction, but that they are the result of the capitalist mentality, of isolation from the masses, of idealist conceptions, and other problems which can only be rectified by Marxist-Leninist analysis and by the propagation of Marxism-Leninism in all fields, along with adopting a hostile attitude to bureaucratic attitudes and norms.

The anti-religious campaign of the late 20's wasn't aimed against personal faith. It was a question of inequality and of the oppression of women in Central Asia.

Lenin obviously supported the idea that a good active socialist needs to be an atheist, and I agree as well. The question is how to marginalize the influence of religion while building socialism. I think the methods used by Stalin and Hoxha were bureaucratic and repressive. Certainly reactionary cultural activities returned after the end of the Eastern Bloc, but Albanians are not particularly religious now though, but that doesn't stop widespread subjugation of women or blood feuds there. Overcoming these things was always going to be dependent on development and persuasion. Let's face the fact that through development the West has eliminated or significantly curtailed many reactionary social practices. Yes they are not all gone but they are not as serious issues anymore. Obviously the Churches and Mosques etc. should not receive funds or any special status but locking up religious leaders isn't going to win religious workers and peasants to socialism especially without significant economic development.

[Ismail]

Certainly reactionary cultural activities returned after the end of the Eastern Bloc, but Albanians are not particularly religious now though,Albanian nationalism in the 19th century was actually fairly hostile to organized religion. One of its foremost poets, Pashko Vasa, wrote a poem that went along the lines of "the priests and hoxhas ['Hoxha' means Islamic priest] all seek to fool you, the religion of the Albanains is Albanianism." Hoxha himself came from a nationalist family and his uncle turned him towards atheism at a young age. It is true that a far larger amount of Albanians today are agnostic now, though, since religious teachings were absolutely forbidden from 1967-1990.


but that doesn't stop widespread subjugation of women or blood feuds there.Both were significantly curbed until the collapse of socialism. They ballooned after that.

Evidently the Albanian method of extinguishing religion was heavy-handed and backfired in many ways. As a note Hoxha's recalled in his memoirs, With Stalin, a 1949 meeting with him on this subject:

"How many religious beliefs are there in Albania," Comrade Stalin inquired, "and what language is spoken?"

"In Albania," I replied, "there are three religions: Moslem, Orthodox and Catholic. The population which professes these three faiths is of the same nationality - Albanian, therefore the only language used is Albanian, with the exception of the Greek national minority which speak their mother tongue."

From time to time, while I was speaking, Stalin took out his pipe and filled it with tobacco. I noticed that he did not use any special tobacco, but took "Kazbek" cigarettes, tore them open, discarded the paper and filled his pipe with the tobacco. After listening to my answer, he said:

"You are a separate people, just like the Persians and the Arabs, who have the same religion as the Turks. Your ancestors existed before the Romans and the Turks. Religion has nothing to do with nationality and statehood."

And in the course of our conversation, he asked me:

"Do you eat pork, Comrade Enver?"

"Yes, I do!" I said.

"The Moslem religion prohibits this among its believers," he said. "This is an old, outdated custom. Nevertheless," he went on, "the question of religious beliefs must be kept well in mind, must be handled with great care, because the religious feelings of the people must not be offended. These feelings have been cultivated in the people for many centuries, and great patience is called for on this question, because the stand towards it is important for the compactness and unity of the people."

[North Star]

That was certainly not Stalin's line from the Soviet Cultural Revolution. Perhaps the Great Patriotic War mellowed his view towards religion. :D That's not to say there weren't excesses in the early 1920's either, but the official policy was moderated as the Civil War drew to a close. Certain local officials did go after religion with deadly zeal. The XVth Party Congress in 1929 did however have Stalin call for more effort in combatting religion. I guess Stalin would have condemned my as one of the Rightists in the Party who thought religion will die away. I don't see why a policy not unlike that of France or Turkey combined with significant socialist economic development can't chip away at religion. It's happening in developed capitalist nations.

[Ismail]

The XVth Party Congress in 1929 did however have Stalin call for more effort in combatting religion.Stalin's Works, Vol. 10 (which contains his speech to that congress, which was held in 1927 BTW), seems to have omitted the parts about religion. There is, however, in that same work a question and answer session on September 9 between Stalin and an American labor delegation in which religion is mentioned a bit, and in which Stalin basically says "we allow for freedom of conscience, but we also allow for freedom to oppose religion; we cannot be neutral on religion which is a tool of the exploiters, and religion is directly opposed to science as was evidenced by the Scopes Trial in your country."

The editors of Stalin's Works (Vol. 10 came out in Russian in 1949) probably wanted to downplay the more hardline anti-religious stuff Stalin said after the war. In Hoxha's Vepra (collected works) I'm fairly sure that the strongest words he had on religion were included, but in the 80's the Albanian Government and Hoxha himself didn't like the attention Albania was getting on the issue and, without reversing or modifying its policy on religion, did try to project a less hardened position abroad, with Hoxha saying that the state was atheistic by the "will of its people" and saying "we have not compelled, nor do we compel, anyone by administ-rative measures to renounce his religious views. Religion is a question of personal conscience." That didn't really happen in practice, but yeah.